Longest LD Possible?

[littlezoe]

I was just wondering... I'm a moderator on the biggest hungarian LD site... and noticed that some of the newbies claim to have 1-2 hour long LDs. They mean that as in real time (checked the clock, ect)... It seems kinda unbelievable to me... Of course they can feel like hours go by in the dream, but in reality that can be much shorter... What are your opinions on this? I'm not sure what to believe...

[DinoSawr]

Hmm... Seems to me that chances are they didn't look at the clock, roll over, and enter a dream. They probably looked at the clock, went to sleep, had a dream later on that felt like a long one and then looked at the clock when they woke up.

[littlezoe]

Hmm... Seems to me that chances are they didn't look at the clock, roll over, and enter a dream. They probably looked at the clock, went to sleep, had a dream later on that felt like a long one and then looked at the clock when they woke up. Exactly what i think... i mentioned this but the guy claims that it was surely over 1 hours... But he only had 2 LDs so far, so i can easily imagine the mistake. But there is another person who is a long time LDer who claims to had a 1 hour 30 minutes long LD once... but he never posts dream entries, so i don't know whether it's true or not...

[Oreo]

It seems possible to me that after they fell asleep they were actually unconscious for over an hour and then dreamed the rest of the time. If this were the case, it would be very easy to confuse the unconscious time with dream time.

[roman67]

Yes, exactly. Littlezoe you are absolutely right. I agree with you.

[Sandyman]

A 1-2h long lucid dream basically means that you have to LD through the whole night (I don't know how much you can extend the REM-cycle or how much your newbies are sleeping). I also don't think you can measure your dreams that easily, because there is a long non-dreaming period and if you count that in you can easily make the mistake.

[littlezoe]

Thanks guys... seems like everyone agrees. But i welcome any other opinions

[Liquidaque]

I've had a LD last real time about 115 minutes. It was a WBTB WILD, so I know for sure it was 115 minutes long. That's with REM rebound combined with REM extenders, and a general skill at extending LDs. To me, that shouldn't seem all too impossible... but it's the dream time that you may find hard to believe... about 10 hours.

[EarthInferno]

Well I was able to look at the time this morning, and fell back to sleep for about 10 minutes. I had 2 dreams during that time, the second of which I went lucid in the middle of the dream.

[littlezoe]

Well I was able to look at the time this morning, and fell back to sleep for about 10 minutes. I had 2 dreams during that time, the second of which I went lucid in the middle of the dream. Well that's not related to what i said It's obviously possible to have dreams in that short time, but my question was about the possibility of a 1-2 hours (in real time) long LD

[Sandyman]

I've had a LD last real time about 115 minutes. It was a WBTB WILD, so I know for sure it was 115 minutes long. That's with REM rebound combined with REM extenders, and a general skill at extending LDs. To me, that shouldn't seem all too impossible... but it's the dream time that you may find hard to believe... about 10 hours. Ok, simple question: How do you know for sure that your LD was 115 minutes long unless you have some sort of instrument where you can measure your REM-cycle?

[littlezoe]

Ok, simple question: How do you know for sure that your LD was 115 minutes long unless you have some sort of instrument where you can measure your REM-cycle? Perfect question hah. I didn't see his post before, i would've asked this myself otherwise.

[Duffles22]

It seems possible to me. A lot of people tend to forget that you actually dream while not in REM sleep, although dreams not in REM are a lot harder to remember, which is why nobody really recalls them. Also it seems from my understanding that they are a lot less vivid and unclear compared to a dream in a REM cycle. I've only slept for a hour one night before I woke up (Fell asleep at 11:43 pm and woke up around 12) and remembered I had already had a dream...

[littlezoe]

But we are talking about a LUCID DREAM here, that lasted more than 1 hour...

[Sandyman]

It seems possible to me. A lot of people tend to forget that you actually dream while not in REM sleep, although dreams not in REM are a lot harder to remember, which is why nobody really recalls them. Also it seems from my understanding that they are a lot less vivid and unclear compared to a dream in a REM cycle. I've only slept for a hour one night before I woke up (Fell asleep at 11:43 pm and woke up around 12) and remembered I had already had a dream which seems impossible if you recall the first REM cycle starts about 4-6 hours after you fall asleep. You see that's the problem. How do you know for sure your dream was a NREM dream. Also I think the first REM-cycle starts after ca. 90 minutes (The REM-cycle is short I know), plus (I'm not sure on this part), but I think there isn't a sleep paralysis during NREM sleep.

[Duffles22]

Lucid dream or not it doesn't change what I have said before. While in REM cycle your brain is more active which is why we remember dreams easier and it is also why we have a chance to realize were dreaming. Weather in REM or not, there is a immensely small chance but it seems to me it is plausible that you can remain lucid even without being in an actual REM cycle.

[Duffles22]

You see that's the problem. How do you know for sure your dream was a NREM dream. Also I think the first REM-cycle starts after ca. 90 minutes (It's short I know), plus (I'm not sure on this part), but I think there isn't a sleep paralysis during NREM sleep. I'm pretty sure sleep paralysis occurs whether your going into a REM cycle or not. (if anyone knows more about this and knows Im wrong feel free to correct me). Also your contradicting yourself, you ask me how I know its a REM cycle or not and then mention that the first REM cycle occurs roughly 90 minutes after sleeping. just saying... Last thing: I know this isn't much to go on, but the dream I had was very chaotic and was blurry and dull in colors, which is completely opposite of what my regular dreams are. It could have been a coincidence but I thought it seemed more likely that I wasn't in a REM cycle.

[littlezoe]

I'm sure SP occurs when entering REM... not in NREM.

