WILDing Through Entire Night

[Avian]

There has already been a thread on this but it didn't provide enough informaiton: http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ire-night.html After reading most of the thread on lucidity during NREM, I wondered about WILDing from when you go to bed. I understand that it will take an hour to have a dream, and it will be short + low-quality. However, my question that I want you guys to answer is: Would it be the same as going to sleep normally? If you were to WILD through the entire night, from the moment you get into bed to the time you wake up, would you be just as rested as if you had fallen asleep the normal way? If this is possible, dreamers could experience every sleep stage every night, although it would require a lot of skill with WILDs and a whole lot of focus.

[Memm]

Well apparently there are yogis and such that stay aware during all stages of sleep, but it's obviously not easy and would probably require many years of skilful meditation. The long, high quality dreams happen in the last 2-3 hours of sleep though so why not just concentrate on staying aware then?

[mlbenson]

As far as my understanding of WILD goes, you'd just be lying there until you eventually do fall asleep from sheer tiredness. The idea of WILD is that you pass directly into REM sleep: this is accomplished by waking up around 6 hours into sleep and then attempting it, or during an afternoon nap. I'm not totally discounting the possibility that it might be possible, but it's barely documented and hardly worth it.

[LDman]

I guess I could do something similar to this, instead of leaving my real body and entering a dream after a WILD I could just stay there, laying still.

[Avian]

Well I understand that you would just be lying there, but what is the difference between light/early sleep stages and WILD? Does it really matter what is going on in your head, as long as you are still? I know from personal experience that if I do WILD during the day (I almost never experience REM during the day so I don't go into a lucid dream) even for 30 minutes I wake up feeling rejuvenated. It is like taking a short nap, but without being confused and bewildered afterwards. That is what makes me think that doing WILD during a light sleep stage is the same as doing light sleep.

[Sageous]

However, my question that I want you guys to answer is: Would it be the same as going to sleep normally? The answer to your question, I believe, is yes. Maintaining waking-life self-awareness throughout a night's sleep is more an act of witnessing than it is one of controlling or affecting sleep. Your body will continue with all its scheduled sleep processes, regardless of your conscious state. On top of that, and though I could be wrong, I personally believe that even the mental stuff, like memory sorting/storage, are still going on just as if you weren't there. Your OP might not be entirely accurate, Avian, since you would not be WILDing all night long, and certainly would not be doing the often difficult mental and physical work that gets you through a WILD all night long. Since WILD describes the transition from wake to sleep without losing consciousness (reminder: WILD is not a technique, but a state of consciousness), you would be "doing" a WILD for about as much time as you would have spent doing one after a WBTB in the morning. In other words, the only actual WILD you experience will occur when you initially fall asleep. During the rest of the the night you will simply be self-aware, and not actively transitioning...except of course for the DEILD's you will do the several times your body naturally wakes during the night, but those are much different, and psychically easier, than "classic" WILDs. The stages of sleep will come and go, and you will be there with them, but there will be no need to do a WILD to transition between those stages (except, as I already said, for those DEILDs). Speaking of that, you also will not be dreaming (as we use the term here) for many periods during the night, some of them quite long, so even the "LD" part of WILD would not happen all night long. On a personal, anecdotal, note: I've done this a few times in my life (it is not easy), and I don't remember ever feeling particularly "unrested" upon reentering the waking world in the morning. Indeed, the only times I ever feel exhausted -- like I spent more energy than I restored in my sleep -- are after long late-morning LD's that followed a nights sleep, meaning that they happened long after I would normally have woken up (after 8-10 hrs of sleep or more). Plus, my lucidity and activity level were very high in those exhausting LD's; low-level lucids where I am just enjoying the show never make me tired, whenever I have them. As long as I'm here: I highly recommend that every accomplished WILDer attempt to have at least one night of constant consciousness in their lives, as it is well worth the effort! So: Yes, you would still get a good night's sleep because no, retaining self-awareness throughout the night is not equal to spending the entire night constantly doing the techniques needed to achieve an individual WILD.

[Avian]

It seems to me like this could be a very reliable way to have a lucid dream. It would really just be only two components, WILDing skill, and patience. A lot of patience...

[Sageous]

^^ A lot of patience. And sure, if you're self-aware all night, LD's would be a given. It might be a good also to out Sivason's DVA Dream Yoga, if you haven't already. Dream yoga is a sort of first step toward Sleep Yoga (dream yoga's big brother) which is effectively the art of being "up" all night.

