INTRO/DC-1 Chat Thread Archive

[Serenity]

Spoiler for Chat log for class one: [18:59] <@Serenity> Alright, so I guess we'll get her started [18:59] <@Serenity> Welcome folks [19:00] <Chessica> thank you. [19:00] <@Serenity> As you know, these chat classes are rather informal, since I posted all the info on the tutorial, already! [19:01] <@Serenity> But lots of people benefit from having their questions answered live, so ask away. I only ask that they be kept to the tutorial-related information, for the sake of the chat logs [19:01] == R00 [[email protected]] has joined #dvaintro [19:01] <R00> Hey guys [19:01] <@Serenity> but if you want to ask me something specific, PM me with an off-topic question [19:01] <@Serenity> hey roo! [19:01] <@Serenity> just greeting everyone [19:01] <R00> cool [19:01] <@Serenity> anyone have any questions about the tutorial? [19:02] <R00> Nope - thought it was great though [19:02] <@Serenity> lol thanks [19:02] <@Serenity> hmm... well, this might be easier if i open up the topic [19:02] <@Serenity> questions in general? [19:03] <R00> aer there 12 in the course? [19:03] <Oothoon> I I found it interesting on how emotions contol dreams. Whats the best way to control emotions? [19:03] <@Serenity> there are actually 21 people enrolled [19:03] <R00> k [19:03] <@Serenity> emotion control... i've heard that by focusing on an emotion during your WBTB can induce a certain type of lucid dream [19:03] <R00> becoming lucid ;p [19:04] <@Serenity> as in, if you have a goal to find someone, for instance [19:04] <R00> WBTB? [19:04] <@Serenity> you can focus on the emotion that finding someone gives you [19:04] <@Serenity> and try to intensify it during your WBTB [19:05] <@Serenity> which is a wake back to bed [19:05] <@Serenity> in the middle of the night after 4-6 hours of dreaming, you wake up for a period of time [19:05] <@Serenity> I wouldn't suggest doing a long one after 6 hours.... it's best to leave a good 3 hours left to dream in the night [19:05] <Oothoon> I usually just try to clear my mind of all thoughts during WBTB. Maybe I should I try to focus on an emotion more. [19:06] <R00> cool! [19:06] <@Serenity> This concept is still actually rather new to me... I haven't read too much on it yet, but I remember seeing it brought up recently [19:06] <@Serenity> but it's a good one... emotions are intense during dreams [19:07] <@Serenity> mainly because the prefrontal cortex (which manages logic) turns off when we sleep [19:07] <@Serenity> and that's why floating trees and pink elephants are so damn normal while we sleep [19:07] <Chessica> I have a Q about faulty logic: How can I train myself to detect faulty logic while I'm still dreaming? [19:08] <@Serenity> The way I do it is to constantly question things when I'm awake [19:08] <@Serenity> sometimes you see something that makes you double take, or is unusual [19:08] <Chessica> like how? [19:09] <@Serenity> well... lets say you're riding a train, and they announce the wrong stop [19:09] <@Serenity> reality check [19:09] <@Serenity> or you're walking and an ambulance roars past [19:09] <@Serenity> reality check [19:10] <@Serenity> I should start up a thread on DV about odd reality check moments... you'd be surprised of the weird things people see IRL [19:10] <R00> IRL? lol [19:10] <Chessica> lol [19:10] <R00> real life [19:10] <@Serenity> I once saw two men, skate boarding down the sidewalk, in bright red wetsuits [19:10] <@Serenity> the head bit even covered their eyes [19:10] <@Serenity> I was pinching my nose like the world was ending [19:10] <Chessica> [19:11] <R00> haha lol [19:11] <Chessica> I can imagen... [19:11] <@Serenity> there's also a tibetan dream yoga idea... [19:11] <R00> did you get out your inception like totem? [19:11] <@Serenity> the idea being that all the world could be a dream [19:11] <R00> make sure you were in the waking world haha [19:11] <@Serenity> nah, i don't have or use a totem [19:11] <R00> yeah was prob an nice added touch to the film [19:12] <@Serenity> constantly evaluate [19:12] <Oothoon> It seem that my dreams are actually giving me clues, but I fail to pick up on the images. [19:12] <R00> "Is this a dream" "I'm in a dream" [19:12] <@Serenity> right... and then when you RC, WHY isn't this a dream right now? [19:13] <@Serenity> but don't go leaping off of bridges to prove it to yourselves, please [19:13] <@Serenity> Oothoon, I noticed that, when I read your journal [19:13] <R00> I wonder with that - wouldn't it more appropriate concerning you subconscious reasoning to look for things that suggest it IS a dream? [19:14] <R00> in waking life? [19:14] <@Serenity> Hmm... I think what helped me was while awake, I evaluate these things from my dreams, while awake [19:14] <R00> evaluate dream memories? [19:14] <@Serenity> i don't think I understand, Roo.... like I do, but i don [19:14] <@Serenity> don't* [19:15] <@Serenity> well... let's say i missed an inconsistancy from my dream [19:15] <@Serenity> then I will usually think about what I missed... and tell myself to catch these things [19:16] <@Serenity> part of a dream induction technique (one called MILD) is to recall a dream where you missed becoming lucid and imagining you are dreaming it again [19:16] <@Serenity> only this time, you imagine yourself catching the dream sign, and becoming lucid from it [19:16] <R00> Well the mindset "this is not a dream" created during the day would carry over into your dream so you would stay indentified with the content. But saying "this is a dream" during the day, it would seem more likely that whilst dreaming you would have that mindset which would flick the switch to conscious recognition that you are dreaming [19:17] <Oothoon> What kind of dream contorl is possible in non lucid dreams? [19:17] <Chessica> second that, R00 [19:17] <@Serenity> I understand where you're going with this. [19:17] <@Serenity> hmm... let me explain [19:17] <R00> I am just trying to find the best reality checking technique [19:17] <@Serenity> Let's see I see those men skateboarding [19:17] <R00> k [19:18] <@Serenity> And I pinch my nose, and I can't breathe [19:18] <@Serenity> then I look at my clothes and I remember putting them on in the morning [19:18] <@Serenity> that proves to me why this isn't a dream at the moment [19:18] <@Serenity> so it is kind of like assuming, "That was weird, am I dreaming?" [19:19] <R00> yeah it is to do with schemata [19:19] <@Serenity> so you do initially assume when you see the oddity that it IS a dream at the moment, and your checks tell you if it is or isn't [19:19] <R00> linking moments of false logic with reality checks [19:19] <@Serenity> but i do agree with one thing... you should expect your reality checks to work [19:20] <@Serenity> when you pinch your nose, expect to breathe [19:20] <R00> yeah - expect to hover etc [19:20] <@Serenity> Oothoon... non-lucids are hard to control, since we're not generally lucid to control it [19:20] <R00> thanks serenity [19:21] == Linkster17 [[email protected]] has joined #dvaintro [19:21] <@Serenity> i'm on the fence about this one... I think if you control something, you're aware it's a dream, to a certain extent [19:21] <Linkster17> sorry im late [19:21] <@Serenity> it's okay links [19:21] <R00> lol [19:21] <Chessica> Hi, Linkster17 [19:21] <Linkster17> hey [19:21] <R00> do you have a late note linkster? [19:21] <Chessica> lol [19:22] <Linkster17> yes, but i can only get it when im asleep and lucid [19:22] <Oothoon> I like the example of a tooth falling out. You get overconcerened with it and it just gets worse. Maybe reality checking when you become to anxious, or angry. [19:22] <@Serenity> i used to think i controlled non-lucids, but then i wondered... how do i try to control them, or try to influence them if i don't know i'm dreaming? [19:23] <@Serenity> ah yeah... teeth falling out is a major universal dream sign [19:23] <R00> ;p [19:23] <@Serenity> definitely reality check if you find it happening, instead of getting upset [19:23] <Chessica> I like the idea about RC's when anxious, Oothoon. [19:24] <R00> I've found that consciously contolling