Thread: You are or aren't

I honestly don't know why are you angry at us.

Does lucid dreaming come so naturally to you, that you can't even comprehend, how somebody can't do it same, effortless way as you can?

That's the same, as if a math or arts or sports genius would call everybody who is not at their level stupid. Somebody is born with it, somebody doesn't realize his pottential untill he starts learning or training, and somebody can try his darndest...

Well guess what, just because you are a natural, that doesn't make rest of us any less than you are. We are dedicated, practicing, enthusiastic, excited, working on recall, reading everything we can get our hands on, tutorials and books, we communicate to share our knowledge, and we share this bond, that you will perhaps never understand. Because you never had to lift a finger for it. To be honest, I wouldn't wanna be ya. I prefer to work for my rewards. You probably not even realizing that what you have is a reward, and you may not value and appreciate it as much as we do.

Another difference between us and you is, that we are happy for our success and for everybody elses success. When we figure something out, we rush here and post in hope, that it will help someone else as well. When someone asks a question, we are happy to reply to the best of our abilities. We have no secrets. What I know, everybody else knows, because I have posted it someplace. And what I don't know, I find in posts of others.

I'm sad to say, that from your post, I have learned nothing.

Originally Posted by gab

I honestly don't know why are you angry at us.

Does lucid dreaming come so naturally to you, that you can't even comprehend, how somebody can't do it same, effortless way as you can?

That's the same, as if a math or arts or sports genius would call everybody who is not at their level stupid. Somebody is born with it, somebody doesn't realize his pottential untill he starts learning or training, and somebody can try his darndest...

Well guess what, just because you are a natural, that doesn't make rest of us any less than you are. We are dedicated, practicing, enthusiastic, excited, working on recall, reading everything we can get our hands on, tutorials and books, we communicate to share our knowledge, and we share this bond, that you will perhaps never understand. Because you never had to lift a finger for it. To be honest, I wouldn't wanna be ya. I prefer to work for my rewards. You probably not even realizing that what you have is a reward, and you may not value and appreciate it as much as we do.

Another difference between us and you is, that we are happy for our success and for everybody elses success. When we figure something out, we rush here and post in hope, that it will help someone else as well. When someone asks a question, we are happy to reply to the best of our abilities. We have no secrets. What I know, everybody else knows, because I have posted it someplace. And what I don't know, I find in posts of others.

I'm sad to say, that from your post, I have learned nothing.

I'm frustrated.
It is my idiotic indulgence to try to help any of you, yet I do it anyway because I feel sorry for you. I used to be where you all were. I tryed my very best without any fruition. When I realized the answer was staring me in the face the entire time, I felt a great sadness for humanity. You see, It's not just about lucid dreaming. It's about life. I feel so alone the deeper I get into this, I get bottled up. I want to help others out of pointless frustration, even though I know, that no matter what I do, I can't do anything. I can only point in the direction of what you already see, but completely ignore. I am deeply sorry if I hurt any of you.

Originally Posted by StephL

Well said gab!
I can see how intent and willpower are two different things - one taking loads of energy to overcome inner drives - the other a re-programming of these drives by intentional thinking.
Just - I really wonder, how far this can carry you.
I mean - if I could just set intent on LD - I would be lucid at least once a night.
Maybe not more to not disrupt whatever normal dreams have to contribute to my mental health - but surely one or two per every night anyway.
And I can not get rid of my suspicion concerning your frequency of LD being much lower than that.
And the suspicion that you do not have full dream-control either.

Once more:
What you did answer to - and with yes - were these two:

Do you remember your lucid goals from waking life - whatever they are? Yes.
Can you realize them? Yes.

You also clarified that you use pure intent without will-power.



Okay - what about the others?
These are ones, which can not be answered by yes or no - here we go again:

1.) When was your first LD?
2.) How many LDs per night?
3.) How long are your lucids?
4.) What was your greatest lucid control feature up to now?


After all - you have opened a thread seemingly with the intention of freeing those who listen to you from the boundaries of doubt and method - to advertise your approach actually.
So - wouldn´t it be fair to report about your successes in detail?