[Seltiez]

I did it week ago. I wrote even a thread about conscious sleep. So basically its really boring. The dreaming is very small part of the sleep and you experinece constantly these weird sensations that makes you too awake and make you believe your about to dream even though you were hour away. Its too boring but i had crazy lucid dreams and it was really interesting experience. Most of the time when i attempt this i fall asleep. I experimented whole month with this. Usually you end up staying aware for 2 hours and when transinsion to dream happen you already have lost consciousness because staying aware becomes harder the closer you get to rem stage. Im still practising consciouss sleep but its really hard but deffinetly possible. This will save you a lot of trouble. No matter how much you feel like the dreaming is about to start it isnt. Even though you feel you body making these weird sensations they mean nothing just relax. Make sure that you are constantly paying attention how awake you are. If you feel you wakefullness decreasing try to be aware of it. If you feel vibrations they really dont mean anything all you have to is to be aware until you are dreaming nothing else matters. You cant stay still for hours so move lightly you position if you feel strong urge to move. Final tip is you will fail many times and remeber each night the last sensation you remembered before falling asleep and that will be you sign not to fall asleep next day on that stage. Best attitube to start this is by that your only goal and interest is dreaming nothing else matter no sensation,no hypnagocia or anything. You will exprience lots of interesting sensations but you wont dream if you get excited or scared of them. Also i only entered into sleep paralysis when i was about to dream.

[LiquidNitrogen]

I tried to WILD right when I went bed last night and I experienced sleep paralysis and some crazy body sensations and hypnagogia but I couldn't make it into a dream. I stayed in the same state for about an hour. Next time I'll just wake up 4 or 5 hours after I go to bed to WILD. Its a waste of time to do it right when you go to sleep.

[Seltiez]

I tried to WILD right when I went bed last night and I experienced sleep paralysis and some crazy body sensations and hypnagogia but I couldn't make it into a dream. I stayed in the same state for about an hour. Next time I'll just wake up 4 or 5 hours after I go to bed to WILD. Its a waste of time to do it right when you go to sleep. Yeah its waste of time unless your yogi. They are used to meditare hours a day thats why they can easily be conscious entire sleep. I tried to do this again yesterday yesterday except i put alarm 2 hours ahead and fell asleep normally. Then i jus tried to stay aware i didnt manage fully stay aware but i had 1 lucid dream and 4 very vivid dreams which were really easy to remeber.

[Avian]

This is definitely easier said than done. I tried it and after what I think was about 30 minutes I fell asleep. I suppose it would be better to first do normal WILD and become good at sivason's awareness exercises.

[Sageous]

^^ That's a good idea, Avian. Also a good idea is giving yourself some time to learn to do this, with many failed attempts in the process. You do not have to be a dream yogi to hold on to your self-awareness all night, but you do have to invest some time in order to get your head in the right place to defy the natural order of sleep all night, and also to be open to the interesting, exciting, even occasionally transcendental experiences that can be had during that "boring" time between REM periods. Yeah its waste of time unless your yogi. They are used to meditare hours a day thats why they can easily be conscious entire sleep. I tried to do this again yesterday yesterday except i put alarm 2 hours ahead and fell asleep normally. Then i jus tried to stay aware i didnt manage fully stay aware but i had 1 lucid dream and 4 very vivid dreams which were really easy to remeber. Respectfully, Seltiez, I'm not sure that trying and failing to do this once really rates a dismissal like "it's waste of time unless you're a yogi." You do not need to be a yogi to do this (I'm certainly not one), and I personally do not meditate for hours every day, either; I really do not meditate at all, except I suppose for the "lay down, hold still" portion of WILD. Sometimes the really interesting things take a little more effort, even for those who have good LD'ing skills to lessen the work. You might consider giving an "all nighter" some more tries before fully dismissing it -- also, come to think of it, you don't need to go the entire night; start by attempting some WILD's earlier in the night when you know you will be missing REM, see what you find, and then work your way out from there.

