Thread: Could Lucid Dreaming be a method for preparing for Death?

People mock up every aspect of their personalities and convince themselves that it is real.

Boy, does this ring truth.

- I have felt a similar sensation as you have described, as well. It is a wonderful state to be in, bliss really. Though I have felt close to death, imminent at times, I do not feel it dawning on me regularly. Certain experiences have given me the opportunity to contemplate death to a great extent, and what it may hold. How do I feel about it? Death in my opinion is going to be a wonderful experience, it's really the moment we've been ultimately been waiting for.. Running in this ever repeating cycle. However I do not fear death in itself, I fear the impact it leaves on friends and family. At some point one must come to the realization that in some cases, you cannot beat this pain suffered by the ones you've mutually loved. I guess at some other point, the person who acknowledges this, must become ignorant towards or, find a way to try and overcome it, to enjoy death to its fullest.

I also feel that yes, Lucid dreaming will aid us in the coming of the after life. We don't know what it holds, it may not actually be foreign to us, but consciously, we have absolutely no idea. Thus, the skills we have built with awareness, creation, and everything that follows, may very well help us. Well, I sure hope the skills learned aren't wasted efforts

to be aware that I'm dead and not see it as some kind of dream would best.

In my opinion it would be better to use experiences with OBE. Maybe it would be like that... leaving body... only not returning back as usually... that would be great when my time comes.

Originally Posted by JJFrank

I have been lucid dreaming for a long time, over 50 years, since I was a child. My experience of dreaming has changed, but moreso, my awareness of awakeness.

The experience of the world while awake, especially in the last 10 years, has appeared increasingly unreal and phantasmagorical. I am not diagnosed as abnormal psychologically and am a fully functional human being with a career and two kids in college, but honestly, most people are living their lives as if they are in a dream of their own making. I see human existence as a huge charade. People mock up every aspect of their personalities and convince themselves that it is real.

Now I feel that I am ready to die although I am only 58 years old. It does not scare me at all, in fact it is quite delightful. As I feel myself slipping into the dreamworld, I feel the false parts of my nature slip away and I flow into a pure state of pleasurable ecstatic energy. I switch into this state in seconds, even with my eyes open.

I would like to hear from people who have had similar experiences. Do you feel close to death? Does it feel delightful? Do you feel that it may be connected in some way to lucid proficiency?

JJ

Death itself, in my opinion, is not connected to lucidity anymore than you allow it to be. I also feel "close" to death, and have so for, in consideration of my short life thus far, a long time. I learned how to conquer fear years ago, and since it has been difficult to ever become emotionally riled up in anything anymore. If it happens, it runs its course and is very short lived, a result of knowing it is illogical but as a human I still suffer my fair share of shortcomings. If you try and ignore the giant pink elephant sitting next to you in the room, you give it control over you. You allow it to shape your perceptions around it, and even if you feel as though it has disappeared, it manifests itself in other ways. Now you can never know if the elephant will be back, you are always expecting it in the back of your mind, it eats at you and thrives on your anxiety. However, if you acknowledge the elephant, and ask yourself, "what is the elephant doing here?", "does it make me feel bad, scared, or mad?", "is it wrong or bad to feel scared, mad, or bad?". The resounding answer to the last question, once you have investigated enough within yourself, is "no". Then, the giant pink elephant is free to come and go, and if it causes you an grief (which more often than not it doesn't), you can handle it right then and there, with a clear mind and without hesitation born from fear. Eventually, anxiety and fear begin to dissipate as is the brain's natural reaction. When we recognize the pattern before us, when we are not presented with unfamiliar things, unknown factors, anxiety vanishes. The quest to distance yourself from that which made you feel bad in the end made you feel worse.

This is why I am close to death. I embrace the topic of its experience, whether there is anything afterward, what if there is/isn't, etc. Honestly I wouldn't feel right if I didn't die. The knowledge it will one day happen, the 100% certainty of it is almost calming--reassuring in a way. It's the only thing in my life I can ever do more than simply place faith in and hope for the best. It will happen, and when it does will be out of my control. I could choose to cause it prematurely, but to do so would be as unnatural as embracing a technology that will never allow you to die. That is not my choice, and neither is when I die.

