An Unpopular Opinion on the Lucid Dreaming Competition.

**Mzzkc** · 08-24-2015 10:23 PM

Editor's note: Got ninja'd. This post is responding to post #49.

Was hoping for a slightly higher level of discourse. Ah well.

I'll break down what's happened for those following along at home:

I initiated the parlay with a classic equivalence argument.

Vince accepted the discussion and offered a number of tenuous counterpoints which skirted around the initial problem.

I followed through with an attempt to refocus on the initial question.

Ginsan succinctly responds to the initial question. (you da real MVP)

Vince dismisses my followup in its entirety--which is actually wholly consistent with his presented philosophy, and likely the best play given the baits and traps I set in my followup post. (so props on that, but assuming I've gone into this discussion not understanding your viewpoint or having thoroughly researched Buddhism is a bit naive, no?)

They pat eachother on the back.

And now you're caught up!

Let's rewind real quick to Ginsan's response:

"And who's to say a life continuously filled with such moments is any less fulfilling than a life without them?" I think that this is your main point, am I right?

This is indeed the essence of the initial question.

Ofcourse a life continuously filled with such moments is great, it's better than the lives of the vast majority of people.

Note the concession of merit. At this point, at least two parties agree that the initial proposition of equivalence is theoretically valid.

Here's the caveat:

But if you are depending on things like music, friendship, health, sex, taking a walk while holding hands with your lover, you are in trouble. Because the moment those things are taken away from you, or that possibility exists, you are threatened. Every time the things that you enjoy are taken away from you, you become less happy. When a friend dies, when you get ill, when a relationship falls apart, or even when any of these things are about to happen, you are grieved, you become frustrated and you lose your Peace of Mind. But this is not necessary, you can have a Peace of Mind, while enjoying these things, but you do not have to become attached to them.

Note that this caveat only works under the assumption that it is impossible to maintain peace of mind through hardships, loss, and grief if attachments are formed. Interestingly, a counterexample to the above caveat is illustrated below.

It does not have to disturb your Peace of Mind when you lose something that makes you happy. You only need to observe your mind and see for yourself that these pleasures are transient and depending on them will inevitably cause you unhappiness.

It is not difficult to imagine a life filled with attachments, egoistic pursuits, desires, chaos, and other intensely human experiences that is grounded by the very notion presented above. By simply accepting and embracing the meaningless nature of everything, one is free to do as one likes, accepting things as they come elegantly and without fanfare.

From that perspective, a life void of attachment is by definition the limited one.

But what do I know? I'm just a dumb kid of indeterminate gender mucking around on the Internet during their day off. =P

**Ginsan** · 08-24-2015 10:38 PM

"From that perspective, a life void of attachment is by definition the limited one." What does this mean? I don't understand. In my experience, a moment void of attachment is a moment of freedom, of peace of mind. Is a life without suffering a meaningless one? By accepting the meaningless nature of everything, you do not stop caring about your friends, you accept that you will not remain friends forever, but you can still appreciate their company. Accepting death doesn't make you stop caring about life. It just undermines the possibility of you feeling horrible when you are close to dying. Attachment does not equate enjoyment, and lack of attachment does not equate a lack of enjoyment. You can walk through a garden with your beloved while holding his or her hand every single day for 50 years, and without diminishing the beauty of those moments, you can accept the fact that things may one day seperate you. It seems that this is the core of our disagreement. I'll state it again: A lack of attachment is not the same as a lack of enjoyment.

edit: Vince, I'll think about post #50

**Mzzkc** · 08-24-2015 10:50 PM

From my experience, realizing that all things lack intrinsic meaning and that--at the same time--nothing can be known is freedom in its purest form.

I guess you could call me something of a hedonistic nihilist, if that helps frame things better. =)

**Ginsan** · 08-24-2015 11:04 PM

I don't know if things lack intrinsic meaning, they are just transitory. Maybe there is no "objective universal" meaning, but to me personally, things can have "meaning", and the fact that they are transitory does not diminish this meaning. "nothing can be known" .... I won't get into that. If I get interested in that, I can just read philosophy, talking to some random person on the internet won't get me anywhere.

**Sensei** · 08-24-2015 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

From my experience, realizing that... nothing can be known

I have always thought it funny when people said things like this because it is like one of my favorite Jedi says "Only Sith deal in absolutes." It is something that is a contradiction of itself and thus cannot be true (unless said by a Sith). Yet again, not contributing, pointing out things that stick out to me that I find amusing. Like someone that calls himself a nihilist, or that calls himself a nihilist and something else. A nihilist is someone that doesn't believe in anything, even the concept of nihilism, so another concept (like hedonism) would also fit in that category.

Not trying to be rude, just letting you know that I am still watching you guys and your convo.

**Ginsan** · 08-24-2015 11:06 PM

Sensei, are those your assumptions about what you have arbitrarily decided what nihilism means, or have you actually gone deep into philosophy to find out the descriptions and implications and different forms of nihilism?

**Samael** · 08-24-2015 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by VinceField

while others express a misunderstanding of what I have said.

If this is directed at me, I'd like to point out that I used Star Wars to express the difference between our Buddhist and Wiccan philosophies. That doesn't mean I don't understand what you said.

One point of view states that your inner life must take priority over your outer life, because if your inner self is at peace, then you can be at peace regardless of what is happening in your outer life.

The other point of view states that your inner life and your outer life must be in balance, because each one informs the other, and you cannot create the outcome you desire without bringing both forces into play.

