Purpose of Lucid Dreaming

[Philosopher8659]

The human mind has a well defined job to perform. Lucid Dreaming has a role to play in that job. To believe that Lucid Dreaming is for any other purpose is counter productive to achieving the capability of performing its work. Those who display interest in the state for any other reason than to attain to the full functionality of the human mind, are frankly, uninteresting.

[horsey101]

I got into LDing because I wanted to see what my DCs and dreams were really like to hopefully better understand my subconscious. But I would be lying if I didn't admit that flying and dream sex were motivators for me too.

[Philosopher8659]

The majority are easily amused. However, I would think that the desire to "better understand my subconscious" implies 1) a self-referential fallacy 2) knowledge of the unknowable--for to be conscious of the subconsious is quite a nice little contradiction in terms. I would imagine that there is also a prior assumption, that you know what "understanding" is. If you did, I don't think you would be making elementary mistakes in reasoning.

[Sam1r]

Hey, I agree with Philosopher... Less than a year ago,I didn't think it was possible to control dreams. (Just as many people had)I once had a Lucid Dream when I was young... I then found out about Lucid Dreaming in a book..."How to get high:Without the use of drugs." haha Lucid Dreaming is awesome,its a part of my life that is yet to be fully explored.. Sam

[horsey101]

The majority are easily amused. However, I would think that the desire to "better understand my subconscious" implies 1) a self-referential fallacy 2) knowledge of the unknowable--for to be conscious of the subconsious is quite a nice little contradiction in terms. I would imagine that there is also a prior assumption, that you know what "understanding" is. If you did, I don't think you would be making elementary mistakes in reasoning. I suppose I stated that incorrectly, you are correct in that you can't "understand" your subconscious, but I was hoping to better understand why I dream certain things or fell certain ways about thing in real life that I can't fully explain. I was hoping the alternate state of a lucid dream might better help me interpret some of my conscious thoughts and actions.

[Clyde Machine]

The human mind has a well defined job to perform. Lucid Dreaming has a role to play in that job. To believe that Lucid Dreaming is for any other purpose is counter productive to achieving the capability of performing its work. Those who display interest in the state for any other reason than to attain to the full functionality of the human mind, are frankly, uninteresting. A well defined job to perform. Since I'd like to understand your stance better (assuming there is more to your sharing of this information than the desire to convince people to re-evaluate their reasons for lucid dreaming), may I ask what you believe that job is, and how lucid dreaming fits into that job?

[Hukif]

Yeah, what Clyde Machine said.... I don't get what that job is, really <.<

[BigFan]

I have to agree with the Clyde and Walms. What is the purpose of LDing in terms of your mind? My purpose to LD is to experience sensations and things that are deemed impossible IRL(flying, etc....). However, I also plan to find out more about myself, possibly my desires, weaknesses, etc.... and try to test the capabilites of my mind with rendering different scenes, vividness, etc.... I do have to agree with you that there are some things that I won't do in an LD basically because I can do them IRL and it's what I would rather do

[Philosopher8659]

One can divide a living organism by its environmental acquisition systems--those systems of the organism which must acquire something from the environment, process that which it has acquired and produce that which maintains and promotes the life of the organism. -- 1) the respiratory-system, 2) the digestive-system 3) the ocular-system 4) the vestibular-system, 5) the manipulative-system. 6) the procreative-system 7) for want of better words, the human mind--judgmental systrem. Each and every environmental acquisition system of the human body is, to quote "so that we may have life and have it more abundantly". Some philosophers understood very well, and promoted the tool used by the human mind, language, logic, grammar. Take a well known puzzle, the Delian problem--It would not have been given if it did not have a solution. Granted it took me ten years to solve it, but I eventually understood. Or, again, the sealing of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, not sealed by any magic, but simply by exercising grammatical principles. At the present time in history, man's linguistic ability is very primitive. As has been observed by many, the progress of man is linked to his linguistic understanding. But common to all of man's environmental acquisition systems, their failure lead in some respect to the death of the individual. During the evolution of a system, death is a given, for until it evolves to a certain level of functionality, it cannot possibly do its job. Is a person aware who does not even know what their own function is in relation to their own body? How is it, that with all our educational institutions one cannot even answer the question, what am I? If Lucid dreaming could accomplish no more than mental masturbation, it had no value, if, on the other hand during its use one's psychology was developed it had great value. How one uses it, just like any tool, determines what one can do with it.