Snoop,

Is the "pink elephant" a metaphor for death?

Since I feel I have attained some conscious control over dreaming and the maintenence of the illusion of personality, I would consider it irresponsible to NOT cntrol the experience of death. To me, that would be like not controlling what I eat of wat I watch on TV. I will definitely determine the time and method of my release from this body. Why wouldn't I? If not me, then what? Suffering terminal disease? Having others take care of my decrepit body with its senile mind?

JJ

Originally Posted by snoop

Death itself, in my opinion, is not connected to lucidity anymore than you allow it to be. I also feel "close" to death, and have so for, in consideration of my short life thus far, a long time. I learned how to conquer fear years ago, and since it has been difficult to ever become emotionally riled up in anything anymore. If it happens, it runs its course and is very short lived, a result of knowing it is illogical but as a human I still suffer my fair share of shortcomings. If you try and ignore the giant pink elephant sitting next to you in the room, you give it control over you. You allow it to shape your perceptions around it, and even if you feel as though it has disappeared, it manifests itself in other ways. Now you can never know if the elephant will be back, you are always expecting it in the back of your mind, it eats at you and thrives on your anxiety. However, if you acknowledge the elephant, and ask yourself, "what is the elephant doing here?", "does it make me feel bad, scared, or mad?", "is it wrong or bad to feel scared, mad, or bad?". The resounding answer to the last question, once you have investigated enough within yourself, is "no". Then, the giant pink elephant is free to come and go, and if it causes you an grief (which more often than not it doesn't), you can handle it right then and there, with a clear mind and without hesitation born from fear. Eventually, anxiety and fear begin to dissipate as is the brain's natural reaction. When we recognize the pattern before us, when we are not presented with unfamiliar things, unknown factors, anxiety vanishes. The quest to distance yourself from that which made you feel bad in the end made you feel worse.

This is why I am close to death. I embrace the topic of its experience, whether there is anything afterward, what if there is/isn't, etc. Honestly I wouldn't feel right if I didn't die. The knowledge it will one day happen, the 100% certainty of it is almost calming--reassuring in a way. It's the only thing in my life I can ever do more than simply place faith in and hope for the best. It will happen, and when it does will be out of my control. I could choose to cause it prematurely, but to do so would be as unnatural as embracing a technology that will never allow you to die. That is not my choice, and neither is when I die.

Psionik,

I am wondering if that is what is happening to me. If I am experiencing the release of death. That is what it feels like. All attachments to the world are gone. I am happy, resting in peace. It is beautiful. And yet I am also still appearing to be in a body. This is the part that does not seem real, although it also appears that you are reading the words I type.

JJ

Originally Posted by Psionik

to be aware that I'm dead and not see it as some kind of dream would best.

In my opinion it would be better to use experiences with OBE. Maybe it would be like that... leaving body... only not returning back as usually... that would be great when my time comes.

Validus,

Yes, it is quite blissful. I keep hoping that the release is final, and yet I keep finding myself back here in this body. I wonder if it is just the survial genes keeping the show going. Perhaps the body has been programmed to just keep going until it is forced to stop. I would like to go deeper into this state and see if there is some way to initiate release. Or perhaps there is some other purpose to my experience. I wish I knew.

JJ

Originally Posted by Validus

Boy, does this ring truth.

- I have felt a similar sensation as you have described, as well. It is a wonderful state to be in, bliss really. Though I have felt close to death, imminent at times, I do not feel it dawning on me regularly. Certain experiences have given me the opportunity to contemplate death to a great extent, and what it may hold. How do I feel about it? Death in my opinion is going to be a wonderful experience, it's really the moment we've been ultimately been waiting for.. Running in this ever repeating cycle. However I do not fear death in itself, I fear the impact it leaves on friends and family. At some point one must come to the realization that in some cases, you cannot beat this pain suffered by the ones you've mutually loved. I guess at some other point, the person who acknowledges this, must become ignorant towards or, find a way to try and overcome it, to enjoy death to its fullest.

