Thread: Memory: the Forgotten Fundamental

^^ In other words, you're really not buying any of this, are you, Sivason?

That's okay, given that you're as well-versed in the art of LD'ing as anyone, but maybe you might consider this:

Can you really fully grasp with 100% assurety that your dream isn't real without tapping your memory for verification, without access to it at all? 3Cat's example above has some presence of memory in it, doesn't it? Unless of course he non-lucidly dreamed his recollection of the DV conversation, which is possible (and also could lead to a false memory, I suppose). And, even if you fully grasped that your dream is not real, wouldn't you still need memory to, say, rise above provided false episodic memories and, more importantly, truly have your entire Self present in the dream?

Perhaps, Sivason, in your own LD's you are accessing memory regularly, but just haven't given it's presence much consideration... you might be taking your memory skills for granted, then, given that they might be a bit too close to notice!

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ In other words, you're really not buying any of this, are you, Sivason?

That's okay, given that you're as well-versed in the art of LD'ing as anyone, but maybe you might consider this:

Can you really fully grasp with 100% assurity that your dream isn't real without tapping your memory for verification, without access to it at all? 3Cat's example above has some presence of memory in it, doesn't it? Unless of course he non-lucidly dreamed his recollection of the DV conversation, which is possible (and also could lead to a false memory, I suppose). And, even if you fully grasped that your dream is not real, wouldn't you still need memory to, say, rise above provided false episodic memories and, more importantly, truly have your entire Self present in the dream?

Perhaps, Sivason, in your own LD's you are accessing memory regularly, but just haven't given it's presence much consideration... you might be taking your memory skills for granted, then, given that they might be a bit too close to notice!

In this case you completely misunderstand me. I do agree with all of this and think it is fundamental to true control and having full waking awareness.

The point I was making (and have stated a couple times in this thread) is that the act of accessing waking memory can be just as effective regardless of oddities, such as false conclusions as to the location of the body or the year (phase of life). Here is the thing, if you think you are in 2002 or 1989 but you have truly grasped that you are asleep and in a dream, while gaining some what full insight into who you are and what makes you an individual, you still gain the benefit of this practice. True, you for some reason were denied access to many parts of your later life (for some odd reason) but still gain the full awareness of the fact that you are experiencing a virtual world that has nothing to do with anything physical. You know anything the dream creates is a product of thought. The only thing you lack is some episodic memories, and you do not really need many of those to function well.

Maybe, there is something in your message that does not fit this? If so please try to explain, but I certainly was not disagreeing with the principle I have believed you were discussing.

Originally Posted by sivason

In this case you completely misunderstand me. I do agree with all of this and think it is fundamental to true control and having full waking awareness.

That's nice to hear! Maybe we're really talking about the same thing, but with different words (I do that a lot):

The point I was making (and have stated a couple times in this thread) is that the act of accessing waking memory can be just as effective regardless of oddities, such as false conclusions as to the location of the body or the year (phase of life). Here is the thing, if you think you are in 2002 or 1989 but you have truly grasped that you are asleep and in a dream, while gaining some what full insight into who you are and what makes you an individual, you still gain the benefit of this practice. True, you for some reason were denied access to many parts of your later life (for some odd reason) but still gain the full awareness of the fact that you are experiencing a virtual world that has nothing to do with anything physical. You know anything the dream creates is a product of thought. The only thing you lack is some episodic memories, and you do not really need many of those to function well.

I think what I'm trying to say is that, when you reunite with your memory during a LD, there will be no oddities, skipped decades, false memories, or false conclusions about the location of your sleeping body. That imagery can and will happen, but you will understand their false nature, or perhaps admire your dreaming mind's ability to alter your history (I do that a lot too). With access to your memory, and therefore full understanding of the nature of your dreamworld in the context of it being a part of your overall Self -- which is also with you, because of memory.

Even if during your LD you think you are, say, in the wrong year, or sleeping in the wrong house, or the phone number you remember (another good exercise, BTW) just doesn't make sense, but you still cannot understand why those things are wrong because you've failed to fully access memory, I don't believe that you can gain full insight into who you are and what makes you an individual. This is because a major part of "You" still lies in thrall to the dream state, and conversely so very much of "You" is defined by your memory (your memory in general, and not specific episodic memories). Without connecting with your active memory, you cannot, for instance, realize that your dream is trying to give you 1989 as the correct year for a reason (maybe it was the year you got married, and your anniversary is tomorrow). Also, and far more importantly, without access to active memory, and again not specific episodic memories from any time or place, you are exploring your LD within the constraints of the dream-character "You," with no real way to attach full meaning or control that can only be had when all of you is present. Now, I'm not saying that this exploration won't be most excellent as is, but it would be so much more excellent with the entirety of you in the game.

I guess what I'm saying here is that episodic memories do not matter, period. If you lack access to memory, then the episodic memories you are given by your dreaming mind can come from whenever or wherever they want to come, and the memories will likely be wrong (and you will not be able to notice, or if you do notice, you will be mystified as to their incorrectness). If you have access to memory, the episodic memories still don't matter, because, well, now you know your history with the accuracy of your waking-life consciousness and need no specific episodic memories to verify your state.

tl;dr: It isn't that you lack some episodic memory when memory is not accessed, you lack all episodic memory, and are just given stuff called "memories" by your dreaming mind to fulfill your needs... and that stuff does not represent accessing waking memory, or rather, accessing memory in a waking-life manner, at all. And, when you do have access to memory, all episodic memory is as available as it can be in waking life, and it still will not matter, because episodic memory is just a secondary tool used in assembling the overall "You" in the dream. Because of all that, you will not gain full awareness without access to memory in a waking-life global manner.

Now, this does not mean that the "dreaming you" cannot be fully aware that he is dreaming, and know that the world around him is the product of thought. And of course you can certainly have wonderful adventures based solely on this awareness -- LD's are certainly possible, and enjoyed all the time by all of us, without access to memory. I agree with all of that, and wholeheartedly endorse grabbing whatever you can. But the adventures only get better -- and the lucidity gets dramatically better -- when all of "You" joins the party and lends real definition and potential to your presence in the dream.

I hope that made some sense, Sivason; if not, give me some shit, and I will try again...I have a feeling I may have overstated my case to the point of contradictive babbling, especially because I also have a feeling we are both walking in the same direction, but on different paths separated by a thin but tall hedge.

If I may politely intrude!

Originally Posted by Sageous

I hope that made some sense, Sivason; if not, give me some shit, and I will try again...I have a feeling I may have overstated my case to the point of contradictive babbling, especially because I also have a feeling we are both walking in the same direction, but on different paths separated by a thin but tall hedge.

I don't think ur being contradictive at all.

And maybe I can offer a piece of the puzzle that helps clear up some of edges of that hedge you speak of.

For example. What does it do to the dream itself when it is perfectly functioning in an awareness where it makes sense that the body is sleeping in 1989. I reckon it changes things. Especially if you consider yourself a DC that is playing a part of the dream. Even if you whole-heartedly believed that you are in 1989. When that belief is shattered I reckon this can have a huge impact on you at the time.

This impact is probably the surge of lucidity that you are talking about Sageous.

But it may not be possible to have it on-demand. I believe you will need to create a diversion to implement it at first.