Thread: Sleep Paralysis Demystified

Originally Posted by daban

I think that the WILDs you do without entering a stage of "sp" is a wild when you loose conciousness early in the process and regain it when the dream either is about to form or has already formed(easily attained through deild)
But from a wakeful state, if you're performing a wild, dont you most likely enter a stage when you're unable to move, feel uncomfortable, hard to breathe, sort of claustrophobic feeling? HH and stuff? isnt that sp? afterall you are paralyzed.

If you have lost consciousness while trying to WILD and then regained it when a dream has formed you have had a failed WILD and a DILD.

I am not paralyzed during HH. I have had WILD's where dream scenes appeared before me and I entered them, without ever experiencing the sensation of SP.

Originally Posted by djv

For me it has been a great technique. I know exactly when that sleep paralysis has hit and I can "step out of bed." I feel the sensations as SL described just before I recognize the SP. I'm not sure if I'm that rare, considering a significant portion of the WILD section of EWLD is spent on the technique of focusing on your body and recognizing the moment your body is truly paralyzed.

You're not rare. The main issue here is how hard it is to explain to a person what sleep paralysis is like if they have never experienced it. New people always seem to mistake simple relaxation and mild hallucinations for SP. Or like the OP says they are mistaking feelings that occur in NREM sleep for SP. It might be best not to mention SP to a beginner unless they have already have some experience with SP and know what it's like.

Originally Posted by djv

If you have lost consciousness while trying to WILD and then regained it when a dream has formed you have had a failed WILD and a DILD.

No such thing as failure if you get a lucid out of the deal, methinks.

Originally Posted by djv

No. I am not trying to lie still at this point. I try to roll out of bed, but only my dream body does. I have remained consciuos to the point of sleep paralysis in REM sleep. I am aware of my body. It is my technique to focus on my body. I recognize exactly the point where I can try to get out of bed, knowing that I physically can't.

If I have a dream body - then I am paralyzed. That is a normal occurance that prevents you from acting out your dreams.

I do not ruin my WILD, because my WILD attempts are successful when I have noticed the point where my body is paralyzed and I simply roll out of bed. Dream scenes rarely (maybe 1 times in 20) appear before my eyes for me to enter. Most of my WILD's start as pitch black dreams in my bedroom. I have to use different techniques to achieve vision within these LD's.

I apologize for my misunderstanding. It seems you do have a grasp on NREM and are experiencing sleep paralysis. Admittedly, I have little experience in WILD and the ones I did have were nothing like this. I never felt my body become paralyzed, or transition from a physical to dream body. I do start to feel as if I am floating, then in a void, then a dream scene would spontaneously form around me. I imagine WILDs can be very different for each person who experiences it.

Originally Posted by hermine_hesse

I imagine WILDs can be very different for each person who experiences it.

You imagined well, because they are!

That may be the real value of this thread (and Mzzkc's contribution in general), in that one of the real problems with the great variety of talk and techniques is that it almost establishes a "norm," or an expectation of a specific group of events that newbies are convinced must happen before they can LD. SP, of course, is by far the most popular of these events. I will never know why.

WILDs, and the achieving of LD's in general, is a different experience for everyone, and attachments like expecting "to achieve SP" can really muddle your own natural progression.

And yeah, I'll say it: All that really matters are the fundamentals -- self-awareness, memory, and expectation/intention. If those are well developed, technique doesn't matter, and natural noise like SP can simply be ignored.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

No such thing as failure if you get a lucid out of the deal, methinks.

Sure, but the WILD still failed as consciousness wasn't maintained from waking to dreaming. I've had many DILD's that probably were the result of the efforts I made in trying, but failing, to WILD.

^^ Again: Is that a bad thing?

Originally Posted by dms111

You're not rare. The main issue here is how hard it is to explain to a person what sleep paralysis is like if they have never experienced it. New people always seem to mistake simple relaxation and mild hallucinations for SP. Or like the OP says they are mistaking feelings that occur in NREM sleep for SP. It might be best not to mention SP to a beginner unless they have already have some experience with SP and know what it's like.

Mzzkc has suggested it's rare...

