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    Thread: Dreaming Mask Using Proven Brain Stimulation?

    1. #1
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      Dreaming Mask Using Proven Brain Stimulation?

      I've always wanted a lucid dreaming mask of some sort like the Remee or NovaDreamer, but I could never justify pulling the trigger. I knew it would probably help but I didn't think it would help much. I found this through a Facebook ad. It's called the Lucid Dreamer. It doesn't use flashing LEDs against your eyes, but detects when your REM stage starts and then applies stimulation to the part of the brain associated with awareness in dreams. (Link to their website below)

      13738265_1066709983424010_8585514562868211301_o.jpg

      This is similar to an idea I had come up with when I was a child, something that stimulates the part of your brain associated with lucid dreaming while you're in the dream, so I am very excited for this thing to launch! They're using the same methods and techniques as Ursula Voss did in a 2014 study which yielded a 77% success rate.

      I got in contact with the creators and asked if they were assuming the same success rate with this product. They said,

      "Yes we expect the success rate to be very similar since we use the exact same method of stimulation. In the Voss study, they had research assistants sitting next to the bed who judged the onset of a dream by looking at the eye movements. We use dream (REM) onset detection using EEG (a measure of brain activity). This is the most accurate way of automatic REM detection, with an accuracy percentage of 85%. So our success rate may be a bit lower than 77%, because the accuracy of the REM state is not 100%. Our personal experience is that if you stimulate a couple of times in a night, you are bound to induce a lucid dream at least once."

      So essentially, in their personal experience they were pretty much guaranteed at least one lucid dream if they set the Lucid Dreamer to stimulate a few times during the night.

      I am very okay with those odds.

      I'm going to try and get my hands on one and do a video review for you guys as soon as they get funded on Kickstarter and make them. Does this sound like a promising concept to you guys??

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      I don't see how the device would help people learn that they are dreaming. Sure, it might make people more conscious during their dreams, but how would it trigger their memory of dreams? Being conscious during a dream doesn't automatically make people remember they are dreaming.

      They even describe WBTB as being not very reliable, even though the device is attempting to induce lucidity in the exact same way as WBTB does.

      I would steer clear.
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      Very interesting! I wonder how many channels of EEG they are using? It looks like maybe only one channel for the EEG (a pair of electrodes) and a pair for the tACS. That might prove problemmatic from the point of reliably detecting REM, but I see thay also add accelerometers and gyrometer. I've spent some time using the Zeo sleepmask, which is a single channel EEG, and it is far from perfect at reliably detecting REM.
      It'll be interesting to see how it does on Kickstarter.

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      Hey Dolphin, why so negative? The tACS technique is well known to have good results in inducing lucid dreams. It doesn't teach you, it makes you aware when dreaming. It's a little bit like the effect Galantamine has, but different obviously. There are two issues I see with it, one is reliably detecting the REM period, and the other is that you have to learn to ground yourself in the LD when induced, so it isn't always going to wake you up, but that shouldn't be too difficult.

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      I mean, obviously this isn't going to suddenly make anyone a master of lucid dreaming. Improving dream recall is the responsibility of the dreamer. This just claims to help enable the dreamer to realize they're dreaming while in the dream.

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      Quote Originally Posted by anti_nation View Post
      Does this sound like a promising concept to you guys??
      A quick and honest answer - No.

      Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
      I would steer clear.
      +1.

      Personally when you see titles like 'Most advanced lucid dreaming device' then this sets a red flag for me. Reminds me of Mr Doovdé.

      Quote Originally Posted by Goldenspark View Post
      The tACS technique is well known to have good results in inducing lucid dreams. It doesn't teach you, it makes you aware when dreaming. It's a little bit like the effect Galantamine has, but different obviously.
      Voss's study is the only one I have seen which has been questioned by some. I haven't come across any other reports, only claims.
      Galantamine has had a much wider usage in lucid dreaming circles. There are more reports. See Yuschak, LaBerge, etc. Even with a higher success rate it is not infallable. You need to treat it (galantamine) with respest, even so it is safer and more reliable than any tACS system to date.