dreams is almost like you are directing a movie.. you and the environment are one organism.. then up from that is an individuated personality [19:24] <@Serenity> there are a few universal dream signs... being naked... washrooms looking deplorable or not private... [19:24] <@Serenity> teeth falling out, lights not turning on [19:24] <Oothoon> My last lucid dream I used looking at my hands as a reality check. I rubbed them together and then I brought them up to my face and covered my eyes. I was totally facinated being able to look through my hands. [19:24] <R00> FLYING [19:24] <@Serenity> cellphones not operating correctly, etc [19:24] <@Serenity> nice one, oothoon [19:24] <Chessica> Oooh, good one, Oothoon! [19:25] <@Serenity> My hands are often a check, because they some times fade off at my wrists [19:25] <@Serenity> I've also seen my ring and middle fingers on each hand, fused together and the size of carrots [19:25] <R00> haha [19:26] <@Serenity> yeah, that was my dream pissing me off.... i was trying to snap my fingers [19:26] <R00> I cant remember any weird stuff happening like the hands thing etc,, mainly hovering [19:26] <@Serenity> and the dream was saying, "hah! you can't, can you?" [19:26] <@Serenity> :S [19:26] <R00> teehee [19:26] <Chessica> lol [19:26] <@Serenity> me and my lucidity have mind battles sometimes :S [19:26] <R00> I find shematcs so interesting [19:26] <R00> I dont know how to speel it [19:27] <R00> but does the prcoess of schematics still apply in lucids? [19:27] <@Serenity> schemata [19:27] <@Serenity> it can [19:27] <@Serenity> it doesn't have to, but sometimes using schemata as a control makes it go easier [19:27] <R00> but is it more consciously decided that subconsciously [19:27] <R00> hmm k [19:28] <@Serenity> i'm of the mindset to not try to dominate dreams too much [19:28] <R00> k [19:28] <@Serenity> if i can't fly, then find another way [19:28] <R00> sort of go with thee flow? [19:28] <@Serenity> yep [19:29] <@Serenity> i find dreams pretty fascinating, so unless i have a really major goal, I usually go with the flow [19:29] <R00> are we supposed to post the homework stuff in our workbooks btw? [19:29] <@Serenity> yes [19:29] <R00> k [19:29] <@Serenity> have i missed a question? [19:30] <@Serenity> my brain is sputtering out a little [19:30] <Chessica> Won't going with the flow make the LD unstable? Like a risk that it will become a regular dream? [19:31] <@Serenity> there's a risk you could lose your lucidity... you should remind yourself that you're dreaming [19:31] <Chessica> ok [19:31] <@Serenity> it might be a mindset thing, though [19:31] <R00> if your in "universe lucid dream" it will lolol [19:31] <@Serenity> just don't worry about it [19:31] <@Serenity> remind yourself you're dreaming, and don't worry about losing it [19:32] <@Serenity> i find my own LD's become more unstable the more i try to influence or force things [19:33] <Chessica> ok [19:33] <Oothoon> The idea of Schemas are new to me. [19:33] <R00> same [19:33] <@Serenity> one i had, i was trying to force a portal [19:33] <Linkster17> same [19:33] <Chessica> same [19:33] <R00> hahah [19:33] <@Serenity> i had to restabilize every 5 seconds, it seemed [19:33] <@Serenity> schemas, i tend to think of as themes [19:34] <R00> schemata makes so much sense though.. how dreams are logical beyond form [19:34] <Chessica> how did you restabilitize? [19:34] <@Serenity> touched things in the dream [19:34] <@Serenity> mostly walls, since i was in an objectless room [19:34] <Chessica> ok [19:35] <@Serenity> i felt a door and admired how grainy the wood felt against my hand [19:35] <R00> schemas are the best [19:35] <R00> srry [19:35] <R00> kddn [19:35] <@Serenity> here's my secret... i'm a sailor moon freak... sailor moon is a japanese cartoon from the early 90's [19:35] <@Serenity> ever since i was a teen, I would use sailor moon as a way to defeat nightmares [19:36] <@Serenity> the nightmares made me lucid, so I would turn into sailor moon, which in a sense, invoked a schema [19:36] <@Serenity> cos now, regular old me can use powerful abilities [19:36] <@Serenity> and generally defeat anything that needed defeating [19:36] <@Serenity> this is an idea of how to control a dream with a schema [19:37] <R00> brb [19:38] <Oothoon> Can you formulate a Schema sceen during a WBTB attempt? [19:38] <@Serenity> sure can [19:39] <@Serenity> WBTB's are the perfect time to think about something you want to dream about or accomplish [19:39] <Oothoon> I'll try tonight. [19:39] <@Serenity> just remember that once you're back in bed to not be too forceful with your thoughts [19:39] <@Serenity> for me, it keeps me awake [19:40] <@Serenity> brb real quick [19:40] <Oothoon> That's the problem, can't get back into the sleep mode. Sometime I just give up and then boom I fall asleep. [19:41] <@Serenity> what i find helps me is doing some WILD steps, but not actually doing the WILD, if that makes sense [19:42] <@Serenity> i lay down, and i start deeply relaxing with a breathing technique [19:42] <@Serenity> and feel myself getting heavy... and usually doing the "am i dreaming?" "this is a dream" repetition in my head [19:43] <@Serenity> not forcefully, but every couple of breaths [19:43] <R00> I used to listen to radio in a half in half out state and so would be constantly be creating a dream script in line with the radio stories lol - was quite enjoyable aha [19:43] <@Serenity> breathe... "am i dreaming?" breathe... "this is a dream." [19:44] <@Serenity> and then once i feel SP kicking in, I roll over and cut out thoughts [19:44] <@Serenity> the rest is up to fate, but you've done a lot of work to ensure fate works in your favour [19:45] <Oothoon> Right, when it works the results are well worth the effort. [19:45] <@Serenity> if you're feeling too terribly anxious, maybe try 0.5mg of melatonin, or 200mg of L-theanine (**if you're over 18!!**) [19:46] <R00> SP = sleep paralysis? [19:46] <@Serenity> actually, L-theanine is amazing for calming nerves. so I've heard. i'm trying it for the first time tonight [19:46] <@Serenity> yes, Roo [19:47] <R00> coooooooooool [19:47] <@Serenity> but i've read a lot of people's experiences with it [19:47] <@Serenity> it's very favoured among the community and works well with certain lucid aids that tend to cause in somnia [19:47] <@Serenity> insomnia* [19:48] <@Serenity> anything else for tonight? link? [19:48] <Linkster17> im here [19:49] <Linkster17> i have no questions [19:49] <R00> alright good job today everybody - real tight [19:49] <Oothoon> I'll get some next time I'm at the health food store for some herb tea. [19:49] <@Serenity> I'll stick around for a little while longer [19:50] <R00> mmm herb tea [19:50] <R00> i ran out the other day [19:50] <Chessica> I found this chat thing very interresting! [19:50] <@Serenity> ty, ty [19:50] <R00> serenity to you guyz ever go on skype? [19:51] <Oothoon> Thanks, Looking forward to our next chat. [19:51] <@Serenity> i forgot my skype log in info a long time ago :S [19:51] <R00> ok.. its just the whole text vs spken word thing [19:52] <R00> so basically we review the material posted yesterday, do the homeowrk and post it. then wait until tomorrows class? [19:52] <@Serenity> yeah... part of why i do my actual lesson via tutorial is to combat the whole chaos of chat [19:53] <@Serenity> next live class is wednesday evening (thursday morning, for some!) [19:53] <@Serenity> but i will be posting lesson two in about 12 hours or so Spoiler for Class two chat log: [18:52] <@Serenity> Alrighty, so how did you guys get on with tutorial #2? [18:52] == zebrah [[email protected]] has joined #dvaintro [18:52] == JanErik has changed nick to ThatSwedishDude [18:52] <@Serenity> hey zebrah [18:52] <zebrah> hey [18:52] <ThatSwedishDude> bah [18:52] <ThatSwedishDude> I read it [18:52] <Chessica> The tutorial was very good! Enjoyed it very much. [18:53] <@Serenity> how are you feeling about dream signs, recall, etc [18:53] <@Serenity> i find that recall tends to be the biggest thing for people [18:53] <@Serenity> so how are you feeling about your own recall, right