Thread: Memory: the Forgotten Fundamental

Originally Posted by sivason

I have run into an interesting and hard (for me) to understand situation in a few lucids. That is that when I preform one of these memory things, I do not get access to anything beyond a certain point in my life, leading me to false conclusions.

Basically, I would try to remember where my body was located (easy enough? not always) and draw a total blank. To deal with this I would scan my memory for the most chronlogically advanced memory available to me. On a few occassions the entire later portion of my life was not scanable. I mean my house and my wife of 8 years and all things related like a job I have had that long, did not seem to exist. I would find the newest memory and draw the conclusion that it was winter of 2004 and I was in graduate school.

I just thought I would throw this out there. I have plenty of training, but occassionally this happens, and at the time it seems real.

I'm also trying to train myself to really examine memories for accuracy, because I know sometimes they're false in dreams. Not sure how well that's going to come out in a dream, but it's something else to throw out for consideration.

I'm sure Sageous' idea is correct.

In my last lucid dreams I've always spent a few moments, as soon as I realise it's a dream, to perceive my lucid body, and these dreams has been much more felt than past ones.
I believe I've achieved this exactly because focusing on my body I feel the difference between my oneiric one and my physical one, and so I have a better conscious understanding of the separation between the two worlds, which leads me to transpose my wake memory to my "dream me".

Originally Posted by Synergeon

I'm sure Sageous' idea is correct.

In my last lucid dreams I've always spent a few moments, as soon as I realise it's a dream, to perceive my lucid body, and these dreams has been much more felt than past ones.
I believe I've achieved this exactly because focusing on my body I feel the difference between my oneiric one and my physical one, and so I have a better conscious understanding of the separation between the two worlds, which leads me to transpose my wake memory to my "dream me".

I wonder if incorporating more interoceptive awareness into daily awareness practice might be of value? That is, not only focusing on what you see, hear, smell, touch and taste, but also how you feel about yourself, your physiological condition and how your relationship with experience shapes it?

Does autobiographical memory have a feeling to it? Idk, but may be it could help. Then we could use it as a feedback system, in order to be in touch with it ? So one would generate self memories and then switch to the after feeling and try to not completely forget this feeling during the day. To access waking life memory would be enough to lucidity, i think.

Originally Posted by VagalTone

Does autobiographical memory have a feeling to it? Idk, but may be it could help. Then we could use it as a feedback system, in order to be in touch with it ? So one would generate self memories and then switch to the after feeling and try to not completely forget this feeling during the day. To access waking life memory would be enough to lucidity, i think.

I don't know if it can be described as a feeling but I would say "openness to the current situation", not shutting anything off, not being choosy, just being open and creative with whatever is. Then you absorb like a sponge.

I'm sure everyone has experienced this, usually when you're doing something you like doing.

So had a lucid dream. Flew around a bunch. Then as the dream was sort of fading already (a kind of knowing that it would) I remembered I am just messing around not really fully lucid. OR not really accessing my actual goals. So I did remember my dreaming body easily but I woke up seconds after that. Unfortunately, failed test. But somehow I have a feeling that this thread had something to do with my lucidity initially. I just felt at the start of the dream that I was not having enough energy to begin with.

This morning's LDs are proof that I need work in this area.

Because of this thread, I started the dream by asking myself "where am I right now", "what is the date", and "what is the time". I was surprised by how accurately I was able to answer those questions, and I don't think it's a coincidence that of the subsequent 6-DEILD string I had after this initial WILD, it was the only one where I remembered to act on my waking goals for that session. Additionally, it was the only one that I can recall significant details about despite it being the "oldest" LD of that session.

To be honest, I'm a little concerned about the impact my memory is having on my LDs because, even in my waking life, I've always suffered from poor memory -- well not 'poor' so much as inconsistent. I'm not sure if it's related to a lack of good sleep (mild insomnia), if it's genetic (my mother has the same spotty memory), or if it's just a general lack of paying attention. Whatever the cause is, I have feeling improving memory is going to be particularly challenging for me.

Some more quick comments:

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I'm also trying to train myself to really examine memories for accuracy, because I know sometimes they're false in dreams. Not sure how well that's going to come out in a dream, but it's something else to throw out for consideration.

You might be better off just assuming the "memories" your dreaming mind is presenting are either incorrect or incompatible with your current waking-life (i.e., the high school you are dreaming about is reasonably well-represented, but you don't go there anymore, so it should not be including in a memory of current waking-life). The bucket your unconscious draws from for dream schemata supplies is not concerned about accuracy or proper timing, so you will likely get yourself caught up in a flow of discovering false memories, which ironically might lead you toward less lucidity, and not more.