[Seltiez]

^^ That's a good idea, Avian. Also a good idea is giving yourself some time to learn to do this, with many failed attempts in the process. You do not have to be a dream yogi to hold on to your self-awareness all night, but you do have to invest some time in order to get your head in the right place to defy the natural order of sleep all night, and also to be open to the interesting, exciting, even occasionally transcendental experiences that can be had during that "boring" time between REM periods. Respectfully, Seltiez, I'm not sure that trying and failing to do this once really rates a dismissal like "it's waste of time unless you're a yogi." You do not need to be a yogi to do this (I'm certainly not one), and I personally do not meditate for hours every day, either; I really do not meditate at all, except I suppose for the "lay down, hold still" portion of WILD. Sometimes the really interesting things take a little more effort, even for those who have good LD'ing skills to lessen the work. You might consider giving an "all nighter" some more tries before fully dismissing it -- also, come to think of it, you don't need to go the entire night; start by attempting some WILD's earlier in the night when you know you will be missing REM, see what you find, and then work your way out from there. I communicate badly in writing. My point was thats its boring between the stages of sleep before dream starts and it is very boring for me to start consciouss sleep at night because it takes time to fall asleep and i wouldnt want go trough that every night its much better wake later at night and then stay consciouss then. I find it mentally excausting thats why i said its waste of time and refferred to yogi because of their patience. I rather be unsciounses at start of sleep because it takes time for me to fall to dream. I find it much easier to have to stay consciouss and still after you have gone trough first sleep cycle because i feel relaxed and dont get bored but thanks for correcting me. I dont want to discourage anybody.

[Ctharlhie]

I think this thread raises a very common misconception that WILD is 'passing straight into REM' when, I would suggest, WILD will always involve NREM stages - what differs is how long you will spend in NREM, and whether you will pass through stage 3/delta/deep sleep (depending on how many hours of prior sleep you clocked before your attempt). The one person I know to take intuitively to WILD, without instruction and from only my rough description of the phenomena, still maintains (perversely it seems to we who know better) that he finds WILDing easiest first thing at bedtime. But he seems to have phenomenal skills in auto-suggestive relaxation.

[Avian]

I think this thread raises a very common misconception that WILD is 'passing straight into REM' when, I would suggest, WILD will always involve NREM stages - what differs is how long you will spend in NREM, and whether you will pass through stage 3/delta/deep sleep (depending on how many hours of prior sleep you clocked before your attempt). The one person I know to take intuitively to WILD, without instruction and from only my rough description of the phenomena, still maintains (perversely it seems to we who know better) that he finds WILDing easiest first thing at bedtime. But he seems to have phenomenal skills in auto-suggestive relaxation. From what I know it seems certain people can do WILD or other techniques at the beginning of their sleep. I think that sleep patterns aren't necessarily set in stone, and some people can enter REM much more quickly.

[Ctharlhie]

You'd think, but his attempts take an hour or more. I know, it's beggar's belief. ^Passive aggressive jealousy

[Seltiez]

From what I know it seems certain people can do WILD or other techniques at the beginning of their sleep. I think that sleep patterns aren't necessarily set in stone, and some people can enter REM much more quickly. I dont think there is much difference with people entering rem stage. Its not easy its really hard. When i say hard it means it requires effort. Staying conscious trough sleep requires a lot of patience. I dont have that good wilding skills even. Its all about effort patience and meditative mindset. It feels really long until you realize you are in a dream. Also the fact that you experience very weird sensations and very vivid visual images and multiple other things doesnt help it all because it doesnt mean that your close to dreaming. I felt like i went trough 5 times trough this stage which icould be entering nrem stage. I tried this all most a month until i suceeded to stay fully consciouss entire night. I still wasnt aware of everything. I can say for fact that this experimenting has helped me wild with much less effort. I this consciouss sleep can be suceeded only trough failure. Maybe some suceed in it easier but o can say it wasnt easy for me. Keep at it and i think you suceed. Im gonna keep at it since i believe this will lead me to have a lot more of lucid dreams since i create habit of staying aware in sleep. I have noticed my dream become much more vivid an easy to remeber. I dont want anybody to try this because of mesince i cant help but worry what this would do people with insomnia.