You have answered my questions partly - which is better than nothing, SilverBullet - but please - let us know more.

Besides - how come you behave, as if you yourself had a new guide on how to LD - while despising it otherwise to give such.
Stetting an unbending, permanently* installed intent is a method also - and actually you could tell us exactly how you did that.
*oh wait - is it permanently installed/do you LD every night?

Waiting for answers 1-4 with high expectations of you being "enough of a man" to still my curiosity!
You have a right to such an opinion as a beginner as well of course - just if - the tone might be not chosen wisely..

My first ld that I can remember was around the first month i joined deamviews. September, if I remember correctly.
Per night I can have anywhere from 0 to 10 lucid dreams. It depends on how much energy and time I have on my hands. The same with the length of my lucids.

My greatest control in my dreams is to be able to wake up into another dream at will.

Intent is something that is extremely abstract yet infinitely simple. It is not done with thought. It is done with our very beings.

My above post is meant as reaction to the answer you gave me directly - again - impressive and thank you.
But maybe I can help you, even.

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

I'm frustrated.
It is my idiotic indulgence to try to help any of you, yet I do it anyway because I feel sorry for you.

I used to be where you all were. I tryed my very best without any fruition.

When I realized the answer was staring me in the face the entire time, I felt a great sadness for humanity.
You see, It's not just about lucid dreaming.
It's about life.
I feel so alone the deeper I get into this, I get bottled up.
I want to help others out of pointless frustration, even though I know, that no matter what I do, I can't do anything.

I can only point in the direction of what you already see, but completely ignore. I am deeply sorry if I hurt any of you.

How could you hurt anyone with what you said? You caused some aversive, sceptical reactions - that is not hurting somebody.
And how can you say, we on here completely ignore, what you - and indeed we as well - already see?

You know - here on dreamviews - there is not much need for feeling sorry for people who do - for example - not lucid dream.
We all work on it - and most of us do dream lucidly.
You surely know this?
You have also been progressing and going through a personal development to where you are - maybe you underestimate the role, some earlier crutches played in that.
Since you did not go through from childhood LDing to now.
And many of the answers to your thread - especially on the first page - give you a pure positive feedback without critical questions.

I am absolutely sure, that anybody you ask on here, is also of the opinion, that it is best to throw away your doubts, believe in yourself and your abilities, and that you can use them.
And actually do it.

Reaching farther than that - but that is all you are on about - reaching farther - opinions divide - but surely not on what you bring up.
The disagreement stems from you seemingly arrogantly shaking your head up front about everybody, who starts riding the bike with training-wheels - to then happily throw them away - like any child does. Or not - up to everybody themselves - but most will, I am sure.

You are not alone at all - especially not on here!
Switch from sadness to compassion and acceptance of yourself and others, maybe?
Just take a bit more care, not to judge too fast.


Oh - and edit: you might just as well be indeed able to help people - like so many other people on DV help others.
Maybe just a bit of a fleshing out of your mindset and outlook could be very inspirational for some!

Originally Posted by StephL

My above post is meant as reaction to the answer you gave me directly - again - impressive and thank you.
But maybe I can help you, even.



How could you hurt anyone with what you said? You caused some aversive, sceptical reactions - that is not hurting somebody.
And how can you say, we on here completely ignore, what you - and indeed we as well - already see?

You know - here on dreamviews - there is not much need for feeling sorry for people who do - for example - not lucid dream.
We all work on it - and most of us do dream lucidly.
You surely know this?
And many of the answers to your thread - especially on the first page - give you a pure positive feedback without critical questions.

I am absolutely sure, that anybody you ask on here, is of the opinion, that it is best to best throw away your doubts, believe in yourself and your abilities, and that you can use them.
And actually do it.

Reaching farther than that - but that is all you are on about - reaching farther - opinions divide - but surely not on what you bring up.
The disagreement stems from you seemingly arrogantly shaking your head up front about everybody, who starts riding the bike with training-wheels - to then happily throw them away - like any child does. Or not - up to everybody themselves - but most will, I am sure.

You are not alone at all - especially not on here!
Switch from sadness to compassion and acceptance of yourself and others, maybe?
Just take a bit more care, not to judge too fast.


