Thread: WILD According to Sageous Q & A

Originally Posted by hermine_hesse

Sageous, I have a question regarding the "hold still and wait" part. I may be the only one here who hasn't read all the WILD tutorials on this site. (The focus on SP always drove me crazy, so I have just avoided them.)

I have a relaxation technique I developed for myself over the years and wondering if it could be helpful in WILDing. I visualize myself lying on a beach. I am at the edge of the shore and the waves begin to gently wash over me. The waves, which are in synch with my breath, start at my toes and slowly go up my body. As the tide recedes, all stress and tension leave and I am completely relaxed. Usually, I also add in a mantra to the timing of the waves. I have been doing this for years, so I can also produce the relaxation effect now, without the visualization part.

If I used the "blank" version and added in my new mantra, would this work for "hold still and wait"?

Wow, Hermine, I became relaxed and very peaceful just reading your post!

I think that relaxation method should work very well, especially if you can do it without the visualization part (which would be a distraction, I think). Just be careful you don't get too relaxed, and slip into regular sleep .. though I think repetition of the mantra (and with it retaining your self-awareness and intention) will likely keep that from happening.

Originally Posted by RareCola

Seems waves are pretty common for visualisation in here! I use beach settings too, or even floating on a raft feeling the motion of the waves.

As I just mentioned on the other thread: Water, particularly the ocean, is an archetype for the unconscious, so it doesn't surprise me that it turns up in many a dreamer's relaxation/visualization pattern.

And, just to make it all totally deep, in visualizing a beach -- especially in the manner Hermine does -- you are visualizing a place where the land, water, and air all meet. Now, consider the land your body, the water your mind, and the air your spirit, your stepping into some serious archetyping indeed!

Sageous, what is your procedure for WILD? I feel like I've read so many guides with differing advice that I almost want a definitive 'Sageous WILD' for the class.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Sageous, what is your procedure for WILD? I feel like I've read so many guides with differing advice that I almost want a definitive 'Sageous WILD' for the class.

My procedure? Well, first an apology: I avoided listing my version of LDHSW because in all honesty I don't care much about techniques, and didn't want to make what I do more important than the other 15 bazillion WILD techniques. To offer my own technique might make it look like the LDHSW matters to me -- which it does not.

Okay, with the intellectual excuse/disclaimer behind me, let me tell you what I do. I think I may already have done so, indirectly, in the weave of the sessions, so all apologies for any repetition. Anyway, here is my general procedure for classic WILD:

1. First, I usually stay up until about 2am (or 3 am when I find myself sitting here typing posts), then go to bed, with as many dreamy thoughts as possible.

2. I wake my wife up for work at about 6am, then lie quietly until 8 am, when it's time to see her off. Then I return to bed.

3. I then set my white noise machine (everyone should have one!), and lie down and wait.

4. I have a bit of a wandering mind (I likely would've had ADD as a kid, had they invented it yet), so I usually let it wander for a half hour or so before starting, just to give those pesky random thoughts a chance to swim by before I start, rather than during.

5. I then do a version of the "61 points" relaxation method, finishing with a single deep breath and long exhale that marks the first uttering of my mantra.

6. I recite my mantra silently, timing it with my breath. Since my mantra varies from WILD to WILD, I will say the one-syllable mantras on the in-breath, and nothing on the out breath, or else divide multi-syllabic mantras evenly between in and out breaths. It is important to do this, I think, because it syncs my mantra with the motion of my body (physical and spiritual, for the mystics out there) and both elevates the significance of the mantra and helps me relax.

7. Relaxed, with mantra and breathing steady, and most stray thoughts drifting quietly on the sideline, I begin my wait. During the wait I try to think of nothing at all, save that I am here and everything going on around me is a product of my own mind and body. BTW, this is one reason my mantra is important: because I usually use a mantra that reflects my goals for dreaming that day, it can carry my expectations and intentions for me without my needing to remember them during this quiet time.

8. The "noise" comes and goes. I ignore it completely. I always did, and have no idea why.

9. During the brief NREM "break" I tend to get between the noise and dreams, I pause -- hell, I bask -- in nothingness for a moment, then start to visualize my dream by remembering all the things today's mantra refers to, and summoning simple versions of appropriate schema (ie, if I'm going to a favorite dream mansion I like to visit, I start with a white stone or blob, and let my mantra and expectations form the blob into the castle eventually -- so now is the time for the blob).

10. REM, and the dream begins, usually in very rudimentary form. The rest is up to how much self-awareness, memory, and expectation came along with me.

So that's it. Though it looks like a lot, basically I do almost nothing at all during the LDHSW section -- so not much technique to share, I guess.

There's no need to apologise, I just expected a more didactic approach, I thought you'd lay out your favoured LDHSW. I possibly get too hung up with technique in all my previous attempts anyway.
Thanks for sharing, but yep, I was worried you were going to say something along those lines :/
For my part I find that I can't simply do nothing and remain 'present' as I drift into sleep. Your set up is ideal for WILD, you have the luxury of staying up for 2 hours with free time to attempt WILD and with enough of a sleep deficit to give a quick return to REM. I think that's why your WILD is very 'pure', all you do is literally fall asleep retaining awareness, the very definition of a wake initiated lucid dream. Maybe it has something to do with you indirectly practising dream yoga for so long?

