Thread: You are or aren't

....and the argument get's even more ridiculous.

Willpower and intent are entirely different?

Do you believe that tripe? Have you ever looked a dictionary before? Intent and willpower rely on each other, you cannot have one without the other.

I'm not talking about that kind of intent.

Let me ask you something,
If it is so ridiculous, why bother?

It seems you'd rather argue about words anyway.

All I'm saying, is remove your doubts, and anything is possible.
I also said anything is possible with unbending intent.
Are you are playing dumb? Because you know exactly what I mean by intent, in this context.

I honestly don't know why are you angry at us.

Does lucid dreaming come so naturally to you, that you can't even comprehend, how somebody can't do it same, effortless way as you can?

That's the same, as if a math or arts or sports genius would call everybody who is not at their level stupid. Somebody is born with it, somebody doesn't realize his pottential untill he starts learning or training, and somebody can try his darndest...

Well guess what, just because you are a natural, that doesn't make rest of us any less than you are. We are dedicated, practicing, enthusiastic, excited, working on recall, reading everything we can get our hands on, tutorials and books, we communicate to share our knowledge, and we share this bond, that you will perhaps never understand. Because you never had to lift a finger for it. To be honest, I wouldn't wanna be ya. I prefer to work for my rewards. You probably not even realizing that what you have is a reward, and you may not value and appreciate it as much as we do.

Another difference between us and you is, that we are happy for our success and for everybody elses success. When we figure something out, we rush here and post in hope, that it will help someone else as well. When someone asks a question, we are happy to reply to the best of our abilities. We have no secrets. What I know, everybody else knows, because I have posted it someplace. And what I don't know, I find in posts of others.

I'm sad to say, that from your post, I have learned nothing.

Well said gab!
I can see how intent and willpower are two different things - one taking loads of energy to overcome inner drives - the other a re-programming of these drives by intentional thinking.
Just - I really wonder, how far this can carry you.
I mean - if I could just set intent on LD - I would be lucid at least once a night.
Maybe not more to not disrupt whatever normal dreams have to contribute to my mental health - but surely one or two per every night anyway.
And I can not get rid of my suspicion concerning your frequency of LD being much lower than that.
And the suspicion that you do not have full dream-control either.

Once more:
What you did answer to - and with yes - were these two:

Do you remember your lucid goals from waking life - whatever they are? Yes.
Can you realize them? Yes.

You also clarified that you use pure intent without will-power.



Okay - what about the others?
These are ones, which can not be answered by yes or no - here we go again:

1.) When was your first LD?
2.) How many LDs per night?
3.) How long are your lucids?
4.) What was your greatest lucid control feature up to now?


After all - you have opened a thread seemingly with the intention of freeing those who listen to you from the boundaries of doubt and method - to advertise your approach actually.
So - wouldn´t it be fair to report about your successes in detail?

You have answered my questions partly - which is better than nothing, SilverBullet - but please - let us know more.

Besides - how come you behave, as if you yourself had a new guide on how to LD - while despising it otherwise to give such.
Stetting an unbending, permanently* installed intent is a method also - and actually you could tell us exactly how you did that.
*oh wait - is it permanently installed/do you LD every night?

Waiting for answers 1-4 with high expectations of you being "enough of a man" to still my curiosity!
You have a right to such an opinion as a beginner as well of course - just if - the tone might be not chosen wisely..

Originally Posted by gab

I honestly don't know why are you angry at us.

Does lucid dreaming come so naturally to you, that you can't even comprehend, how somebody can't do it same, effortless way as you can?

That's the same, as if a math or arts or sports genius would call everybody who is not at their level stupid. Somebody is born with it, somebody doesn't realize his pottential untill he starts learning or training, and somebody can try his darndest...

Well guess what, just because you are a natural, that doesn't make rest of us any less than you are. We are dedicated, practicing, enthusiastic, excited, working on recall, reading everything we can get our hands on, tutorials and books, we communicate to share our knowledge, and we share this bond, that you will perhaps never understand. Because you never had to lift a finger for it. To be honest, I wouldn't wanna be ya. I prefer to work for my rewards. You probably not even realizing that what you have is a reward, and you may not value and appreciate it as much as we do.

Another difference between us and you is, that we are happy for our success and for everybody elses success. When we figure something out, we rush here and post in hope, that it will help someone else as well. When someone asks a question, we are happy to reply to the best of our abilities. We have no secrets. What I know, everybody else knows, because I have posted it someplace. And what I don't know, I find in posts of others.

I'm sad to say, that from your post, I have learned nothing.

I'm frustrated.
It is my idiotic indulgence to try to help any of you, yet I do it anyway because I feel sorry for you. I used to be where you all were. I tryed my very best without any fruition. When I realized the answer was staring me in the face the entire time, I felt a great sadness for humanity. You see, It's not just about lucid dreaming. It's about life. I feel so alone the deeper I get into this, I get bottled up. I want to help others out of pointless frustration, even though I know, that no matter what I do, I can't do anything. I can only point in the direction of what you already see, but completely ignore. I am deeply sorry if I hurt any of you.