Oh - and edit: you might just as well be indeed able to help people - like so many other people on DV help others.
Maybe just a bit of a fleshing out of your mindset and outlook could be very inspirational for some!

It's all talk, they agree, but those agreements are entirely empty. They talk but do not act.
It is scary and sickening what this implies.

I am aware that many of you dream lucidly, but to do it with methods always produces inconsistent results, and they all wonder why.

Intent is to be used, not talked about.
It is impossible to "flesh it out"

This thread reminds me of when I was really naïve when it came to lucid dreaming. If this thread was created during my initial stages of coming to this site, it would be a nice supplementary and uplifting post on OP’s end, but looking at it now, this isn’t really anything surprising.

Intent, willpower, or whatever terminology people want to utilize, merely focusing on building a conceptual framework into thinking you’re a natural lucid dreamer is only a supplement. It doesn’t mean the individual is absolved from accumulating an experiential totality with remembering their dreams and recording them.

Nor does it absolve that individual from finding methods to augment their cognition and metacognition so their minds can easily make the connections needed towards gaining unconscious competence in knowing that they’re dreaming.

Whether that person is “talented,” or just has certain factors (e.g. congenital, cognitive, or metacognitive attributes) that can help them develop a natural awareness of the dream state, garnering an experiential totality will most likely override the self-fulfilling prophecies that many newcomers end up being stuck countless of times. (Surprise, Surprise, constant practice to be consistent with that behavior of optimism eventually becomes true!)

I would be just like any newcomer back then--going through developing predispositions that I’m the “best” lucid dreamer I could possibly be. Sometimes when a person tries to persevere and develop a strong willpower, it can prevent them from learning how to appreciate their failures in attempting lucidity.

They prefer to close their eyes and will away their flaws from existence to sustain that delusions of grandeur disposition that will backfire on them if they don’t accept the fact that developing skills in relation to lucid dreaming will take some time despite of whatever competencies the person has stacked beforehand. We're creatures of habit, and learning how to adjust accordingly without having past ideologies/critical voice/conceptual frameworks/etc. getting in the way and potentially leading to cognitive dissonance takes time. You don't just "will it" into your perception...it may happen by chance, but only by chance.

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

I am aware that many of you dream lucidly, but to do it with methods always produces inconsistent results, and they all wonder why.

Those methods are just aids to develop the meta-cognitive ability for natural lucidity. I can empathize for you that any method has less efficacy if there’s not intent instilled with it (i.e. reality checking like a broken record), but you can’t produce this impasse logic that there’s no need for people to practice to reach some level of competence into this. Especially since your rudimentary ideology can be just as inconsistent as any other disposition the individual chooses to develop.

Intent is to be used, not talked about.
It is impossible to "flesh it out"

Used as a supplement along with other factors any dreamer wants to incorporate in their quotidian lifestyle. If you're trying to give the impression that you're able to vicariously empathize for newcomers who are trying to get on your path in being a natural lucid dreamer, you'd at least acknowledge that practice and developing experience, discipline, and such contributes into reaching that. Especially since the drive for becoming better at lucidity is something progressive, not something that's sustained with an impasse logic to not utilize methods to one's advantage.


It's one thing to find ways to learn how to resolve cognitive dissonance to get rid of those menial doubts people face when attempting lucid dreaming. But it's a completely different matter when you feel as if you're informing newcomers with this, but you're only adding on to that delusions of grandeur that makes everyone think they can absolve themselves from accumulating experiential knowledge with other attributes other than just conceptual motivation.


If anything, the individual needs to get used to that experimentation stage (which is probably always going to be a progressive experimentation with consciousness exploration) before they truly can understand the logic behind, "you are or aren't." Hell, I could just pop in a random thread and state,

"Courage is the magic that turns dreams into reality"

And call it a day.


But I agree with others that maybe you should expound more on your philosophy here so this doesn't end up in unintelligible equivocation.

You are making it much more complicated that it really is.

Words are fun to play with and all, but ultimately they do not help us in the realm of dreams.

As I said, I know it is pointless.