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

All that said, it is unusual to experience sleep paralysis during a WILD attempt.

That said, I understand Mzzkc's point. I don't see a problem to mention SP to a beginner, but as Mzzkc suggests it's a good idea to distinguish it from the NREM events, and it should be made clear that experiencing the sensation of SP is not necessary to successfully WILD.

Originally Posted by djv

Mzzkc has suggested it's rare...

Using the clinical definition, defined by the symptoms newbies get scared by the most.

That stuff doesn't happen frequently, as far as I know. If it did, I don't think WILDing would be quite as popular a technique.

Originally Posted by djv

That said, I understand Mzzkc's point. I don't see a problem to mention SP to a beginner, but as Mzzkc suggests it's a good idea to distinguish it from the NREM events, and it should be made clear that experiencing the sensation of SP is not necessary to successfully WILD.

This.

This approach to teaching/learning is all I wanted people to take away from this guide. Indeed, you sir, have pointed out the entirety of my thesis.

Discussion accomplished? Hmm, this might be an Internet first. I have no idea how to proceed.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Using the clinical definition, defined by the symptoms newbies get scared by the most.

That stuff doesn't happen frequently, as far as I know. If it did, I don't think WILDing would be quite as popular a technique.
This approach to teaching/learning is all I wanted people to take away from this guide. Indeed, you sir, have pointed out the entirety of my thesis.

Discussion accomplished? Hmm, this might be an Internet first. I have no idea how to proceed.

How about proceeding with a caveat? WILD may not be so much a popular technique as much as a popularly desired technique.

"SP," or some imagined experience of SP, might be more integral to the common failure of WILD attempts than, um, nature, or our rational concepts, ought to allow.

I'm not sure if that's important, but it seems to matter in this context.

Originally Posted by Sageous

How about proceeding with a caveat? WILD may not be so much a popular technique as much as a popularly desired technique.

"SP," or some imagined experience of SP, might be more integral to the common failure of WILD attempts than, um, nature, or our rational concepts, ought to allow.

I'm not sure if that's important, but it seems to matter in this context.

Yes. This.

Is late. Prose hard to form.

Sageous write the good words I agree with.

Edit:

I would like to thank everyone for participating in this discussion. Y'all are cool.

Please stay that way.

-(T)zzkc

Why 99% of people trying to WILD fail and give up: At this moment, mzzkc's "SP" thread has just over 1000 views, and at the very top of the page there's a thread by Jeff777 with over 100,000 views talking about trying to get into "SP".

^^ Mzzkc's battle is most certainly an uphill one. Better him than me, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

De-Orientaton
The amygdala, for instance, shows decreased activity during sleep (according to various studies).
[/FONT][/INDENT]

Interesting. I've seen a documentary (which I will try to find) presenting that in sleep paralysis occurences there was an over-estimulation of the amygdala, which was the main cause for intense fear feelings. I can't lean any way though, because I consider myself ignorant about these processes, especially when we're discussing them based on what you called "mostly experiences from DV members". I personally never felt this so called "terror feeling" in any of my WILDS, and I actually sense that it's easier to ignore all the hallucinations/sensory interferences because they vary greatly every single WILD, so they don't really provide (at least to me) any "sign" that (dream) land is right ahead.

Very nice discussion, we need more like this even if we have a lot of different views. After all, no one has all the pieces of the puzzle ^^

Originally Posted by zoth00

Very nice discussion, we need more like this even if we have a lot of different views. After all, no one has all the pieces of the puzzle ^^

Yeah, man. I'm still trying to find some of those blasted edge pieces.

They aren't in the box, they aren't in the pile. I even checked the vacuum cleaner. . .

No luck.

Originally Posted by zoth00

Interesting. I've seen a documentary (which I will try to find) presenting that in sleep paralysis occurences there was an over-estimulation of the amygdala, which was the main cause for intense fear feelings. I can't lean any way though, because I consider myself ignorant about these processes, especially when we're discussing them based on what you called "mostly experiences from DV members". I personally never felt this so called "terror feeling" in any of my WILDS, and I actually sense that it's easier to ignore all the hallucinations/sensory interferences because they vary greatly every single WILD, so they don't really provide (at least to me) any "sign" that (dream) land is right ahead.