now? [18:53] <Chessica> My recall is allmost to good... [18:53] <ThatSwedishDude> my recall is up and down.. [18:53] <ThatSwedishDude> but at least two a night [18:54] <@Serenity> lol chessica yeah your entries look like mine [18:54] <Oothoon> It varies, some nights I remeber all others nothing. [18:54] <ThatSwedishDude> I don't really like dreamsigns for some reason [18:54] <ThatSwedishDude> I know what to look for [18:54] <ThatSwedishDude> I mean, things that are weird inthe same way in almost every dream [18:54] <ThatSwedishDude> but it's so hard to like... make yourself look for it [18:55] <@Serenity> dream signs are very much up to the user... not to shoot myself in the foot, but i don't use them either... *coughs* [18:55] <@Serenity> BUT! they're still helpful [18:55] <ThatSwedishDude> hehe [18:55] <Chessica> I'm wondering how many dreamsigns one should record. Can one have too many dream signs? [18:55] <@Serenity> especially if say, you dream about school a lot, right? [18:55] <ThatSwedishDude> I usually just get lucid like that, I never see something, and goes: "Hmm that is strange, perhaps I'm dreaming?" [18:55] <ThatSwedishDude> yeah [18:55] <@Serenity> you can then remind yourself during the day "next time i'm in school, i should think about dreaming and do a reality check" [18:56] <ThatSwedishDude> oh, well I use to dream alot about school, but I finished it 4 years ago lol [18:56] <@Serenity> Chessica, i dunno, i think i have over 100 dream signs [18:56] <Oothoon> Some signs are only found in dreams. Like jumping a great height. [18:56] <@Serenity> but some things appear more often than others [18:56] <Chessica> good point, Oothoon! [18:56] <@Serenity> so i find it handy to keep a mental list of about 10 things that are current [18:57] <@Serenity> right Oothoon [18:57] <@Serenity> can you guys think of some other examples of things that only happen in dreams? [18:57] <ThatSwedishDude> I'm gonna try 200mg of b6 tonight [18:57] <@Serenity> matte, 100mg should be enough, actually [18:57] <ThatSwedishDude> things morphing [18:57] <@Serenity> the body will only absorb what it needs [18:57] <ThatSwedishDude> ok [18:58] <Chessica> Going to a place far away in a blink of an eye... [18:58] <ThatSwedishDude> flying [18:58] <@Serenity> and if you hit it with a lot all at once, you'll actually waste a lot of it by peeing the vitamin out, cos we can only absorb so much at a time [18:59] == R00 [[email protected]] has joined #dvaintro [18:59] <ThatSwedishDude> yeah I knew that, but I thought that only applied to certain types of vitamins, I reckoned these could be absorbed [18:59] <ThatSwedishDude> since they said 50-250mg [18:59] <ThatSwedishDude> but thanks for telling me saved me a dose then hehe [18:59] <Chessica> Hi, R00.. [18:59] <R00> helloo! [18:59] <@Serenity> also, things like pinching your nose and being able to breathe... [18:59] <ThatSwedishDude> I've got the best dreamsign! [18:59] <@Serenity> or... looking at your hands and they look all wonky [19:00] <@Serenity> what is it? [19:00] <ThatSwedishDude> I have wrist injuries, and they hurt pretty much all day long [19:00] <ThatSwedishDude> and they dont hurt in my dreams [19:00] <ThatSwedishDude> so when I don't feel pain, I can just RC [19:00] <ThatSwedishDude> should work right? [19:00] <@Serenity> awesome, and yes, sort of [19:00] <Chessica> And like Oothoon said on the last chat.. Holding your hand in front of your eyes and being able to see through it. [19:00] <@Serenity> i'll tell you what happened with me [19:00] <@Serenity> i had one just like it... i have an achy back because i'm old [19:01] <@Serenity> and my DS was my back... if it didn't ache, i was dreaming [19:01] <@Serenity> just a few nights ago, i used that RC and my back was searing... and i rarely ever feel pain in dreams [19:01] <@Serenity> but i did, so i concluded i was awake [19:01] <ThatSwedishDude> ah cool! [19:01] <ThatSwedishDude> will try to think of that [19:02] <@Serenity> sometimes, if you expect something to be there (like pain) your dream will put it there because you expect it [19:02] <@Serenity> which reminds me to tell you.... ALWAYS back your RC's up [19:02] <@Serenity> do two at least [19:02] <ThatSwedishDude> I count fingers and pinch nose [19:03] <Oothoon> I have felt pain on a couple of occations. It has always woken me up. [19:03] <@Serenity> i look at my hands, pinch my nose and check what i'm wearing [19:03] <@Serenity> Oothoon, me too... or the anticipation for something to hurt will wake me up [19:04] <@Serenity> oh! that reminds me [19:04] <Chessica> A question about dream journals; Should I write down every little detail I remember, or just sum up the dreams? [19:04] <@Serenity> okay question first [19:04] <@Serenity> Chess, i prefer many details [19:04] <@Serenity> your recall is really good, so i imagine it feels really tedious, right? [19:04] <Chessica> yeah...... [19:05] == newtz1995 [[email protected]] has joined #dvaintro [19:05] <R00> Yeah same I havent typed yesterdays up for that reason [19:05] <@Serenity> it's entirely up to you... if you would prefer to write the cliffnotes version, but don't write any less than something that would hurt your recall, if that makes sense [19:05] <newtz1995> how late am i :/ [19:05] <@Serenity> about 16 minutes [19:06] <newtz1995> ouch sorry [19:06] <@Serenity> it's cool [19:06] <Chessica> better late than never... [19:06] <ThatSwedishDude> Serenity: what if you think of the details while writing down the main story line? [19:06] <newtz1995> have imissed important stuff? [19:06] <@Serenity> hang on a sec [19:08] <@Serenity> matte.... sometimes what i do is i have another word document open (i do all my journaling on the computer) and i write them down on the side, then go back to the story [19:08] <@Serenity> not much, newt [19:08] <ThatSwedishDude> ah ok [19:08] <@Serenity> (i'm at work, so sometimes i might be slow at answering, cos i have to answer the phone - bear with me) [19:09] <@Serenity> for me, often the details work with the story very well [19:09] <R00> where are you working serenity? [19:09] <@Serenity> like describing the setting is setting the scene [19:09] <R00> if you don't mind me asking.. [19:09] <ThatSwedishDude> I'll try that from now on, lotsa details [19:09] <@Serenity> i work for a security dispatch centre [19:09] <R00> cool [19:09] <@Serenity> i find that the more details = more recall [19:09] <R00> so don't mess with her! [19:09] <ThatSwedishDude> oh dang my DJ entries are gonna be a mile long if I describe everything haha [19:10] <@Serenity> so far, my best is 7 dreams a night [19:10] <Oothoon> I have a small voice recorder that I don't use like I should. I think you have to work to make it a habbit then you don't feel right if you don't record something. [19:10] <@Serenity> but i've seen others do 10-20 dreams [19:10] <ThatSwedishDude> takes around an hour to write a few dreams for me as it is, I want it to be in correct english hah [19:10] <Chessica> Is it important to have the correct order when I record my dreams? [19:10] <ThatSwedishDude> wow 20 dreams [19:10] <R00> yeah even a voice recorder doesn't make it easy.. I use one.. you are right about developing the habit [19:10] <@Serenity> i don't worry about the order until i'm ready to publish my stuff [19:11] <@Serenity> usually, i just record things as I recall them, and then i make sense of it after [19:11] <@Serenity> dream journal, like anything else becomes easier the more you do it [19:11] <@Serenity> but just remember that lucid dreaming, in itself, is a discipline [19:12] <@Serenity> and it takes discipline to master [19:12] <@Serenity> that might help motivate some of you [19:12] <R00> I'm wondering about those rem dreamers tbh [19:12] <@Serenity> rem dreamers! alrighty [19:12] <@Serenity> well, they're hella expensive [19:12] <R00> lol.. im lazy [19:12] <@Serenity> but what they do is monitor your eye movements [19:12] <R00> 145 euro [19:12] <Chessica> what's rem dreamers? [19:13] <@Serenity> it detects when you're in REM sleep [19:13] <Chessica> ok [19:13] <@Serenity> once it detects it, it flashes red