I also feel that yes, Lucid dreaming will aid us in the coming of the after life. We don't know what it holds, it may not actually be foreign to us, but consciously, we have absolutely no idea. Thus, the skills we have built with awareness, creation, and everything that follows, may very well help us. Well, I sure hope the skills learned aren't wasted efforts

Originally Posted by JJFrank

My experience of dreaming has changed, but moreso, my awareness of awakeness.

The experience of the world while awake, especially in the last 10 years, has appeared increasingly unreal and phantasmagorical. I am not diagnosed as abnormal psychologically and am a fully functional human being with a career and two kids in college, but honestly, most people are living their lives as if they are in a dream of their own making. I see human existence as a huge charade. People mock up every aspect of their personalities and convince themselves that it is real.

That's because you have died while living. It could be "achieved" by different paths, of course lucid dreaming is one, but there are many others. It happened to me when I realized how I've been living in the common ego-state. Everything changed from drama to comedy exactly as you mention, but LDing started later without looking for it. Now I look at it backwards and I assume that being in the present moment during waking life helped to LD. I believe that at some point everything that raises awareness just blend together.
Death has a different meaning, I find it also delightful because everything you think you are (ego) dies and it's a blissful experience, being a full nothing...
I haven't felt that "pure state of pleasurable ecstatic energy", but I've read of people who have felt it by LDing, years of meditation or any other practice. I've been on this things for less than two years, what I've experienced is the becoming of everything, sometimes I can feel myself being a tree, a stone, being everything at the same time, which is why the meaning of death is completely different for me now.

Thanks, Kilham.

What you write resonates with my experience. I did a lot of work with a teacher who taught how to recognize ego games in oneself and others, and then how to disconnect the autoprogram. It takes diligence and perseverance, but yes, as the ego tricks that run the show in most people start to fall away, there is a vast openess that allows spectacular perceptions.

I sometimes feel how trees feel. Animals hear my thoughts and respond with their own. It feels crazy, but nobody sees me as crazy. People see me as normal, but I have been told that I seem only halfway in this world. That is how it feels. I think that people today can learn in a few years what it took me a few decades.

JJ

Originally Posted by kilham

That's because you have died while living. It could be "achieved" by different paths, of course lucid dreaming is one, but there are many others. It happened to me when I realized how I've been living in the common ego-state. Everything changed from drama to comedy exactly as you mention, but LDing started later without looking for it. Now I look at it backwards and I assume that being in the present moment during waking life helped to LD. I believe that at some point everything that raises awareness just blend together.
Death has a different meaning, I find it also delightful because everything you think you are (ego) dies and it's a blissful experience, being a full nothing...
I haven't felt that "pure state of pleasurable ecstatic energy", but I've read of people who have felt it by LDing, years of meditation or any other practice. I've been on this things for less than two years, what I've experienced is the becoming of everything, sometimes I can feel myself being a tree, a stone, being everything at the same time, which is why the meaning of death is completely different for me now.

Oh we are in the land of living, but it is like it is not as important as it used to be. There is self preservance, but there is also different point of view on life, much more relaxed. When I'm trying to explain this to some people they don't understand. I'm seemingly normal, and yet my view of this is for them as if I'm close to end my life.
Fear kills consciousnes... he who fears, dies all the time... he tries to live in future and he forget to live now, he is effectively dead.

The more strong feeling of existence, of being, of consciousnes, the more peacefull, magical, full... the life feels

Originally Posted by JJFrank

Psionik, I am wondering if that is what is happening to me. If I am experiencing the release of death. That is what it feels like. All attachments to the world are gone. I am happy, resting in peace. It is beautiful. And yet I am also still appearing to be in a body. This is the part that does not seem real, although it also appears that you are reading the words I type.

JJ

Yes, I agree. There is something in between being alive as most people experience and whatever is next. I don't know what it is that I am experiencing. But I am not being completely in this world and not being completely in whatever else there is. I found this painful and alienating at first. Now I find it blissfully peaceful and comforting.