[Clyde Machine]

One can divide a living organism by its environmental acquisition systems--those systems of the organism which must acquire something from the environment, process that which it has acquired and produce that which maintains and promotes the life of the organism. -- 1) the respiratory-system, 2) the digestive-system 3) the ocular-system 4) the vestibular-system, 5) the manipulative-system. 6) the procreative-system 7) for want of better words, the human mind--judgmental systrem. Each and every environmental acquisition system of the human body is, to quote "so that we may have life and have it more abundantly". Some philosophers understood very well, and promoted the tool used by the human mind, language, logic, grammar. Take a well known puzzle, the Delian problem--It would not have been given if it did not have a solution. Granted it took me ten years to solve it, but I eventually understood. Or, again, the sealing of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, not sealed by any magic, but simply by exercising grammatical principles. At the present time in history, man's linguistic ability is very primitive. As has been observed by many, the progress of man is linked to his linguistic understanding. But common to all of man's environmental acquisition systems, their failure lead in some respect to the death of the individual. During the evolution of a system, death is a given, for until it evolves to a certain level of functionality, it cannot possibly do its job. Is a person aware who does not even know what their own function is in relation to their own body? How is it, that with all our educational institutions one cannot even answer the question, what am I? To put it frankly, I can easily - just as everyone else from this thread can - answer that question just fine. I asked you about what you believed our mind's function/job is so I could better understand what you were getting at, not because I/we are uneducated on the matter. (Although Walms does stand to gain some knowledge from your post there, respectfully. ) If Lucid dreaming could accomplish no more than mental masturbation, it had no value, if, on the other hand during its use one's psychology was developed it had great value. How one uses it, just like any tool, determines what one can do with it. So the purpose of lucid dreaming is what you make it out to be, since it can provide us with far more than simple "mental masturbation". I agree with that. However, your original statement of oneironauts (current or prospective) being "uninteresting" if they seek anything less than "full functionality of the human mind" with lucid dreaming means that it should only be used to its fullest extent. I use it myself to a very full extent when I can, but not everyone has the same aims with it. Suppose someone just wants to use it every now and then to have a little nonsensical fun? Nothing wrong with that, is there?

[Silence]

One can divide a living organism by its environmental acquisition systems--those systems of the organism which must acquire something from the environment, process that which it has acquired and produce that which maintains and promotes the life of the organism. -- 1) the respiratory-system, 2) the digestive-system 3) the ocular-system 4) the vestibular-system, 5) the manipulative-system. 6) the procreative-system 7) for want of better words, the human mind--judgmental systrem. Each and every environmental acquisition system of the human body is, to quote "so that we may have life and have it more abundantly". Some philosophers understood very well, and promoted the tool used by the human mind, language, logic, grammar. Take a well known puzzle, the Delian problem--It would not have been given if it did not have a solution. Granted it took me ten years to solve it, but I eventually understood. Or, again, the sealing of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, not sealed by any magic, but simply by exercising grammatical principles. At the present time in history, man's linguistic ability is very primitive. As has been observed by many, the progress of man is linked to his linguistic understanding. But common to all of man's environmental acquisition systems, their failure lead in some respect to the death of the individual. During the evolution of a system, death is a given, for until it evolves to a certain level of functionality, it cannot possibly do its job. Is a person aware who does not even know what their own function is in relation to their own body? How is it, that with all our educational institutions one cannot even answer the question, what am I? If Lucid dreaming could accomplish no more than mental masturbation, it had no value, if, on the other hand during its use one's psychology was developed it had great value. How one uses it, just like any tool, determines what one can do with it. Ok first off... You should write a book in a way i think your brilliant... in another way... completely ignorant. I'm a teen calling you ignorant.. its a bit cocky my bad. But have you ever thought that having lucid dreams is a way to educate you. Like nightmares are a way to punish you. Well if you look at it the way i look at it our mind has lucid dreams to make us feel more confident and learn more about ourselves. Here for example dream sex. Most of you shallow people out there who want to LD for dream sex is because you dont have to confidence to go after it in the real world. Dream sex would be a ... more of a cure for depression because you aren't getting to fullfill your need in real life. Having dream sex could give you the confidence to at least try to move on and get a mate. It could also teach you thinks about yourself. I at heart am an adventurous person. I like dreaming of doing all sorts of traveling. I have had only one lucid dream... I breathed fire to melt snow.. Maybe my mind wanted to know what it was like to breath fire and maybe I always wanted to breathe fire and its the satisfying of my fantasies. Making me feel better about myself and making me have confidence. I may seem completely ignorant here but hey im a kid and I have my ideas. Sorry for the grammatical errors and spelling errors. this is how i feel about this though

[Oneironaut Zero]