Try sticking to remembering where your body is sleeping, and things like TheUncanny used in his post... proving their accuracy might be trouble enough!

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I wonder if incorporating more interoceptive awareness into daily awareness practice might be of value? That is, not only focusing on what you see, hear, smell, touch and taste, but also how you feel about yourself, your physiological condition and how your relationship with experience shapes it?

That's a good idea in itself, and would certainly help with self-awareness, but I'm not sure it will do much to restore your link with your memory. This is because your DC body and dreaming mind will have an answer on hand to all those things you are focusing on, and you might not be led to assume that anything is wrong, or something else ought to be remembered (if that is where you were going).

So, this is an excellent here&now exercise, and I definitely recommend it, but the here&now is a place from which you want to briefly step away in order to access memory.. once memory is accessed, though, definitely go back to it!

If I misunderstood, please clarify, because this is an interesting idea, and if it could be used to link with memory, that would be very good.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

So had a lucid dream. Flew around a bunch. Then as the dream was sort of fading already (a kind of knowing that it would) I remembered I am just messing around not really fully lucid. OR not really accessing my actual goals. So I did remember my dreaming body easily but I woke up seconds after that. Unfortunately, failed test.

I wonder if you were very close to waking up, when you tried to remember. When wakefulness is close, accessing memory might not be the best of ideas, because I would probably only hastening your return to waking-life. Should I have mentioned that before?

But somehow I have a feeling that this thread had something to do with my lucidity initially. I just felt at the start of the dream that I was not having enough energy to begin with.

That's pretty cool!

Originally Posted by TheUncanny

To be honest, I'm a little concerned about the impact my memory is having on my LDs because, even in my waking life, I've always suffered from poor memory -- well not 'poor' so much as inconsistent. I'm not sure if it's related to a lack of good sleep (mild insomnia), if it's genetic (my mother has the same spotty memory), or if it's just a general lack of paying attention. Whatever the cause is, I have feeling improving memory is going to be particularly challenging for me.

Here's a ray of hope: you can have poor memory (I sure do, and it seems to get worse every year) and still remember your sleeping body to access memory during a LD. This is because remembering your sleeping body (or the date and time) is not quite the same as gathering information to produce a memory.

Instead, what you are doing when remembering your sleeping body is making a self-awareness-driven conscious effort to reconnect with the memory that is already stored and established; it's the conscious effort that comes into play here, and not actually remembering something. So the sleeping body is a catalyst, and not an actual thing to be remembered. Seems contradictory that remembering your sleeping body is not actually remembering something, but what about LD'ing isn't contradictory?

Originally Posted by Sageous

You might be better off just assuming the "memories" your dreaming mind is presenting are either incorrect or incompatible with your current waking-life (i.e., the high school you are dreaming about is reasonably well-represented, but you don't go there anymore, so it should not be including in a memory of current waking-life). The bucket your unconscious draws from for dream schemata supplies is not concerned about accuracy or proper timing, so you will likely get yourself caught up in a flow of discovering false memories, which ironically might lead you toward less lucidity, and not more.

Try sticking to remembering where your body is sleeping, and things like TheUncanny used in his post... proving their accuracy might be trouble enough!

It is worth noting that in the example I gave of coming to a false conclusion (that I was asleep in my college apartment in the winter of 2003) STILL served the function of pulling true waking awareness into the dream.

The conclusion of "where" my body was located was not accurate, but the act of establishing that the dream body was distinct and seperate from my physical body, served the same function as if I had realized it was 2013 and I was in a hotel room..

I do think trying to remember what you were doing right before bed and what phase of your life (generally) you are in is a good exercise, but the truth of your conclusion is not so important.

Saw a discussion where Sati is referred to as "to remember [to do something]", so to remember to take note of your breathing. So mindfulness / sati is basically that thing that brings you back to what you should be focused on.

So it's not quite the normal way of using memory like Sageous says, it's more like an alarm that goes off when you've gone off track which signals you to remember what you should be doing.

Which is exactly what you'd want to induce LDs, since when we dream we drift away, the stronger your mindfulness the easier it is to come back to lucidity during a dream.

Memm,

This is my interpretation of what everyone is saying, but to me, it seems that there is a difference between Sati and what Sageous is referring to. The goal of memory in lucid dreaming is not prospective memory: to be able to remember things you intended to remember at a specific moment in the future. Instead, the relevance of memory in the context of lucid dreaming, is to access your memory storage room. Getting the key that allows you to enter our memory storage room is what allows us to gain "waking life awareness".