A psychologist would say that I am delusional because they measure sanity by how well one conforms to the norm.

I found the norm to be lacking and felt sure that there was something else, something truer than what people accept as true. There is so much that is false in daily life.

Life in the world that most people accept as normal feels sad to me. Letting go feels thrilling. It seems that the attachments to physical life keep us from seeing what else is possible.

Originally Posted by Psionik

Oh we are in the land of living, but it is like it is not as important as it used to be. There is self preservance, but there is also different point of view on life, much more relaxed. When I'm trying to explain this to some people they don't understand. I'm seemingly normal, and yet my view of this is for them as if I'm close to end my life.
Fear kills consciousnes... he who fears, dies all the time... he tries to live in future and he forget to live now, he is effectively dead.

The more strong feeling of existence, of being, of consciousnes, the more peacefull, magical, full... the life feels

Originally Posted by JJFrank

Thanks, Kilham.

What you write resonates with my experience. I did a lot of work with a teacher who taught how to recognize ego games in oneself and others, and then how to disconnect the autoprogram. It takes diligence and perseverance, but yes, as the ego tricks that run the show in most people start to fall away, there is a vast openess that allows spectacular perceptions.

I sometimes feel how trees feel. Animals hear my thoughts and respond with their own. It feels crazy, but nobody sees me as crazy. People see me as normal, but I have been told that I seem only halfway in this world. That is how it feels. I think that people today can learn in a few years what it took me a few decades.

JJ

Hi JJ Frank

I practice, a bit...

I do what the "ask a monk" Youtube guy says.

My "take" on what he says is...the senses are reality. My judgment of what the senses, sense, is not real.

The object/s of the senses are not nice or nasty. But I (at the moment) cant help myself "judging" what ever is sensed.

What ever I see, I either "like" or "dislike". Same with hearing, tasting/texture, pain, touching (by skin) and so on.

Sensing is real but "liking" or "disliking" what I sense is judging and this judging creates my ego.

My ego is the skin of the bubble I must live in.

Once I maintain the habit of allowing all the senses, to sense, with out me jumping in with my judgments, for example:

(wow I "like" that object of sight/sound/taste/touch/smell)

Or

(Yuk, I dislike that object of sight/sound/taste/touch/smell)

When I replace that that ego-producing, bad habit with just understanding the Truth that sound is just sound. Seeing is just seeing.

The sound is just sound. If someone is praising me that is just sound. If someone is shouting, swearing and insulting me, that is just sound. Liking the praise and disliking the humiliation creates the skin of the limiting I (me, self, ego).

Let me find a clear, Youtube, explanation of what I am trying to say...might take a while. ...

Havago I do understand where you're going, living your ego, isn't a bad thing, fooling youself that all of this is real is part of what life is about. The thing is some people end up having a very limited and non versatile personalities because they believe they know who they are, that being "like" this is who they are, and that's a falacy, their personality and ego can change in any given moment and it's up to them how it changes, limiting their ownselves isn't a good desition.

And back to topic, becoming lucid during OBE can prepare you for death I think. Has anyone here passed from lucid dreaming to an OBE, cause of their lucid dreaming skills?

Robert Monroe collaborated with Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, MD, world-famous authority on death and dying, and Charles Tart, PhD, renowned researcher of altered states of consciousness, to create guided audio tracks for this very purpose: the "Going Home" album.

The exercises carry you far along the continuum of consciousness to experience independence from the physical body. These journeys of discovery help you to know that death need not be feared and to resolve unfinished business so you can live more fully in the moment. Especially valuable for anyone with a life-threatening condition and for caregivers of the terminally ill.

Havago,

I hear what you are saying as an abstract explanation of how ego manifests, but I don't quite get the practical usefulness of this perspective.

How does this help you know how to live?

JJ

Mowgly,

Yes, I agree. We can see millions of examples of people utilizing ego personalities and seeming to be enjoying themselves. So let them. No problem.