You might think that experimenting, and testing with all kinds of different techniques is the important part, but it is not. Using your intent is very simple, so in my opinion it is best to keep it that way.
Being convinced that you have the power to make it happen is all you really need. You do not need experience to do that. Infact, experience with methods can make your doubts worse. I was convinced I had the power to lucid dream regardless of anything. I barely had any experience, but when I let go and trusted my power it came to me on it's own.

Many people have told me, that they do indeed trust their power, but I can almost immediately tell that what they are saying are still the words of someone who doesn't. We all do this. We play stupid, we ignore the obvious, we tell ourselves lies, and then we try to get others to agree with us to justify it. Then, we feel sorry for ourselves to complete the circle.

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

As I said, I know it is pointless.

It's not pointless. As we evolve from newbies, we ALL realize that techniques are just the training wheels. To get us thinking and doing the right things. We all know, that intent, excitement and awareness are the things that will help us getiing lucid the most. But that is advanced technique. And everybody has to realize that on their own.

We can't just tell people "believe and really, really want to have a LD". It doesn't work like that from the beginning.

You are taking it to the extreme. You are telling us to skip the beginners techniques and efforts and jump straight to the advanced thinking. But why? Everybody has to learn from the basics and build up on that. I don't see anything wrong with that. Have you read our thereads, when we tell members to start out with basic, simple technique and after tehy get a feel for lucid dreaming and the process, to adjust it to their needs? That later they may not need techniques per se? But again, this is something people need to realize on their own.

Also, what works for one person, may not work for the other one. So in this sence, we are more open minded than you are. We are giving people freedom to chose what works for them. Just because something works for me, I'm not going to push it on everybody else, nor I'm going to belittle them for it. Everybody is different. Accept it.

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

You are making it much more complicated that it really is.

Words are fun to play with and all, but ultimately they do not help us in the realm of dreams.

As I said, I know it is pointless.

You might think that experimenting, and testing with all kinds of different techniques is the important part, but it is not. Using your intent is very simple, so in my opinion it is best to keep it that way.
Being convinced that you have the power to make it happen is all you really need. You do not need experience to do that. Infact, experience with methods can make your doubts worse. I was convinced I had the power to lucid dream regardless of anything. I barely had any experience, but when I let go and trusted my power it came to me on it's own.

Many people have told me, that they do indeed trust their power, but I can almost immediately tell that what they are saying are still the words of someone who doesn't. We all do this. We play stupid, we ignore the obvious, we tell ourselves lies, and then we try to get others to agree with us to justify it. Then, we feel sorry for ourselves to complete the circle.

Over 1000... 2 years past me... I have 370. 310 this year X 2 = 620 +370 = 990... if I don't get any better in the next two years, and I have been constantly been getting better, so I doubt that. So whatever I am doing is pretty darn good. The only thing that I need in order to stay consistent is to keep a consistent sleep schedule. The only thing that I have seen that makes a consistent lucid dreamer is consistently trying and giving it their all. Not just saying that they are trying. I have talked to a million people

I know that you feel like you are enlightened or have the Holy Grail, and that all of us are stupid for not listening to you. You aren't mad because you can't help us. You are mad because we aren't freaking out because of your amazing discovery. Honestly, I think that your other thread was a good technique that helped out.

The biggest problem we all have is that you are saying that it isn't intent, it is honestly just straight up subconscious expectation. 100% knowing that you are going to LD. I believe that it could work, and that it is working for you. The problem is that people cant just simply believe that. It is impossible to change your belief without something to base that belief on, and that is why it won't work for everyone.

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

You are making it much more complicated that it really is.

Translation: Because others have stated that your philosophy is generic and naive at best, you’re proceeding to sham arguments to sustain your ad hoc claims over “you are or you aren’t.” Nobody is making this complicated, and considering you seem to have over 1,000 lucid dreams under your belt, something like this shouldn’t be overly complicated to fathom in the first place.

Unless of course those lucid dreams were as lackluster as your philosophy for you to conjecture that this discussion is complicated. Or maybe it’s something else entirely.

Words are fun to play with and all, but ultimately they do not help us in the realm of dreams.