The goal is not only to remember specifically that your body is in a bed, but to be able to experience the dream world somewhat like the waking world, where you are aware of your context, past and future.

Example (Sageous Memory Concept in blue, Prospective memory in green):

I am in the middle of a desert. Giant peacocks are selling tents. I need a tent because I will be cold tonight. No. My body is in my bed. I am dreaming. My goal is to eat chocolate. This place is interesting, I might talk to these peacock merchants instead.
"Hello, sir."
"Hello traveler, will you buy a tent?"
Oh god, this experience is so real. I might have traveled to another dimension! I might need a tent if I'm here very long! But I know, I go to sleep, have dreams and wake up after. I don't need a tent.
"Tell me, sir, why do you sell tents?" I feel the feathers, play at the sand with my foot and feel the roof of my mouth with my tongue. Wow, this is amazing, that I can see those things!
"I started selling tents when my parents died during the meteor accident."
What an interesting story. I might as well play along? and accomplish my goal!
"Will you guide me to this meteor? I know these meteors are made of chocolate. You could feed your people with it! Show me."

Okay, I'm sorry, if this made-on-the-spot story/example was not the best analogy. The importance for me, is more about the state of mind than the "practicality". The fact, that you have this access to memory, which allows you to assess the context of what is going on at any time, no matter what is happening. Because the inability to do that is what causes us to be "illogical" in dreams since we just take every moment at a time and ignore the past and future.

It's all hard to explain, but I feel like I understand this, in theory anyways. I will be seeking to get to this tonight. I tried last night but didn't get to it. It was a beautiful dream though. I found a jungle in the north pole. But during the whole dream, I was fleeing this place I wanted to explore because I felt that the authorities would not let me tell the world about my finding. I crossed a ballroom from Renaissance and traveled outside a high velocity train through a modern city. It was all beautiful and great, but I did it all in a rush, thinking I had to flee, not realizing that I was dreaming, not understanding my true context, and unable to truly appreciate each part. Obviously, these were good dreams for me, just like someone who is super focused on painting a painting may become disconnected with his context in the world. But something I find amazing with dreams, is being fully aware while I should be asleep, when I should not be able to be fully aware and experiencing such intense experiences. And that's why I want to include this "memory" portion to them.

I know I'm rambling about something I have never experienced, but, hey, I'm working on changing that.

EDIT: and to add to what Sivason is saying about memory not having to be accurate, I obviously have to trust that to be true until I can experience it myself. I feel that as long as you recognize your memories are flawed, it is all good. Truly though, I realize that a person cannot become aware of everything that is in a single moment, any truth and mindfulness we can acquire in waking or sleeping state is priceless. But they cannot possibly be perfect and permanent so the rest is also valuable.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Here's a ray of hope: you can have poor memory (I sure do, and it seems to get worse every year) and still remember your sleeping body to access memory during a LD. This is because remembering your sleeping body (or the date and time) is not quite the same as gathering information to produce a memory.

Instead, what you are doing when remembering your sleeping body is making a self-awareness-driven conscious effort to reconnect with the memory that is already stored and established; it's the conscious effort that comes into play here, and not actually remembering something. So the sleeping body is a catalyst, and not an actual thing to be remembered. Seems contradictory that remembering your sleeping body is not actually remembering something, but what about LD'ing isn't contradictory?

Hope is good, but I'm a little confused -- are you saying that the act of remembering is what's important, but not necessarily what you remember?

^^ Yes. The act of remembering your sleeping body, of adding something that you know to be true to the fictitious timeline your dreaming mind has created, is enough to reassociate your self-aware dreaming self with its memory. It isn't that you are creating a memory of your sleeping body, but that you are thinking about something obviously real from your recent past -- and present -- that defies the memory implanted by the dream. This defiance, this need to clarify the juxtaposition of the false or missing dream memory with an actual event, can be enough to re-engage your link to your memory... and this engagement further empowers your self-awareness because now you can remember where you really were a few minutes ago, where you really are right now, and that this dream body really isn't you.

So remembering your sleeping body is not about creating a memory, but about actively reminding yourself, with an event that's actually going on right now (your sleeping body) but is not included in your dream schema, that there is actual memory available.

... I hope this post made sense, as I wrote it very quickly...

Originally Posted by Sageous

So remembering your sleeping body is not about creating a memory, but about actively reminding yourself, with an event that's actually going on right now (your sleeping body) but is not included in your dream schema, that there is actual memory available.

I think that was partly where I was going by incorporating a good amount of interoceptive awareness into daily awareness practice. I can't say it's a correct approach because I've never been aware in a dream. It was just a gut feeling that it might facilitate that reminder, possibly by noticing inconsistencies between that sense in dream vs. waking reality.

