Thread: Sleep Paralysis Demystified

Originally Posted by Sageous

No, Mzzkc, you can do more. And will. Many of us are counting on that...

If I get the opportunity, sure.

LDing is on my back-burner right now due to life and what have you.

Originally Posted by sivason

I need to admit that when I made my first post, it was late and I was actually feeling pissy,because a member who follows Mzzkc likes toattack newbies who 'dare' say they entered SP, and call them (imply) that they know nothing. He does this dispite that they are using the term correctly for the LD version of SP. I find it sad when someone tries to make them selves feel smart by attacking raw beginners.

No worries; I had copious amounts of rum in me when I wrote mine.

Originally Posted by sivason

I need to admit that when I made my first post, it was late and I was actually feeling pissy,because a member who follows Mzzkc likes toattack newbies who 'dare' say they entered SP, and call them (imply) that they know nothing. He does this dispite that they are using the term correctly for the LD version of SP. I find it sad when someone tries to make them selves feel smart by attacking raw beginners.

I have an idea. Lets agree on a term that we can use to describe the things SP is used for in LDing and try to replace SP with it. I have a random suggestion. How abou S.A. for Sleep Awareness, as in the sensations you experience that allow you to know your body has fallen into sleep? Any one know if S.A. is already being used for any LD terms? Then instead of being harse with beginners we can just steer them into thinking about Sleep Awareness instead of SP as a marker for where they are at in their WILD attempt.

It would not have to be SA if either of you have a better idea for a term, but I do feel a term for the stage of awareness when your body has reach true sleep is important, and because it has an S in it, maybe it would be an easy transition.

I know this is a late reply, but I like this term and think it would be a great substitution. The thing that bothers me most about using the term 'SP', is that on the (admittedly rare) occasion where a new user to the site suffers from the medical condition ISP (isolated sleep paralysis) and posts question about it, they are given a lot of misinformation due entirely to the ambiguity of the term SP. I've recently seen instances where the person was very obviously suffering from ISP (waking into a paralyzed body and accompanied by evil presence on a regular basis), but was given responses such as "You're so lucky to naturally have SP! You can use this to WILD!" ISP is a terrifying experience, and certainly not something you are lucky to experience. It very frustrating for me to see new users who are undergoing an already very confusing experience only be given misinformation and further confusion.

This thread is a mess. Too many claims without source. Even tough I agree with some of the people (like the OP), we still lack sources. Not providing sources is what puts you vulnerable to people refuting your ideas without disproving your sources, and that's why Mzzkc wasted quite some time explaining the same thing over and over along the topic.

An example:

"Sleep paralysis does seem to manifest in different ways for different people. So many factors in the human body, so many variables, it's impossible to make hard rules about physiological conditions." Nope, because according to studies: "(..)whereas
SP hallucinations are very strongly (78–98% of cases report
fear during SP) associated with fear (Cheyne 2001)."

Another issue:
-When people refer to medical SP, it's not medical or non-medical: SP is SP, and it's a medical term. The point of the OP was to distinguish Sp from other sympthons of non-REM.

Besides, we're adding complexity to the thread without much need, and being incoherent. Example:

"ISP= condition where a person chronically goes into SP throughout their lifetimes (rare)[/I]" This is not ISP, it's RISP. I know that RISPS is still ISP, but non-reocurrent ISP is just not chronic.

Definition of chronically: in a habitual and longstanding manner.

Solution: just focus on what really matters, aka, removing SP from the headlights. SP is rare, ISP is rare, and RISP, as the name says, gives frequent SP/ISP.
We've concluded that majority of people performing WILD is not having RISP, otherwise they would report it way before any lucid dreaming commentaries. They don't have ISP, because ISP is totally infrequent. And they do not have SP, because the 2 forms of SP are ISP and RISP, which we concluded are not the case of most people.

So, there's no SP. That part we already know, if the OP had provided sources and a little background information in the first post, we (and especially he) would have had spent way less time on questions and misunderstandings like the ones we see along the pages The deal is, why even mention SP? Remove it altogether because if we perform a analysis over the reports of frequent WILDers, I'll bet no one will report RISP pre-lucid dreaming discovery. I thought we were all here for the main purpose of helping new people. And you certainly do not help them letting them carry on with the SP material.

