Thread: Why is "everything", but dialating time possible in a lucid dream

Here's the thing, as I see it, about time dilation.

There is no such thing as time. There is no thing made of mass or energy that can be called "time." There is no time wave or time particle (sorry Star Trek fans). Time is simply the tool for measurement that we use to understand actual physical events like change, movement, velocity or acceleration. Unfortunately (for these purposes), that tool has been so completely embedded into our psyches that we are hard-pressed to experience reality without time on hand to help us wrap our heads around what we see. Indeed, our invention of time the tool was so complete that it has followed us into our dreams -- a dream, especially a LD, will pass in about the same amount of time as whatever time is passing in waking life. Under the rules we've created for observing reality, even dream reality, there seems no way to experience reality without using time to measure it, and apparently that yardstick of time is ruled immutably.

So, you cannot dilate time because it doesn't exist, and how can you change the dimensions of a concept that has no dimension? Also, you can't dilate time because its "length" has been perfectly fused into our psyches, giving us a nearly indomitable "sense" of time that can only be slightly effected by things like boredom or excitement. Seems a pretty tough nut to crack.

But what if, in dreams, you can possibly eliminate the nut itself? As the OP suggests, since you can do anything in the reality that is your dreams, instead of dilating time -- which might be impossible for the reasons I just said above -- why not simply ignore it? Why not just remove it from the process of how you observe and participate in the reality of your dreams?

This would be extremely difficult, because the programming is so perfectly imbedded in us to use time, but it seems that, with enough effort, you ought to be able to produce a dream that does not include time. Here's the irony in successfully doing so, though:

Erase time from your dream and suddenly your existence in the dream is eternal. You might be in your dream world "forever," but you won't know it, because eternity is no more than an endless here & now, with no time passing.

tl;dr: So, Tye, your conundrum might be more simply stated: Yes, you can do or change everything in a dream, but time, unfortunately, is not a thing, so it cannot be changed... it must instead be ignored, erased, or rather removed from your mind's toolbox for comprehending reality.

I don't think I'm being very helpful or clear here, and I'm confident that my opinion is in an extreme minority, so I think I'll stop ... just thought I'd share my thoughts, and maybe plug the thread I started about the nonexistence of time, because I think that's what really matters in a conversation like this.

Thanks for your response Sageous and i did actually find your post helpful. I think the topic of "time" is a great mystery no one will understand for awhile hopefully one day I can find a way to permanently alter my perception of "time".

Originally Posted by Sageous

Erase time from your dream and suddenly your existence in the dream is eternal. You might be in your dream world "forever," but you won't know it, because eternity is no more than an endless here & now, with no time passing.

That reminded me of a false lucid I had a while back. I knew I was dreaming, but I quickly became convinced that I was an injured football player in a coma and stuck in a dream. This realization destroyed my sense of time and I couldn't even begin to try and understand how long I'd been asleep. When I woke up I realized pretty quickly that I was only there for a few minutes. That sense of eternal here & now combined with the stupid coma thoughts made it a very miserable experience.

I don't believe time dilation is really possible in a fully lucid dream. By fully lucid I mean not only knowing it's a dream but also having a clear mind like you normally would while awake. If you are lucid and have all your normal mental faculties within the dream, you are not going to be able to mistake 2 minutes for 2 hours. Just like you won't mistake 2 minutes for 2 hours while awake unless your mind is being seriously hindered in some way. You can't be lucid and at the same time trick your mind. That's a contradiction. So dilating time in a dream would involve sacrificing true lucidity and making it more like an ordinary dream.

Originally Posted by dms111

I don't believe time dilation is really possible in a fully lucid dream. By fully lucid I mean not only knowing it's a dream but also having a clear mind like you normally would while awake. If you are lucid and have all your normal mental faculties within the dream, you are not going to be able to mistake 2 minutes for 2 hours. Just like you won't mistake 2 minutes for 2 hours while awake unless your mind is being seriously hindered in some way. You can't be lucid and at the same time trick your mind. That's a contradiction. So dilating time in a dream would involve sacrificing true lucidity and making it more like an ordinary dream.

... Now that is an excellent point.