Originally Posted by StephL

Well said gab!
I can see how intent and willpower are two different things - one taking loads of energy to overcome inner drives - the other a re-programming of these drives by intentional thinking.
Just - I really wonder, how far this can carry you.
I mean - if I could just set intent on LD - I would be lucid at least once a night.
Maybe not more to not disrupt whatever normal dreams have to contribute to my mental health - but surely one or two per every night anyway.
And I can not get rid of my suspicion concerning your frequency of LD being much lower than that.
And the suspicion that you do not have full dream-control either.

Once more:
What you did answer to - and with yes - were these two:

Do you remember your lucid goals from waking life - whatever they are? Yes.
Can you realize them? Yes.

You also clarified that you use pure intent without will-power.



Okay - what about the others?
These are ones, which can not be answered by yes or no - here we go again:

1.) When was your first LD?
2.) How many LDs per night?
3.) How long are your lucids?
4.) What was your greatest lucid control feature up to now?


After all - you have opened a thread seemingly with the intention of freeing those who listen to you from the boundaries of doubt and method - to advertise your approach actually.
So - wouldn´t it be fair to report about your successes in detail?

You have answered my questions partly - which is better than nothing, SilverBullet - but please - let us know more.

Besides - how come you behave, as if you yourself had a new guide on how to LD - while despising it otherwise to give such.
Stetting an unbending, permanently* installed intent is a method also - and actually you could tell us exactly how you did that.
*oh wait - is it permanently installed/do you LD every night?

Waiting for answers 1-4 with high expectations of you being "enough of a man" to still my curiosity!
You have a right to such an opinion as a beginner as well of course - just if - the tone might be not chosen wisely..

My first ld that I can remember was around the first month i joined deamviews. September, if I remember correctly.
Per night I can have anywhere from 0 to 10 lucid dreams. It depends on how much energy and time I have on my hands. The same with the length of my lucids.

My greatest control in my dreams is to be able to wake up into another dream at will.

Intent is something that is extremely abstract yet infinitely simple. It is not done with thought. It is done with our very beings.

Okay - thank you - impressive!

My above post is meant as reaction to the answer you gave me directly - again - impressive and thank you.
But maybe I can help you, even.

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

I'm frustrated.
It is my idiotic indulgence to try to help any of you, yet I do it anyway because I feel sorry for you.

I used to be where you all were. I tryed my very best without any fruition.

When I realized the answer was staring me in the face the entire time, I felt a great sadness for humanity.
You see, It's not just about lucid dreaming.
It's about life.
I feel so alone the deeper I get into this, I get bottled up.
I want to help others out of pointless frustration, even though I know, that no matter what I do, I can't do anything.

I can only point in the direction of what you already see, but completely ignore. I am deeply sorry if I hurt any of you.

How could you hurt anyone with what you said? You caused some aversive, sceptical reactions - that is not hurting somebody.
And how can you say, we on here completely ignore, what you - and indeed we as well - already see?

You know - here on dreamviews - there is not much need for feeling sorry for people who do - for example - not lucid dream.
We all work on it - and most of us do dream lucidly.
You surely know this?
You have also been progressing and going through a personal development to where you are - maybe you underestimate the role, some earlier crutches played in that.
Since you did not go through from childhood LDing to now.
And many of the answers to your thread - especially on the first page - give you a pure positive feedback without critical questions.

I am absolutely sure, that anybody you ask on here, is also of the opinion, that it is best to throw away your doubts, believe in yourself and your abilities, and that you can use them.
And actually do it.

Reaching farther than that - but that is all you are on about - reaching farther - opinions divide - but surely not on what you bring up.
The disagreement stems from you seemingly arrogantly shaking your head up front about everybody, who starts riding the bike with training-wheels - to then happily throw them away - like any child does. Or not - up to everybody themselves - but most will, I am sure.

You are not alone at all - especially not on here!
Switch from sadness to compassion and acceptance of yourself and others, maybe?
Just take a bit more care, not to judge too fast.


Oh - and edit: you might just as well be indeed able to help people - like so many other people on DV help others.
Maybe just a bit of a fleshing out of your mindset and outlook could be very inspirational for some!

Originally Posted by StephL

My above post is meant as reaction to the answer you gave me directly - again - impressive and thank you.
But maybe I can help you, even.



How could you hurt anyone with what you said? You caused some aversive, sceptical reactions - that is not hurting somebody.
And how can you say, we on here completely ignore, what you - and indeed we as well - already see?

You know - here on dreamviews - there is not much need for feeling sorry for people who do - for example - not lucid dream.
We all work on it - and most of us do dream lucidly.
You surely know this?
And many of the answers to your thread - especially on the first page - give you a pure positive feedback without critical questions.

I am absolutely sure, that anybody you ask on here, is of the opinion, that it is best to best throw away your doubts, believe in yourself and your abilities, and that you can use them.
And actually do it.

Reaching farther than that - but that is all you are on about - reaching farther - opinions divide - but surely not on what you bring up.
The disagreement stems from you seemingly arrogantly shaking your head up front about everybody, who starts riding the bike with training-wheels - to then happily throw them away - like any child does. Or not - up to everybody themselves - but most will, I am sure.

You are not alone at all - especially not on here!
Switch from sadness to compassion and acceptance of yourself and others, maybe?
Just take a bit more care, not to judge too fast.