      Quote Originally Posted by Goldenspark View Post
      There are two issues I see with it...
      Again - safety is one of the the main issues. Voss conducted tests in a laboratory, under laboratory conditions, with proper technicians, support and equipment.
      Home use will get different results, most likely undesirable and less accurate. Even placebo has to be ruled out.

      If it (tACS) is the dogs boll*cks, like it is often claimed by some companies then why isn't LaBerge doing it I often ask myself?
      Last edited by Highlander; 09-10-2016 at 09:46 PM. Reason: grammar
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      Hmmm, I have no problem with the skepticism. That's easy. But the Zeo headband was not that far off being an effective detector of REM, it just lacked a good way of giving the subject some awareness. If tACS does that in a very subtle way, ie not just waking the subject up, then it has some promise as a method. Whether they implement it effectively its quite another story if course....
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      ^Don't get me wrong, *I'm all for research, preferably in a lab setting which is capable of being repeated elsewhere, by others. Hopefully more tACS results can be safely and accurately studied, compared and recorded in future, preferably by the scientific community or people genuinely interested in neuroscience and lucid dreaming, rather than individuals interested only in the money side first.
      It seems that some companies are attempting to jump into the void (or mist, ha, ha) left by LaBerge and sell the latest fad by citing 'science' and the latest research by others, without providing any of their own to their potential customer to back their product up.
      Finally the awareness/induction(?) thing has always been an issue - this comes with experience and dedication which no device can give in the short run.

      *(Disclaimer: Preferably on humans, rather than animals).
      Last edited by Highlander; 09-10-2016 at 11:58 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Highlander View Post
      ^Don't get me wrong, *I'm all for research, preferably in a lab setting which is capable of being repeated elsewhere, by others. Hopefully more tACS results can be safely and accurately studied...
      On the topic of safety, I grabbed this from their FAQ section on the site-

      "The Lucid Dreamer uses a relatively low intensity of stimulation for relatively short durations, compared with the intensities and durations that are used in published scientific studies. More specifically, the Lucid Dreamer has hardcoded limits in terms of current (max 20µA/cm2) and voltage (max 2,5 Volt).

      In order to keep the electrical current at a constant level, the voltage is varied, depending on the constantly measured impedance level. If the impedance exceeds 10 kΩ, stimulation is automatically terminated. Finally, the duration of stimulation is limited to 5 continuous minutes and a total of 20 minutes per night. All these parameters fall well below the common safety limits of electrical stimulation of the brain."

      I love the debating, guys. I like hearing everyone's opinion, especially if it's different from mine.
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      Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
      I don't see how the device would help people learn that they are dreaming. Sure, it might make people more conscious during their dreams, but how would it trigger their memory of dreams? Being conscious during a dream doesn't automatically make people remember they are dreaming.
      Could the device be useful for more advanced lucid dreamers like us? It is much easier for us to trigger the memory that we're dreaming.
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    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by anti_nation View Post
      On the topic of safety, I grabbed this from their FAQ section on the site-

      "...
      In order to keep the electrical current at a constant level, the voltage is varied, depending on the constantly measured impedance level. If the impedance exceeds 10 kΩ, stimulation is automatically terminated. Finally, the duration of stimulation is limited to 5 continuous minutes and a total of 20 minutes per night. All these parameters fall well below the common safety limits of electrical stimulation of the brain."
      Hopefully the reverse is true, like when your scalp sweats and the skin impedence will drop, therefore increasing current flow.

      I took a very quick gander at the website mentioned in the OP. Regarding the safety aspect the makers of the luciddreamer claim 100%. "This method implements mild electrical stimulation to the head in a way proven to be 100% safe. [2]"

      Webpage snapshot.jpg

      The report cited is [2] Safety, sensations and secondary induced effects of transcranial electric stimulation; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=25922128

      All I can find on the abstract at the end of paragraph 3 is "Finally and most important no adverse events were reported."[2]
      I don't think this warrants the claim of being "100% safe". If so, then I must be missing something? For example, what about the long term effects of tACS?