[Sageous]

So I woke up this morning thinking about this thread, God help me. I realized that, in my excitement about maintaining self-awareness all night, I suppose, I talked about the wrong thing earlier. So: No, attempting a WILD all night, starting at that night's beginning, is not a good idea (for reasons Seltiez and Ctharlhie already discussed, so I won't go there). If you're going to do a WILD, do a WILD at the best time possible time (usually* after a WBTB following 5 or more hours' sleep). Given the amount of work, patience, and waiting involved in a WILD, trying to do one all night -- particularly in that first hour or two -- seems a bit masochistic to me. So, if you're after the Delta Dreaming experience, go for the "up all night" plan, but if you're after WILD, choose the optimum time over all of it. Yes, if you are in the habit of staying self-aware all night, WILD's will be easy (indeed, they will be a given), but there is no point spending the necessary years developing that habit just to make your WILD's easier. There are other ways. * As long as I'm here: The one person I know to take intuitively to WILD, without instruction and from only my rough description of the phenomena, still maintains (perversely it seems to we who know better) that he finds WILDing easiest first thing at bedtime. But he seems to have phenomenal skills in auto-suggestive relaxation. That certainly does beggar the imagination, doesn't it? I've gotten that report/story myself from various people over the years (oddly, also from people who I had recently just told about LD'ing), and have always wondered about the reporters' motives as much as about their phenomenal, even serendipitous skills. I usually became a bit cynical and assumed they were attempting to impress, or maybe just confused or excited about what happened to them. That said: I have WILDed at bedtime many times, but success came very rarely (that "many times" was enveloped in several years' worth of attempts). I have an excuse, though: remember that I learned how to do this stuff years before the WILD acronym was coined, much less the WBTB era, so I had yet to know better. Doing this was by no means easy, and it came after I had already LD'ed hundreds of times, mostly DILDs. Also, starting the night with a WILD never led to an entire night of WILDing. Just sayin'...

[Avian]

Well I am looking for the all-night awareness experience, but I am going to take it slowly instead. That is too big of a step for me. As for your comment about LDing before the term WILD was coined, that kind of sparked my interest. I know a good amount about how monks have used lucid dreams and current events such as new research and breakthroughs about dreaming, but I don't know much about recent history. Could you explain how lucid dreaming became so popular and widely known in the West, and when (I have always assumed it came with the explosion of "Eastern" practices in America, but I don't really know)?

[LDman]

Two nights ago after a WBTB I did my WILD and succeeded in archieving a near LD (5-10 seconds), when I'm just about to go from awake to dream my whole head becomes fuzzy and I loose all feeling in my body. My question is, is this consciously falling asleep or entering REM? I once red an article about an experiment with mice in which they put them in a bucket on a small platform surounded by water. They found out the mouse could sleep and stay on the platform except for when it entered REM, upon entering REM the mouse would fall in the water and be woken up. Of cours the stress from REM-deprivation soon killed the mouse. Is this what I'm feeling when I WILD and does entering NREM feel differently?

[Sageous]

Could you explain how lucid dreaming became so popular and widely known in the West, and when (I have always assumed it came with the explosion of "Eastern" practices in America, but I don't really know)? I would say that LD'ing has not become popular or widely known in the West (or the East, for that matter), and that, in the Grand Scheme of Things, it's about as popular and practiced as it was when I was a kid back in the 1970's. Yes, it has gained a small increase in popularity thanks to the internet, and for some reason has, according to Steph, become quite popular in Germany, but I really believe that most of the people who practice -- and stick with practicing -- consistent LD'ing probably has not gone up very much. It's climbing, yes, but hasn't approached the level of "popular" yet, in my opinion. There may have been a tiny burst after LaBerge wrote EWOLD, which actually was coinciding with a burst of popular introspection during the New Age movement in the '80's & '90's (aka, that "explosion of Eastern Practices), and fueled by technological developments and movies like Dreamscape and Altered States. But I would bet that if I asked a hundred people what they thought lucid dreaming was, much less do they do it, I would still get 90 people just looking at me funny. The Internet creates an interesting illusion of popularity sometimes: I think that if you looked at the traffic of this site, easily the most visited LD'ing site, you will find that its overall ranking is far below what could be conceived as popular. I could be wrong, of course, but that is my (very brief) take on the history, anyway.