Oh - and edit: you might just as well be indeed able to help people - like so many other people on DV help others.
Maybe just a bit of a fleshing out of your mindset and outlook could be very inspirational for some!

It's all talk, they agree, but those agreements are entirely empty. They talk but do not act.
It is scary and sickening what this implies.

I am aware that many of you dream lucidly, but to do it with methods always produces inconsistent results, and they all wonder why.

Intent is to be used, not talked about.
It is impossible to "flesh it out"

This thread reminds me of when I was really naïve when it came to lucid dreaming. If this thread was created during my initial stages of coming to this site, it would be a nice supplementary and uplifting post on OP’s end, but looking at it now, this isn’t really anything surprising.

Intent, willpower, or whatever terminology people want to utilize, merely focusing on building a conceptual framework into thinking you’re a natural lucid dreamer is only a supplement. It doesn’t mean the individual is absolved from accumulating an experiential totality with remembering their dreams and recording them.

Nor does it absolve that individual from finding methods to augment their cognition and metacognition so their minds can easily make the connections needed towards gaining unconscious competence in knowing that they’re dreaming.

Whether that person is “talented,” or just has certain factors (e.g. congenital, cognitive, or metacognitive attributes) that can help them develop a natural awareness of the dream state, garnering an experiential totality will most likely override the self-fulfilling prophecies that many newcomers end up being stuck countless of times. (Surprise, Surprise, constant practice to be consistent with that behavior of optimism eventually becomes true!)

I would be just like any newcomer back then--going through developing predispositions that I’m the “best” lucid dreamer I could possibly be. Sometimes when a person tries to persevere and develop a strong willpower, it can prevent them from learning how to appreciate their failures in attempting lucidity.

They prefer to close their eyes and will away their flaws from existence to sustain that delusions of grandeur disposition that will backfire on them if they don’t accept the fact that developing skills in relation to lucid dreaming will take some time despite of whatever competencies the person has stacked beforehand. We're creatures of habit, and learning how to adjust accordingly without having past ideologies/critical voice/conceptual frameworks/etc. getting in the way and potentially leading to cognitive dissonance takes time. You don't just "will it" into your perception...it may happen by chance, but only by chance.

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

I am aware that many of you dream lucidly, but to do it with methods always produces inconsistent results, and they all wonder why.

Those methods are just aids to develop the meta-cognitive ability for natural lucidity. I can empathize for you that any method has less efficacy if there’s not intent instilled with it (i.e. reality checking like a broken record), but you can’t produce this impasse logic that there’s no need for people to practice to reach some level of competence into this. Especially since your rudimentary ideology can be just as inconsistent as any other disposition the individual chooses to develop.

Intent is to be used, not talked about.
It is impossible to "flesh it out"

Used as a supplement along with other factors any dreamer wants to incorporate in their quotidian lifestyle. If you're trying to give the impression that you're able to vicariously empathize for newcomers who are trying to get on your path in being a natural lucid dreamer, you'd at least acknowledge that practice and developing experience, discipline, and such contributes into reaching that. Especially since the drive for becoming better at lucidity is something progressive, not something that's sustained with an impasse logic to not utilize methods to one's advantage.


It's one thing to find ways to learn how to resolve cognitive dissonance to get rid of those menial doubts people face when attempting lucid dreaming. But it's a completely different matter when you feel as if you're informing newcomers with this, but you're only adding on to that delusions of grandeur that makes everyone think they can absolve themselves from accumulating experiential knowledge with other attributes other than just conceptual motivation.


If anything, the individual needs to get used to that experimentation stage (which is probably always going to be a progressive experimentation with consciousness exploration) before they truly can understand the logic behind, "you are or aren't." Hell, I could just pop in a random thread and state,

"Courage is the magic that turns dreams into reality"

And call it a day.


But I agree with others that maybe you should expound more on your philosophy here so this doesn't end up in unintelligible equivocation.

You are making it much more complicated that it really is.

Words are fun to play with and all, but ultimately they do not help us in the realm of dreams.

As I said, I know it is pointless.

You might think that experimenting, and testing with all kinds of different techniques is the important part, but it is not. Using your intent is very simple, so in my opinion it is best to keep it that way.
Being convinced that you have the power to make it happen is all you really need. You do not need experience to do that. Infact, experience with methods can make your doubts worse. I was convinced I had the power to lucid dream regardless of anything. I barely had any experience, but when I let go and trusted my power it came to me on it's own.

Many people have told me, that they do indeed trust their power, but I can almost immediately tell that what they are saying are still the words of someone who doesn't. We all do this. We play stupid, we ignore the obvious, we tell ourselves lies, and then we try to get others to agree with us to justify it. Then, we feel sorry for ourselves to complete the circle.

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

As I said, I know it is pointless.

It's not pointless. As we evolve from newbies, we ALL realize that techniques are just the training wheels. To get us thinking and doing the right things. We all know, that intent, excitement and awareness are the things that will help us getiing lucid the most. But that is advanced technique. And everybody has to realize that on their own.

We can't just tell people "believe and really, really want to have a LD". It doesn't work like that from the beginning.

You are taking it to the extreme. You are telling us to skip the beginners techniques and efforts and jump straight to the advanced thinking. But why? Everybody has to learn from the basics and build up on that. I don't see anything wrong with that. Have you read our thereads, when we tell members to start out with basic, simple technique and after tehy get a feel for lucid dreaming and the process, to adjust it to their needs? That later they may not need techniques per se? But again, this is something people need to realize on their own.