Originally Posted by dms111

I don't believe time dilation is really possible in a fully lucid dream. By fully lucid I mean not only knowing it's a dream but also having a clear mind like you normally would while awake. If you are lucid and have all your normal mental faculties within the dream, you are not going to be able to mistake 2 minutes for 2 hours. Just like you won't mistake 2 minutes for 2 hours while awake unless your mind is being seriously hindered in some way. You can't be lucid and at the same time trick your mind. That's a contradiction. So dilating time in a dream would involve sacrificing true lucidity and making it more like an ordinary dream.

It's not a contradiction. You don't need a "seriously hindered mind in some way" to experience time dilation. Check this.

Originally Posted by Zoth

It's not a contradiction. You don't need a "seriously hindered mind in some way" to experience time dilation. Check this.

That's not at all the type of dilation I was talking about. I'm talking more about minutes to hours. That article looks to be about seconds and microseconds. What's described in that article is experienced by everyone on any ordinary day. We know this basic dilation exists and can be experienced in a dream. We can easily mistake one second for three seconds. Also the test subjects are not dilating time on purpose. It's not their choice it's just something that is happening to them.

But since time doesn't really exist the dilation should be able to extend to any amount of time that can be perceived. Our brains can absolutely mistake one minute for an hour, but it requires the brain to be operating under abnormal circumstances. Drugs, trauma, sensory isolation can all lead to extreme dilation.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Here's the thing, as I see it, about time dilation.

There is no such thing as time. There is no thing made of mass or energy that can be called "time." There is no time wave or time particle (sorry Star Trek fans). Time is simply the tool for measurement that we use to understand actual physical events like change, movement, velocity or acceleration. Unfortunately (for these purposes), that tool has been so completely embedded into our psyches that we are hard-pressed to experience reality without time on hand to help us wrap our heads around what we see. Indeed, our invention of time the tool was so complete that it has followed us into our dreams -- a dream, especially a LD, will pass in about the same amount of time as whatever time is passing in waking life. Under the rules we've created for observing reality, even dream reality, there seems no way to experience reality without using time to measure it, and apparently that yardstick of time is ruled immutably.

So, you cannot dilate time because it doesn't exist, and how can you change the dimensions of a concept that has no dimension? Also, you can't dilate time because its "length" has been perfectly fused into our psyches, giving us a nearly indomitable "sense" of time that can only be slightly effected by things like boredom or excitement. Seems a pretty tough nut to crack.

But what if, in dreams, you can possibly eliminate the nut itself? As the OP suggests, since you can do anything in the reality that is your dreams, instead of dilating time -- which might be impossible for the reasons I just said above -- why not simply ignore it? Why not just remove it from the process of how you observe and participate in the reality of your dreams?

This would be extremely difficult, because the programming is so perfectly imbedded in us to use time, but it seems that, with enough effort, you ought to be able to produce a dream that does not include time. Here's the irony in successfully doing so, though:

Erase time from your dream and suddenly your existence in the dream is eternal. You might be in your dream world "forever," but you won't know it, because eternity is no more than an endless here & now, with no time passing.

tl;dr: So, Tye, your conundrum might be more simply stated: Yes, you can do or change everything in a dream, but time, unfortunately, is not a thing, so it cannot be changed... it must instead be ignored, erased, or rather removed from your mind's toolbox for comprehending reality.

I don't think I'm being very helpful or clear here, and I'm confident that my opinion is in an extreme minority, so I think I'll stop ... just thought I'd share my thoughts, and maybe plug the thread I started about the nonexistence of time, because I think that's what really matters in a conversation like this.

I'd hate to reply to a post more than 1 month old, but I feel compelled to do so.
With that said, I can say with near certainty that time does exist, that it can be altered, and it's effects can be observed.
For a long time (pun not intended) physicist couldn't really explain what time was or if it even existed, however, Einstein's theory of general relativity explains how time works. In his theory Einstein claimed that space and time were intimately woven together like a straw basket. He also described how any object with mass bends space around it. This bending of space was his way of explaining gravity but this is also interesting because it states that because the object bends space it also indirectly bends time. This has the interesting effect of "slowing" time down around the object. For small objects with little mass this is barely noticeable with even the most accurate atomic clocks man has ever built. However, this time-bending effect becomes much more noticeable when the object in question is extremely large and massive.

