Thread: Menthol as a Dream Enhancer

Unexpected Development: A Connection Between Acetylcholine, Menthol, and St. John's Wort?

That's a great post and opens up the field for some more experimentation. Great thing I have so many supplements around so that I can combine them without too much emphasis on a single one, so hopefully I can avoid desensitizing.

If you try again and you still have trouble sleeping, you may want to think about mixing it with another supplement like L-theanine to combat insomnia. It should help boost dopamine levels, too!

That's a great idea, I think my WBTB approach needs some refinement (in terms of behavior and timing) and sipping a cup of relaxing green tea may make an excellent addition!

Oh my, a menthol dream with Justin Bieber in it? It would have been interesting to see what happened if you did get the libido effect.

I think we will have plenty opportunity to read about libido dreams in the future. (I hope not too much though *shy*). But I have to admit I have rarely encountered cute and horny DCs. Remind me of this next time JB is around.

Also, I don't think I said this formally, so welcome to the experiment, you two. I look forward to seeing more of your results!

Thanks for the warm welcome Aly and others! I am also looking forward to experimenting and reading about your experiences as well. Dream on!

Originally Posted by NyxCC

That's a great idea, I think my WBTB approach needs some refinement (in terms of behavior and timing) and sipping a cup of relaxing green tea may make an excellent addition!

I'm not sure whether your green tea is decaf, but keep that in mind if you're trying to get back to sleep.

Speaking of caffeinated green tea, I sometimes use just a little caffeine (1-2 bags of regular green tea) in order to help make WILD come a little more readily. The idea is that a very, very small dose of caffeine suppresses deep sleep without making it too hard to go back to sleep or getting you too wired. Of course, that's walking a fine line! We play with this in Xanous' "Caffeine" research thread.

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

I'm not sure whether your green tea is decaf, but keep that in mind if you're trying to get back to sleep.

Speaking of caffeinated green tea, I sometimes use just a little caffeine (1-2 bags of regular green tea) in order to help make WILD come a little more readily. The idea is that a very, very small dose of caffeine suppresses deep sleep without making it too hard to go back to sleep or getting you too wired. Of course, that's walking a fine line! We play with this in Xanous' "Caffeine" research thread.

Well, I guess I would be doing two experiments in one then! Two-in-one? What?

I find that starting up my internal dialogue is a bigger problem that the small amount of green tea during WBTB. I must conduct a number of trials to see how it goes.

Umm, just to make sure - here’s no requirement to do only menthol in this thread, right? Obviously for sake of valid results, I will try not to add too many things otherwise we won’t be able to ascertain what caused what.

I don't want to double post if its just the methol-tea combo, so feel free to reference my results if you find them useful.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

Well, I guess I would be doing two experiments in one then! Two-in-one? What?

I find that starting up my internal dialogue is a bigger problem that the small amount of green tea during WBTB. I must conduct a number of trials to see how it goes.

Umm, just to make sure - here’s no requirement to do only menthol in this thread, right? Obviously for sake of valid results, I will try not to add too many things otherwise we won’t be able to ascertain what caused what.

I sure hope there's no requirement to only use menthol, because I very often combine. Menthol is an awesome support supp because it has huge effects on dream quality and length but doesn't (for me) make as much difference on lucidity. I wolfed down quite an assortment of aids the night of the "Weredog" dream. Here's my post for that cocktail: http://www.dreamviews.com/research/1...ml#post2014094 (Note: I tried all of these things in isolation and worked my way methodically up to this -- I don't endorse swallowing everything in sight! )

Caught your Task of the Month reference.

@Aly; keep up the good work I can't wait to start experimenting with the SJW/menthol combo after exams.

@Canis, any amount of caffeine at night seems plain wrong to me :S

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

@Aly; keep up the good work I can't wait to start experimenting with the SJW/menthol combo after exams.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing this as well! Did I mention that I love this thread? I do. It's true, you know.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

@Canis, any amount of caffeine at night seems plain wrong to me :S

I know exactly what you mean. It does feel a little nuts to ingest caffeine at WBTB. The trick, it seems, is to keep dosages very, very low. In the 25-40 mg range, caffeine seems to help hold off deep sleep, hopefully without giving you raging insomnia.

It seems to mostly play a supporting role, and after Xanous started his research into caffeine, we learned that Yuschak had been looking at the same thing. Here's a paper where he was studying it: http://lucidconsciousness.com/wp-con...cid-Dreams.pdf (Edit: Although I should mention that Xanous went through a phase where he used caffeine as a primary trigger with some success.)

Sorry for the caffeine crossover into the menthol thread. I guess it's only appropriate since I'm planning on combining the two tonight.

