Thread: The perfect Lucid dreamer?

Well, I didn't expect that anyone else had had the exact same experiences as me - I was just bringing up a couple of specific incidents to illustrate the general topic, of the type of awareness that Sageous is saying is important for lucidity. I definitely went through some profound adjustments to my awareness - not of myself but of my relation to the world - at around 10 to 12 years of age. After that I'd say the big adjustments were over and there were just a few smaller ones as I went through adolescence into adulthood. But that was my main point anyway - that kids aren't at an adult level of awareness until somewhere in that vicinity - again doubtless with a wide variance for different individuals. Some people might be done with those big adjustments by an earlier age, some maybe not till sometime in high school.

But I don't really have an opinion on whether a fully adult level of awareness is necessary for lucidity, or for high level lucidity, since I haven't experienced it anywhere near as much as Sageous and Sivason. Only maybe 2 of my lucids would qualify as a high level of awareness - maybe really only 1. And I'm sure that one would seem pretty low compared to the things they've experienced. In fact, until having my highest level lucid I thought my other ones were what lucid dreaming was all about - I didn't realize how much more intense it got until I experienced it for myself. So I wonder how much more I have yet to experience?

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Didn't you just say on another thread that simply knowing you're dreaming qualifies as lucidity? In fact, this is why I thought you didn't believe that, because I've seen you many times say that true lucidity requires a certain level of self-awareness and memory of waking life as well as just knowing you're dreaming. You're somewhat of an enigma Sageous. (my nice way of saying you're a confounding old geezer! - and I can call you that, being nearly the same age myself!)

Though I struggled to not take this so seriously, and fully accepted your defense, I couldn't get it out of my head since reading it.

I wasn't sure why, but it's coming around, and I think it's relevant to this thread, so let me belabor the point:

First, Darkmatters, I humbly agree that you were absolutely right, or at least the subtext within your attempt at humor was on the mark. During the time I was supposed to be napping and LD'ing today I did some searching (in my head, not my posts), and decided that yes indeed, I have been defying my personal view of "true" lucidity in the name of conforming to what is considered lucidity on these forums.

I haven't looked, but either my Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals or Treatise on Proof thread describes my assumption that a LD must be a completed three-legged stool with legs of self-awareness, memory, and manifest expectation/intention present in order to be a true condition of lucidity in a dream. Now, by measures on these forums, that would make a "true" LD of the medium to high-level variety, and anything below that, though it might include one of the legs of that stool (most often manifest expectation, BTW), could be termed low level, but still lucid. [It could also be a false lucid, but I'm not even going there today.]

So, in order to participate in conversations here without getting my head tediously bitten off, I've found myself forming my posts around what "everyone" considers lucidity instead of what I do. That was wrong, and, to the folks like you who actually pay attention, it really does hurt my credibility. It might not seem serious to you, but it really bugged me.

So here's my conclusion: Yes, being aware that you are dreaming is enough to call a dream lucid. However, by my measure it isn't truly lucid until you are not only aware of the dream, but you have a level of self-awareness (all apologies to the ADA folks, but there is a difference between awareness and self-awareness) and some memory of your waking life for it to be a true lucid dream; or rather a true lucid moment, because the same formula works in waking life. If those first two legs are solidly in place, odds are expectation/intention did their job as well.

By extension, "natural" true lucidity really cannot exist because, even though a person might know she's dreaming every night, if she hasn't "artificially" inserted self-awareness or memory into the occasion, true lucidity is absent. So natural lucidity can never be more than low-level lucidity, though it sure makes for an excellent tool later in life for the dreamers who want to get all three legs under the stool. (full disclosure: my years practicing Ld'ing have led me to a point where most of my dreams are very low-level lucids, though by no means do I consider myself a natural).

And yes, a child can certainly have a LD, and I believe that many if not all of them do at one point or another, probably because a child's world-view doesn't change much between sleep and waking. But, since that lucidity will very likely lack two legs of the stool -- self-awareness and memory (which must be "turned on" intentionally; something a child might be able to do if properly trained, I suppose) -- to me it is not true lucidity. But, as I already conceded, it is certainly a very low-level lucidity.

Also, as long as I'm here: Though it is important for its own reasons, I believe that control has nothing to do with lucidity. You can enjoy high-level lucids without an iota of control, and you can enjoy tons of control without an iota of lucidity. (full disclosure again: I used to think just the opposite, that control defined lucidity, but I was wrong. I'm pretty sure I had walked away from that stance long before joining DV, but if there's a post of mine supporting that thought, just ignore it).

Now for the relevance to thread: True lucidity is still not perfect lucidity. Anyone can (and should) have a truly lucid moment, but to have that moment on tap at any time -- or during every moment -- is incredibly hard and probably impossible. Perfect is indeed a very difficult word.

Sorry for the ruminations; this just seemed like something I needed to put down just to get it out of my head, and do so "publicly" for the sake of credibility. If what I wrote doesn't make sense, just ignore and forget; I'm just happy having dumped it from my brain.