Those who display interest in the state for any other reason than to attain to the full functionality of the human mind, are frankly, uninteresting. Frankly, I find those who attempt to dress their own ideas under the guise of objectivity - especially while needlessly insulting other schools of thought - interesting...but not in a good way. The majority are easily amused. You say that as if your muses are of some objectively higher purpose/quality/importance than anyone else's. Being "hard to please" is not inherently a good thing. One can divide a living organism by its environmental acquisition systems--those systems of the organism which must acquire something from the environment, process that which it has acquired and produce that which maintains and promotes the life of the organism. -- This is what I find boring - the notion that humans should reduce their self-image to that of machines - the idea that "you must do this with your life" or "unless you utilize your mind in this way, you're going against what 'nature' intended you to do." To me, that is like saying "unless you are active, and keep yourself in peak, physical condition, you are misusing your time in your body." I think a part of what makes us great is because we don't have to follow a certain "school of thought" (which is all that idea really is) on how to utilize our time and our bodies. Our lives are our own, and what we take joy in (and how we use our bodies) is really of no more or less "value" than anyone else. Value, as I'm sure you know, is subjective. Knowing more about the physiology of your mind does not make your time with it any more "valuable" than anyone else's time with their own. Sure, you may think it is, but (while understandable) it's just bias. If Lucid dreaming could accomplish no more than mental masturbation, it had no value, if, on the other hand during its use one's psychology was developed it had great value. How one uses it, just like any tool, determines what one can do with it. Value to whom? If I was someone who wasn't interested in the inner-workings of my own mind, and was more interested in the aesthetics of lucid dreaming, my interest is of less 'value' than yours? How do you figure that? Sure, what you get out of the experience is going to be different, but I'd like to hear more about how you think it would be objectively 'better', or 'more valuable' to anyone but yourself. (Hadn't had time to read the whole thread yet, so I'm sorry if I'm rehashing on anything that's already been discussed or cleared up.)

[Philosopher8659]

Human biology is sometimes self correcting, like in my case. Eventualy my ears got too big to be covered by my mouth.

[Sesquipedalian]

I must say that there are some other uses for LD's than full neural potential. One must remember that the brain dreams almost every time (or most of the time) it loses contact with the senses. The brain craves stimulation, and it will make up its own if need be. LD's are merely the conscious mind being aware of and maybe interacting with the dream. The value is up to the individual who has discovered lucid dreaming, and to none other. Why does it have to be all business, anyway? Why does everything have to have a task and perform it constantly? With all the crap that occurs in one's life, having time to step away from reality and have some fun would be welcome. There doesn't have to be a reason. What about all the people that are oblivious to this? Are they idiots for not trying to reach their full mental potential? No! The human mind is very complex; we have never truly understood it, and may never will. Yet a reason has to be tacked on and a purpose found for everything it does? I say that we should be happy with what we have found, and have some fun with it. Where else can you break the laws of physics like it's nothing? Like I said before, sometimes a person just has to have some fun away from reality. The world is cruel, and humans have the ability to take a break from it and do whatever they please. I'm all for efficiency, but taking a business approach to this is like the industrial revolution vs. today for the workers. 14 hour days may produce a lot, but a person can only be pushed so far before they crack. People need a repose of some kind for almost everything. For example, a person might like a particular food, but after eating only that for a while, they get burned out and start to dislike it. Moderation is key.

[horsey101]

Subconscious- existing in the mind but not immediately available to consciousness Emphasis on "immediately available." There are fields of science devoted to better understanding the subconscious, and dream interpretation is a method used for such a purpose. Therefore, I did not commit any logical fallacies nor use the term "understand" incorrectly, even though I conceded the point to you previously. Regardless, it's only your opinion that lucid dreaming need serve some greater purpose. It's perfectly acceptable to lucid dream for whatever reason you wish. I find it presumptuous on your part to try to dictate what the purpose of lucid dreaming is, considering its highly personal nature. It's the equivalent of me trying to tell you what the correct religion to believe in is. It's fine to have your opinion on lucid dreaming, but I find it offensive when you criticize those who disagree with you and I don't feel that that sort of attitude is conducive to a debate.

[Clyde Machine]

Regardless, it's only your opinion that lucid dreaming need serve some greater purpose. It's perfectly acceptable to lucid dream for whatever reason you wish. I find it presumptuous on your part to try to dictate what the purpose of lucid dreaming is, considering its highly personal nature. It's the equivalent of me trying to tell you what the correct religion to believe in is. It's fine to have your opinion on lucid dreaming, but I find it offensive when you criticize those who disagree with you and I don't feel that that sort of attitude is conducive to a debate. An excellently-worded summary of a few of my leftover thoughts from my earlier post. While it's alright to speculate and discuss, to blatantly state and dictate is to engage in one-sided speech, which, no matter how intelligently worded, has the potential to be incorrect. In this case, I'm afraid Philosopher is incorrect in that respect.