Black holes, for instance, are the most massive and densest objects known to exist in the universe. This means they have an extremely powerful gravitational force (the most powerful of any know object) and it also means they bend time to an enormous extent. How enormous? Well, imagine you had a space craft that could teleport you into orbit around the closest super-massive black hole near you. Should you orbit this black hole for what you believe would be 1 year and then teleported back to earth, you would find that while you have only aged 1 year while earth has aged many hundreds, if not thousands, of years. This is not a trick, people on board you spaceship will have experienced time at a different rate than people on earth. What is amazing about this is that you would not notice it. People on your spaceship would feel like time is moving exactly how it should be. Concurrently people on earth would feel like time is moving exactly how it should be moving as well. It's actually quite mind blowing. (And yes, this is kind of a way to time travel into the future without aging all that much but it is a one way trip)

To give a real world example on why this is important let's talk about GPS, or Global Positioning Systems. Our GPS systems are all based on satellites in orbit around earth. Now GPS satellites have internal atomic clocks in them that are extremely accurate. However, scientists found that atomic clocks in orbit around the earth ticked slightly "faster" than atomic clocks on earth. This is because an object's gravitational pull gets more powerful as you get closer to it's gravitational center and thus time is bent more on the surface of the object than in orbit around the object. So why would this be a big deal? Because the GPS systems in our cars are all based on receiving signals from 4 different satellites around earth. All 4 of these signals reach your car at different times which tells the car's GPS exactly what it's position on earth is. However, should the satellite's atomic clocks get out of synch with the GPS clocks in your car your GPS systems will not work properly. Thankfully scientists identified this problem and adjusted the satellite's clocks accordingly to insure they stayed in synch with our clocks our surface clocks.

Because of Einsteins breakthroughs most physicists are now quite certain that time is a real thing and not merely a concept invented by man to explain nature's law of cause and effect in a coherent and understandable way.

(Sorry if this was too off topic or if there are glaring errors in my grammar or sentence structure. I wrote this hastily just to get my point across and not waste too much time. If it is determined this post is too off topic I will gladly edit it into something more topic friendly. Also, if you would like to learn more about how time works and how gravity/mass/energy effect it I suggest you google it as it is quite a fascinating subject)

^^ Okay, the backup for your statement is compelling, but aren't all your examples really showing that changes in the state of actual matter and energy require changes in our use of time as a tool for measuring that change? And you repeatedly said that time gets "bent." What exactly is the material or force that is being bent?

Also, from where did you hear that, since Einstein, "most physicists are now quite certain that time is a real thing?" I had heard exactly the opposite, that time "existed" quite soundly until Einstein et al came along and showed that time can be quite different from perspective to perspective, and that its once-assumed concrete "behavior" broke down pretty regularly. Indeed, from what I've seen, quantum theorists are using time more as a mathematical place-setter than ever before... what have I been seeing wrong?

I'm not being facetious here, or playing with words. I think my original thesis still stands: there is no material or force that can be quantified as a thing called "time." No particles, no waves, no anything at all. Yes, motion and change exist, and from our perspective there must be time present to understand that motion and change. But is it present as a tool for observation and understanding, or would it be there even if we were not? I'm still going with the former, I think. Plus, our perspective can change, can't it?

The changes in time that you list only more clearly note its lack of substance: What other item in physics can change its very nature like that? Yes, particles in a black hole might be mightily compressed, but they are still particles (and should they stop being particles, I believe something cataclysmic happens, like a big bang -- so they can return to their "correct" state, perhaps). The same goes for the forces: gravity increases in a black hole, but it is still gravity, and that gravity still behaves in a uniform manner. Light seems to "bend" as it passes through gravity wells, though it is still going quite straight, and its particles are continuing to behave in a predictable, relatively unchanging manner. How is it that time actually gets bent, even though there is nothing to bend? Could it be that time must change in order to make the formulas work and enable us to somehow grasp events like change and motion? And doesn't it make sense that, as a tool rather than an object or force, time would be the part of the formulas to change? I does to me.

So, though your argument is clear, I think it might do more to describe time as an unreal tool than as an existent article of energy or matter. If all physicists now are sure that time is real, where are their experiments splitting time particles, or generating time waves? Shouldn't someone by now have bottled time?