Also, what works for one person, may not work for the other one. So in this sence, we are more open minded than you are. We are giving people freedom to chose what works for them. Just because something works for me, I'm not going to push it on everybody else, nor I'm going to belittle them for it. Everybody is different. Accept it.

Originally Posted by gab

It's not pointless. As we evolve from newbies, we ALL realize that techniques are just the training wheels. To get us thinking and doing the right things. We all know, that intent, excitement and awareness are the things that will help us getiing lucid the most. But that is advanced technique. And everybody has to realize that on their own.

We can't just tell people "believe and really, really want to have a LD". It doesn't work like that from the beginning.

You are taking it to the extreme. You are telling us to skip the beginners techniques and efforts and jump straight to the advanced thinking. But why? Everybody has to learn from the basics and build up on that. I don't see anything wrong with that. Have you read our thereads, when we tell members to start out with basic, simple technique and after tehy get a feel for lucid dreaming and the process, to adjust it to their needs? That later they may not need techniques per se? But again, this is something people need to realize on their own.

Also, what works for one person, may not work for the other one. So in this sence, we are more open minded than you are. We are giving people freedom to chose what works for them. Just because something works for me, I'm not going to push it on everybody else, nor I'm going to belittle them for it. Everybody is different. Accept it.

It's fine, I do not know anything. Do not listen to a word I say.
It might sound like I know what I'm talking about, but really, I don't.
I feel that in the end, nobody knows what they are really talking about. We're all alone, and scared.
At least I am, there is no way I can know if that is the case for others. So take your own path, don't let me tell you that you can't do something. You are all amazing, and you all have what it takes.

Not to sound elitist or something, but this is what separates some natural lucid dreamers and veteran lucid dreamers....People like SilverBullet just "do it", without thinking, and they assume it's so easy for everyone that we must be depressed or not motivated for not having them. People like BrandonBoss (just one among many people who's progress I admire around here, another great example would be Sageous/Hukif/many many more that deserve to be included) are lucid because they had to work hard for years in order to achieve regular lucidity.

No offense, but natural lucid dreamers don't have any credit regarding lessons on how hard or easy lucidity is in my opinion, it's like a fish saying how easy it is to breathe underwater.

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

You are making it much more complicated that it really is.

Words are fun to play with and all, but ultimately they do not help us in the realm of dreams.

As I said, I know it is pointless.

You might think that experimenting, and testing with all kinds of different techniques is the important part, but it is not. Using your intent is very simple, so in my opinion it is best to keep it that way.
Being convinced that you have the power to make it happen is all you really need. You do not need experience to do that. Infact, experience with methods can make your doubts worse. I was convinced I had the power to lucid dream regardless of anything. I barely had any experience, but when I let go and trusted my power it came to me on it's own.

Many people have told me, that they do indeed trust their power, but I can almost immediately tell that what they are saying are still the words of someone who doesn't. We all do this. We play stupid, we ignore the obvious, we tell ourselves lies, and then we try to get others to agree with us to justify it. Then, we feel sorry for ourselves to complete the circle.

Over 1000... 2 years past me... I have 370. 310 this year X 2 = 620 +370 = 990... if I don't get any better in the next two years, and I have been constantly been getting better, so I doubt that. So whatever I am doing is pretty darn good. The only thing that I need in order to stay consistent is to keep a consistent sleep schedule. The only thing that I have seen that makes a consistent lucid dreamer is consistently trying and giving it their all. Not just saying that they are trying. I have talked to a million people

I know that you feel like you are enlightened or have the Holy Grail, and that all of us are stupid for not listening to you. You aren't mad because you can't help us. You are mad because we aren't freaking out because of your amazing discovery. Honestly, I think that your other thread was a good technique that helped out.

The biggest problem we all have is that you are saying that it isn't intent, it is honestly just straight up subconscious expectation. 100% knowing that you are going to LD. I believe that it could work, and that it is working for you. The problem is that people cant just simply believe that. It is impossible to change your belief without something to base that belief on, and that is why it won't work for everyone.

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

You are making it much more complicated that it really is.

Translation: Because others have stated that your philosophy is generic and naive at best, you’re proceeding to sham arguments to sustain your ad hoc claims over “you are or you aren’t.” Nobody is making this complicated, and considering you seem to have over 1,000 lucid dreams under your belt, something like this shouldn’t be overly complicated to fathom in the first place.

Unless of course those lucid dreams were as lackluster as your philosophy for you to conjecture that this discussion is complicated. Or maybe it’s something else entirely.

Words are fun to play with and all, but ultimately they do not help us in the realm of dreams.

This is non-sequential to whatever it is you’re trying to get at here. Who said anything about words and how they relate to comprehending the realm of dreams?

It’s completely understandable that there sometimes can’t be enough words to describe an experience in a dream, and obviously those moments are limited through nonverbal means of conceptualizing them, but what does your statement here have to do with anything?

You might think that experimenting, and testing with all kinds of different techniques is the important part, but it is not. Using your intent is very simple, so in my opinion it is best to keep it that way.