Quick question. I can't find piracetam capsules anywhere, will noopept do the trick at clearing the galantamine from my system? (I'm so new at LD supplements )

EDIT: nope, there's only nootropic powders on amazon, no capsules, which is a pain in the ass.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Quick question. I can't find piracetam capsules anywhere, will noopept do the trick at clearing the galantamine from my system? (I'm so new at LD supplements )

EDIT: nope, there's only nootropic powders on amazon, no capsules, which is a pain in the ass.

I had trouble finding it too, but here is a web that also sells it. NuTriVene
This is the brand I used. It says, it will be discontinued after june.

Menthol is an awesome support supp because it has huge effects on dream quality and length but doesn't (for me) make as much difference on lucidity.

I am looking forward to enhanced dream quality because of menthol. But I also believe that we may be able to capitalize on it and use it to become lucid indirectly. If there really are more or less persistent dream characteristics associated with menthol, then we just have to learn to identify those while dreaming. For example, “I am kissing JB, maybe this is a dream?”

(Note: I tried all of these things in isolation and worked my way methodically up to this -- I don't endorse swallowing everything in sight! )

Got it CL! No worries about that! I am sure outsiders may think we are supplement junkies but we are not, are we?

By the way, I tried fish oil and it only makes me to go into very deep, unmemorable sleep, so I won't be adding it to any cocktails unless they include salmon and some salad.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

I am looking forward to enhanced dream quality because of menthol. But I also believe that we may be able to capitalize on it and use it to become lucid indirectly. If there really are more or less persistent dream characteristics associated with menthol, then we just have to learn to identify those while dreaming. For example, “I am kissing JB, maybe this is a dream?”

Ny, don't know why but i think you might like JB???
So has anybody had any updates with green tea added?

Originally Posted by PeterF

Ny, don't know why but i think you might like JB???
So has anybody had any updates with green tea added?

Shhhh, quiet!

Oops, I totally messed up today. For one thing, I am starting to remind myself that if there is some erotic scene, I will be lucid. Not quite there though. The plan for today was have some green tea and possibly p. oil tablets after WBTB. Was very sleepy so totally ignored my plan, had sexual contents dream, did not get lucid. Dreams were vivid because of brain multivitamin I took...My experiments are really messed up. Oh, well...next time hopefully some better results and discipline in and out of dreams.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Quick question. I can't find piracetam capsules anywhere, will noopept do the trick at clearing the galantamine from my system? (I'm so new at LD supplements )

EDIT: nope, there's only nootropic powders on amazon, no capsules, which is a pain in the ass.

Good question, Ctharlhie. As my supply of Piracetam slowly dwindles, this is a question that I'll also need to figure out an answer for. It seems reasonable to me that the other racetams would work, but I simply don't know whether this has been studied.

There's a 1988 study that specifically Piracetam elevates muscarinic chol... [Psychopharmacology (Berl). 1988] - PubMed - NCBI addresses piracetam's ability to increase muscarinic receptor density in "aged mice". I'm not sure whether any similar studies have been done for the other racetams, but it's on my list of things to look into. As fewer and fewer caps rattle around in my bottle of piracetam, this has been on my mind more and more.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

I am looking forward to enhanced dream quality because of menthol. But I also believe that we may be able to capitalize on it and use it to become lucid indirectly. If there really are more or less persistent dream characteristics associated with menthol, then we just have to learn to identify those while dreaming. For example, “I am kissing JB, maybe this is a dream?”

That's a very good point! Getting to know the shape of menthol dreams and then going to bed with menthol on the brain does sound like a great way to give your brain the chance to connect the dots to lucidity.

Although, if a side effect of menthol that I have to look forward to is 106-degree Bieber Fever, I'm out.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

Got it CL! No worries about that! I am sure outsiders may think we are supplement junkies but we are not, are we?

By the way, I tried fish oil and it only makes me to go into very deep, unmemorable sleep, so I won't be adding it to any cocktails unless they include salmon and some salad.

Ahh, interesting! I have not been able to find very consistent differences in sleep quality with fish oil, but I take a good amount of the stuff anyway (for health and fitness reasons) so I've been pushing a bunch of it before bed to see what benefits it might bestow. Haven't noticed huge differences one way or the other yet.

Originally Posted by PeterF

Ny, don't know why but i think you might like JB???
So has anybody had any updates with green tea added?

Well, I've combined menthol w/ green tea in this post/trip report: http://www.dreamviews.com/research/1...ml#post2014094. I used galantamine and choline, too, so the green tea was specifically there to help make WILD easier to achieve.