I decided to live an experiment to see what would hapen if I stopped. Something else comes forth. It is somehow related to lucid dream experience. Or maybe the two ways of experiencing just found a common way of delivering perception.

I have heard that OBE prepares one for death, but I have had no success in my experiments with it and wonder if it is real. It could be a way of misinterpreting lucid dreaming.

JJ

Coder,

Have you utilized the lessons yourself and if so, what did you personally experience?

JJ

Originally Posted by IAmCoder

Robert Monroe collaborated with Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, MD, world-famous authority on death and dying, and Charles Tart, PhD, renowned researcher of altered states of consciousness, to create guided audio tracks for this very purpose: the "Going Home" album.

JJ

Do you ever use psychedelics (psilocybin, DMT, etc. or even cannabis)?
If so, how easy is it for you to 'come back' after the experience. To the point where you are able to do anything / have conversations like this.

JJFrank

JJFrank wtote

Havago,

I hear what you are saying as an abstract explanation of how ego manifests, but I don't quite get the practical usefulness of this perspective.

How does this help you know how to live?JJ

Well, there is this experience outside (beyond) my ego. There is life beyond "me". It happened once. I was angry when the experience faded. I was angry because "I" missed out. "I" wasn't there.

For a time, as my "I" re-manifested, fully, there were kind-of two of me.

One "I" had never left this place AND "I" had never suffered.

But

The re-manifesting "me" the "ego-I" was shaken because that re manifesting "I" had never existed in this clear sublime place before and "I" had suffered lots. Plus I was suffering. Pluss I will suffer in the future, even die.

So

Who the hell is this "Me" who had "never suffered" and who had "never left" this clear, fresh, relaxed, all-knowing place (???)

That happened in 1975.

I am only now finding some concepts to help me verbalize and understand what happened and how to get back. And how to sort-of stay there.

That place is a unity of everything and everyone. A place of subtle-all-knowledge. Things are not split-up into billions of human egos. It is a clear, fresh, unity and suffering is totally unknown.

I wanna go back and stay but recently I have begun to hear from that Youtube guy "Ask a monk" that no ego can exist there.

Soooooo

I am learning how to let go of "liking and disliking" and "wanting".

Wanting is Suffering.

I always took it that when I dont get what I want, I suffer.

But.... No (!)

The wanting (itself) is deep, deep suffering. I don't notice it cos I'm drowning in wanting.

When I was 15 I had a meditation where I got smaller and smaller and smaller till I was gone.

Now I think that "I" (that got smaller and smaller) was my ego.

And

There is a very conscious and fully aware something existing beyond ego.

By-by for now.

Originally Posted by WhiteWind

JJ

Do you ever use psychedelics (psilocybin, DMT, etc. or even cannabis)?
If so, how easy is it for you to 'come back' after the experience. To the point where you are able to do anything / have conversations like this.

Do you think, using of psychedelic drugs leads to something else than hallucinations?

When I do OBE or LD, it is at least natural.

Whitewind,

I have used psychedelics in the past but I don't find them useful. They can be fun and maybe they had a lasting effect that I am not especially aware of, but I think that rather than the drugs changing me, I have the feeling that as time passes, i simply become more of me, which means more free from the conditioning and expectations of others in the world.

I have been at many crossroads where I realize that my actions and inner direction are taking me farther from fitting in. Each time I stop and ask "Should I back off?" "Should i reign myself in?" "Should I try more to be what other people expect me to be?"

And every time a voice says "You should be even MORE of what you are." "Even if it is alienating me from others?" I ask. "Be as much as yourself as you can possibly be, even if it seems that it will kill you." So i do.

I really can't say for sure that this is the best thing to do. But I doubt that I will ever stop doing it.

Having "conversations like this" is all I do. I am not sure I answered your question.

JJ

Originally Posted by WhiteWind

JJ

Do you ever use psychedelics (psilocybin, DMT, etc. or even cannabis)?
If so, how easy is it for you to 'come back' after the experience. To the point where you are able to do anything / have conversations like this.