Intent is pretty simple given how there would be psychological predispositions for self-actualization and other human drives, but bringing up this obvious fact is irrelevant in supporting your disposition that experimentation isn’t needed.

It’s only adding on to how you feel that a person not learning how to use retrospect in their previous lucid attempts to formulate ways to improve on that isn’t needed because intent is the dues ex machina everyone needs to solve those menial doubts and simple trial and error?

Maybe you had a bad reading comprehension, or I probably should just use middle school logic here, but I already stated experimentation is one of many aspects to be used in tandem with intent that can be useful.

Infact, experience with methods can make your doubts worse. I was convinced I had the power to lucid dream regardless of anything. I barely had any experience, but when I let go and trusted my power it came to me on it's own.

Experience with methods can make your doubts worse? That’s only if the individual is incapable of using a simple cognitive ability to analyze from those experiences to improve, or it’s just the same unintelligible equivocation you’ve presented throughout this whole thread.

I understand the whole “power comes from within,” but this doesn’t distract the fact that you feel that people would be too incompetent to realize their own mistakes from experiences. This also doesn’t sustain any validity in your OP whatsoever. All it’s really saying is that all attempts for being proficient in techniques to develop skill leads to doubt.

That’s negative front-loading, and is counterproductive in your aim to cause some uplifting overtone for newcomers.

Many people have told me, that they do indeed trust their power, but I can almost immediately tell that what they are saying are still the words of someone who doesn't.

You’re seriously utilizing an imaginative argumentum ad populum to sustain your delusions of grandeur that those people haven’t reached the same pinnacle or paradigm shift required (that you seem to only have) to truly embody those same words?

This only adds to that same unintelligible equivocation you’re constantly avoiding to acknowledge. Because I can easily ask you:

- What do you feel would have that individual capable enough to truly understand the meaning behind those words that you feel they don’t really know to the fullest?


The only pragmatic way for you to actually get yourself out of this is that your same experience with all those thousands of lucid dreams would be necessary in order to understand that intent is king right? And because you’ve presented in your previous post that experiences with other techniques is unnecessary and inconsistent, you’re ultimately providing an impasse logic here. That is why the whole thread in general is futile and only creates those same menial doubts you’re so inclined to believe that garnering experience with techniques and such will lead to.

We play stupid, we ignore the obvious, we tell ourselves lies, and then we try to get others to agree with us to justify it. Then, we feel sorry for ourselves to complete the circle.

Right, confirmation bias along with denial and ending it all up into making detached justifications to see things in a new light. That's something most newcomers may be attached to prevent themselves from giving up. It's good for perseverance, but some people just don't know how to bend that ideology a bit for long-term before they snap completely. Even with that, they would only to come up with a revelation at some point to bring more solace and learning through what they deemed as a failure. You honestly think that just intent magically gives them that realization?

And I’m wondering if you’re aware that what you’re saying (with intent only being needed) would require the individual to get experience with trial and error to reach that realization and to truly have authority to declare those same words you feel they’re not ready to state. But don’t worry about that, since you think no one needs experience with other attributes for developing unconscious competence with knowing when one is dreaming.

Just go with the western philosophies of finding power from within, and suddenly it’s more consistent instead of using that in tandem with actually going through trial and error, and using retrospect to progressively improve is what you’re getting at here.

Since that seems the case, you’re giving pseudo-intellectualism here. But I guess if those of words of pretense is enough to make people feel better, then you're just causing a self-fulfilling prophecy that will backfire on their end. They'll feel like they can actually do it without acknowledging they need to develop experiential learning to sustain that. That's a cognitive dissonance just waiting to happen.

Why is "asking how" a so-called monumental waste? Have you ever considered that people enjoy trying out methods, asking questions, finding answers and practicing things? If you can have many LDs just with a strong intent... then keep going - nobody will hinder you, but I honestly prefer using methods not only because I can see it working but much more because I think it is a fun thing to do.

Thank you for doing the ranting part Linkzelda - I was considering it, but was too lazy!
What this all looks like is indeed him, wanting to be admired by people, whom he deems inferior - namely everybody.
And trying for this - besides what you pointed out - he repeatedly comes with pseudo-magnanimous "I feel sorry for you" or "sorry to disappoint you" - after nobody had actually asked him anything, or expected anything - or "sorry if I did hurt you" - after not ever having come close to the ability to hurt anybody. Lofty claims - and delusions of grandeur as the backdrop. But I guess, meanwhile we have caused some discomfort in his superior sadness..

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

You are making it much more complicated that it really is.

Words are fun to play with and all, but ultimately they do not help us in the realm of dreams.

As I said, I know it is pointless.

You might think that experimenting, and testing with all kinds of different techniques is the important part, but it is not. Using your intent is very simple, so in my opinion it is best to keep it that way.
Being convinced that you have the power to make it happen is all you really need. You do not need experience to do that. Infact, experience with methods can make your doubts worse. ...

I am pretty convinced, that your LDs are also very simple - but I might be mistaken.
I am sure though, that you have not discovered the full potential of LD with your approach (yet).
You might come up with some of it on your own - several thousand LDs and some later.
Words - other people can help a lot - and experimentation with techniques is a lot of fun and productive.
See below for an excellent, recent counter-example.