I'll run this by you. The 'noise' I get tends to be progressively more illogical and dream-like thought patterns, at first these are like 'impressions', almost memories of thoughts. These thoughts progress to intangible mind's eye imagery, and then actual hypnagogic imagery I see with my actual eyes. On occasion I've been lucid enough to manipulate this imagery and almost enter a dream. One thing I found in some of my experiments with the hypnagogic state is that if I maintain a visualisation of a simple geometric shape such as a sphere or prism, hypnagogia will come and go, sometimes interacting with my visualisation, but as the images progress and dissipate the shape I am imagining remains constant. Is this a kind of LDHSW technique you would recommend?

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

There's no need to apologise, I just expected a more didactic approach, I thought you'd lay out your favoured LDHSW. I possibly get too hung up with technique in all my previous attempts anyway.
Thanks for sharing, but yep, I was worried you were going to say something along those lines :/

Sorry! I can only say it like it is -- I'm not a fan of techniques, especially the ones that don't matter in the big picture of dreaming, like LDHSW, where all you're really supposed to do is Lie Down, Hold Still, and Wait... hard to have a fovored technique when I can't see, much less value, a technique in the first place.

For my part I find that I can't simply do nothing and remain 'present' as I drift into sleep. Your set up is ideal for WILD, you have the luxury of staying up for 2 hours with free time to attempt WILD and with enough of a sleep deficit to give a quick return to REM. I think that's why your WILD is very 'pure', all you do is literally fall asleep retaining awareness, the very definition of a wake initiated lucid dream.

Timing in WILD is, indeed, everything. Is there no way you can finagle one night/morning every week or two from which you can extract your "perfect timing?" If not, you might need to switch to my favorite form of WILD, DEILD, which is much more flexible, time-wise; more on that this Tuesday.

Maybe it has something to do with you indirectly practising dream yoga for so long?

I've never thought about it, but sure, I suppose it is. I'm not sure that matters, though, except that getting to the "pure" WILD might take a while, and require some serious practice... but that doesn't mean you can't have not-so-pure or genuinely sloppy WILD and still manage to get to the LD without losing awareness!

I'll run this by you. The 'noise' I get tends to be progressively more illogical and dream-like thought patterns, at first these are like 'impressions', almost memories of thoughts. These thoughts progress to intangible mind's eye imagery, and then actual hypnagogic imagery I see with my actual eyes. On occasion I've been lucid enough to manipulate this imagery and almost enter a dream. One thing I found in some of my experiments with the hypnagogic state is that if I maintain a visualisation of a simple geometric shape such as a sphere or prism, hypnagogia will come and go, sometimes interacting with my visualisation, but as the images progress and dissipate the shape I am imagining remains constant. Is this a kind of LDHSW technique you would recommend?

That is an excellent technique, almost a mandala method I would say. It's awfully close to a distracting form of meditation, but I think, in your case, you'll be able to avoid the distraction and continue to the dream. You could even "keep" the geometric shape with you in the dream, as a sort of memory cue to help you maintain high awareness and perhaps with control. Pretty cool!

Just wondering, but Sageous, how long did it take you to figure out your perfect WBTB time?
I'm still having trouble figuring out mine, and I don't know where to start.
I know it's probably somewhere in between the 5 - 6 hour range. The first WILD I ever had I slept for about 6 hours with an alarm, but for some reason that's backfiring on me now. :/

Originally Posted by Sydney

Just wondering, but Sageous, how long did it take you to figure out your perfect WBTB time?
I'm still having trouble figuring out mine, and I don't know where to start.
I know it's probably somewhere in between the 5 - 6 hour range. The first WILD I ever had I slept for about 6 hours with an alarm, but for some reason that's backfiring on me now. :/

My perfect WBTB time has evolved over the years as I aged, lived in different places, and my daily routines shifted, so it's hard to say. I guess it took a week or two to find my latest perfect time.

You might start to find yours by figuring you just got lucky with that 6 hr sleep time, but use it as a benchmark: consider that your max time, and work backward from there. For instance, if you can wake up after 5 1/2 hrs without an alarm, and make that your time. And, if you wake up after 5 hrs, or 5 3/4 hrs, just go with it. Then try again, getting as close to 5 hrs as you can get.

I guess what I'm basically saying is don't be too concerned about timing; make an effort to get close to a good time (if you think 5-6 hrs, is right, then it probably is), stay confident, self-aware, and casual, and these details will work themselves out.

Was the WILD attempts thread supposed to be closed, or did you close it by accident?

I guess I closed it by accident... Seems odd, because it's a pretty difficult thing to not do on purpose! But I wouldn't put it past my fumble fingers!

Either that, or someone doesn't like what we're posting... I hope that isn't the case.

But whatever that case might be, the thread is open again (as far as I know)... Hopefully it'll stay that way.

