Thread: You are or aren't

That's a very good point.
This is quite clear from Stephen LaBerge's first experiences with lucid dreaming as a child, when he wanted to revisit a particular dream and actually managed to do it several times, just because he wanted to.
His mindset seemed to have been something like "that dream was cool, I'm gonna revisit it again!" without any "but..."-s or "how?"-s.

This reminds me a lot of myself, being a natural from an early age. I first worked on control as a way to fight back against constant horrible nightmares, but it was also something I just did for fun. I would do these things and experiment around with what I could/couldn't do, and push against my limitations. I didn't know any terms or lingo or how any of it worked, I just did it. The how/why questions and my still limited terminology came waay later.

I really love this! Kudos!

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

So you want to lucid dream, well sir, then why don't you do it? What is your excuse. What reason do you tell yourself to feel assured that you aren't a lucid dreamer? Whatever it is, i dont want to hear it. You are either a lucid dreamer or you aren't, it's that simple. Theres nothing to say, nothing to explain. You choose. Get rid of your doubts, now. You are a lucid dreamer, period. Don't think about how, just know that you have the power to make it happen.

So, I see how it is. You want guides, instructions, steps, teachers, ANYTHING. Why? Oh you know why. You don't believe in yourself.

Guess what, you are responsible for yourself. Nothing in this world will help you lucid dream except you. But, who am I to say that? Lets give it a shot, shall we?

The act of lucid dreaming is so simple. Just become aware you are dreaming while you are dreaming... how do you do it? HOW DO YOU DO IT!?..... hell if I know. I just do it. Why bother thinking about how when I know I can do it? It's like trying to explain to you how I move my body. Really, when it comes down to it, I don't know. I just do it.

But of course it's not as easy as moving a finger, right? Yes, right. No just kidding your wrong.
It is incredibly easy, but only if you get "HOW" out of your head, like right now. Instructions only serve to comfort and distract our mind that is always thinking "how how how, how this, how that".

Let me tell you something. You either are a lucid dreamer, or you aren't. Either way, it takes the same amount of work, don't believe me? That's natural, but that doesn't make it right. Saying you aren't who you want to be because of this, and that, or him or her, is what cowards do. You aren't a coward. You used to be a coward. No longer. From this moment on, you are who you are because you choose to be this way, whether or not you are a lucid dreamer.

You DO have the power, after all, so what will you choose?
I made my choice.

Beautifull

That applies to many goals in life not just lucid dreaming I reckon.

Fitness, Sports, Taking that leap of faith to talk to that new chick - everything.

You either doing it, living it - or you're not.
Simple as that.

I'm kinda drunk right now so this could be a bit stretched, but this is the most inspiring stuff I've read in a long time. Thank you sir.

Originally Posted by sprada

I'm kinda drunk right now so this could be a bit stretched, but this is the most inspiring stuff I've read in a long time. Thank you sir.

I'm just reminding you of what you already know. We all have the power to motivate and inspire ourselves, we just need to remember our true power.

If you knew what you were capable of, hoho... man, you would feel like a god.

Confidence is a big factor of lucid dreaming but it's not the most important one, consistency is.

Nice part of the rocky quote though

Originally Posted by Hypertrophy

Confidence is a big factor of lucid dreaming but it's not the most important one, consistency is.

I disagree. Sometimes confidence can be the determining factor on whether you lucid dream that night or not. Your subconscious rules your dreams, and if your subconscious doesn't believe you can lucid dream, then you won't lucid dream. Consistency is definitely helpful but not necessarily required; for example many people (myself included) sometimes just have spontaneous lucid dreams without the DJing or the techniques or all that needed.

Originally Posted by Maxis

I disagree. Sometimes confidence can be the determining factor on whether you lucid dream that night or not. Your subconscious rules your dreams, and if your subconscious doesn't believe you can lucid dream, then you won't lucid dream. Consistency is definitely helpful but not necessarily required; for example many people (myself included) sometimes just have spontaneous lucid dreams without the DJing or the techniques or all that needed.

You hit the nail on the head.

Hmmm... I like the idea of belief. But just believing is hard. It isn't just "I am going to do this" it is subconscious expectation. Subconscious expectation is harder to change. expectation is determined by experience.

This is stupid, it completely neglects that some people just can't lucid dream through confidence only. It's like you assume that all people know exactly why they don't believe in themselves.

Well here's the deal. A lot of people don't believe in themselves subconsciously, they think they do but really they don't. How will they be able to lucid dream just by believing if they subconsciously believe that they can't?
Guess how they can learn how to lucid dream? by using methods consistently and building up the ability to lucid dream, thus building up their own confidence.