lights in your eyes [19:13] <R00> Chess: REM-Dreamer - Lucid Dream Induction Device* [19:13] <@Serenity> that will seep into your dreams [19:13] <ThatSwedishDude> shouldn't you just be able to figure out your REM pattern and set an alarm clock to ring for a second or so? [19:13] <@Serenity> you might see it manifest as a blinking red traffic light, though [19:13] == zebrah [[email protected]] has quit [Client exited] [19:13] <Chessica> lol, traffic light... [19:14] <@Serenity> you can figure out your REM schedule fairly easily [19:14] <@Serenity> remember that typically, we dream in 90 minute cycles [19:14] <ThatSwedishDude> it's cool how fast the sound of an alarmclock gets a meaning in a dream [19:14] <R00> Raven put out a thing on them as well: http://www.dreamviews.com/f85/sd-1-s...theory-103618/ [19:14] <@Serenity> every night, 90 minutes, ending with REM [19:14] <R00> what about afternoon naps? [19:15] <@Serenity> after noon naps are slightly different [19:15] <R00> I seem to dream immediately upon sleeping [19:15] <ThatSwedishDude> doesn't the first rem come after a few hours? then 90 minutes, then it shortens [19:15] <@Serenity> i believe because we don't produce melatonin during the day, combined with daylight, we skip deep sleep [19:15] <R00> I'll dream all through a 30 or 60 min nap it would seem [19:15] <@Serenity> so in afternoon naps you go straight from awake to REM [19:15] <Chessica> If you are very tired rem can come imidiately after going to sleep... [19:15] <@Serenity> which is why people like WILD naps so much in the day [19:15] <R00> ok cool I didn't know that [19:16] <@Serenity> the sleep cycle in itself is very awesome [19:16] <Oothoon> Yes, it seems that timing is very important. If you to a WILD when your ready for REM the transition can happen quickly. [19:16] <@Serenity> brb [19:16] <@Serenity> phone.... [19:18] <R00> yeah ive got an ebook on sleep cycles which has been a very interesting read [19:18] <R00> it does say that we naturally dip in the afternoon which is why naps are important because they re-engergize you for the night [19:18] <Oothoon> Which boot is that R00? [19:18] <R00> something to do with melatonin? [19:18] <@Serenity> a lot of people tend to like interrupting REM during their WBTB because of that theory, Ooth [19:19] <R00> one sec [19:19] <@Serenity> i don't think it's melatonin [19:19] <@Serenity> in a natural circadian cycle, we start producing melatonin around 9pm [19:19] <@Serenity> and we stop producing it around 3am [19:20] <R00> the rythm corespods with melatonin levels [19:20] <@Serenity> right... [19:20] <@Serenity> let me check up on that, i don't remember the thing about naps [19:21] <ThatSwedishDude> so, between 9 and 3 is the best time to dream then? [19:21] <Chessica> I have a chronic sleep cycle disorder, and my melatonin production is not quite right. It skips a few hours ahead each day... [19:21] <R00> do you get plently of sun in the day? [19:21] <Chessica> Yes, plenty. I'm a gardener. [19:22] <@Serenity> it probably is because melatonin levels are low, but i'm not seeing the answer straight away here [19:23] <@Serenity> no matte.... melatonin suppresses dreaming [19:23] <ThatSwedishDude> oh [19:23] <@Serenity> that's why we say don't take melatonin during your WBTB [19:23] <Chessica> Maybe thats why I dream so vividly... [19:23] <@Serenity> and to use something like L-theanine if you need a sleep aid [19:24] <ThatSwedishDude> so the reason I dream ALOT when I've had 9+ hours of sleep, is just because my REM periods are frequent then [19:24] <@Serenity> but there's a trick: if you take a 3mg melatonin 1 hour before sleep, you will cause a nice REM-rebound [19:24] <ThatSwedishDude> what if I went to bed like 10 on the evening, and slept to 10 in the morning, would that give me more dreams than from 2 to 2? [19:24] <@Serenity> which leads to longer, vivid dreams [19:24] <@Serenity> 12 hours?! daily??? [19:25] <ThatSwedishDude> uhm, usually around 9-10 [19:25] <ThatSwedishDude> I'm home sick [19:25] <Chessica> awww. [19:25] <Oothoon> If I sleep to much I get a headach. [19:25] <@Serenity> well... usually after 6 hours of sleeping, so in your case from 4am-10am, you'll start getting fantastic dreaming periods [19:26] <@Serenity> if you're doing a 2-2... then 8am-2pm [19:26] <@Serenity> makes sense? [19:26] <Chessica> that is interresting information, Serenity! [19:26] <newtz1995> I usually go from 11-6:30 and i find that that's a perfect amount of time to catch dreams when i wae up [19:26] <ThatSwedishDude> yup [19:26] <@Serenity> the reason being is... we need a certain amount of deep sleep to recuperate [19:27] <@Serenity> deep sleep generally has no dreaming [19:27] <@Serenity> (it can, but they are harder to remember) [19:27] <@Serenity> as the night goes on, deep sleep gets shorter, and REM gets longer [19:27] <@Serenity> and they have this tug of war each 90 minute cycle [19:28] <@Serenity> after 8 hours of sleep, your chances of having a lucid dream increase by about 50% [19:28] <@Serenity> this is because REM is so long at this point [19:28] <ThatSwedishDude> what about after 10? haha [19:28] <@Serenity> your dreams are average over an hour in length at this point [19:28] <@Serenity> i don't know, specifically matte [19:28] <ThatSwedishDude> my gf goes up at 9, leaves 9.30 I fall back asleep for a few hours, that's when I dream alot [19:28] <Oothoon> Dreaming is a very creative process. You can't expect a great dream every night. [19:29] <@Serenity> i'd hazard a guess that after 10-12 hours of sleep, slow wave sleep probably only lasts about 5 minutes [19:29] <ThatSwedishDude> lol [19:29] <ThatSwedishDude> cool [19:29] <@Serenity> this is true, Ooth [19:29] <newtz1995> i find it very hard to sleep over 8 hours unless im massively tired [19:29] <ThatSwedishDude> I'll try that out after a REM rebound day, 12+ hours of sleep [19:30] <ThatSwedishDude> and tell u what happens [19:30] <@Serenity> i actually sleep about 10 hours most days, but i also switch between days and night shifts every week [19:30] <@Serenity> i do two night shifts a week... and i also do lengthy WBTB's [19:30] <Chessica> I sleep 10 hours a day, like 'swedish' do.. [19:30] <@Serenity> about 1 hour in length [19:31] <ThatSwedishDude> haha [19:31] <@Serenity> questions? comments? wonderments? [19:31] <ThatSwedishDude> 1 hour of being awake? [19:31] <@Serenity> yep [19:31] <ThatSwedishDude> ah [19:31] <R00> ok yep you are right re the sleeping rhythms serenity just did some research.. a great ebook is "how to sleep less and have more energy than you ever had before" [19:31] <ThatSwedishDude> is it more effective than just 30 minutes for u? [19:31] <R00> torrent: How To Sleep Less and Have More Energy Than You Ever Had Before pdf Torrent Download [19:31] <@Serenity> after being awake for an hour it raises the Ach levels in your brain [19:31] <R00> direct download: [HF]Powerful Sleep - How to Sleep Less and Have More Energy - Rapidshare, Megaupload, Hotfile [19:32] <@Serenity> makes it easier for you to recognize you're dreaming when you go back to sleep [19:32] <@Serenity> however... last night, i got lucid *bows* [19:33] <@Serenity> my WBTB was maybe 15 mins long [19:33] <R00> im wondering (since I take afternoon naps) if that would be the best time to try WILDS? [19:33] <@Serenity> maybe [19:33] <@Serenity> R00, it seems to work well for many people [19:33] <R00> lol k leave it with me [19:33] <R00> l [19:33] <R00> k [19:33] <@Serenity> i know a lot of people who only do WILDs as naps [19:33] <@Serenity> you dn' [19:33] <@Serenity> don't have to worry about passing out from being too sleepy, too [19:34] <ThatSwedishDude> I almost succeeded in doing that a few days ago! [19:34] <@Serenity> the thing about lucidity and WBTB's is timing [19:34] <ThatSwedishDude> not really tried wild that much [19:34] <R00> is the idea to stay awake as long as possible so you remain consciousness through the wake to sleep transition [19:34] <@Serenity> how late into the morning? how long to stay awake? [19:35] <@Serenity> it's different for everyone [19:35] <@Serenity> it's