I think I understand. By remembering something that is real, but contradictory to the dream, you create cognitive dissonance. The mind naturally wants to resolve this dissonance, but can only do so by attaining a certain level of situational awareness. Or in short, you give the mind no choice but to question the nature of the environment it's in by drawing attention to said paradoxes (ex. being in one place yet remembering that you're actually in bed)

A while ago I was trying some memory experiments along these lines. I had a hypothesis that it might be easier to remember past dreams while dreaming, but to my surprise that didn't work well at all. Memories of waking life were more reliable, but sometimes amusingly out-of-date like Sivason described earlier. I also noticed a remarkable degree of reluctance on the part of my dreaming mind to perform this task, like it didn't want to have to remember.

However, the real stumbling block came whenever I tried to think about my sleeping body... and woke up. This happens every time. The minute I let my thoughts stray to the fact that my physical body is actually lying in bed, the dream dissolves and there I am lying in bed, even if I had no desire or intention to wake up. At this point when I'm dreaming I'm careful not to think about my sleeping body, because I've never found a way to do it without ending the dream.

Any suggestions?

Just a thought, but has anyone ever tried to meditate in a LD?

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Just a thought, but has anyone ever tried to meditate in a LD?

A few years back, I remember considering it as a way to extend dream time (here is the link to the post), but I don't believe I ever got around to trying it. I also talked about false memories in dreams, and even theorized of ways one might be able to cultivate them (I think Inception had just come out lol, but still an interesting read!).

Originally Posted by Verre

However, the real stumbling block came whenever I tried to think about my sleeping body... and woke up. This happens every time. The minute I let my thoughts stray to the fact that my physical body is actually lying in bed, the dream dissolves and there I am lying in bed, even if I had no desire or intention to wake up. At this point when I'm dreaming I'm careful not to think about my sleeping body, because I've never found a way to do it without ending the dream.

Any suggestions?

Suggestion? How about not thinking about your sleeping body?

Seriously, there is an exception to every rule. If thinking about your sleeping body consistently ends your dream and sleep, then that is not a thing for you to do... I wouldn't even recommend trying not to think about it, come to think of it. I can't really know what causes this, though it could be because your LD's occur very close to waking, so any thought of waking-life things, like your sleeping body, might spur your body into waking up.

Instead of thinking of your sleeping body, you could take TheUncanny's advice and recite the correct day/date, and maybe the time of day you assume it is. You could also ask yourself what you were doing fifteen minutes earlier, and consider the answer you get (or don't get). None of these have quite the same effect on self-awareness and memory as remembering where your sleeping body is, but they will point you in the right direction.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Yes. The act of remembering your sleeping body, of adding something that you know to be true to the fictitious timeline your dreaming mind has created, is enough to reassociate your self-aware dreaming self with its memory. It isn't that you are creating a memory of your sleeping body, but that you are thinking about something obviously real from your recent past -- and present -- that defies the memory implanted by the dream. This defiance, this need to clarify the juxtaposition of the false or missing dream memory with an actual event, can be enough to re-engage your link to your memory... and this engagement further empowers your self-awareness because now you can remember where you really were a few minutes ago, where you really are right now, and that this dream body really isn't you.

I think I'm learning something new today. But I reread this thread a few times and am still not 100% sure I'm clear on what is said, so just to be sure: In a LD, if I remember to try to remember, say, where my sleeping body is, I still get the benefit, even if I don't actually manage to recall for sure where it is, or I come to the wrong conclusion/have a false memory?

But if doing this reengages the link to my memory, shouldn't I be able to recall this (in the cases where I don't)? Or is this “link” you speak of not the same thing as actually being able to flawlessly recall things, consciously, from WL during the dream?

Originally Posted by Verre

A while ago I was trying some memory experiments along these lines. I had a hypothesis that it might be easier to remember past dreams while dreaming, but to my surprise that didn't work well at all. Memories of waking life were more reliable, but sometimes amusingly out-of-date like Sivason described earlier. I also noticed a remarkable degree of reluctance on the part of my dreaming mind to perform this task, like it didn't want to have to remember.

I notice the same thing right now. A reluctance. Basically I am fatigued. Feeling a bit like shit to be honest. And having to remember past experiences good or bad is like having to deal with reality. Not saying ur situation is similar. But cultivating past the reluctance (sheer willpower) seems worthwhile in dreams but also in waking life.

Originally Posted by Travis E.