Sources used

Zoth00, please help me out with some logic here. If I stay aware and my body falls asleep, that is the intended goal in the first stages of a WILD attempt, correct? OK, if I stay aware and truely can observe myself sleeping and experience the sensations involved in sleep, and I experience the chemical changes that keep me from acting out my dream, what am I experiencing? I am asking, if the chemical process that prevents REM from resulting in bodily movement, is directly preceived by me (because I am fully aware and yet asleep) then what is it I am experiencing?

Most people would say SP is what prevents REM bodily movement. If I, in full conciousness, feel the chemical change happen, what would you call it? Is that not what the term SP is being used for in lucid dream forums? If you feel that only a medical disorder can be called SP, then what if I simply stay 100% aware through all the stages of sleep? In that case, I clearly would be aware during REM atonia, and any other state of sleep. Let me know what you think about this. The fact is, I can stay fully aware through every sleep phase, and maintain the state for say 2 hours or more, so if SP is part of every nights sleep, how could any one claim it is not part of WILD? If experiencing the same chemical changes, in full awareness and full sleep, does not count as SP (because? it is not scaring me?) then what is it called?

Can I interject a quick clarification that might help, Sivason?

If I understand all this correctly (and who besides Mzzkc really does?), there truly is no such thing as SP ... At least in terms of WILD among healthy practitioners.

"SP" as we seem to define it here is the waking-awareness witnessing of REM atonia, it's not a thing unto itself. In other words, Zoth is right; there us no SP, per se, only conscious recognition of a normal sleep function. Therefore, building SP up as a significant event may be inappropriate at best and significantly, literally, misleading when that event is lent the kind of importance it is given on this site.

Sorry to interrupt...

Originally Posted by zoth00

Another issue:
-When people refer to medical SP, it's not medical or non-medical: SP is SP, and it's a medical term. The point of the OP was to distinguish Sp from other sympthons of non-REM.

Besides, we're adding complexity to the thread without much need, and being incoherent. Example:

"ISP= condition where a person chronically goes into SP throughout their lifetimes (rare)[/I]" This is not ISP, it's RISP. I know that RISPS is still ISP, but non-reocurrent ISP is just not chronic.

Well first of all, my post was to address the people who have stated (please read the entire thread) that they've experienced true SP while trying to WILD. You can't sweep a condition under the rug and act like it doesn't happen to anyone. And in my opinion, there really isn't a need to add "Recurrent" to the title....especially when 'RISP is still ISP". Like I said in my previous post, there are measures that can be taken to avoid it all together, and it also mentions it in the article you linked.

Originally Posted by zoth00

Definition of chronically: in a habitual and longstanding manner.

You know there are more than one definitions to that word right? I hope you didn't ignore the other definitions in the medical dictionary.

Originally Posted by zoth00

Solution: just focus on what really matters, aka, removing SP from the headlights.

SP is rare, ISP is rare, and RISP, as the name says, gives frequent SP/ISP.
We've concluded that majority of people performing WILD is not having RISP, otherwise they would report it way before any lucid dreaming commentaries. They don't have ISP, because ISP is totally infrequent. And they do not have SP, because the 2 forms of SP are ISP and RISP, which we concluded are not the case of most people.



So, there's no SP. That part we already know, if the OP had provided sources and a little background information in the first post, we (and especially he) would have had spent way less time on questions and misunderstandings like the ones we see along the pages The deal is, why even mention SP? Remove it altogether because if we perform a analysis over the reports of frequent WILDers, I'll bet no one will report RISP pre-lucid dreaming discovery. I thought we were all here for the main purpose of helping new people. And you certainly do not help them letting them carry on with the SP material.

Sources used

I browsed your article (control+F'd for good measure), and "reoccurrent isolated sleep paralysis" isn't mentioned in it; neither is "recurrent isolated sleep paralysis" for that matter. However, I found "Chronic SP"....how neat. And on that note.

You can call it RISP, CSP, ISP, CHiPs patrol, or whatever you like, but the bottom line is that a handful of people actually experience the inability to move while trying to WILD. They also experience it while trying to go to sleep and wake up. If they had it happen to them chronically, they probably decided to google it and found out what SP was. I'm here to tell them that there are two types of SP: REM Atonia, and Isolated Sleep Paralysis. Most people will have an episode of NREM SP once in their lives, and medical professionals will chalk it up to SP. When they have it over and over without any other conditions except the possibility of narcolepsy, they call it Isolated Sleep Paralysis.