Originally Posted by benni

Why is "asking how" a so-called monumental waste? Have you ever considered that people enjoy trying out methods, asking questions, finding answers and practising things? If you can have many LDs just with a strong intent... then keep going - nobody will hinder you, but I honestly prefer using methods not only because I can see it working but much more because I think it is a fun thing to do.

Oh yes!!
Thank you for saying this, benni!
Because there is so much fun to be had by experimenting with different aspects of dream-control for example.
You could just lucid dream and go with the flow - sure - but there is so much more, which is possible.
I wouldn´t even have come up with a project like some of these things, like splitting point of view over many entities and have simultaneous individual input from all of them.

There are easy tricks - and then there are situations where the old tricks don´t work.
Directly from my experience - I can do a little basic summoning quite nicely - in the sense of letting something or someone appear from out of sight - behind a corner..
That is a trick already - very helpful - not my idea!

Last LD I spent quite some time with trying to change something into something completely other.

What I did was really intently looking at things - and they kept getting clearer, more detailed - but wouldn´t change.
I finally managed to change something by shortly turning away and imagining the transformation behind me. Edit: actually I imagined somebody exchanging things - more complicated - but that what I came up with.
I came up with the project in the first place, because of being inspired by the competition thread, which has changing something/a DC as an option for special task - another great thing to take from a forum like this.

To change in direct sight didn´t work - but not because I doubted, I can do that - but because an understanding was missing - and because of that the technique as well.
I didn´t know/expect to not be able to - all other things, I tried up to now (not many, for sure..) worked - or at least partly.

Meanwhile - I have gotten extremely insightful advice from Sivason, how to free my mind from the preconception, that the visual field in a dream behaves like the visual field of normal reality.
And it makes sense - my summoning is always from out of sight - not so hard - I do not have to override the seeming physical reality of what my dream-eyes are seeing - imagining something simply works, because "it is allowed" after normal physics.

He recommended me a starting point of first blurring a surface with your dream-finger, imagining it was a wet oil-painting.
And go from there - see this thread:
http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...rect-view.html
There is also a couple of wonderful posts from LouaiB where she tells me about her way of meditating - and I feel inspired and will try it out tomorrow - only because soon I have visitors, otherwise later I would! Anotherdreamer also helped and reminded me of a fascinating tutorial as well.

My life would in general be so much poorer, if I did not have communication and exchange of ideas with others.
How can one doubt that??

I find the changing business is a great example for how beneficial asking others for advice is.
First of all - I finally have an idea how to meditate - connected to LD, not hard, not restricted or frustrating like "classical sitting" for beginners.
Secondly - I really can not wait for my next LD and do the blurring and visual field deconstruction a la Sivason!!
Really excited about that - nice spill-over into the intent department - and - I am convinced I can do it by the way..wink.gif

Okay, I came back and re-read the OP more carefully (albeit only skimmed the rest of the thread), and while I'm still on the standpoint that confidence is one of the most, if not the most, important factor for lucid dreaming, and I'm undecided on the theory that actual methods (like WILD, MILD, etc.) are only for the 'vote of confidence' rather than actually influence lucid dreams, there is something I need to say about the OP:

You have your own method, called "just do it." That's a method by itself. It's great that it works for you, but that may not work for everyone else. Similarly, you can't invalidate the success of other methods. I have natural lucid dreams. I get it. Sometimes I just get lucid dreams, and that's cool, albeit sometimes this doesn't work. So I also do WILDs sometimes. Why? Because it works. I've found success in the method. I've also found usually with WILDs the dream is more vivid, but that's irrelevant. As for other methods? Sometimes I struggle with MILD. There's some others I've tried (VILD, FILD, etc.) that just don't work for me. That's okay. I still lucid dream at the end of the day (or, night). That's what we're aiming for, right?

I think what you're failing to understand here is two things:
-Some methods work for some and don't work for others. You're telling us to follow your method because others only give you the confidence you need.
-What method we use is, really, not that important.

Because, the thing is, all of us here, collectively on DV, are aiming to lucid dream (Well, more like 99.8% of us, with the occasional newbie like "oh woah man this site's 'bout dreams I'm gon' join"). How we get there is irrelevant. Some will prefer DEILD, others MILD, moreso others your "just do it" method. That's okay. We're all wired a different way, sometimes some methods work better than others.

Think of it this way: say in a lucid dream you want to kill a dream character. Some people, not wanting to waste too much time, can see them plop down right before their eyes with no support needed. Others may feel creative and make the moon fall on them. Moreso others may not be advanced in dream control yet, and so will whip a gun out of their pocket and shoot them. Will you judge them for their chosen methods? At the end of the day (or, well, night), all three methods have led to success in killing the DC.

My point here is that I feel as if (as inferred by calling others cowards, or saying others don't believe in themselves) you think your method (and yes, it is a method, as it is what you do to induce lucid dreams) is the best one. That's wrong. All methods are as good and valid as all others if they lead to success in at least one person in having a lucid dream. On top of that, you have no right to judge others for using a different method. We're not here to be told what the "best" method is and follow that method. We're here to lucid dream. Does it matter how we get there? Not at all.

I do feel the OP was highly motivational and can help some get that boost of confidence they need to continue their lucid dreaming journey. I feel some, beginners especially, can lose confidence and motivation easily and therefore not have lucid dreams at all; confidence is most definitely important. It's also wonderful that you've found success in this 'method' yourself, keep doing it.