Very nice discussion, we need more like this even if we have a lot of different views. After all, no one has all the pieces of the puzzle ^^

I don't think the terror feelings happen during WILD SP, its more in the medical condition SP, when you are waking from sleep not entering it. (WILD experts, please correct me if I am wrong here.) The terror (with the latter version) usually is accompanied or brought on by a seemingly malicious or evil presence. Sometimes it can be ecstatic feelings, too, but those can actually be more disturbing.

I think this is part of the problem. WILD newbies who have never experienced either SP mesh the two together, and are worried that they will experience terror or evil beings while trying to WILD. *sigh* I wish we could adopt two separate terms for these two very different experiences, but I'm not even going to attempt that uphill battle.

Originally Posted by hermine_hesse

I don't think the terror feelings happen during WILD SP, its more in the medical condition SP, when you are waking from sleep not entering it. (WILD experts, please correct me if I am wrong here.) The terror (with the latter version) usually is accompanied or brought on by a seemingly malicious or evil presence. Sometimes it can be ecstatic feelings, too, but those can actually be more disturbing.

I think this is part of the problem. WILD newbies who have never experienced either SP mesh the two together, and are worried that they will experience terror or evil beings while trying to WILD. *sigh* I wish we could adopt two separate terms for these two very different experiences, but I'm not even going to attempt that uphill battle.

I imagine the medical SP as we're calling it would be quite terrifying, especially as most who experience it probably have no real knowledge of it, like us here on DV.

I often experience auditory hallucinations while trying to WILD and occasionally they are scary - I can usually ignore them, but sometimes I have to end my WILD attempt despite knowing it is probably not real (e.g. when I hear breaking glass I don't want to lie there in bed saying it's nothing while someone is actually breaking into my house). On a couple of occasions I've heard people "in my room" saying they are going to kill me. While scary I can ignore that because it's obviously a hallucination.

Mzzkc has given the two separate terms, and after looking around this part of the forum for a bit (I usually don't frequent it) I understand why. Good luck Mzzkc - you're going to need it.

Originally Posted by hermine_hesse

I don't think the terror feelings happen during WILD SP, its more in the medical condition SP, when you are waking from sleep not entering it. (WILD experts, please correct me if I am wrong here.) The terror (with the latter version) usually is accompanied or brought on by a seemingly malicious or evil presence. Sometimes it can be ecstatic feelings, too, but those can actually be more disturbing.

I think this is part of the problem. WILD newbies who have never experienced either SP mesh the two together, and are worried that they will experience terror or evil beings while trying to WILD. *sigh* I wish we could adopt two separate terms for these two very different experiences, but I'm not even going to attempt that uphill battle.

People with reocurrent sleep paralysis report them in the middle of the night. It becomes a bit hard to claim that they happen post REM stage, especially because sleep paralysis can happen other than when REM stage is ending (or disturbed, in the case of narcoleptic people I'd assume). The seeming malicious or evil presence is part of this terror, but what you probably want to refer is that sleep paralysis can obey to certain degrees, both depending on the condition of the person experiencing it.

I've refered this (I also didn't know before I saw this topic and did some research to see and comprove several things said by Mzzkc, like HH) on other forums/places and people still seem to think that those physical disturbances when you're falling asleep are a sign that you're in SP and "about" to enter REM. Wish people would actually research that a dream forming and hypnagogic hallucinations can be different things, and that sleep paralysis isn't a transition, but actually a part of a sleep stage.

I was never under the impression that SP in a lucid dream discussion was intended to mean the same thing as the medical term. I am sorry but we need a term to describe a state that happens during a WILD attempt. SP is used to mean a certain state, NOT the medically defined term. So, I wonder if any one is implying the state were you must use a lot of concious mental intent to move (since your body IS asleep) does not exist?
I mean the state where you are clearly asleep but can still vaguely feel bodily sensation. You feel as if moving is not going to happen unless you force the issue. I do not ever take the term SP onn this forum to mean the medical SP. What do you, or any one suggest I call that state? nREM does not fit. nREM is a huge range of sleep phases, not one specific bodily sensation. Why argue to change the whole terminology? And yes, I do need a term for this one bodily sensation, used as a marker for judging my sleep state. SP is the term already in place, and likely any suggestion will just be some thing some one makes up.
In medicine there is a drug called theobromine (related to caffine), turns out it has no bromine in it, but they did not ask the world medical community to rename it. It is just poorly named, and we accept it. I am all for a term to take the place of the state I refer to as SP, but then no one who has always used the term will know what I mean.