SOURCE:
ChokrovertyS. Sleep and its disorders. In: Bradley WG, Daroff RB, Fenichel GM, Jankovic J, eds. Neurology in Clinical Practice. 5th ed. Philadelphia, Pa: Butterworth-Heinemann Elsevier; 2008:chap 72.

Also, can you come up with some newer sources? Nothing in your article is newer than 2001.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Can I interject a quick clarification that might help, Sivason?

If I understand all this correctly (and who besides Mzzkc really does?), there truly is no such thing as SP ... At least in terms of WILD among healthy practitioners.

"SP" as we seem to define it here is the waking-awareness witnessing of REM atonia, it's not a thing unto itself. In other words, Zoth is right; there us no SP, per se, only conscious recognition of a normal sleep function. Therefore, building SP up as a significant event may be inappropriate at best and significantly, literally, misleading when that event is lent the kind of importance it is given on this site.

Sorry to interrupt...

Good Point!
Funny thing, I understand that we should find a new less, confusing way to teach WILD. However, I need Zoth or mzzyk to explain my above post.

Thanks for your thoughs.

Originally Posted by sivason

[B]Zoth00, please help me out with some logic here.

First, doesn't matter if most people say it's SP what prevent REM bodily movement. The correct term is REM atonia, because, well, that's the process that happens. Secondly, you (and we all) have to be very careful in our words: if you're asking me something like "what is that I AM experiencing" are you taking into account that your situation may differ? Because even taking into account the qualia of WILD (sageous would rather say the qualia of lucid dreaming I bet ^^), chemical changes, you can't expect someone to say this and this, and you say that, and then we all agree it's different ways of describing a phenomenon. Like the OP said, the characteristics of SP are pretty much typical on the board. Now this reply is also for Auron, and hopefully you will see that even the claim that

Originally Posted by Auron

You can call it RISP, CSP, ISP, CHiPs patrol, or whatever you like, but the bottom line is that a handful of people actually experience the inability to move while trying to WILD.

is very tricky. Why? Let's use logic:

- You're trying to do a WILD after around 7 hours of sleep. You're a new lucid dreamer, so you take some time to calm down. 'No problem' you think, I'm ready, I just need to not move and fall asleep.

- How can you claim a "handful" of people experiencing paralysis when they try to WILD? You mean they actually tried to move, risking the WILD? Did they encounter the typical sympthons symptoms? You see, it's obvious that a handful of people experience occasional episodes of SP when they try to WILD, but you're just saying that is likely? I agree. But due so many reports, I don't see the point on pointing out that a small percentage of people is experiencing SP, since that's it, a small percentage. Now, do you want information for a small percentage of people? Yes. You want to turn that information into something that applies to the rest of the sample? Nope. The fact is this was already done. Now I'm not interested who says something wrong or right: I know that this is a forum, eventually someone will correct that person, and I totally agree with some complaints of how this is done (aka, the people that have pleasure in pointing out the others are wrong instead of wanting to help people/contribute for the discussion, see here's the proof I've read the whole thread auron ). The problem is the source. There's a source that is not even reliable that started spreading "SP is a part of WILD!" and it made it here (here: internet). Now, as we all may know, you can't expect people to pick a guide about WILD, read SP, and then not apply things like self-fulfilling prophecy. How about that? One person that got a WILD attempt looking like it included SP

Now sivanson, what are you experiencing? Is it what the majority of people report? This is important. In another related note Auron, you claim REM atonia as a type of SP. This seems contradicting: if REM atonia happens all nights, and SP is refered as conscious perception of being paralysed, then how can REM atonia be a kind of SP? Because that would imply that SP is not always consciously perceived. But, on the other hand, if we read this title (and this is to show you why newer sources don't mean more reliable sources Auron). So, more contradicting stuff, which is bad. And this study is from 2012! Off topic: can you find the conflicting information?