I also used menthol and green tea last night. I've got a DJ entry to write up on that, then I'll post my trip report in this thread later.

Date: Fri May 10th 2013
Dose: Oil of Peppermint (x1) = 200 mg (@WBTB)
Side Effects: Generally ok
Sleep Duration: Before = 5 hrs (WBTB 12 min) After = 4 hrs. Total = 9 hrs
Cognitive: Normal. Auditory/H.I. Incubation
Sexual: No
Atmosphere: Normal, general family themes. Nothing (apparently) out of the ordinary noted.
Other Comments: A ‘normal’ morning of (NL) dreams and fragments. A hint of incubation in one of the (later) dreams.

Date: 11 May
Dose: pre bed 3mg mel, WBTB1 - 2xpeppermint oil tablets, WBTB2 - 1/2 cup green tea
Side effects: very mild heartburn, insomnia after WBTB2
Duration: 3.5 hrs + wbtb1 (5mins) + 1.5 hrs = 5 hrs
Cognitive: extremely vivid
Sexual: none
Atmosphere: task oriented, explorative, positive, some astonishment
Other comments: I am happy with the vividness results and frustrated with my insomnia (nothing new), but I think I am starting to understand the problem. Took melatonin and had a natural wake about 3.5 hrs after falling asleep, decided to use this opportunity to take the p.oil capsules then. Good idea. The beginning rebound plus the menthol resulted in what I felt was fantastic vividness. Dream contents was about lucid dreaming where I was analyzing the effects of menthol and trying to go to bed. Also got some other realistic details.

Lucid status menthol dream

WBTB 2: set alarm the night before because I wanted to have tea to increase my chances of being lucid. Was a bit overexcited and too much analytical so internal dialogue turned on, plus outside noise, could not fall asleep.

Analysis: I should have noted by now that melatonin increases the chances of insomnia for me and my rather restless mind.
Suggestions for future experiments: Combo1: early WBTB with p. oil and tea
Combo2: pre bed: mel3, micro- WBTB early on with p. oil ( no tea, and not during weekends - too noisy!)
Combo3: pre bed: other supplement ( SJW/ginko/multivit) + p. oil ?
WBTB: I am keeping a close eye on the timings, and will experiment to find the optimal spot for different supps.

Another Update!

This is not so much something new about menthol but about something more it potentially does....

This is more a paper than a study but I found it mentioned in several places and this pretty much sums it up: Rem Sleep Paralysis and RBD - Cristina Badino e Chiara Barberis.

So basically, what it says is.... simultaneous activation of GABA(B) and GABA(A)/glycine receptors in the pons is responsible for REM atonia, aka, sleep paralysis. And if the last study I posted is right, menthol hits two out of the three. In fact, because of the way alcohol's GABA effects work, it may do it even more effectively than that....

Maybe that's why it's so great for WILDing?

Well I bought 60 200mg capsules and have taken them twice now and both times I got absolutely nothing. If there was a difference in my dream it was completely unnoticeable.
Weird how one or two cups of fresh fragrant peppermint tea could have such an impact upon my dreams, and a huge 200mg of peppermint oil could do nothing...

@Aly; your research is so inspiring. I can't believe no one caught on to menthol as a dream enhancer before.

@dutch; bah, don't go saying that still I'm trying my peppermint capsules tonight, with b5 and choline/inositol. Should I imbibe alcohol before bed as well? (Before bed of course)

Originally Posted by dutchraptor

Well I bought 60 200mg capsules and have taken them twice now and both times I got absolutely nothing. If there was a difference in my dream it was completely unnoticeable.
Weird how one or two cups of fresh fragrant peppermint tea could have such an impact upon my dreams, and a huge 200mg of peppermint oil could do nothing...

You may want to try a higher dose? Remember that the peppermint tea also has things like vitamins in it. I'd guess that the purer source you get the higher dose you might need.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

@Aly; your research is so inspiring. I can't believe no one caught on to menthol as a dream enhancer before.

Thanks, Ctharlhie. It was just a lucky find anyway though, I had no idea it had all these different receptor affinities or anything. I'm sure people have noticed something from peppermint tea before, especially since it used to be used as an aphrodisiac. I guess it just never caught on as much as others though, but I'm sure there are plenty of other unknown dream enhancers too!

Has anyone used this brand for galantamine before? Will be trustworthy/good quality. My other option is to import from the states, which is a bit expensive. Alternatively there's always the Huperzine A route... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Source-Natur...hu-rd_add_1_dp, which does seem much better value, G is pretty expensive.

@Xanous, you had success with Huperzine?

Also, on the subject of amino acids, was it decided that l-glutamine is the best for lucid dreaming?