However, I simply feel you presented your method in the wrong way, sir.

(Apologies if I strayed a little off-topic from the main discussion.)

Originally Posted by benni

Why is "asking how" a so-called monumental waste? Have you ever considered that people enjoy trying out methods, asking questions, finding answers and practicing things? If you can have many LDs just with a strong intent... then keep going - nobody will hinder you, but I honestly prefer using methods not only because I can see it working but much more because I think it is a fun thing to do.

I agree 100%. For many of us the journey is same important and FUN as the destination is.

I personally think that this kind of thread is a good advice for people who go in constant loops of a 'cycle' from getting multiple LDs at first days, but then abruptly go into dry spell for weeks.

I don't think this is a method. It's not some sort of DILD or WILD or MILD. I think it's fundamental mindset that you have to have to be lucid in general. It's not a technique. We all think that we have it but we actually don't if we are going in that loop. LDing is based on personal experience, so yes some methods work for certain people and don't work for some people, but there are principles that apply to everyone.

In the first year of practicing LDing for me was a lot of struggle. I'd get stressed, frustrated, get expectations and doubts and still try to find 'how to's' in the forum, ask questions. At first it would get better, having few LDs sparked, but then I'd go into dry spell again thinking 'why? why this again?'

After lots of failures I realized that I limited myself too much with 'false beliefs' from others' mumbo jumbo techniques. I realized that even though you know how to do the techniques, without the basic mindset of 'knowing that you can be the one' you will always go in that loop. So either be obsessed with tutorials and constantly think about getting LDs going in those loops again, or be free of doubts, frustration, expectations and get LDs without any thought, without going in those loops. I chose the latter.

I respect DVers who posted great tutorials, they really helped me a lot, but the failures and struggles taught me deep into my bones that I should throw away the doubts first. I absolutely do not want to repeat the loops again. So the only way to get out of the loop is to be confident and throw away the doubts and thoughts. This is the key to consistent LDs.

Easy as it sounds, that's what we would all think. It's hard realistically, to throw away the doubts in the first place. But saying that it is hard and advanced for us, that makes it more hard and advanced.

Not to mean that DV is not helpful, but if I never visited DV and practiced LDing on my own, I think I would have been a natural right now.

So many people think LD as an item. Your goal is not to get a LD, is to get high awareness in both real and dream life so LD is just a side-effect of it. If you keep thinking about techniques that will only guide you to LDs, without practicing raising awareness, you're doing something wrong.

I just think that this kind of concept takes time to understand fully. And I'm not jealous of any natural who became natural in their young age after some certain trigger that made them to practice being lucid. They didn't read any tutorials but they managed to get consistent LDs on their own. How? There's no how. They just did it. With patience.

Think sometimes we focus too much on "motivation". Motivation should not be addressed as number 1 tool for anything, because naturally it's already present in anything you want to achieve in your life. It's like saying "motivation is the most important thing to get a job"; "motivation is the most important thing to be good at math"; "motivation is the most important thing to score a goal"; "motivation is the most important thing to cook". It's not.

It's already established that you will perform certain cognitive tasks better than other person if you're applying the best methods, whether you are motivated or not. Sure performance increases in the face of a positive stimulus when comparing to a neutral/negative one, but people tend to overestimate that impact, and then we have silly ideas showing up like the law of attraction.

Simple concepts for lucid dreaming:

- It takes time. A very long time to become good at.
- It's repetitive: you can do some task variation, but ultimately you're still be improving memory, developing awareness, and building expectation.
- Scientists still don't know exactly the best way to induce lucidity on a regular basis. We know that techniques like MILD/Reality checks/WILD/etc work, and we know that all of them are based on the same principles (mentioned on the point above). As to what's exactly the best way to develop those factors, no one knows (yet).

Motivation is only relevant on the part of "performing lucid dreaming practices", not lucid dreaming induction itself. If that was the case, people with high frequency would experience major fluctuations depending on their mood. Not to mention that a deep ingrained habit like a reality check that pops up regularly in your dreams won't stop happening because you don't feel like lucid dreaming.

If you want to be successful as a lucid dreamer (regardless of method, except if you're using some clearly bad techniques), then direct most of your effort on psychology of habit and goal-achievement, so your can train your brain to the pattern of self-questioning and awareness (along with improved memory).
Motivation is a bonus, not a tool: there will be times where you won't be able to rely on it, and it's exhausting if you're trying to become a good lucid dreamer purely on your willpower (which get's drained the more you use it!). For anyone who hasn't realized, this is precisely the reason we advice people not to "overthink" when trying to achieve lucid dreams: sure it can get your a lucid, but it's the long and hard journey of creating the habit that will be responsible for your success.

Now - I found something interesting - SilverBullet - you are able to flesh out your approach!
I agree with Windhover - it is not a method like DILD DEILD or WILD tutorials - but a method - with steps and tips - none the less.
The one, with which you obviously had success in 2011 - and it sounds a lot like what you still propose.
Just that now you seem to have forgotten about these successes, which gave you the motivation to share your approach and to put up a tutorial for explaining this approach, and thus help along others.
To maybe get to where you are now..