-Title vs "Now, researchers have discovered the brain chemicals that keep the body still in sleep."
-"The brain chemicals kick into action during rapid eye movement (REM) sleep" this is REM atonia. What about N-REM SP?
-"This paralysis keeps people still even as their brains are acting out fantastical scenarios" Once again, they can't be talking about SP as we know it.
-"it's also the reason people sometimes experience sleep paralysis, or the experience of waking up while the muscles are still frozen" okay, let's be forgiving and ignore the fact that they only refer to hypnopompic SP. But notice how they mention Sleep paralysis now (as opposed to the first paragraph, if you take into account the title), as something far more specific, coming out as a variant of REM atonia (and not the other way around). 2012 study people!

This only hints me that we're missing something (whoever is right): we can't go much further as to specify exactly SP seems or doesn't seem to be, as we (correct me someone if I'm wrong) are just onironauts without a clear (or should the word be complete) understandement of the entire sleep process. Sure we can get sources and gladiate ourselves; sure we can point out illogical claims: the only thing that we seem fit (and this is why we're here I would guess): it's to attribute the majority of reports of WILD attempts to the phenomenon of Sleep paralysis as false.

Now, I'm surrounded by moderators, dream guides, and a WILD teacher. It's the perfect opportunity to ask:

- Sageous, how many true SP have you found in your student reports?

- Dream guides, how hard time do you have clearing this SP misconceptions when you're helping people, and especially, answering beginners questions?

- Moderators, although a forum is public place, let's reflect on this fact: a person walks into the website, sees a WILD guide that relies in SP (like this one). Now, people get that information, and some of them even try to WILD. Then they come to the forum with doubts, or even join DVA. Isn't this contradicting information? I don't see how it helps the work of the dream guides or sageous's work.


Now, other aspect that sivason mentioned (and it seems important) is that some people go out and say "you are wrong that's not SP" bla bla. Now, this is no problem in a discussion topic (aslong as people respect eachothers, the more "attacks" the better if the contribute to the discussion), but even though dream guides aren't meant to be right about everything, how are we helping them in cases of conflicting information? If I see a moderator refering something in a super famous guide, and then a dream guide saying "don't worry, SP is not likely to occur", wouldn't that interfere with your WILD process?

Melanieb mentioned "Working to make a comprehensive list/guide of all the possible experiences would be more useful to the forum". I assume this as dream guide policy. But in case of SP, we all testify that this just makes a dream guide job (OR any person that wants to help) harder.

PS: I skipped a lot of discussion regarding Sivason and Auron in purpose. Let's "gladiate" later and focus on the main issue first ?

Zoth, nice post, thank you. So, it sounds to me like you have clarified the point I was asking about. That being, that you are saying, we experience awareness of REM atonia, but that to call that the same thing as SP is problematic,at the least, and flat out wrong in general. I am fine with that. So, the short answer to my question, many WILDers may be preceiving REM atonia, and some how we have started to just accept the term SP as also meaning REM atonia (which is a poor fit). That is what I think you are getting at.
I agree that it would be great if somehow we could erase the misconceptions about SP vs REM atonia from the culture.
As a dream guide, to answer your question: I have to correct new members misconceptions about SP (REM atonia mislabeled) at least twice a week. It is the largest circulated misunderstanding I run into.

Originally Posted by zoth00

First, doesn't matter if most people say it's SP what prevent REM bodily movement. The correct term is REM atonia, because, well, that's the process that happens. Secondly, you (and we all) have to be very careful in our words: if you're asking me something like "what is that I AM experiencing" are you taking into account that your situation may differ? Because even taking into account the qualia of WILD (sageous would rather say the qualia of lucid dreaming I bet ^^), chemical changes, you can't expect someone to say this and this, and you say that, and then we all agree it's different ways of describing a phenomenon. Like the OP said, the characteristics of SP are pretty much typical on the board.

I totally agree with all of this.

Originally Posted by zoth00

Now this reply is also for Auron, and hopefully you will see that even the claim that is very tricky. Why? Let's use logic:

- You're trying to do a WILD after around 7 hours of sleep. You're a new lucid dreamer, so you take some time to calm down. 'No problem' you think, I'm ready, I just need to not move and fall asleep.

- How can you claim a "handful" of people experiencing paralysis when they try to WILD? You mean they actually tried to move, risking the WILD? Did they encounter the typical sympthons symptoms? You see, it's obvious that a handful of people experience occasional episodes of SP when they try to WILD, but you're just saying that is likely?

The following are quotes from this thread. Keep in mind that their are three people in this thread that suffer from ISP, and they spent several posts saying "Um, actually I get SP". I decided to address them, because I suffer from it myself. Which brings the total up to four.