I think I'm learning something new today. But I reread this thread a few times and am still not 100% sure I'm clear on what is said, so just to be sure: In a LD, if I remember to try to remember, say, where my sleeping body is, I still get the benefit, even if I don't actually manage to recall for sure where it is, or I come to the wrong conclusion/have a false memory?

But if doing this reengages the link to my memory, shouldn't I be able to recall this (in the cases where I don't)? Or is this “link” you speak of not the same thing as actually being able to flawlessly recall things, consciously, from WL during the dream?

I will take a stab at simplifying this concept, although I may not say it exactly like Sageous would:


If you become lucid, in that you know it is a dream, there is still a large portion of your mind that feels you are actually experiencing this stuff.

In truth, this is 100% a virtual reality. Failing to honestly grasp the fact that it is 100% illusion seriously limits your control and ability to think rationally.

A method of making yourself truly grasp that nothing about the dream comes from any source other than your own mind, is to grasp the reality that you are in fact sleeping.

Simply saying "this is a dream" is not really enough. The act of remembering details about real life, such as the day or that you are asleep on the couch, removes most all belief that any part of this is real.

To do something as advanced as remembering the location of your body, you will need to scan your waking memory.

This act stimulates your rational mind, and enhances the ability to fully realize you are in a virtual reality, and therefore subject to no laws of physics.



That is how I would summarize it. Sageous may have a point or two to add, but that is the general method.






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Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Just a thought, but has anyone ever tried to meditate in a LD?

Sure, you can meditate if that is what you want to do. It is a very good way to pass the time in states like delta. I would hold off on it unless the dream is very stable, as you could drift into non-lucidity.




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Originally Posted by Verre

A while ago I was trying some memory experiments along these lines. I had a hypothesis that it might be easier to remember past dreams while dreaming, but to my surprise that didn't work well at all. Memories of waking life were more reliable, but sometimes amusingly out-of-date like Sivason described earlier. I also noticed a remarkable degree of reluctance on the part of my dreaming mind to perform this task, like it didn't want to have to remember.

However, the real stumbling block came whenever I tried to think about my sleeping body... and woke up. This happens every time. The minute I let my thoughts stray to the fact that my physical body is actually lying in bed, the dream dissolves and there I am lying in bed, even if I had no desire or intention to wake up. At this point when I'm dreaming I'm careful not to think about my sleeping body, because I've never found a way to do it without ending the dream.

Any suggestions?

1) I have often had memories of other dreams only while in a lucid dream. I do not know why, but it is something I have noticed.

2) Try not to feel where your body is, it is possible, but risky. Instead keep it an intellectual scanning thing. It will work well enough to just ask if you are sleeping in your normal place (bed) or are you sleeping on your desk at school.

^^ Well said, Sivason.

Also:

Originally Posted by Travis E.

I think I'm learning something new today. But I reread this thread a few times and am still not 100% sure I'm clear on what is said, so just to be sure: In a LD, if I remember to try to remember, say, where my sleeping body is, I still get the benefit, even if I don't actually manage to recall for sure where it is, or I come to the wrong conclusion/have a false memory?

I think you really must actually remember your sleeping body (or similar) for this to work. It is the recognition that the dream body you are currently occupying is not your true body that is important here. If you are unable to do so, then you might not be able to access your memory (or fully sustain lucidity, for that matter).

But if doing this reengages the link to my memory, shouldn't I be able to recall this (in the cases where I don't)? Or is this “link” you speak of not the same thing as actually being able to flawlessly recall things, consciously, from WL during the dream?

Yes, if the link is reengaged, remembering your sleeping body (and most other things) should not be a problem. I don't know about flawlessly, but once you can tap into your memory with your waking-life self-awareness intact, remembering things should be the same as they are as in waking-life.

I think TheUncanny summarized this bit about remembering your sleeping body well with this:

Originally Posted by TheUncanny

By remembering something that is real, but contradictory to the dream, you create cognitive dissonance. The mind naturally wants to resolve this dissonance, but can only do so by attaining a certain level of situational awareness. Or in short, you give the mind no choice but to question the nature of the environment it's in by drawing attention to said paradoxes (ex. being in one place yet remembering that you're actually in bed)

After reading it carefully, this is an amazing thread, full of great experience and honesty! I was actually wondering before reading Verre's post if anyone would bring up that issue of waking up when thinking about the body.
But thinking about the place where you are sleeping, as Sivason said, may be enough to create that dissonance of sleeping vs not sleeping.

Also, stunned about Nfri's post and Thomas Yuschak suggestion. Really recommended!

Sageous, if you have more secrets please share
Can we now say proudfully that nonlucidity means inacessible past memory?

I wish everyone and myself the next level of lucid dreaming in our hands !