[Sandyman]

I'm pretty sure sleep paralysis occurs whether your going into a REM cycle or not. (if anyone knows more about this and knows Im wrong feel free to correct me), its purpose is to keep your body still while asleep (not only while dreaming). Also your contradicting yourself, you ask me how I know its a REM cycle or not and then mention that the first REM cycle occurs roughly 90 minutes after sleeping. just saying... Okay, normally the first REM-cycle begins after 90min, but this span can vary on a case by case basis. I just wanted to say, that there is the possibility that a REM-Cycle already occured, but how do you proof it? I don't know your sleep schedule and your body could have just taken a 'nap'. I researched a little bit and it seems that NREM dreams are not really the simualtion-based REM-cycle dreams, but more like thinking or daydreaming (academic.pgcc.edu/~mhspear/sleep/stages/nrsleep.html <- I don't know how reliable that source is, maybe someone can confirm it or say it's rubbish). Also wikipedia says that you are not paralyzed during NREM (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NREM <- Again, I don't know how reliable that is, because the information about that seems unfocused).

[Duffles22]

Well, I do admit that I don't know much about sleep paralysis (I recognize that you don't in fact SP while NREM) I did see this in the same link that states that, "Though dreaming most commonly occurs during the rapid eye movement sleep stage based on there being more dream recall and vividness,[9] dreaming can also occur during NREM sleep." Although Wikipedia isn't the best source to base an argument on, You can read any academic book about sleeping and it will tell you the same thing...

[Liquidaque]

Ok, simple question: How do you know for sure that your LD was 115 minutes long unless you have some sort of instrument where you can measure your REM-cycle? Well, it's as simple as this: I woke up to my alarm after 5-6 hours of little to no REM sleep (but sleep non the less--thanks to REM suppressors). I turned off the alarm, and quickly took my REM extenders, then went back to bed. Before I tried to WILD, I looked at the clock. It read I don't remember the time now, but you get the idea... I instantly enter a dream because I'm only half awake to begin with... I wake up 115 minutes later and look at the clock; thus seeing the time spent in the dream.

[EarthInferno]

Well I was able to look at the time this morning, and fell back to sleep for about 10 minutes. I had 2 dreams during that time, the second of which I went lucid in the middle of the dream. I'm just saying if you work with that math, you'd have an average of 12 dreams per hour. Quite a bit to remember! Could anyone really sustain lucidity for all those potential dreams and remember it all? You mentioned it being kind of unbelievable, I share your skepticism. I'm not saying its not possible, just highly unlikely. If an advanced DV user claimed that sure, no problem. But a noob to LDs? eh, I don't know about that.

[Hukif]

Man a lot of misconceptions. First one, nobody gets SP while in REM. The name given is different, SP is only for when awake. Second, since people dream naturally during NREM and don't move around and walk sleep, there is no reason to believe that having a lucid during such a stage will make you guys move. Third, the late night cycles can be longer than an hour, so having a 1 hour lucid isn't that rare. Then we have the fact that chaining cycles is posible which means its possible to have dreams that last over two hours, if people go ahead and get sleep deprived REM-rebound could make that go even higher and so on, it really depends on how people are dealing with the lucid. And I mean, some newbies get very lucky so no reason to doubt it. And if you give someone the whole "importance because it could be a lie" they are more likely to lie again, just let them be and if they suddenly leave you will have your answer.

[Sandyman]

Man a lot of misconceptions. First one, nobody gets SP while in REM. The name given is different, SP is only for when awake. Second, since people dream naturally during NREM and don't move around and walk sleep, there is no reason to believe that having a lucid during such a stage will make you guys move. Third, the late night cycles can be longer than an hour, so having a 1 hour lucid isn't that rare. Then we have the fact that chaining cycles is posible which means its possible to have dreams that last over two hours, if people go ahead and get sleep deprived REM-rebound could make that go even higher and so on, it really depends on how people are dealing with the lucid. And I mean, some newbies get very lucky so no reason to doubt it. And if you give someone the whole "importance because it could be a lie" they are more likely to lie again, just let them be and if they suddenly leave you will have your answer. Now I'm a bit confused... So the term SP is only used when you wake up and can't move? Hmmm, can someone recommend me a good information source (can be a book) about this, because it seems that the internet is not a good one.

[Sageous]

Though the OP mentions newbies only and I'm not sure I qualify, I can say with confidence that I've had dozens of LD's lasting well over an hour, mainly due to the circumstances Hukif explained so well a couple of posts up. Also, I have on several occasions (one being just last week) been able to "jump" from REM cycle to REM cycle using WILD/DEILD without losing the dream, effectively staying in the same dream for three hours or more. Oh, and when you're conscious throughout the experience and own a clock it really isn't that hard (with a little practice) to make a good guess at how long the dream physically lasted. Finally, regarding all this talk of NREM LD'ing: it is possible, very different, very difficult (waking consciousness has little interest hanging around during it, for some reason), well worth exploring, and you will know it when you're in it -- in other words, I'm not sure you can really include holding consciousness through NREM as part of your LD's length. That could be a philosophical point there, but I figured it would be worth mentioning. Also, I doubt a newbie could bumble into a state of NREM LD'ing, but as Hukif said above, anything is possible. Same with a newbie having a very long LD -- it's certainly possible, but unlikely -- there's just too much you must "know" to have a REM-period-stretching, or REM-jumping LD that lasts more than 45 minutes or so. I suggest, Littlezoe, if it's not too late to make a suggestion, that you congratulate the newbie on their success, but have them really review what they wrote down upon waking, just to see if they can confirm to themselves, all clocks aside, that they were aware for 1-2 hours straight. Maybe they'll come back a little sheepish, but they'll have learned a bit about how to track these things -- especially important if they're having long LD's by accident! Oh, and Sandyman, if you haven't already, get a copy of Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Stephen LaBerge -- it's kind of the bible for this stuff. I hope that helped.