[Philosopher8659]

Well, I think my problem is that I am from a much older school, one in which relation to self is altogether inadmissable. Thus, I tend to believe that that the digestive system has a function, and that the function of the stomach resides in the same class. The same with the ocular system, the eye, being a part of it can not have any other function outside the class of the whole. However, if any of you thinkers can convince me that A does not equal A, I do have rather large ears.

[Kahiko]

Lucid dreaming is there to find answers on question's that go beyond waking life

[Hukif]

Wait, from what I read in your posts, the job of the mind is to help have a better life, so then, how does getting some sort of satisfaction/enterteinament = having a worse life? Especially if that may help with stress and live happier?

[Philosopher8659]

If that is what you got out of my post, perhaps you should think about it a bit more. I have posted several audio books and ebooks for free on the internet archive of the works of Plato, I found that in making them, the years spent in study, helped me out a great deal, andd hopefully they will continue to do so. Currently I am trying to develop the forgotten Two-Element metaphysics his work is based on.

[Man of Shred]

I follow my own specific purpose for lucid dreaming Thank you very much. My own rules about lucid dreaming - My dreams are as real as the waking world. - You are the final authority on the purpose, meaning, and interpretation of your own dream. Don't bother arguing with me... I won't be posting on this thread again.

[Clyde Machine]

EDIT: Good luck on those works, Philosopher, I'd be interested in hearing a bit more about such a subject. In response to Philosopher's earlier post: Hah, a rather humorous ending to that post! However, we aren't trying to convince you that A doesn't equal A, we're merely explaining that you telling us that it's "uninteresting" to do anything with lucid dreaming other than what the mind is meant for (which appears to be usage to its fullest extent) is expressing the idea that lucid dreaming shouldn't be allowed for those who want to (or only have time/available effort to) have simple pleasures like dream sex or impossible activities. I disagree with that. Just because lucid dreaming CAN accommodate a person to fully experience what their mind can do doesn't mean that's what it should ONLY be used for. Just because your mind CAN process hundreds or thousands of words per minute doesn't mean it should ONLY be used for processing that much thought - you'd be fatigued and need a nap by noon! One other thing: you're discussing the function of organs in relation to their corresponding systems. Lucid dreaming is a function/phenomenon, not an organ, therefore can have many uses, where such things as a person's stomach has one inherent use, the eyes having one inherent use, etc. (Obviously not all organs only have one specific use, but you see where the incomparable elements lie.)

[Philosopher8659]

I do not recall saying what one can or cannot do it it. Perhaps your reading too much into what I did say. A long time ago, I too once believed that I was working with my own mind--but then I learned how to ask questions and get answers. Most of all I was always steared onto a particular path. For example: Once in a while I would have a problem with telephone wires in dreams--they blocked my way. I kept trying to climb over them, but no matter how many I climbed over, there were more. Then, I asked myself, what are telephone lines? Well, in the simple they are lines of communication. The next time I encountered them in the lucid dreamstate I decided to act a bit more rationally, follow the lines--see where they led, In effect, I decided to follow the lines of communication. In so doing, I came to understand the message. I do know this, for I have done it. You can ask questions and get answers--answers one could not possibly guess at. Once I asked about an author I had never met. I got very upset with the whole thing as the answer was in visual metaphor--easy to understand, but well, being human and not understanding I wanted a reply in simple English. Eventually I learned it was all about the functioning of the human mind--it is still evolving--still primitive. But, commensurate with its development is the use of language which has a biological basis--people cannot overcome their genetics. Telepathy is a more advanced form of communication, however, one cannot hope to progress along those lines without mastering the concepts of language itself. Our written and spoken languages are part of what we have to master before we learn the fundamentals of telepathy. We cannot hope to process telepathic data if we cannot process our own. Thus, mysticism and fantasy are stages of man, but not where we are going.

[Hukif]

Well, I got it from this part in your post: Each and every environmental acquisition system of the human body is, to quote "so that we may have life and have it more abundantly". I will ask again then, what is the job of the human mind?

[Clyde Machine]

Well, I got it from this part in your post: Each and every environmental acquisition system of the human body is, to quote "so that we may have life and have it more abundantly". I will ask again then, what is the job of the human mind? I'm in agreement with Walms, I don't feel I've had that question completely satisfied from your posts following our prompting of that question.