      I took a quick look at the focus v2 site which again uses tACS. The team behind the original Focus release seem to have more of a background with tDCS which helps. Even so I don't see really any end user reviews in regard to tACS and lucid dreaming with any of the devices out there. It seems a bit of an expensive gamble to take as these machines aint cheap, and you might not get the results you are anticipating, plus there may be long-term side effects?
      The big cop-out is that FDA approval is not needed as these products are not medical devices.


      In regard to the Luciddreamer: Kickstarter is a bit of a risk too - as the people who have backed the Aurora are finding out. They have waited well over 2 years.


      Quote Originally Posted by Saizaphod View Post
      Could the device be useful for more advanced lucid dreamers like us? It is much easier for us to trigger the memory that we're dreaming.
      I don't think you would need such a device as your brain seems to be already in the habit of lucid dreaming through practice and awareness.
      Last edited by Highlander; 09-11-2016 at 11:22 AM.
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      It sounds like they are just using a current source for the stimulation, so the voltage will decrease if the skin impedance drops, e.g. due to sweat. The voltage increase is limited if the impedance rises too far (10 kohm). Nothing surprising there.
      Obviously the potential for long-term risks is there with tACS, but if it's being energised only occasionally, it is likely to be in the same category as a mobile phone. It depends how risk-averse you are.

      I for one could do with a little help to be nudged into LDs at the moment!

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      Thanks. I used the wrong constant. My bad.

      Quote Originally Posted by Goldenspark View Post
      I for one could do with a little help to be nudged into LDs at the moment!
      That might depend on how cash-averse you are. Post Brexit
      Last edited by Highlander; 09-11-2016 at 12:04 PM.
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      There are one or more threads here on DV with sincere (i.e., not commercial) LD enthusiasts trying to reproduce the Voss studies using homebrew tACS devices and failing. Eventually they experienced negative physical effects (vertigo, dizzyness) and stopped altogether.

      All circuits can fail, including those limiting current/voltage. I would be extremely hesitant to use a mass-produced (read: built in a sweatshop somewhere) device that is designed to pump electricity into my brain.

      The Voss study has issues, not the least of which is the definition of lucidity, I recall reading. Where are all the independent validations of tACS producing LDs? I don't see them anywhere.

      Show me a device with a scientific, large-population, long duration study done with proper placebo controls, double-blind, etc., with controls for prior LD experience and frequency, and then maybe I'd look at such a device. Probably the only one that's had anything approaching a "proper" level of study and adjustment is LaBerge's N2D2, but I've given up waiting for it, he's too busy putting holding retreats in Hawaii to to release it at all, apparently.

      It's not looking good for EILD devices. The last several years has proven nothing if not that bringing an EILD device to market that works is *incredibly hard*.

      For example, Aurora's iWinks is now labelled as "... the world's smartest sleep-sensing headband!" Whoopee sh!t fizz, I don't want to track my sleep, I want LDs! There is absolutely *no feedback* from the beta testers indicating LD induction.

      Luciding, tACS device provider who's been around a couple years already, is barely beyond a couple dozen early devices (are they even out yet?) They're too busy building their business strategy and dazzling investors to do serious studies and publish meaningful results.
      Last edited by FryingMan; 09-11-2016 at 06:50 PM.
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      ^^^ Best synopsis ever of the state of the art for lucid dreaming devices. You go, FM!!
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      @Frying man +1.

      Quote Originally Posted by The truth View Post

      For example, Aurora's iWink$ is now labelled as "... the world's smartest sleep-sensing headband alarm clock!"

      Łuciding, tACS bS device provider who's been around a couple years already, is barely beyond a couple dozen early devices bricks (are they even out yet?) They're too busy building their business strategy and dazzling investors suckers to do serious studies and publish meaningful results.
      Last edited by Highlander; 09-11-2016 at 08:05 PM.
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      ...and there are many other devices like this one on the way....
      ...OMG, how many people has dr Voss fooled already - and how many more to come...
      Its a whole unproven industry in its beginnings - stemming from a single misleading study...(see the next 2 posts as well)... how disappointing....
      Last edited by SearcherTMR; 09-13-2016 at 07:31 AM.
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      "...what we experience is our model of reality, not reality itself. Perception is dreaming constrained by sensory input. So it’s a constrained dream, whereas dreaming is perception free of constraint. What exactly is the difference experientially between the dream and waking state? And you see, it’s the same stuff. It’s all illusion! "Stephen LaBerge

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      Just been doing a search and found 2 more devices that I haven't seen mentionned on here yet:

      iBand+ on kickstarter - EEG monitoring, light and sound triggers, very similar to IWinks, still early enough to get in on the half price early supporter, but delivery expected July 2017 so make that 2018 at the earliest!