alllll trial and error [19:35] <@Serenity> but... i can take out some of the guesswork [19:35] <R00> yeah i mean everyone will have their own unqiue methods [19:35] <@Serenity> 3 hours is too early [19:35] <@Serenity> 6 hours is too late [19:35] <@Serenity> (why?) [19:35] <@Serenity> because most people only sleep 8-9 hours [19:36] <@Serenity> and if you do your WBTB after 6 hours, it may be too late because you don't have much sleep time left [19:36] <ThatSwedishDude> ah [19:36] <@Serenity> HOWEVER, that's really only mostly true if you are using an LDS [19:36] <@Serenity> (lucid dream supplement( [19:36] <@Serenity> NEVER use an LDS after 6 hours [19:36] <ThatSwedishDude> not even b6? [19:37] <@Serenity> it's a waste of supplement [19:37] <@Serenity> not even [19:37] <ThatSwedishDude> ah got it [19:37] <@Serenity> i mean... go ahead, but you've only got 2 sleep cycles left [19:37] <@Serenity> and they usually take 1 hour to peak [19:37] <@Serenity> so now you've only got 2 hours left of sleeping [19:38] <ThatSwedishDude> and the b6 will stay in the system, giving me full effect all night and morning? [19:38] <@Serenity> not really worth it, imo [19:38] <ThatSwedishDude> k [19:38] <@Serenity> yeah, the B6 has a fairly long half-life, i think [19:38] <@Serenity> and your case will be different than the norm [19:39] <@Serenity> so, people suggest to WBTB around the 5-6 hours of sleeping [19:39] <@Serenity> in my personal experience, if it's after 6 hours, I won't do a WBTB, but I will try to DEILD [19:40] <ThatSwedishDude> ah [19:40] <@Serenity> i'm more successful at DEILDs later in the morning [19:40] <@Serenity> probably because slow wave sleep is so much shorter at this poiny [19:40] <@Serenity> point* [19:40] <@Serenity> and dreams are more vivid [19:41] <@Serenity> brb - getting my food from the fridge [19:41] <@Serenity> it's getting cleaned [19:41] <R00> yeah sure.. [19:41] <R00> ;p [19:41] <Chessica> lol [19:42] <Oothoon> I'll have to read up on the DEILD tutorial. [19:42] <Chessica> mee too.. [19:42] <Chessica> me* [19:42] <@Serenity> kays [19:42] <@Serenity> back [19:42] <Chessica> I just want to thank Serenity for the nice comments in our workbooks, it's very helpful and motivating. Must be a lot of work, though, reading all of our workbooks and comment on them. [19:43] <@Serenity> awww thanks [19:43] <@Serenity> i try to comment where i can [19:43] <ThatSwedishDude> Chessica: why don't you write a DJ? [19:43] <R00> yeah much appreciated [19:43] <@Serenity> it's actually not that bad... i tend to make a ton of posts as a dream guide, anyways [19:44] <@Serenity> so DEILDs are very interesting [19:44] <R00> in our dream workbooks? [19:44] <R00> ;p [19:44] <ThatSwedishDude> hmm deild.. gonna have to try that sometime [19:44] <@Serenity> pro-tip... if you wake early from a lucid dream, try to DEILD immediately [19:44] <@Serenity> phon [19:44] <@Serenity> phone* [19:45] <ThatSwedishDude> is it easy to do? I mean how many failures before u got it right Serenity ? [19:45] <newtz1995> deild is dream exit induced lucid dream right? [19:46] <@Serenity> catching up [19:46] <@Serenity> ummm.... you won't like this answer matte.... [19:46] <@Serenity> i DEILD naturally [19:46] <ThatSwedishDude> darn! [19:46] <@Serenity> i didn't know it was a technique before i did it [19:47] <@Serenity> brb [19:47] <Oothoon> Its amazing how easy it is to LD at times and then when you think eveything is right is dosen't happen. [19:47] <@Serenity> people are booking on for their shifts [19:47] <newtz1995> what is a DEILD? [19:48] <ThatSwedishDude> I've done it a few times, but never on purpose really [19:48] <@Serenity> dream exit induced lucid dream [19:48] <@Serenity> mine are always by accident [19:48] <@Serenity> okay... here;s the deal about DEILDing mindset [19:48] <@Serenity> you guys know that feeling where you had an awesome dream, and it gets interrupted by an alarm [19:48] <ThatSwedishDude> I actually got good dream control, its just that I have trouble getting lucid and staying that way [19:48] <@Serenity> so you hit the snooze button cos you just want to go back to sleep and dream a little longer? [19:49] <@Serenity> this is essentially like a DEILD [19:49] <@Serenity> keep that mentality "Noooo, I don't want to wake up, i just want to dream a little longer" [19:49] <@Serenity> whenever i fade out from a lucid dream, i usually try to imagine the scene is back around me [19:49] <newtz1995> ooo, alright [19:49] <@Serenity> like a daydream [19:50] <@Serenity> i try to see everything back around me 3D and i remind myself it's a dream [19:50] <@Serenity> sometimes, it brings the dream back [19:50] <R00> it really does work [19:50] <@Serenity> and sometimes it won't [19:50] <@Serenity> usually it does, though [19:51] <R00> mainly with me when I have had a wonderful dream with a girl hehe and I want it to continue [19:51] <R00> non-sexual [19:51] <@Serenity> ALSO, i find that a lot of my lucid dreams "end" but they are actually a flase awakening [19:51] <@Serenity> so ALWAYS do a reality check when you wake up [19:51] <@Serenity> false* awakening [19:51] <R00> during a false awakening do you ever get stuck? [19:51] <@Serenity> i have before [19:51] <R00> me too [19:51] <@Serenity> brb - guard visit [19:52] <R00> I though it was WL and I was paralysed [19:52] <Chessica> I don't think I've ever had a FA... [19:52] <R00> its only happened once to me [19:52] <R00> was pretty trippy [19:52] <R00> do you have many LDs Chessica? [19:52] <Chessica> 1 [19:53] <R00> cool thats more than me lol [19:53] <ThatSwedishDude> I never get FAs [19:53] <Chessica> got my first the very night I heard about it for the first time... [19:53] <Chessica> LD's, that is... [19:53] <R00> oh yeah I think I read that somewhere [19:53] <@Serenity> i'll tell you about a couple of mine... [19:53] <R00> mmk [19:53] <newtz1995> brb [19:53] <@Serenity> the first FA i ever caught... i woke up and did a nose pinch... thought, "oh, i can breathe, i must not be awake yet" woke up myself up... [19:54] <@Serenity> *pinch* "That's better... wait... god dammit!" [19:54] <R00> haha [19:54] <R00> I was surprised at how realistic the FA was [19:54] <Oothoon> I'll have a LD about once per month, but can remember many non LDs. [19:55] <@Serenity> i had one today.... i nose pinched, couldn't breathe... checked my watch and it was 10:10am... my alarm was set for 10:30, so i thought i would doze for 20 minutes [19:55] <@Serenity> had another dream, woke up... [19:55] <@Serenity> nose pinch, can't breathe... checked my watch.... 9:52??? what the hell? [19:55] <@Serenity> nose pinched again... definitely awake [19:55] <@Serenity> the first one was the false awakening [19:56] <Chessica> Maybe I have actually had a FA, that clock thing sounds familiar... [19:56] <@Serenity> i also caution the WILD practitioners against what I like to call the INRALD (i'm not really awake lucid dream) [19:57] <@Serenity> you know those nights you get where you're tossing and turning and you don't seem to sleep all night? [19:57] <@Serenity> you could be dreaming that you're awake, tossing and turning [19:57] <@Serenity> case in point... [19:57] <@Serenity> I "woke up" from a short dream... [19:57] <ThatSwedishDude> lol [19:57] <@Serenity> but my head felt kind of funny [19:58] <@Serenity> anyone who has been lucid can tell you, your head sometimes feels a little funny [19:58] <@Serenity> so i wondered, "what if this is a dream right now?" [19:58] <@Serenity> i got up, out of bed... it felt incredibly real [19:59] <@Serenity> i had troubles reading my clock [19:59] <@Serenity> (dream sign) [19:59] <@Serenity> but i finally made out that it said 4:48am.... [19:59] <@Serenity> so i thought "sweet! i don't get up til 5:30, i'm going back to sleep" [19:59] <@Serenity> my boyfriend was "awake" in bed, so i talked to him, instead of sleeping [20:00] <@Serenity> and then my alarm clock woke me up for real [20:00] <Chessica> lol... [20:00] <@Serenity> INRALDs can happen from WILDing, too [20:00] <@Serenity> WILDing isn't always just "OMG it;s a dream, lets step into it" [20:00] <@Serenity> for