Havago,

That is an amazing description of your experience. It is so incredibly vibrant and alive. It is so great to hear such a fresh and original perspective.

I often feel what you describe, but it is more like I am opening into it rather than getting back to it. A process of subtraction. Get rid of everything that isn't true and what remains is what is real. One problem has been that almost everything is untrue and giving up everything is scary, like being adrift with nothing to hold on to. But if I stay and feel the fear of dissolution, instead of becoming nothing, it seems that I become everything. Maybe as you say, the ego-I dissolves and that was the only thing keeping me from the something beyond.

JJ

Originally Posted by havago

JJFrank



Well, there is this experience outside (beyond) my ego. There is life beyond "me". It happened once. I was angry when the experience faded. I was angry because "I" missed out. "I" wasn't there.

For a time, as my "I" re-manifested, fully, there were kind-of two of me.

One "I" had never left this place AND "I" had never suffered.

But

The re-manifesting "me" the "ego-I" was shaken because that re manifesting "I" had never existed in this clear sublime place before and "I" had suffered lots. Plus I was suffering. Pluss I will suffer in the future, even die.

So

Who the hell is this "Me" who had "never suffered" and who had "never left" this clear, fresh, relaxed, all-knowing place (???)

That happened in 1975.

I am only now finding some concepts to help me verbalize and understand what happened and how to get back. And how to sort-of stay there.

That place is a unity of everything and everyone. A place of subtle-all-knowledge. Things are not split-up into billions of human egos. It is a clear, fresh, unity and suffering is totally unknown.

I wanna go back and stay but recently I have begun to hear from that Youtube guy "Ask a monk" that no ego can exist there.

Soooooo

I am learning how to let go of "liking and disliking" and "wanting".

Wanting is Suffering.

I always took it that when I dont get what I want, I suffer.

But.... No (!)

The wanting (itself) is deep, deep suffering. I don't notice it cos I'm drowning in wanting.

When I was 15 I had a meditation where I got smaller and smaller and smaller till I was gone.

Now I think that "I" (that got smaller and smaller) was my ego.

And

There is a very conscious and fully aware something existing beyond ego.

By-by for now.

I have never had a lucid dream, as I am still trying to get my very first one. But I am an avid follower and user of the techniques given to us by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. I am a meditater. Google him if you do not know who he is.

I also have had similiar experiences of this "nothing" that many of you have been experiencing, inside my meditation sessions, as well as outside. It really is a nice feeling, quite blissful indeed, but at first it was quite scary. I believe there are many different ways to get to this certain state of consciousness, and that is what it really is I believe. A different state of consciousness that you "elevate" to. Perhaps it brings you closer to death as you are in this state, but I think it brings you closer to enlightenment. Perhaps this can also been seen as a state which is close to death. To not have attachments to anything, to not want or need anything. To just let go. To see your ego get smaller and smaller right before your eyes. It's truly something that can't really be put in words very easily, but has to be experienced to truly understand it. Quite amazing indeed.

-Mirai

Ok, JJ

I will do this as I fall aseep.

***

But if I stay and feel the fear of dissolution, instead of becoming nothing, it seems that I become everything.

***

Some one (a Buddhist friend) said that every time we sleep we move through all the .... anyway, a person enters ... extinction.

The trick is to let it happen consciously. Like what you said:

But if I stay and feel the fear of dissolution, instead of becoming nothing, it seems that I become everything.

And being conscious through the (nightly) extinction sleep phase is ... enlightenment.

So

Humans get the opportunity to die every night. They do die (become extinct) every night. It's a chance for total Enlightenment every night.... The opportunity for Permanent Liberation 365 times, every year, that they live.

Thank you, JJFrank

Originally Posted by havago

And being conscious through the (nightly) extinction sleep phase is ... enlightenment.

So

Humans get the opportunity to die every night. They do die (become extinct) every night. It's a chance for total Enlightenment every night.... The opportunity for Permanent Liberation 365 times, every year, that they live.

Thank you, JJFrank

Absolutely beautiful, as well as true. Couldn't have said it any better myself.

-Mirai