Regarding embracing and integrating "brokenness," recognizing and accepting one's harmful tendencies is the first step towards positive and beneficial change. But I believe it is a mistake to leave this "brokenness" as it is when it can be eradicated or transformed into something better, something more beneficial to oneself and others, something that results in pure and wholesome mind states rather than harmful ones.

I find the idea of integrating one's shadow self a useful metaphor, because it involves accepting myself as I am. I do not reject the pieces of myself that lean towards violence, fear, perfectionism, because each of those parts of myself can be bent towards my aims. With ferocity comes the ability to take action, with fear comes the ability to rise above it, with perfectionism comes a tendency towards thoughtfulness. These things must be in balance, because in order to move forward, I must not be conflicted, I must have a clear goal. But I do not seek peace, I seek to create.

Edit (ninja'd):

Originally Posted by Sensei

I have always thought it funny when people said things like this because it is like one of my favorite Jedi says "Only Sith deal in absolutes." It is something that is a contradiction of itself and thus cannot be true (unless said by a Sith).

I love this quote and its inherent contradiction. I tend to twist the phrase to say that "I don't deal in absolutes," although of course that's an oversimplification...

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

From my experience, realizing that all things lack intrinsic meaning and that--at the same time--nothing can be known is freedom in its purest form.

I tend to believe that things have the meaning we assign to them. That does not make the thing's meaning any less true or real to me, but it also takes into account the vast differences in the way that each human being sees the world.

**Sensei** · 08-24-2015 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Ginsan

Sensei, are those your assumptions about what you have arbitrarily decided what nihilism means, or have you actually gone deep into philosophy to find out the descriptions and implications and different forms of nihilism?

nihilism
Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated.

hedonism
a person who believes that the pursuit of pleasure is the most important thing in life

This is the definition on nihilism and hedonism (I looked them up for you), if he meant something different, he should have used different words, because words are the way I communicate.

an agreed upon medium to express ideas.

**Ginsan** · 08-24-2015 11:14 PM

Thanks for pointing them out

I confess that I assumed you didn't know what nihilism was, actualy I didn't know what it was. I look extremely silly now xD

**Samael** · 08-24-2015 11:19 PM

@ #58 & #59

I do find that dictionary definitions aren't usually sufficient for discussions like this. When someone says "I am X," they don't usually 100% match dictionary definition #1. Better to wait so they can clarify their answer...

**Ginsan** · 08-24-2015 11:24 PM

Samael that may be true, but the definitions of hedonism and nihilism are not really relevant to this discussion. They were more like side notes.

**Mzzkc** · 08-24-2015 11:34 PM

I step away for a moment, and come back to such deliciousness.

Sensei: understanding, accepting, and finding the contradiction amusing is sorta the whole point. XP

Also, hedonism and nihilism are by no means incompatible philosophies. Nihilism, in its various forms, doesn't have to be all doom and gloom, as most folks assume. Not every practicing nihilist has to go the route of Heisman, you know. Every other path is as equally valid as it is meaningless, however you wish to interpret that.

Ginsan: Ascribe meaning as you please, but know that doing so may bring about unwholesome thoughts. =)

**Ginsan** · 08-24-2015 11:39 PM

"but know that doing so may bring about unwholesome thoughts." My humor detector is going off, calming down my bullshit detector

**Mzzkc** · 08-24-2015 11:42 PM

Too obvious? XD

**Ginsan** · 08-24-2015 11:45 PM

Well, I've always had an interest in seeking out the funny and silly bits of life, so I love comedy. I've also recently been watching Fawlty Towers and Monty Python's Flying circus, the masters of seeking out the funny and silly bits of life. This is not to say that I "knew", because I'm a comedy genius, it wasn't too hard to detect the humor in your post

**tropicalbreeze** · 08-26-2015 05:49 AM

Who decides who wins the competition?

**Ginsan** · 08-26-2015 03:07 PM

The points.

**JadeGreen** · 08-26-2015 04:10 PM

Wow... dang. This thread has gone on and on without me. Sorry, I don't really have anything else to contribute to the discussion. Just noting that I'm still here.

**Ginsan** · 08-26-2015 04:37 PM

That's alright

You indirectly and unwillingly caused us to have a very intellectually AND emotionally provoking discussion ^^

**Sensei** · 08-26-2015 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ginsan

That's alright

You indirectly and unwillingly caused us to have a very intellectually AND emotionally provoking discussion ^^

Yet, according to lots of people's belief, a meaningless discussion.

For me, it is just for fun to jump in convos like this and point out things that make me happy. haha.

**tropicalbreeze** · 08-26-2015 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Ginsan

The points.

I've never met this user. May you introduce me to this person.

**Sensei** · 08-27-2015 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by tropicalbreeze

I've never met this user. May you introduce me to this person.

Why are you being so weird about this? Points is how many (if not most) competitions are decided.

**Mzzkc** · 08-27-2015 04:12 AM

tropicalbreeze: you almost made me swallow my gum and die from laughter XD

**tropicalbreeze** · 08-27-2015 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by Sensei

Why are you being so weird about this?

Points is how many (if not most) competitions are decided.

But isn't there someone who makes the rules and decides how many points a person gets?

**FryingMan** · 08-27-2015 01:34 PM

Apparently the second page took a dramatic turn from the OP, I guess I'm glad I skipped it.

In my first year, the times of the competition gave me incredible boosts to my LD frequency rate while it was running. This happens to many people who participate, as is plain to see from the results.

I see the competitions as a great way for new LDers to mix with the veterans, make new friends, and really push oneself to improve.