Spoiler for dem quotes:

Originally Posted by dms111

Sleep paralysis does not have to be accompanied by fear. I experienced sleep paralysis twice before I knew what lucid dreaming was. I felt the fear. Later I learned about lucid dreaming. Later I learned how to WILD by inducing sleep paralysis.

I experience sleep paralysis frequently now that I've learned how to WILD. I feel I've woken during the night and I can not move.
Do you think people can't experience sleep paralysis as their entering sleep? That it only occurs as they're waking up?

Originally Posted by djv

No. I am not trying to lie still at this point. I try to roll out of bed, but only my dream body does. I have remained consciuos to the point of sleep paralysis in REM sleep. I am aware of my body. It is my technique to focus on my body. I recognize exactly the point where I can try to get out of bed, knowing that I physically can't.

If I have a dream body - then I am paralyzed. That is a normal occurance that prevents you from acting out your dreams.

I do not ruin my WILD, because my WILD attempts are successful when I have noticed the point where my body is paralyzed and I simply roll out of bed. Dream scenes rarely (maybe 1 times in 20) appear before my eyes for me to enter. Most of my WILD's start as pitch black dreams in my bedroom. I have to use different techniques to achieve vision within these LD's.

Originally Posted by hermine_hesse

I suffered from chronic episodes of sleep paralysis for about ten years. When it first started, I would suddenly wake up in the middle of the night. Without reason, I would instantly be overcome with an overwhelming and visceral terror. I wanted to scream or jump out of bed, but would be completely unable make a sound or move anything but my eyes no matter how hard I tried.

Originally Posted by zoth00

I agree. But due so many reports, I don't see the point on pointing out that a small percentage of people is experiencing SP, since that's it, a small percentage.

By logic don't you think a dreaming site would have an increased percentage of people who suffer from different parasomnias? Because it does. How many people you know that are into lucid dreaming? How many people are into it on this site? How many people you know that get lucid every night? How many times have you come across someone that does that on this site? And the list goes on. You can't say it's just a small percentage, because a lot of people who come to this site have came here because of other issues regarding sleep.

Originally Posted by zoth00

Now, do you want information for a small percentage of people? Yes. You want to turn that information into something that applies to the rest of the sample? Nope. The fact is this was already done.

Were they done right? Did they even mention REM atonia or Isolated Sleep Paralysis? Did they say "hey is this is a WILD guide for people who suffer from isolated sleep paralysis? No...most of the time they generalize that "SP" is the next step. So that part has to be taken out or rewritten. It's the very reason why this thread was created in the first place. To address false information, and have it corrected and deleted. So the misinformed people who look at things will be enlightened along with the people who haven't read a single tutorial.

Originally Posted by zoth00

In another related note Auron, you claim REM atonia as a type of SP. This seems contradicting: if REM atonia happens all nights, and SP is refered as conscious perception of being paralysed, then how can REM atonia be a kind of SP?

Chemically they're the same thing. Mechanically they're the same thing. They happen at different parts of sleep so they have different names. Don't try to twist my words, I'm not the person who's going to say "you have SP every night", but I understand that REM Atonia and Isolated Sleep Paralysis fall under the same category Sleep Paralysis. (for lack of a better example) The same way Respiration and Aspiration fall into the same category of breathing. But I'm not going to say 'there's only a small percentage of people who've choked on fluids, so lets exclude aspiration'. I'm going to address the people who've actually gone through it, and make sure that what they know has happened to them wasn't something that's all in their heads.


Now for side notes:
I find it strange how you wanted me to come with sources, and showed me a .com link that was written by a innerfaith minister/yoga instructor that doesn't have a doctorates degree. If you're going to challenge my sources, challenge my sources, don't use some random e-garbage as an example.

As for Jeff777's WILD tutorial....go to it, search it, and find posts made by Spaceexplorer. He lays it down in the thread, and Jeff admits to it being a copy pasta and that he didn't know much at the time when he did it. But the weird part is that a lot of people got lucid from that guide.

The moderators can try to all limit the amount of inaccurate information out there, but, it's best that the knowledgeable people who give a damn about it stand up. It's best to have discussions about things, and challenge theories, isn't that wake makes science, Science?