Your "inspirational" post works for the 1% who have the determination and abiltiy to just believe. For everyone else, who have hidden doubts (or cowards as you like to call them) there are well established methods.

Originally Posted by dutchraptor

This is stupid, it completely neglects that some people just can't lucid dream through confidence only. It's like you assume that all people know exactly why they don't believe in themselves.

Well here's the deal. A lot of people don't believe in themselves subconsciously, they think they do but really they don't. How will they be able to lucid dream just by believing if they subconsciously believe that they can't?
Guess how they can learn how to lucid dream? by using methods consistently and building up the ability to lucid dream, thus building up their own confidence.

Your "inspirational" post works for the 1% who have the determination and abiltiy to just believe. For everyone else, who have hidden doubts (or cowards as you like to call them) there are well established methods.

After using normal methods and having the "experience", you're expectation will change. Then you will be able to do it from expectation. That is why every lucid you have is important, it gives you the confidence (expectation) from each experience. That is why each lucid is easier if you keep trying and don't give up. If you give up and come back, you start from a lower point than you started before, because subconsciously you don't think that it is important.

Blah blah blah. Get rid of your doubts. If you can't do that on your own, go read some intricate well thought out technique written by some expert. Maybe that will remove your doubts. Either way, I've learned that techniques only exist to distract the mind and remove doubts. I'm telling everyone up front that if you can just remove your doubts it WILL happen. Stop your bullshit, stop your excuses, stop your complaints, just stop. This works for everyone. It only depends on how stubborn you are.

Fight your self constructed limitations. Become who you want to be.
Or don't, either way it doesn't really matter.

I became a lucid dreamer through sheer determination and defiance.
I had a defiant attitude towards the commonly accepted idea that lucid dreaming was hard.
I said, "screw what anybody says about this, I'M GOING TO FUCKIN DO THIS, I DON'T KNOW HOW, BUT I WILL."
And that's exactly what I did.

Go ahead, doubt yourself, and accomplish absolutely nothing.

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

I said, "screw what anybody says about this, I'M GOING TO FUCKIN DO THIS, I DON'T KNOW HOW, BUT I WILL."
And that's exactly what I did.

What was it, exactly, that you "did"? Just walked around all day saying "I'M A LUCID DREAMER!" and they just appeared? What did you do to get to your first? How long did it take from the first moment of your dedication? What was your frequency through the first 10, 25, 50, 100, 200, etc? What did you find out about your sleep, dreaming, and how did you adapt your practice or mindset to that?

I agree with good bit of what you're saying, at least the "no one else can do it for you" sentiment. Dreaming is personal and requires both the dedication and the severe and honest self-evaluation to figure out what works and what doesn't. But I also agree with dutch and BB, there are well established ways to get going.

So how, exactly, did you get going? That's very very useful information for the community to have.

There is no how.
Don't ask how.
I didn't know how I made it happen.

I just knew I had the power to make it happen.
I removed my doubts, and it just happened.
I simply stopped thinking about how. I wanted it more than anything, to the point where I knew it would happen.

You know exactly what you have to do and yet you waste your time asking how.
Don't talk about it just do it. Sorry to dissapoint you, but there is nothing to say here.
Go read your techniques, because I can't help you.

I find this pretty arrogant.
I know, I had lucids as a child - and I know I can lucid dream also from later experiences.
But those I had to practise for.
Should I have told myself back then - you either are or you aren´t?

If just from willing it, it didn´t work - throw it all in the bin and judge myself incompetent, like you suggest all should do, who don´t have lucids without help, advice and techniques.
Everybody can lucid dream, if they strive for it, I believe - but not by letting oneself be discouraged by such statements as the OPs.

Coming on here then I have really started learning.
I have improved so much so fast from the help of my teachers on here - these "techniques" as you name then condescendingly - are wonderful tools and there is much great advice, which really helps along - esp. learning about timing, mantras, the importance of journalling, rc-ing and ways to control the LD - many many things, which do not fall from the heavens into all our brains on their own!

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

I wanted it more than anything, to the point where I knew it would happen

Okay - if I ran around all day thinking about absolutely nothing else and throwing in all my imagination and willpower - I might just get lucid and be done with it for that one time - maybe yes.
But you can hardly do that all the time, now can you?