me, i very rarely experience audio or visual hallucinations [20:01] <@Serenity> i experience physical ones, though [20:01] <@Serenity> like the vibrations [20:01] <@Serenity> i know a guy who is the same as me... he gets the vibrations, and then they stop, and he's still lying on his couch [20:01] <@Serenity> but guess what? [20:01] <@Serenity> that was his transition [20:02] <@Serenity> he's dreaming [20:02] <ThatSwedishDude> cool [20:02] <@Serenity> and his dream picked up right where he left off... on the couch, trying to WILD [20:02] <@Serenity> one might say that's astral projection [20:02] <@Serenity> and it might well be [20:02] <ThatSwedishDude> yeah, what's the difference really? [20:02] <ThatSwedishDude> if u wake up in your bed in both cases [20:03] <@Serenity> i dunno, really [20:03] <@Serenity> i guess AP is more real world, vs dream world [20:03] <ThatSwedishDude> ah [20:03] <@Serenity> as in, if you AP, you should still be experiencing the real world? [20:03] <@Serenity> *shrugs* [20:04] <@Serenity> I've never AP'd, so I couldn't even begin to tell you how it's different [20:04] <Oothoon> I have gotten vibrations a couple of times. I rolled out of bed and walked around. I usually go outside and fly or try to change the dream location. [20:04] <ThatSwedishDude> ok [20:04] <@Serenity> that;s a classic WILD, oothoon [20:05] <R00> a video I just came across about waking/sleep paralysis and WILDs YouTube - Waking Sleep Paralysis: The Holy Grail For New Lucid Dreamers & OBEers - Lucidology 101 Part 2/12 [20:05] <@Serenity> so, i've neglected my job as much as possible for the last hour... but i need to take about 10-15 mins break to catch up and grab the chat logs [20:05] <Chessica> :I have a question about our workbooks.. In the sticky-thread at the top of the workbook forum it says that students are incouraged to comment on each others w.books. Does anybody here mind if I leave a comment in their book every now and then? [20:05] <@Serenity> but if you want to stick around, i'll stick around for a bit Quiet chat tonight... Spoiler for Class three chat log: [18:59] == Oothoon [[email protected]] has joined #dvaintro [19:02] <@Serenity> hi [19:02] <Oothoon> Hello [19:02] <@Serenity> as you can see, you're the first here [19:03] <@Serenity> have you had a chance to read the class 3 tutorial, yet? [19:04] <Oothoon> Yes, very interesting. I tried to WILD last night. I also had a dream right after falling asleep. It seems to happen occasionly to me. [19:05] <@Serenity> WILDs are still something of a mystery to me [19:05] <@Serenity> i don't do them very well :S [19:06] <Oothoon> I used to do hypnotic type MILD inductions. Often after falling I would go into a short dream. [19:07] <@Serenity> i do them mostly, right now. MILDs, that is [19:07] <@Serenity> when i have to sleep for night shifts, I just try to DEILD [19:08] <Oothoon> Does your schedule change much? I think that would make it very difficult. [19:09] <@Serenity> it changes every week [19:09] <@Serenity> as in, twice a week i work night shifts [19:09] <@Serenity> it won't change until january, but then, I'm putting my foot down [19:10] <Oothoon> Good for you!! [19:10] <@Serenity> i had a talk with the HR person, I told her my site (which i supervise) doesn't need 3 full time people [19:11] <@Serenity> we have a girl leaving in january (who is full time)... I told them i only need another part time person to replace her [19:11] == Linkster17 [[email protected]] has joined #dvaintro [19:11] <@Serenity> hey link [19:11] <Linkster17> hey [19:11] <@Serenity> have you read the class 3 tutorial yet? [19:12] <Linkster17> sorry im slighty late and i wonder where everyone is? and yes [19:12] <Oothoon> I purchased some L-theanine yesterday. Should that be taken just before going to sleep? [19:12] <@Serenity> l-theanine is actually better for late in the night [19:13] <@Serenity> as in, if you want to WILD, it's a good idea to take it, as it will make you drowsy, but it doesn't suppress REM [19:13] <@Serenity> well... it doesn't really make you drowsy... it just relaxes [19:14] <@Serenity> a lot of people tend to use L-theanine with other lucid aids [19:14] <@Serenity> it's helpful because many supplements will wake a person up when they peak [19:14] <@Serenity> like galantamine [19:16] <Oothoon> I did have some strange visuals after taking it just before going to bed. [19:16] <@Serenity> hmm... [19:16] <@Serenity> that's sort of odd... [19:17] <@Serenity> in my experience with L-theanine, it killed any visuals [19:17] <@Serenity> but then, i'm probably the odd one [19:17] <@Serenity> but i took it with the galantamine/choline combo, and my dreams were quite lame [19:18] <Oothoon> We see, I'll try it next time I WILD; hopefully tonight. [19:18] <@Serenity> it should very much help with it if it makes you see visuals, you may have an easier time transitioning into a dream [19:19] <@Serenity> my transitions are very tactile, and it's hard to determine if it really happened or not [19:19] <@Serenity> the first time i took G/C, i had no idea that I even transitioned at all [19:20] <Linkster17> whenever i try to do wbtb to WILD or something, i always am really tired and i just usually fall asleep because i dont bother to get up immediately lol [19:20] <@Serenity> you know the point of a WBTB is to leave your bed, right? [19:21] <@Serenity> although, sometimes what i do is i drift in N1 sleep for a bit [19:22] <@Serenity> but i still have yet to miss a WBTB (watch this shoot me in the foot tonight) [19:22] <@Serenity> i'm a light sleeper, though [19:23] <Oothoon> That also happens to me sometimes. You have to force yourself to get up. [19:23] <Linkster17> yes, but i feel so fatigued and my mind always convinces me to stay in bed all cozy lol. need to fight this. and im a heavy sleeper, although i always know if someone is going to enter my room because i wake up before they even get to the door [19:23] <@Serenity> link, you're a teen, right? [19:23] <@Serenity> you're also fighting genetics, here [19:24] <@Serenity> teens are genetically pre-dispositioned to sleep odd hours and sleep heavier, usually [19:25] <@Serenity> Teens and sleep: Why you need it and how to get enough [19:25] <Oothoon> After waking up go over any dreams you have had. This gets me a little more motivated if I can remember a good dream. [19:25] <Linkster17> yes i am and yes i know. but i will win this fight, eventually. and ive always been a heavy sleeper, even as a kid, if it was pouring and gaint booms of thunder were all around, id be sound asleep [19:27] <@Serenity> that's like my BF, too. sleeps like a rock [19:27] <Linkster17> lol [19:28] <@Serenity> but oothoon is also right... usually thinking about and recording my dreams wakes me up a little and gets me in the right mindest [19:28] <@Serenity> i have an idea for a motivator for you... [19:28] <@Serenity> drink a couple of glasses of water before bed [19:28] <@Serenity> you'll likely wake up naturally in the middle of the night needing to go to the washroom [19:29] <@Serenity> so... you get two benefits... you will wake up naturally ending a REM cycle [19:29] <@Serenity> and it won't be via alarm, which leads to better recall [19:29] <@Serenity> oh, 3rd benefit, you'll need to leave your bed, for obvious reasons [19:30] <Linkster17> i will try this tonight, and haha [19:30] <Oothoon> I have a small computer in the bedroom hooked up to the TV and speakers. I have it programmed to wake me up. [19:32] <Linkster17> I have speakers in my room, i would use them but i cant go waking up everyone in my house lol [19:32] <Oothoon> You can probably use an alarm clock just as easily, but the computer plays my name very softly telling me to wake up. It also plays some binaural beats to help fall back to sleep. [19:32] <@Serenity> are they (the binaurls) helpful when they are just on the computer speakers like that? [19:32] <@Serenity> binaurals* [19:34] <@Serenity> i ask because, the CDs i bought say to listen to them with headphones [19:34] <@Serenity> or to have my speakers on either side of my head [19:34] <Oothoon> Right, background noise that is at a low frequenc, like brain waves. [19:35] <@Serenity> i use theta waves at times for meditation [19:35] <Oothoon> Right, it works ok without. My speakers are at either side of my bed. [19:36] <@Serenity> was there any part of the techniques i listed that i can now go over in better detail? or more indepth, rather? [19:37] <Oothoon> Is there a way to increase the amount of HI. [19:38] <@Serenity> there can be... let me look up a tutorial [19:38] <@Serenity> there's a friend of mine who does image streaming [19:38] <Linkster17> sounds familar [19:39] <Oothoon> Sometimes I will be just inundated with HI. Almost like watching a movie. When this happens, slipping into a LD is almost gareented. [19:39] <@Serenity> "Facts About Image Streaming: Image streaming can open the mind to a flow of imagery as potent as that of any dream, and can often be just as vivid as a vivid dream. Unlike dreaming, image streaming can be practiced while a person is wide awake, and can be done almost anywhere. When a person first begins image streaming, their image streams will probably be weak, since they have spent most of their life ignoring and suppressing these kinds of images, however as a person practices image streaming," [19:39] <@Serenity> "they will find that their images will grow stronger and more vivid as their practice progresses. Although the book I read on image streaming suggests performing it in a position called the gravity position, in which ones legs are put up on a chair to be higher than the rest of the persons' body, I have had success with image streaming while lying in bed at WBTB times." [19:40] <@Serenity> Steps: "Either sit in a comfortable chair, lie down in the gravity position, or lie down in bed like I do, and begin describing the flow of mental images that come through your mind." [19:40] <@Serenity> "It is important to describe the images that come to you out loud, as this provides the feedback necessary to cause the images to flow better, and it is suggested that they be spoken to either another person or a tape recorder." [19:40] <@Serenity> "I usually begin by describing the images out loud to myself when starting out, and then start recording them on a digital voice recorder when my subconscious takes over and begins providing the images." [19:41] <@Serenity> "It is important to use all five senses when describing the images. What does the image look, feel, taste, smell, and sound like? " [19:41] <@Serenity> "All descriptions should in the present tense, such as "I am now looking at this large lemon, which is very large and yellow, has a smooth texture on the outside, tastes very bitter, and has a strong smell to it. I can taste the bitterness of the lemon as I put it in my mouth." " [19:41] <@Serenity> "One way to get started with image streaming is to start describing something in your physical surroundings out loud, such as the room you are in, or an outdoor scene that you might pass during the day. You might also recall a beautiful landscape or other scene and describe it out loud." [19:42] <@Serenity> "There is no right or wrong way to describe something, and it is also unnecessary to see anything, as images can come in many different forms, such as a feeling, a sound, in addition to something you might see. Describe whatever you are experiencing out loud." [19:42] <@Serenity> "The important thing is to stay alert to the thoughts and impressions you receive, and describe out loud in detail any images or impressions that comes to your awareness." [19:42] <@Serenity> "Don't worry about accuracy. It can sometimes be helpful to exaggerate or make up parts of your description, in order to give the image more vividness and life, which in turn can sometimes start an even better thought flow." [19:43] <@Serenity> Quotes are credit to iadr [19:43] <Oothoon> Yes, I will definatly try Image Streaming. Can you remeber the book title. [19:44] <@Serenity> that this came from? [19:44] <Oothoon> Yes. [19:44] <Linkster17> i read this post [19:44] <Linkster17> it was awhile ago though [19:44] <@Serenity> it's not from a book. it's a tutorial written by someone named iadr [19:45] <@Serenity> let's see if i can find his DV post... i linked this from another site [19:46] <@Serenity> hmm :S [19:47] <Oothoon> I can search for it later. [19:48] <Linkster17> i looked his name for all his posts and i dont see it [19:49] <@Serenity> i wonder if he removed it? [19:51] <Linkster17> maybe [19:51] <@Serenity> another way you could probably induce more HI is by starting a "chatter" [19:52] <Linkster17> ? [19:52] <@Serenity> it could be a conversation with yourself, a dream character, dream guide, or whatever [19:52] <@Serenity> but start up a conversation in your head... sometimes, HI will accomodate it [19:54] <Oothoon> This is good. Something new to try. [19:54] <Linkster17> when you do the chatter, is it anytime or just when you are having HI's [19:55] <@Serenity> when i've done it, it's usually after i finish relaxing [19:55] <@Serenity> i usually am trying to induce hallucinations at this point [19:55] <@Serenity> i'm a very tactile WILD'er though [19:56] <@Serenity> so i am usually trying to induce what i called "the tetis effect:" in the tutorial [19:56] <@Serenity> tetris* [19:58] <Oothoon> I remember when I was little and was out fishing all day. I would see bobbers bobbing in the waves all night. [19:58] <Linkster17> and how do you do that serenity? [19:58] <Linkster17> just imagine it? [19:59] <@Serenity> yeah, like imagine what it feels like, either bouncing on a trampolene or swinging on a swing [20:00] <Linkster17> ok then [20:00] <@Serenity> but then... really try to feel it [20:00] <@Serenity> or, imagine that you can feel it [20:01] <Oothoon> Thanks, Serenity; you have given me a few more ideas. [20:01] <@Serenity> if you don't like those... imagine flying [20:01] <@Serenity> what it feels like to fly across the sky [20:01] <@Serenity> no problem [20:02] <Linkster17> thanks [20:02] <@Serenity> i'll stick around, but i guess class is officially over, for today >.> Spoiler for Class four chat log: 19:00 Oothoon Hello 19:00 Serenity hey 19:00 Serenity well... you're the first tonight 19:01 Serenity have you had a chance to look over the last tutorial? 19:02 Oothoon Yes 19:02 *** newtz1995 joined #dvaintro 19:02 newtz1995 hello 19:03 newtz1995 am I on time? 19:03 Oothoon Close enough. 19:04 newtz1995 sweet as 19:04 Serenity hey 19:04 Serenity sorry guys, i'll be off and on for this hour - am at work 19:04 *** sisyphus joined #dvaintro 19:04 Serenity hey sisyphus 19:04 sisyphus hiya 19:05 Serenity did you all have a chance to read the last couple of tutorials? 19:05 sisyphus yes, just now 19:05 sisyphus (don't tell my boss) 19:05 Serenity since this is the last class, i'd like to take the time to answer any questions you may have from any tutorial 19:07 Serenity bueller? bueller? 19:07 newtz1995 I have one. 19:07 Serenity shoot 19:07 newtz1995 besides mantras and a journal, are there any other ways can you improve recall? 19:08 Serenity i would suggest maybe keeping an awake journal 19:08 Serenity as in just a regular journal that recounts your day 19:09 Serenity one notion of dream yoga is that even being awake is just another facet of dreaming. as each moment passes, it fades into memory, just like dreaming 19:09 sisyphus i have a few questions 19:09 Serenity go ahead 19:10 newtz1995 thanks, I might start one 19:10 sisyphus regarding DEILD. is it better to try earlier or later in the night? 