[Seltiez]

Two nights ago after a WBTB I did my WILD and succeeded in archieving a near LD (5-10 seconds), when I'm just about to go from awake to dream my whole head becomes fuzzy and I loose all feeling in my body. My question is, is this consciously falling asleep or entering REM? I once red an article about an experiment with mice in which they put them in a bucket on a small platform surounded by water. They found out the mouse could sleep and stay on the platform except for when it entered REM, upon entering REM the mouse would fall in the water and be woken up. Of cours the stress from REM-deprivation soon killed the mouse. Is this what I'm feeling when I WILD and does entering NREM feel differently? If you had a dream that was a wild. If not failed wild. Falling to dream consciously is wild which means you can only wild when you enter from waking stage to rem concsiously. Conscious sleep is sleeping consciously. Being aware of whole process of sleep and dream. We dont dream the whole process of sleep its small part of it. I dont reconize which is nrem stage since trough out the sleep you exprience weird sensations which include you going to nrem sleep. Little before i enter a dream i lose sense of my body where i enter this nothingness where the dream start forming itself which probaply is the rem stage. Either the nothingness is deepest stage in nrem or the really weird sensations. Trough out the sleeping i experienced very vivid imaginary, hear voices, felt disorientation of my body, felt my self outside of my body, dream scenes, weird changes in mindset and every other things could be nrem. I do notice these changes in these sensations which could be entering different stage of nrem but i always felt like 5 times the sensations changing and i dont think there are that many nrem stages. There happens so much of these sensations thats its impossible without some brainwave monitor to tell which is nrem.

[LDman]

If you had a dream that was a wild. If not failed wild. Falling to dream consciously is wild which means you can only wild when you enter from waking stage to rem concsiously. Conscious sleep is sleeping consciously. Being aware of whole process of sleep and dream. We dont dream the whole process of sleep its small part of it. I dont reconize which is nrem stage since trough out the sleep you exprience weird sensations which include you going to nrem sleep. Little before i enter a dream i lose sense of my body where i enter this nothingness where the dream start forming itself which probaply is the rem stage. Either the nothingness is deepest stage in nrem or the really weird sensations. Trough out the sleeping i experienced very vivid imaginary, hear voices, felt disorientation of my body, felt my self outside of my body, dream scenes, weird changes in mindset and every other things could be nrem. I do notice these changes in these sensations which could be entering different stage of nrem but i always felt like 5 times the sensations changing and i dont think there are that many nrem stages. There happens so much of these sensations thats its impossible without some brainwave monitor to tell which is nrem. Ugh, the voices... Last night (one night later than previous post) I gave it another shot, however I think I was a bit lazy and let my mind slip of sometimes. I accidently thought of several horror films and games, and before I realized it I heared this disformed low mumble voice just outside my room. The bedroom doors in our house are always open so I opened my eyes to look, something was peeking it's head around the corner. At first I thought it was my dad as it was almost 06:00 and he gets up around that hour, however after my eyes adjusted for a second I noticed the head was spasticly jerking left to right. At this point I briefly enter full panic and look away only to find out it's now floating above, still making these horrifying mumbles. I close my eyes as tight as I can and the only thing I can do besides looking around is breathing which I did very loudly at that point. Fortunatly it left after several seconds and I didn't bother about it much after.

[Seltiez]

Ugh, the voices... Last night (one night later than previous post) I gave it another shot, however I think I was a bit lazy and let my mind slip of sometimes. I accidently thought of several horror films and games, and before I realized it I heared this disformed low mumble voice just outside my room. The bedroom doors in our house are always open so I opened my eyes to look, something was peeking it's head around the corner. At first I thought it was my dad as it was almost 06:00 and he gets up around that hour, however after my eyes adjusted for a second I noticed the head was spasticly jerking left to right. At this point I briefly enter full panic and look away only to find out it's now floating above, still making these horrifying mumbles. I close my eyes as tight as I can and the only thing I can do besides looking around is breathing which I did very loudly at that point. Fortunatly it left after several seconds and I didn't bother about it much after. Those are fun.. I once heard this growling noise at end of my bed and i then felt preasure above my blanket. I then came up the idea someone was crawling on top of me it was f****g grudge!! It was so clear with her white face and bloody mouth growling and climbing on top of me so i closed my eyes and got rid of it trough reasoning. Once the feeling of terror disappeared i thought it was cool. Now if hear these voices i just kind mentally send this shut up message to stop them and they dissapear. If you dont manifest them into something there wont be anything but if you fear that something is near you then you will face this hedious mind of yours. I hate this only when i halluscinate sense of touch. Its so terrifiying when you feel them touching you it makes it 100x more real. My biggest fear is to see giant spider on top of me so i make sure as soon as i halluscinate something that it dissapear imiediettally before it manifests.