Originally Posted by sivason

I was never under the impression that SP in a lucid dream discussion was intended to mean the same thing as the medical term. I am sorry but we need a term to describe a state that happens during a WILD attempt. SP is used to mean a certain state, NOT the medically defined term. So, I wonder if any one is implying the state were you must use a lot of concious mental intent to move (since your body IS asleep) does not exist?
I mean the state where you are clearly asleep but can still vaguely feel bodily sensation. You feel as if moving is not going to happen unless you force the issue. I do not ever take the term SP onn this forum to mean the medical SP. What do you, or any one suggest I call that state? nREM does not fit. nREM is a huge range of sleep phases, not one specific bodily sensation. Why argue to change the whole terminology? And yes, I do need a term for this one bodily sensation, used as a marker for judging my sleep state. SP is the term already in place, and likely any suggestion will just be some thing some one makes up.
In medicine there is a drug called theobromine (related to caffine), turns out it has no bromine in it, but they did not ask the world medical community to rename it. It is just poorly named, and we accept it. I am all for a term to take the place of the state I refer to as SP, but then no one who has always used the term will know what I mean.

Most in this community aren't as discerning as you--let alone those in the medical field. Due to that (and several other factors), they lump the two terms together and assume inseparability.

Yes, NREM is an umbrella term that encompasses all sleep stages and sensations prior to REM sleep. I don't see how you can refute its applicability as appropriate terminology. What do you experience during WILD attempts? Vibrations? Hypnagogia? Spinning? Floating? Dampened senses? Buzzing?

All of those are characteristic of NREM sleep.

A sense of dread, full-body paralysis, and open-eyed hallucinations are characteristic of conscious sleep paralysis.

Numbness, tingling, a sense of discomfort, and difficulty of movement are characteristic of neither sleep paralysis or NREM. These are however characteristic of a self-induced trance state (aka self-hypnosis) brought about by relaxation, remaining still for a long time, and the belief that you are experiencing "sleep paralysis" and thus cannot move.

Which would you say better matches your experience and definition of "SP"? Which would you say best matches the experiences and definitions of the wider LDing community?

"SP" is already widely used as a non-standardized blanket term. Unfortunately, it encompasses more than it should, which sows confusion, misunderstanding, and misinformation. As a result, newbies waste hours of their lives trying to "reach SP." Is their time so worthless that you feel it unnecessary to even attempt a change in the status quo? I firmly believe everyone's time is precious and allowing newbies to throw away countless hours simply because no one was willing to take action and change the "official" curriculum is an egregious, reprehensible act.

Hence this thread.

I've done what I can. The ball's in your (inclusive) court.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Most in this community aren't as discerning as you--let alone those in the medical field. Due to that (and several other factors), they lump the two terms together and assume inseparability.

Yes, NREM is an umbrella term that encompasses all sleep stages and sensations prior to REM sleep. I don't see how you can refute its applicability as appropriate terminology. What do you experience during WILD attempts? Vibrations? Hypnagogia? Spinning? Floating? Dampened senses? Buzzing?

All of those are characteristic of NREM sleep.

A sense of dread, full-body paralysis, and open-eyed hallucinations are characteristic of conscious sleep paralysis.

Numbness, tingling, a sense of discomfort, and difficulty of movement are characteristic of neither sleep paralysis or NREM. These are however characteristic of a self-induced trance state (aka self-hypnosis) brought about by relaxation, remaining still for a long time, and the belief that you are experiencing "sleep paralysis" and thus cannot move.

Which would you say better matches your experience and definition of "SP"? Which would you say best matches the experiences and definitions of the wider LDing community?