      Neuroon - a sleep tracker but it seems to have lucid dreaming cues as an extra. Available now.

      Anyone know anything about these two?
      Last edited by Smudgefish; 09-13-2016 at 08:17 AM.
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      ....and yet another Aurora work-alike is now coming up on Kickstarter, "iBand+". I will probably make the minimum donation because I want to be able to participate on the forums and debunk their "science." I didn't do this with the other ones and I've severely regretted not being able to participate in their forums (Aurora).

      Quote Originally Posted by Smudgefish View Post
      Just been doing a search and found 2 more devices that I haven't see mentionned on here yet:

      iBand+ on kickstarter - EEG monitoring, light and sound triggers, very similar to IWinks, still early enough to get in on the half price early supporter, but delivery expected July 2017 so make that 2018 at the earliest!
      More like 2019, if they even survive that long.
      Neuroon - a sleep tracker but it seems to have lucid dreaming cues as an extra. Available now.

      Anyone know anything about these two?
      Read the Neuroon kickstarter comments. Extremely unhappy users, citing no communication from maker. No updates from maker regarding the "LD app" supposedly available in August. Any maker with barely any positive results would be crowing to the skies about them. Silence means bad results.
      Last edited by FryingMan; 09-13-2016 at 08:15 AM.
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      FryingMan - what aspect of the iBand+ "science" are you referring to? I'm quite tempted to take a punt on this one as it's still in the 'early bird' phase and if I can get a decent headband for half price it's worth a shot. I realise that it's a gamble and I could lose everything or be waiting for years, but it seems to come with the territory.

      The iBand+ looks slightly more polished and more comfortable than the Aurora to me.
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      The science of results measurement and evaluation of effectiveness, as I referred to in an earlier post.

      You can't know anything about the final product until it's done. Computer models and prototypes have nothing necessarily in common with the final result, you can't evaluate polish and comfort until you have it in your hands.

      So if you know it's going to be years, why not spend years building super high self-awareness, reflection, and memory abilities? You're going to need them anyway in order to sustain LDs, since at best an EILD will just give a slight assist in getting lucid. Otherwise it's just going to be in your dream, "ohh, look at the pretty sunset," (from the shining lights) and you continue on, non-lucid.
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      I agree with what you are saying. It's a gamble. I look on it as (a) helping to progress technology by supporting a new product (b) a new toy to play with which may help lucid dreaming and something to look forward to if it ever arrives!
      Still not sure but since it's only got just over a month to go and only 1/5th of the way to be funded it probably won't even get over the first hurdle.

      why not spend years building super high self-awareness, reflection, and memory abilities?
      I will.... headband or not
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      Quote Originally Posted by FryingMan View Post
      You can't know anything about the final product until it's done. Computer models and prototypes have nothing necessarily in common with the final result, you can't evaluate polish and comfort until you have it in your hands.
      Exactly! I noticed how slick and polished the artist's rendering for the original Aurora prototype was on their Kickstarter and iWinks social media pages. Really impressive and streamlined. This helped the original campaign in my view. Practicality, component and board sizes, batteries, bluetooth, etc. meant inevitable changes to the concept over time.
      However the reality is a long wait, a shift in marketing approach by the creators and a less aerodynamic product that looks like a headband with a PIR sensor on the front.

      Quote Originally Posted by Smudgefish View Post
      Still not sure but since it's only got just over a month to go and only 1/5th of the way to be funded it probably won't even get over the first hurdle.
      Remember, it only launched yesterday!
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      Remember, it only launched yesterday!
      Didn't spot that!
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      I have just created a seperate thread here in 'lucid aids' for perhaps further discussion about the iBand+ device.
      This is in fairness, I think to the OP which is about the LucidDreamer tACS discussion. Hope you agree.
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