Originally Posted by Auron

As for Jeff777's WILD tutorial....go to it, search it, and find posts made by Spaceexplorer. He lays it down in the thread, and Jeff admits to it being a copy pasta and that he didn't know much at the time when he did it. But the weird part is that a lot of people got lucid from that guide.

Don't you mean despite the guide? The only reason followers of jeff777 ever get lucid is because they fail at following his instructions. Of course, most of the time they fail anyway but sometimes doing the wrong thing the wrong way actually works out of sheer stupidity and luck.

Hello to everyone who follows this thread. I have been toying with ways to teach WILD in a less confusing way, and want to share a post I made, and open it up to comment from any one with an opinion to share. It is related to my comments earlier in this thread, that we may want to agree on a way to steer this community away from being hung up on SP. I had suggested we choose some replacement term, we can all agree on to give them instead, that is useful, not a hinderance. I had offered the idea of Sleep Awareness (SA)

Ok, here is how I tried to use the term in my teaching. Comments and ideas are welcome.

Originally Posted by sivason

You will have a barely awake feeling, that presists into the first say 10 to 20 minutes of the process (actual sleep). Longer if your WILD is not developing well. Even though you still feel barely awake, you also feel new odd sensations that very from person to person. The point I would impress is that you want to be sneaking your aware brain into true sleep (so an anchor, instead of self reflextion/worries). This first stage (see above post) is how you know when you have reached true sleep and can then drop your anchor (stop doing it) and start creating a dream,,, because you know you have successfully fallen asleep. I wait and keep to my anchor, until I am only about 5% aware of my body. Then I move to make the 'transition.'


Side note: At no point should you worry about Sleep Paralysis (SP), it will only hinder you to think of that. Think instead of Sleep Awareness (SA), which means you learn what it feels like to experience the first stages of true sleep. One of the experiences is less and less connection to your body. You may even feel the onset of REM atonia, which causes some people to have SP. For most of you it will just feel like narcotics,,, a dopy, numb, tingley sensation that feel a bit like drugs are effecting you. Similar to the way you feel, if the dentist has every given you gas, or you have huffed nitris, in the first few seconds of it.
Note each of these stages and think of them as SA, that is just an awareness (experience varies from person to person), that you are passing through each state, so you can time the shift of mental attitude at the proper point in your sleep..

Sivason, I agree, that SP has gotten more important status than it deserves (for LDing purposes). I don't think that SP should be even mentioned in WILD tutorials. When someone posts how he could not move either when falling asleep or waking up, that's when we can clarify what that was, without relating it to LDing.

And that state, when you feel sensations of the falling asleep process, could be called as you suggest Sleep Awareness (SA). Or Falling Asleep Awareness. But that's maybe too long.

And after we come to conclusion about this, there should be a sticky in Attaining Lucidity and WILD forums for everybody to forget what they read about SP on other sites (I have a reason to believe that's where majority of SP craze is comming from). Just my thoughts.

Originally Posted by gab

Sivason, I agree, that SP has gotten more important status than it deserves (for LDing purposes). I don't think that SP should be even mentioned in WILD tutorials. When someone posts how he could not move either when falling asleep or waking up, that's when we can clarify what that was, without relating it to LDing.

And that state, when you feel sensations of the falling asleep process, could be called as you suggest Sleep Awareness (SA). Or Falling Asleep Awareness. But that's maybe too long.

And after we come to conclusion about this, there should be a sticky in Attaining Lucidity and WILD forums for everybody to forget what they read about SP on other sites (I have a reason to believe that's where majority of SP craze is comming from). Just my thoughts.

About the Sticky- Agreed.

Originally Posted by gab

Sivason, I agree, that SP has gotten more important status than it deserves (for LDing purposes). I don't think that SP should be even mentioned in WILD tutorials. When someone posts how he could not move either when falling asleep or waking up, that's when we can clarify what that was, without relating it to LDing.

And that state, when you feel sensations of the falling asleep process, could be called as you suggest Sleep Awareness (SA). Or Falling Asleep Awareness. But that's maybe too long.

And after we come to conclusion about this, there should be a sticky in Attaining Lucidity and WILD forums for everybody to forget what they read about SP on other sites (I have a reason to believe that's where majority of SP craze is comming from). Just my thoughts.