19:10 sisyphus and/or what other factors indicate a good chance to DEILD 19:10 Serenity for me, it's best later in the night 19:10 Serenity usually within the last 2 hours of waking up 19:11 Serenity that's when REM is longest (and deep sleep is almost non-existant) 19:11 Serenity and dreams are often more vivid and stable 19:11 sisyphus so how long would you try for a DEILD before "giving up" 19:11 Serenity factors... usually that the dream you woke up from was a strong dream, as in, you could slip back into it pretty easily 19:11 sisyphus too me, the window seems like just a few seconds 19:11 Serenity if you wake up and you struggle to recall a dream, you're not going to DEILD from that 19:12 Serenity the window is pretty small 19:12 Serenity there's no set time, but if you've been laying there longer than a minute, it isn't going to happen 19:12 Serenity i generally try for about a minute. i can usually tell if i'm going to chain back into a dream 19:12 newtz1995 brb 19:13 Serenity if i've been lying there and not feeling like i'm going to get pulled back into a dream, i will give up 19:13 Serenity brb 19:13 sisyphus hmm ok cool 19:14 Oothoon Should you get up for a while and try again. 19:15 newtz1995 I use MILD, so when I'm repeating my mantra, should I focus on remembering my dreams, lucid dreaming or both? 19:16 Serenity back sorry :S 19:16 newtz1995 cool 19:16 Serenity Oothoon, it IS possible to chain a dream after you've gotten up 19:17 Serenity however, at this point, it's more like a MILD, and not a DEILD 19:18 Serenity newtz, when I MILD usually i focus on a dream that i became lucid in, and I remember the point i realized it was a dream, and i remember being lucid in the dream 19:18 Serenity but the main part is to focus on the point of realization 19:18 Serenity you can use a non-lucid dream, also 19:18 Serenity it's actually BEST if you use the dream you just woke up from 19:18 Serenity your brain is going to be more inclined to think about it, anyways 19:19 Serenity just imagine yourself back inside the dream, but imagine you realize it's a dream, and do something you would have done if you had dreamed it 19:19 Serenity as in stabilizing and completing a goal 19:19 newtz1995 okay sweet 19:19 Serenity think about this a few times over and repeat your mantra 19:19 Serenity you should do this a few times as you're falling back to sleep 19:20 sisyphus got another q 19:20 sisyphus regarding WILD and WBTB, would you try these every night or no? 19:21 Serenity if you have every night to try them, then yes! 19:21 Serenity the more practice, the better 19:21 Serenity that said, do you find you fall asleep too easy, or you can't fall asleep? 19:22 sisyphus I have trouble falling asleep 19:22 Serenity do you meditate at all? 19:22 sisyphus yes actually 19:22 sisyphus but haven't tried it during a WBTB 19:23 Serenity starting a WILD is very much like meditation 19:23 Serenity you'll want to do some mental clearing and relaxation techniques first 19:24 Serenity when i start mine, the first thing i focus on is scanning my body for any tension, and i do some deep breathing 19:24 Serenity (i used to not be able to pass out, too, i found this really helps me) 19:24 Serenity then, I start counting the 1 - this is a dream, 2 - this is a dream 19:25 Serenity ("this is a dream" is my personal mantra... i've actually fallen asleep and the first words out of my mouth is just this! ) 19:25 sisyphus ok, so let me rephrase the question a bit 19:26 newtz1995 guys ill be back in 10 minutes or so 19:26 sisyphus should I try WILD every night as a matter of practice and discipline (like writing in my DJ)... 19:26 sisyphus or should I only try when I feel like I have good chances of it working? 19:26 Serenity hmm.... well... in terms of discipline and consistency, yes 19:27 Serenity but... "chances of it working" is a little ambiguous 19:27 Serenity personally, if I'm having troubles sleeping in the first of the night, or if its a night i won't get more than 8 hours of sleep, i won't do one 19:28 Serenity if i have to sleep during the daylight hours, i won't do one 19:28 sisyphus mostly i'm thinking of just feeling too sleepy or unmotivated 19:28 sisyphus depending of the time or my mood, etc 19:29 Serenity unmotivated isn't going to help any, unfortunately 19:29 Serenity but sleepy, you can fix sleepy 19:29 Serenity that said, you need to consider what's causing the sleepy 19:29 Serenity if you haven't slept well a few days previous, don't even do a WBTB at all... just sleep 19:30 Serenity it's a lot harder to get lucid when you're too tired. in my dreams, i will literally ignore dream signs (ignore getting lucid) if i'm too tired 19:31 sisyphus ha. hit the snooze on a dreamsign 19:31 Serenity pretty much 19:32 Serenity other questions? concerns? wonderments? 19:32 Oothoon I have a goal to ask DCs for help in becoming lucid. Do you think that will work. 19:33 Serenity it's worked for some people... it hasn't worked well for me, personally 19:33 Serenity i asked my own dream guide, and he's pretty much a failure when it comes to getting me lucid.... >.> 19:34 Serenity not really his fault though... if i'm not going to get lucid, it's just not going to happen... 19:35 Oothoon Dream signs are common, but DCs who actually talk about LDing seem more rare. 19:36 Serenity i think the key is, if you want DC's to make you lucid, you need to imagine it happen before you go to sleep 19:38 sisyphus oh, about control and spinning to teleport.. 19:39 Serenity yesss 19:39 sisyphus i've tried and failed at this many times 19:39 Serenity spinning doesn't work well for me either 19:39 newtz1995 alright guys back :/ 19:39 Serenity i use a very tricky method 19:40 Serenity i close my eyes and snap my fingers 19:40 Serenity it sounds easy, but most people wake up when they close/open their eyes 19:40 sisyphus do you visualize the scene first or just go for it? 19:40 Oothoon Can you to teleport someone you know, or to a specific location. 19:40 Serenity brb 19:40 sisyphus like, do you have to prepare yourself for it? 19:41 Oothoon Be right back. Had to look it up. 19:43 newtz1995 ifu spin I think u can end up just about anywhere 19:44 Serenity boss on the phone 19:44 Serenity :S * 19:49 Serenity still talking... >.> 19:51 Serenity back! 19:51 Serenity okays... 19:51 sisyphus wb 19:51 Serenity sisyphus, no, i don't have to prepare myself to close my eyes 19:51 Serenity it just... i don't know, i never thought of it as something that's bad 19:52 Serenity it's more of a mindset of "why should it wake me up?" and so it doesn't 19:52 Serenity Oothoon, you had a question? 19:52 sisyphus well I was more thinking of preparing your destination 19:53 sisyphus like do you have an image of the place or thing? or just the name? a feeling? 19:53 Serenity yes, you should definitely have a destination in mind 19:53 Oothoon Another goal is to meet some people. Have you had any success meeting people you know. 19:53 Serenity try to imagine the location as best you can 19:53 Serenity Oothoon, as in a shared dream? or just dream characters of people i know? 19:54 Oothoon Meet dream characters. 19:54 Serenity sisyphus, having a clear destination will probably increase your chances of being able to teleport successfully 19:55 Serenity oothoon, so far, i've had some good success at meeting the beatles 19:55 Oothoon All right. 19:56 Serenity i've also managed to meet friends 19:56 Serenity however a real life brother of mine is evading me >.> 19:57 Serenity usually, i just call out to the dream and ask to speak to someone 19:57 Serenity and they'll appear 19:57 Serenity sometimes, a character i want to meet finds me 19:58 Serenity i think the sub-c just knows i want to meet them 19:58 Oothoon I would like to see if a dream is shared after I meet them in a dream. To see if they have any recall. 19:58 Serenity but if neither of those happen, then i usually start looking for them around corners and in other rooms 19:59 Serenity if there are DC's around, you can ask them if they have seen the person you're looking for 20:00 Oothoon I'm ready to give it a go tonight. 20:00 Serenity good luck! 20:01 sisyphus thanks so much Serenity, I should get going 20:01 Serenity class is officially over, but if you have any more questions, i will stick around for a bit 20:01 *** sisyphus left #dvaintro ("") 20:02 newtz1995 thanks for the class Serenity 20:02 Serenity remember that there's an extension until the 8th of october to complete all outstanding assignments 20:02 newtz1995 learnt quite a bit 20:02 Oothoon Thanks so much for your class. Bye. 20:02 Serenity awesome i hope it serves you well! 20:02 *** Oothoon left #dvaintro ("")