Please note, Tranquility Trip, that I speak respectively and with no sarcasm. I think this subject is important, and innate human acceptance of time as a real "thing" might form a formidable obstacle that prevents us from making great new "outside the box" strides in consciousness development. Like, for instance, functional methods to change the tool and dilate time.

And yes, I would love to be proven wrong, because, if time did have presence as matter or force, that would make it a thing we could physically manipulate ... which would be very cool, because we're already very practiced at manipulating things physically, as opposed to consciously.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Okay, the backup for your statement is compelling, but aren't all your examples really showing that changes in the state of actual matter and energy require changes in our use of time as a tool for measuring that change? And you repeatedly said that time gets "bent." What exactly is the material or force that is being bent?

Also, from where did you hear that, since Einstein, "most physicists are now quite certain that time is a real thing?" I had heard exactly the opposite, that time "existed" quite soundly until Einstein et al came along and showed that time can be quite different from perspective to perspective, and that its once-assumed concrete "behavior" broke down pretty regularly. Indeed, from what I've seen, quantum theorists are using time more as a mathematical place-setter than ever before... what have I been seeing wrong?

I'm not being facetious here, or playing with words. I think my original thesis still stands: there is no material or force that can be quantified as a thing called "time." No particles, no waves, no anything at all. Yes, motion and change exist, and from our perspective there must be time present to understand that motion and change. But is it present as a tool for observation and understanding, or would it be there even if we were not? I'm still going with the former, I think. Plus, our perspective can change, can't it?

The changes in time that you list only more clearly note its lack of substance: What other item in physics can change its very nature like that? Yes, particles in a black hole might be mightily compressed, but they are still particles (and should they stop being particles, I believe something cataclysmic happens, like a big bang -- so they can return to their "correct" state, perhaps). The same goes for the forces: gravity increases in a black hole, but it is still gravity, and that gravity still behaves in a uniform manner. Light seems to "bend" as it passes through gravity wells, though it is still going quite straight, and its particles are continuing to behave in a predictable, relatively unchanging manner. How is it that time actually gets bent, even though there is nothing to bend? Could it be that time must change in order to make the formulas work and enable us to somehow grasp events like change and motion? And doesn't it make sense that, as a tool rather than an object or force, time would be the part of the formulas to change? I does to me.

So, though your argument is clear, I think it might do more to describe time as an unreal tool than as an existent article of energy or matter. If all physicists now are sure that time is real, where are their experiments splitting time particles, or generating time waves? Shouldn't someone by now have bottled time?

Please note, Tranquility Trip, that I speak respectively and with no sarcasm. I think this subject is important, and innate human acceptance of time as a real "thing" might form a formidable obstacle that prevents us from making great new "outside the box" strides in consciousness development. Like, for instance, functional methods to change the tool and dilate time.

And yes, I would love to be proven wrong, because, if time did have presence as matter or force, that would make it a thing we could physically manipulate ... which would be very cool, because we're already very practiced at manipulating things physically, as opposed to consciously.

It is unknown what time actually is. However, the most commonly held belief is that it is a dimensional plane. The fourth to be exact. In this way it may not even exist in the same way we usually think of something "existing". This means that time is not a physical object as much as it is a plane of existence. This dimensional plane (of time) is technically separate from our 3 spacial dimensions, however, they are both are wrapped around each other so that anything affecting one also affects the other.
So, to answer your question on what gravity is bending when I say it is "bending" time is the same answer I would give to the question about what gravity is bending when we say gravity bends space. It is bending the dimensional planes that make up our universe. This may also answer you question as to "what other item in physics can change it's very nature like that", in which case the answer is space itself.
Furthermore, it may also answer your question on why we haven't been able to isolate time particles/waves, it would be like asking why we haven't been able to isolate space particles/waves.
(This is all dependent on whether or not time is a dimensional plane, which so far our experiments suggest it is)
I'm going to completely avoid touching upon any form of quantum physics if only because I am even less qualified to speak upon it than normal physics and because quantum physics makes my head spin at times .

(P.S. I hope I'm not confusing too many people or making unclear and unsupported points. I'm only 16 and have been only studying basic physics on my free time for about 3 years now. So I am by no means an authority on this topic and as such should not be held with the same respect as a professional would/should be.)