I like the idea. I happen to be on vacation, so I would have time to craft some sort of basic sticky , but I think I will have as much of the staff who cares agree it should be stickied before I do it. Plus, I would need the input, so it comes out saying a useful message. I don't think as staff we should slander any one who choses to try tutorials based on SP., so I would really need to get lots of input.

Originally Posted by sivason

I like the idea. I happen to be on vacation, so I would have time to craft some sort of basic sticky , but I think I will have as much of the staff who cares agree it should be stickied before I do it. Plus, I would need the input, so it comes out saying a useful message. I don't think as staff we should slander any one who choses to try tutorials based on SP., so I would really need to get lots of input.

Sure thing on all counts. We could say something like "DV chose to approach WILD without emphasis on SP". And by "we" I mean the community and staff. And of course, only if that's the route we want to take. And I don't mind, if there is a sticky or not, but many people join and their first thread is "I can't get into SP" and I think that should be addressed somehow.

Personally, I don't mind answering posts like that, and I doubt that a sticky will stop them entirely, but it may help.

Originally Posted by gab

Sure thing on all counts. We could say something like "DV chose to approach WILD without emphasis on SP". And by "we" I mean the community and staff. And of course, only if that's the route we want to take. And I don't mind, if there is a sticky or not, but many people join and their first thread is "I can't get into SP" and I think that should be addressed somehow.

Personally, I don't mind answering posts like that, and I doubt that a sticky will stop them entirely, but it may help.

Good idea with the sticky, but there's also the huge problem of there being extremely popular guides (most notably a certain guide by a jeff777) talking specifically about "trying to achieve SP", which we can now all agree is harmful. And most importantly, since new members don't know any better, they are naturally drawn towards the guides with the highest view counts, which are invariably the worst and most harmful ones. The guides must be deleted or given a strong disclaimer in big bold lettering at the top.

Originally Posted by cmind

Good idea with the sticky, but there's also the huge problem of there being extremely popular guides (most notably a certain guide by a jeff777) talking specifically about "trying to achieve SP", which we can now all agree is harmful. And most importantly, since new members don't know any better, they are naturally drawn towards the guides with the highest view counts, which are invariably the worst and most harmful ones. The guides must be deleted or given a strong disclaimer in big bold lettering at the top.

I think, that we don't need to take such a forcefull measure. If DV feels like we have reached a shift in the way we approach WILDing (without SP), we can mention just that. And also, that there is more than one method, and everybody is free to try any method they wish, just maybe the one without emphasis on SP is more modern? IDK

Methods evolve, I don't see anything wrong with saying, that we used to include SP but any more.

There may be people who would like to reach SP for whatever reason, and that's perfectly fine by me.

Sivason, this SA idea seems a very good one, but I couldn't let a couple of nitpicky thoughts drift harmlessly away from me:

First, isn't WILD itself essentially sleep awareness? That might be semantics, but I'm not sure. After all, if SA is effectively redundant, you might run the risk of reducing the SP focus by replacing it with another focus (SA) that runs the risk of having a disruptive life of its own. Mind you, getting SP off its pedestal is a good thing no matter what, but this might not be the most perfect of trades.

Also, in my WILD class, which I guess is now mostly forgotten, I had some success telling the students not to replace SP, but to truly understand that it is simply part of the "noise" a dreamer experiences during their WILD or DEILD transitions. It can be expected, noticed, and occasionally (as with DEILD) even be used as a tool, but it is not to be expected, looked for , or in any way become the target of WILD. This seemed to have some positive effect, without a need to hold out new terms that could be elevated.

Regardless of these thoughts this is an excellent concept, Sivason, and I truly hope that you are able to make some headway in knocking down the SP wall.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Sivason, this SA idea seems a very good one, but I couldn't let a couple of nitpicky thoughts drift harmlessly away from me:

First, isn't WILD itself essentially sleep awareness? That might be semantics, but I'm not sure. After all, if SA is effectively redundant, you might run the risk of reducing the SP focus by replacing it with another focus (SA) that runs the risk of having a disruptive life of its own. Mind you, getting SP off its pedestal is a good thing no matter what, but this might not be the most perfect of trades.

Also, in my WILD class, which I guess is now mostly forgotten, I had some success telling the students not to replace SP, but to truly understand that it is simply part of the "noise" a dreamer experiences during their WILD or DEILD transitions. It can be expected, noticed, and occasionally (as with DEILD) even be used as a tool, but it is not to be expected, looked for , or in any way become the target of WILD. This seemed to have some positive effect, without a need to hold out new terms that could be elevated.