This is non-sequential to whatever it is you’re trying to get at here. Who said anything about words and how they relate to comprehending the realm of dreams?

It’s completely understandable that there sometimes can’t be enough words to describe an experience in a dream, and obviously those moments are limited through nonverbal means of conceptualizing them, but what does your statement here have to do with anything?

You might think that experimenting, and testing with all kinds of different techniques is the important part, but it is not. Using your intent is very simple, so in my opinion it is best to keep it that way.

Intent is pretty simple given how there would be psychological predispositions for self-actualization and other human drives, but bringing up this obvious fact is irrelevant in supporting your disposition that experimentation isn’t needed.

It’s only adding on to how you feel that a person not learning how to use retrospect in their previous lucid attempts to formulate ways to improve on that isn’t needed because intent is the dues ex machina everyone needs to solve those menial doubts and simple trial and error?

Maybe you had a bad reading comprehension, or I probably should just use middle school logic here, but I already stated experimentation is one of many aspects to be used in tandem with intent that can be useful.

Infact, experience with methods can make your doubts worse. I was convinced I had the power to lucid dream regardless of anything. I barely had any experience, but when I let go and trusted my power it came to me on it's own.

Experience with methods can make your doubts worse? That’s only if the individual is incapable of using a simple cognitive ability to analyze from those experiences to improve, or it’s just the same unintelligible equivocation you’ve presented throughout this whole thread.

I understand the whole “power comes from within,” but this doesn’t distract the fact that you feel that people would be too incompetent to realize their own mistakes from experiences. This also doesn’t sustain any validity in your OP whatsoever. All it’s really saying is that all attempts for being proficient in techniques to develop skill leads to doubt.

That’s negative front-loading, and is counterproductive in your aim to cause some uplifting overtone for newcomers.

Many people have told me, that they do indeed trust their power, but I can almost immediately tell that what they are saying are still the words of someone who doesn't.

You’re seriously utilizing an imaginative argumentum ad populum to sustain your delusions of grandeur that those people haven’t reached the same pinnacle or paradigm shift required (that you seem to only have) to truly embody those same words?

This only adds to that same unintelligible equivocation you’re constantly avoiding to acknowledge. Because I can easily ask you:

- What do you feel would have that individual capable enough to truly understand the meaning behind those words that you feel they don’t really know to the fullest?


The only pragmatic way for you to actually get yourself out of this is that your same experience with all those thousands of lucid dreams would be necessary in order to understand that intent is king right? And because you’ve presented in your previous post that experiences with other techniques is unnecessary and inconsistent, you’re ultimately providing an impasse logic here. That is why the whole thread in general is futile and only creates those same menial doubts you’re so inclined to believe that garnering experience with techniques and such will lead to.

We play stupid, we ignore the obvious, we tell ourselves lies, and then we try to get others to agree with us to justify it. Then, we feel sorry for ourselves to complete the circle.

Right, confirmation bias along with denial and ending it all up into making detached justifications to see things in a new light. That's something most newcomers may be attached to prevent themselves from giving up. It's good for perseverance, but some people just don't know how to bend that ideology a bit for long-term before they snap completely. Even with that, they would only to come up with a revelation at some point to bring more solace and learning through what they deemed as a failure. You honestly think that just intent magically gives them that realization?

And I’m wondering if you’re aware that what you’re saying (with intent only being needed) would require the individual to get experience with trial and error to reach that realization and to truly have authority to declare those same words you feel they’re not ready to state. But don’t worry about that, since you think no one needs experience with other attributes for developing unconscious competence with knowing when one is dreaming.

Just go with the western philosophies of finding power from within, and suddenly it’s more consistent instead of using that in tandem with actually going through trial and error, and using retrospect to progressively improve is what you’re getting at here.

Since that seems the case, you’re giving pseudo-intellectualism here. But I guess if those of words of pretense is enough to make people feel better, then you're just causing a self-fulfilling prophecy that will backfire on their end. They'll feel like they can actually do it without acknowledging they need to develop experiential learning to sustain that. That's a cognitive dissonance just waiting to happen.