Thanks for the heads-up, RareCola!

Okay, thanks It seems now though that I can't really wake up naturally around those times anymore. The times I usually wake up naturally are about 4 hours after sleeping (rarely though) or after about 7 hours.
I guess that means that I'll have to use a mantra, or drink some water. Not sure about the latter though, because it's kind of a random chance, don't you think?

I guess what I'm saying is.. do you think there is a way I could just naturally on my own wake up at those times, almost guaranteed, without any preparation like mantras? I guess that would be the easy way out though.. lol.

Or do you think if I keep saying mantras for around that time every night, I'll eventually just wake up naturally at those times?

Sorry if that whole thing was confusing. x)

^^ Yep, that was confusing! The mantra is supposed to come into play after you lay back down following WBTB; it isn't needed at bedtime the night before, and, as far as I know, will not help much with waking you up. it is your guide through the actual WILD, nothing more.

That said, I think there are ways you can use autosuggestion to help get your body interested in waking up at a certain time...sadly I don't know them myself, but I'd bet a search will find you something about it on this site.

Bottom line: Try not to worry too much about this, Sydney; you'll likely wake up sometime near that five-hour minimum anyway, and you could set an alarm as a safeguard, just in case you don't. It's good to have a perfect WBTB time, bit you can still WILD without it...oh, and mantras aren't for bedtime in this exercise!

I hope I understood what you meant; let ke know if I got it wrong.

Thanks! I'm sorry, I should have actually said what I meant. By mantras I meant autosuggestion - I get those two confused!

Okay, I'll try not to worry too much about it. Here's to a successful WILD tonight.

Is it possible to forget a successful WILD?

Originally Posted by ThAtaInTmE

Is it possible to forget a successful WILD?

It's possible, but very unlikely. Since it's both an intense waking-life consciousness event, and also likely a significant event for you, the chances of your brain opting not to store the memory in at least your short-term memory (meaning you'll remember it clearly upon waking) are slim to non-existent.

In other words, you'll remember it.

Bad News, Folks: The Next Session is Running Late!

Session #7: the Other WILD, was supposed to go up today, but real life interfered and I was not able to put it all together in time. I'll try to have it done by Thursday or Friday.

In the meantime, I'll still be checking in, so be sure to continue posting your WILD attempts.

All apologies!

WILD Session 7: The Other WILD is finally posted.

Enjoy!

Can't believe it's been 7 weeks already! I feel like I've learnt so much and even felt like I've reached a point where lucid dreaming has just "clicked" -- it's hard to explain, just a sense that I'm much more in control of my lucidity now. I think a lot of this has to be down to your excellent guidance!

Thank you a million times over for this class, and I look forward to many WILDs and DEILDs in the future using your advice.

Awesome! Just finished reading it

I was wondering though, I have had a few DEILDs since I started -- most of which happen early in the morning where I don't wanna wake up just yet -- and I was curious about the laying still part. I've noticed that when I start to wake up, I always roll over to the other side of my body, but yet I get lucid. I have experimented before with laying still when that waking moment comes, but for some reason, I become lucid more frequently when I roll over. Any thoughts on this?

And thank you so much for taking the time to teach all of us! We all learned so much from this, indeed!

Originally Posted by paigeyemps

I was wondering though, I have had a few DEILDs since I started -- most of which happen early in the morning where I don't wanna wake up just yet -- and I was curious about the laying still part. I've noticed that when I start to wake up, I always roll over to the other side of my body, but yet I get lucid. I have experimented before with laying still when that waking moment comes, but for some reason, I become lucid more frequently when I roll over. Any thoughts on this?

I think, then, that you should roll over. There are exceptions to every rule, Paigeyemps, especially the "rules" for LD'ing, which have as yet only begun to be written...

So, is there any specific technique for remembering to stay still upon waking? Or is it all about intent? Would mantras work?

And thank you so much for this class, I understand so much more about WILD's now!

Originally Posted by Sydney

So, is there any specific technique for remembering to stay still upon waking? Or is it all about intent? Would mantras work?

The key, I think, is in simply remembering. If you can remember, when you begin to wake up, that you were dreaming and are still mostly asleep, then the rest is relatively easy. So I guess it is indeed all about intent, or at least mental prep/strong self-awareness -- if you are ready to notice that you are waking up, then you will notice! A mantra should not be necessary this time.

I just wanted to thank you for your brilliant course you just finished. It was amazing. I stopped LD'ing for a while but I did attempt a WILD last night, only problem was that I went to bed at 12 AM and then woke up at 6 AM, there was far too much noise for me to try WILD. I usually go to bed a bit earlier but even still I can wake up at 5 or 5:30 which should be better.

Two questions regarding the DEILD.

1. Can you train yourself to wake up after each dream?

2a. What is the most movement you could accidentally do and still succeed?

2b. Does eye movement count. Obviously it's rapid eye movement stage, but you're awake so
I just wanted to put that out there. How about eyelids?

And yes, thank you very much for the detailed course. So sad it's over. I liked learning the new things and having new Things to practice.