You are portraying yourself as the natural LD-master - seeing through all the stupid paraphernalia of LD to the core - you are pretty full of yourself.
So - you should at least not be a coward now - and honest - and answer these questions:

When was your first LD?
How many LDs per night?
How long are your lucids?
Do you remember your lucid goals from waking life - whatever they are?
Can you realize them?
What was your greatest lucid control feature up to now?

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

Go read your techniques, because I can't help you.

And neither can you help anyone else.
Your "methodless" approach is a method in itself. Once you have been told how to do everything, you cannot just forgot it. It is near impossible for someone who has looked extensively into lucid dreaming to gain anything at all from your technique.

Your approach only works for people who know absolutely nothing about how lucid dreaming works or is induced.

This post will never attract that crowd and you will not succeed in getting people to utilize it, because someone new to DV will have undoubtedly already looked at other methods.

Besides this your lackluster posting obviously shows you have no intention in helping people but just re-enforcing your own natural ability. Get off your ego trip.

Originally Posted by SilverBullet

There is no how.
Don't ask how.
I didn't know how I made it happen.

I just knew I had the power to make it happen.
I removed my doubts, and it just happened.
I simply stopped thinking about how. I wanted it more than anything, to the point where I knew it would happen.

You know exactly what you have to do and yet you waste your time asking how.
Don't talk about it just do it. Sorry to dissapoint you, but there is nothing to say here.
Go read your techniques, because I can't help you.

You are either natural, one of the lucky ones. That started to have lucids at young age and they didn't stop as you aged. Without any effort.

Or your technique is awareness, intent and perhaps mantras. That would be MILD/DILD.

You say you wanted to LD more than anything. So you must have been thinking about it all day. Thinking how it would be in a LD. Comparing it to your daily life. That's awareness. You were talking to yourself "I realize I'm dreaming". Those are mantras. And "I am a lucid dreamer" is when you were setting your intent.

I'm just speculating here, but I don't see how somebody can think of lucid dreaming and of achieving one and not have these thought cross their mind.

And you are right. Techniques don't matter. Unless you are just starting out and learning. Then they do matter. And as we "learn" the "how to" from techniques. and gain experience, we also realize, that techniques are just training wheels. Something we need to get us started off. But we need to start off with proper techniques. And so many information that's in these tutorials and threads all over DV are invaluable. Many things we could figure out by ourselves. But it may take years. So why not share our knowledge with others?

So despite all the chest puffing, it sounds like you developed a very strong expectation, and probably did something like all day awareness and intense visualization. Is that really so hard to communicate?

Our difficulty with this simple progression is that most of us are unwilling to accept that we need so little to get on with. We are geared to expect instruction, teaching, guides, masters. And when we are told that we need no one, we don't believe it. We become nervous, then distrustful, and finally angry and disappointed. If we need help, it is not in methods, but in emphasis.

You can do anything as long as you have unbending intent.

There is no trick, there is no method, there are no steps, techniques, or mantras.
Sorry to dissapoint you.

You disappoint me by not answering my simple questions about the LDs you have.

In my dreams I simply become lucid. Completely out of the blue. The dream could be an exact replica of my daily life and I'll still realize I'm dreaming. The consistency and duration all depends on how strong my intent is.

If I want to do something specific, i have to set my unbending intent to do so. I can have any kind of lucid dream I want, as long as I have unbending intent.

If you want to analyse my dreaming patterns, you are wasting your intentional energy.
Do not waste your intentional energy on wondering how to lucid dream. Focus all of your intent on simply lucid dreaming.

You can gain more of a connection with intent by not dividing it onto other things.
The biggest ones I can think of are desires, worries, concerns, and doubts.
Stop asking how, It's a monumental waste.

Well - I don´t think, I need such an unbending intent - it sounds very strenuous - I think, it is much easier, if you make it easier for yourself.
By applying knowledge - making a habit of practices - honestly - I do not have to pull my most in intent out to have an LD - it works much easier when it does for me.

You are basically correct in saying - throw away doubts - but throw away all the useful experience and knowledge of others - leaves you with learning it all the hard way - and it is only natural, that some things will elude you for ages like that.

To say to others - all technique is worthless - I would at least want to be sure, I surpass these teachers out there in my abilities - in all respects.
Some have being lucid as their default-dreaming-state - at least a bit.
Even trying not to be lucid, because it comes on it´s own after years of practice with some people.

It does not sound, as if LD came easy to you - I might misunderstand - but to me it sounds as if you needed a willpower like for giving up smoking to LD.
No you don´t - it is much easier.

Edit: For me - you are or you aren´t - and if you aren´t but want to - then you can learn it!