Regardless of these thoughts this is an excellent concept, Sivason, and I truly hope that you are able to make some headway in knocking down the SP wall.

I was thinking maybe if I do a sticky thread, then I would want to explain, it is basically just markers that may help, and that every one needs to explore their own awareness of the sleep process for them selves. Then I was thinking I would have any DVA professors, staff members and maybe a few celeberty guests (Myzzk, jeff777, suggestions) each get a chance to add one post saying what they want to share or clarify. For, example in your post, you may state something like you just posted, describe any thing you normally use to guide you as to when to try what, and link to any threads, like your class thread that talks in more detail, about it.

I guess it is an idea that we would all offically contribute to a sticky thread to clear up the issue. I could have each contributor PM me with what they plan to say. I would lock the thread, untill one of us was ready to do their post, unlock it so you can add it and try to create a powerful bit of sway to dispell the SP nonsense. If it was offically endorsed by that many known members and had a post inbedded from each, then maybe it would help straighten things out a tiny bit. It won't fix the problem, but may help. The posts each person makes would not have to support the idea of a new term like SA, but should be focussed on what form of sleep awareness you think would be worth mentioning, to show that SP does not have to/ should not be part of a WILD.

See, i feel that the LD version of SP, as it is often used is a helpful marker of where you are in the sleep process, but the term is bad in genneral and confuses every one. I would for my part offer SA as serving the same role, but for your part, maybe you would take your own ideas about why the term SP is not useful/ is harmful, and go in some other direction. I am probably rambeling, as I have not thought it out in any detail.

To sumerize: A sticky thread wrote by and endorsed by say half a dozen dva/staff/well known experts that would share our thoughts on doing away with the term.

Sageous, you may be right about new term would possibly just replace the old one without changing the mindset of a dreamer. I didn't look at it from that angle.

So, do we even need a name for that part of the process?

Originally Posted by gab

Sageous, you may be right about new term would possibly just replace the old one without changing the mindset of a dreamer. I didn't look at it from that angle.

So, do we even need a name for that part of the process?

No need to offically endorse a new term. The focus would probably be each contributor offering their offical thoughts on not teaching/ worrying about/ looking for SP in the WILD process. But stickied in the attaining lucidity portion. We all have to answer so many threads and PMs about the topic, so maybe a conspicous sticky like we are discussing would help. It would be best if we each add our own original thoughts. My part may or may not describe SA, while other contributors would have their own stuff to offer. We could all review the completed thread and then offically endorse it. We would not be endorsing a belief in every detail every contributor makes, but word it that we all offically would choose to do away with the term. Or something.

Originally Posted by gab

So, do we even need a name for that part of the process?

I would say no, we don't, all apologies to Sivason.

As people here might have noticed by now: I believe that terms, and to some degree techniques themselves, are anathema to the very nature of LD'ing, and ought to be avoided and diminished wherever possible.

WILD, and LD'ing itself, is a singular expression of self-awareness, in and of itself. To parse it into separate bits and pieces only reduces the expression, and makes the pieces matter more than a bit too much.

Full disclosure: I was LD'ing for decades before I ever even heard of SP. Sure, I experienced it (albeit almost never during WILD), but I really didn't care -- certainly not enough to name it or seek it out. Yet still I had thousands of WILDs and DEILDs; how can that be?

Gab:

There's already a term for that phase: NREM sleep. If you want to explain the awareness part, you can do so conversationally without the need for another acronym.

Example:

Newcomer: Some weird stuff happened to me last night as I was trying to WILD. There were swirling lights and at one point it felt like I was tripping. What's up with that?

DG/Knowledgeable Member:

Seems like you were passing through NREM sleep; it's nothing to worry about, and it shows you were well on your way to a successful transition! Just keep practicing that awareness as you drift to sleep and you'll be set. =)

The conversational approach removes all reference to paralysis or any association with previous terms (ie SP). Plus it feels more personable and less clinical dropping unnecessary acronyms.


sivason:

I like the idea of a sticky, and wouldn't mind contributing no matter what direction you decide to take it.

Sageous:

My thoughts exactly. Haven't had the time/energy to bring them up. Glad you're on top of things. ^.^