"SP" is already widely used as a non-standardized blanket term. Unfortunately, it encompasses more than it should, which sows confusion, misunderstanding, and misinformation. As a result, newbies waste hours of their lives trying to "reach SP." Is their time so worthless that you feel it unnecessary to even attempt a change in the status quo? I firmly believe everyone's time is precious and allowing newbies to throw away countless hours simply because no one was willing to take action and change the "official" curriculum is an egregious, reprehensible act.

Hence this thread.

I've done what I can. The ball's in your (inclusive) court.

I agree with you that people are confused. i agree that they are thinkingg of the WILD experience of SP by looking at the medical experience SP. I have tried to set new members straight, here is an example of what i tell them, http://www.dreamviews.com/f12/you-ca...en-try-135753/


The noises and vibrations and such are HH or HI as you have pointed out. I am talking about the sensation that you only get in a self induced sleep while maintaining slight mental awareness (WILD attempt). You can feel the moment when your body has actually fallen asleep. Because your body is asleep, you can not move it with out serious mental intent. That is why I ask people not to test it, they are finally freaking asleep and stupidly attempt to conciously move their body! Very wasteful. I do not know how the term came in to use with LDing. However, it feels pretty much the same as actual REM atonia. After my post last night, I had about 3 DILDs and a DEILD, so I did not mind 'wasting' one on an experiment. I stopped and saught awareness of my physical body, while clearly in REM. Yes, there it was, and the ssensation was just about the same as bodily awareness in nREM. I then used concious will and intent to sit bolt upright in bed. This woke me up of course, but I was able to break true SP (REM atonia) just as easy as I break SP (LD term).
Maybe we should tell members that what they are looking for is the sensation of their body being asleep. I do not know the facts about what counts as SP from a sleep study point of view, but I experience no difference between what ever happens in the late stages of a WILD attempt, and the actual REM WILD.

^^ As Mzzkc notes above, Sivason, your knowledge, experience and abilities are virtually unique here. So too I think are your expectations. This matters a lot with subjects like SP.

You may be able, from experience alone, to parse various "SP's," and prepare your expectations accordingly, but the vast majority of viewers here can not -- or rather choose not to do so. Just count views on a SP thread as opposed to one that really matters like Zot00's recent post: SP threads, and all their requisite amazing (and usually incorrect) claims are viewed by an order of magnitude greater than thoughtful balanced threads like Zoth00's. The mythology of SP has eclipsed nearly every other subject on this site (and others), which says a lot about the successful hyping of a bit of noise that successful LD'ers seem to consistently shrug off; it also throws up a serious caveat to those wishing to redefine it. Better I think to just leave it lie.

Nuance doesn't matter here. What you say is sensible, I think, but it doesn't help, given your audience: Define SP more ways, and you only elevate the importance of the single greatest distraction in LD'ing among those who learn about it here. It doesn't matter if what you say is correct -- your words will not only be taken out of context, but added to the existing SP lexicon -- and thick bibles are all the more impressive, whether they're ever opened or not.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

I've done what I can.

No, Mzzkc, you can do more. And will. Many of us are counting on that...

I need to admit that when I made my first post, it was late and I was actually feeling pissy,because a member who follows Mzzkc likes toattack newbies who 'dare' say they entered SP, and call them (imply) that they know nothing. He does this dispite that they are using the term correctly for the LD version of SP. I find it sad when someone tries to make them selves feel smart by attacking raw beginners.

I have an idea. Lets agree on a term that we can use to describe the things SP is used for in LDing and try to replace SP with it. I have a random suggestion. How abou S.A. for Sleep Awareness, as in the sensations you experience that allow you to know your body has fallen into sleep? Any one know if S.A. is already being used for any LD terms? Then instead of being harse with beginners we can just steer them into thinking about Sleep Awareness instead of SP as a marker for where they are at in their WILD attempt.

It would not have to be SA if either of you have a better idea for a term, but I do feel a term for the stage of awareness when your body has reach true sleep is important, and because it has an S in it, maybe it would be an easy transition.

I think SA is a fine term, or at least a step in the right direction ... but will it do anything to dispel the current SP mythology?