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Has anyone used this brand for galantamine before? Will be trustworthy/good quality.

Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with this brand. I've used Galantamind as my source for G.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

@Xanous, you had success with Huperzine?

I'm starting to rotate huperzine-A, and actually had a lucid dream with it this morning. 200 mcg didn't work as well for me as 400 mcg seemed to, but there are few downsides to starting with small doses first and seeing what works for you. I'd also recommend keeping huperzine-A spaced out just like you would G. Yuschak's guideline of putting 4 days in between doses is probably a good rough guideline to follow.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Also, on the subject of amino acids, was it decided that l-glutamine is the best for lucid dreaming?

It's certainly the most accessible! Yuschak said that he'd become lucid w/ just L-glutamine and L-theanine but that it worked significantly better when he included L-aspartic acid. Unfortunately, L-aspartic acid is a bit more annoying to acquire. (I'm assuming you're talking about Yuschak's amino acid blend here.) I'm experimenting w/ cutting out the L-theanine myself and probably throwing in a little caffeine. Work in progress.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Also, on the subject of amino acids, was it decided that l-glutamine is the best for lucid dreaming?

I think that'd be pretty hard to settle on, but L-glutamine can definitely have positive effects. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't starting to get interested in a choline/L-glutamine/L-glycine/GABA (or maybe picamilon for better brain penetration) mix....

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

It's certainly the most accessible! Yuschak said that he'd become lucid w/ just L-glutamine and L-theanine but that it worked significantly better when he included L-aspartic acid. Unfortunately, L-aspartic acid is a bit more annoying to acquire.

L-Aspartic Acid Pure Powder 500g (1.1 lb, 17.6 oz), Food Grade for Energy. - Amazon

Source Naturals L-Aspartic Acid Powder 100Gm - DrVita

Looking for this?

Originally Posted by Alyzarin

I think that'd be pretty hard to settle on, but L-glutamine can definitely have positive effects. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't starting to get interested in a choline/L-glutamine/L-glycine/GABA (or maybe picamilon for better brain penetration) mix....

Ooh, you have my attention... keep us updated if you do/think anything in this area. The GABA/picamilon is an interesting twist. How's that fit into the overall effect you're going for?

Originally Posted by Alyzarin

L-Aspartic Acid Pure Powder 500g (1.1 lb, 17.6 oz), Food Grade for Energy. - Amazon

Source Naturals L-Aspartic Acid Powder 100Gm - DrVita

Looking for this?

Sweeeet... I wound up using the Source Naturals one off of iHerb, but the price Aly found is actually even a little bit lower than what I paid. L-glutamine is nice because you can just waltz into GNC or any nutritional store where you find enormous men w/ no necks congregating.

Originally Posted by gab

I had trouble finding it too, but here is a web that also sells it. NuTriVene
This is the brand I used. It says, it will be discontinued after june.

Thanks for the link, gab! That's also the brand that I used, except I bought it off Amazon before they quit selling piracetam. Just this morning I stared at my bottle and made a mental note to visit their website in the hopes they sold directly. It's disappointing to hear that they're discontinuing after June.

@Xanous, you had success with Huperzine?

Yes it's almost a good as galantamine. 400mcg works best for me. I bought the puritan's pride brand. I don't think I've combined it with menthol yet though... Just DMAE and choline.

So many trigger combinations, so little funds...

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

Ooh, you have my attention... keep us updated if you do/think anything in this area. The GABA/picamilon is an interesting twist. How's that fit into the overall effect you're going for?

Will do! Well, I would prefer picamilon over GABA since GABA alone has really low blood-brain barrier penetration, and picamilon is just a prodrug that passes into the brain first made by mixing GABA with niacin. That means that in addition to activating central GABA receptors it also increases blood flow to the brain, which has a nootropic effect. I've often used niacin to clear anxiety attacks because it gets rid of my brain fog. So with those in place, by taking L-glycine you would logically be activating GABA(B) and GABA(A)/glycine receptors in the brain stem, potentiating the natural REM atonia mechanism. The L-glutamine would also lead to enhanced glutamate that would activate the kainate receptors and induce REM, just like the choline with muscarinic receptors. I'd probably add more into it too, but that would just be the basic idea....

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

Sweeeet... I wound up using the Source Naturals one off of iHerb, but the price Aly found is actually even a little bit lower than what I paid. L-glutamine is nice because you can just waltz into GNC or any nutritional store where you find enormous men w/ no necks congregating.

Ah yes, those are some of my favorite places. Speaking of which, I may need to stop by the GNC right by my house soon....

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

So many trigger combinations, so little funds...

And they'll keep coming out with more and more from now until the end of time.