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

(posted again due to the website data loss)

So, after much trail and error in my learning process about lucid dreaming I've come up with a much better thread than my last. This should help you with how to lucid dream the same way naturals lucid dream.

Now, I'm going to tell you that If you are the lazy kind of person who doesn't want to do reality checks, take supplements, watch for dream signs, use a dream journal, or meditate, then this technique is perfect for you. Because I don't do ANY of that stuff, and look at my lucid dream count. I started September 2010. I started like most people here, desperately wanting to lucid dream but still not even being able to remember my dreams. I started completely from scratch. Now, lets get to business. I'll try to do this in steps:

Step 1: First, you need to get rid of the idea that lucid dreaming is hard. Because it's actually VERY easy. The only thing stopping you from lucid dreaming is you. I don't like that fact that most people on this website spread the idea that lucid dreaming is hard, it's like a disease. Stop spreading it.

Step 2(this step is most important): FEEL that you were born a natural lucid dreaming master. That you are a Lucid dreamer with every cell in your body, like it's your destiny to lucid dream! Imagine that you have already attained your goal. Your subconscious doesn't know the difference between what you are imagining and what is happening.

Step 3: Do things as if you already have the "becoming aware in a dream" part down. Think about what you want to do once you are in a lucid dream. It can be anything. One good one is looking at your hands in a dream. Try to look at your hands once you are in a dream. You don't need to make a habit of looking at your hands in daily life. Just do it when you are in a dream. It may sound like this makes no sense, but it works.

Step 4(optional, but recommended): If you are lucid and the dream starts fading, remember to not move and don't open your eyes when you when you wake up. Then you can re-enter a dream quickly. You can do this many times and get many lucids. You can try this same thing with waking from non-lucid sleep, but I find it easier when you are lucid in the first place.

The reason why there isn't that many steps is because lucid dreaming is easy.
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to do it.

You can use these steps in combination with any technique you want, or no techniques at all. You can also use it for what kind of lucid you want.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TIPS:
Now here are some important tips for you, I'm not putting them in steps because It's not necessarily in order:

*Do not stress out about lucid dreaming, if you don't have a lucid dream don't let it bring you down. Be strong and keep going.

*You don't need a dream journal. But keep one if you want.
I'm not telling you to NOT keep one.

*I usually use this in combination with WBTB and the modification of WILD, which works best for me, try different things and find what works best for you.

*The surroundings of the room you sleep in can greatly effect your dreams. Did you know that if you sleep in a cold room you are more likely to get nightmares? Sleep in a warm room and you're more likely to get good dreams. The light level and smell of your room also effect dreams greatly. Right now there are smells that you don't even consciously notice but are currently effecting your mood and state of mind. And usually for me if I sleep with my light off and wake up in a dream then my dream will also be dark and if its on then my dream is brighter. That's just me though. Just make yourself comfortable.

*If WBTBs work better for you then you can use an alarm to wake you up or you can trust yourself to wake up at a certain time. Like I said, you can combine this technique with many other techniques.

*Don't try so hard. You need to trust your subconscious to do this.

*Being able to sleep is your first priority. So don't get too excited or you won't even be able to fall asleep.

*I strongly advise you read Carlos Castaneda's "The Art of Dreaming" book if you already haven't. If it weren't for that book I wouldn't be the lucid dreamer I am now.

*Every little detail I've put in this tutorial is very important.

*Don't talk about it just DO IT.

Why deny that you did develop and follow a method with steps and tips - and that like this - you got into the position you are in right now?
Do you feel, nobody understood the above in your sense, maybe?
It is a good read - I like it - much better than your attitude these days!
You have also not fallen from the heavens as the very proficient LDer you are now - and congratulation - by something, which cannot be explained further - that´s my impression.

Thanks for finding this Steph! Interesting that there are some parallels here and with what I've been thinking about fairly recently.

Especially step #1. I've started recently having the thought that lucid dreaming is really easy. All you have to do is become aware in your dreams! So I feel an affinity to this notion.

Step #2 is the "acting" technique, and there are posts around about how it is useful for breaking dry spells. I have tried it a few times but have not made a habit of it. Doing it constantly is the "new" part here, I think. Definitely worth examining and trying out!

BrandonBoss has built a great frequency based a great deal on positive subconscious expectation (which can really skyrocket once your frequency increases into a nice feedback system delivering more LDs, which creates more positive expectation, creating more LDs, etc.), and I think #2 is this at its root.

edit: what modification of WILD, in that quoted message? If all the OP's LDs come from WILDs then...hmmm, I wonder about the actual efficacy of this approach. Now if they were DILDs, that would be a much stronger testimony. Also interesting that WBTB is mentioned here as well.

My brother is the same thing. He barely trains and has a lot of LDs, much more than I do, and I train 1000% more than him.
It's time to change the attitude. ATTITUDE ADJUSTMENT!!
It's really essential to make your subconscious mind believe that you can lucid dream. Techniques are surely important to increase your ability to realize your dreaming, and the emotional factors(confidence, motivation, intent, passion,etc.) are important to make your subconscious believe you can! You can surely have LDs by training a lot, but it seems that you need to have your subconscious believe you can. Why? what is the role of the subconscious in the ability to LD?
Seriously, someone answer me!
I'm gonna post a thread