Thread: "Dream Demons"

I also wondered why he didn't ask her the simple question. Its a good learning experience for the dreamer though. Its also good that it was posted here because it created good dialog and information for the op. A lot of input and thinking went into this thread and I found it very interesting to say the least.
Happy dreaming y'all.

It appears you have dream psychosis, sorry it's a permanent condition...

OH and that's a real demon and there's nothing you can do, It will haunt you in your dreams and will do as it pleases it's not your dream its the demons dream now.

Originally Posted by Incubus

It appears you have dream psychosis, sorry it's a permanent condition...

OH and that's a real demon and there's nothing you can do, It will haunt you in your dreams and will do as it pleases it's not your dream its the demons dream now.

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. OP can't have a psychosis AND her experience be real at the same time.

Btw, it sounds like you are trolling. In your first post.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

You better belief, that shit is real!

Kadie is spot on with this, I think. It is the only rational explanation as to why the dream guide actually wanted to read the note. Have not thought about that myself. I was thinking

If one does not think chakras can be incorporated into reason then i challenge that one to come up with an explanation that you would consider rational. I think if that was to happen one would instantly spout a bunch of unsubstantiated claims about subconscious activity that turns out to be much of a fantasy projection and produce a whole gimmick of unsatisfying answers.

Note how i used the word 'one' and not 'you', LouiaB. I changed this as soon as i noted i was getting a bit agressive on the verbal side and just needed to have this vend off my chest.. hehe.. We cool?

Of course man! nothing was offending at all. I hope I didn't offend you with my post

Demons that can hack your brain to reach your dreams to cause harm, can simply kill you by effecting your brain not by dreams, but by essential parts. I stick to the idea of no demons, only a plot/nightmare. Sorry OP.

Originally Posted by JadeGreen

So what your saying is if this is just a dream I can just make it go away, but if it is a spirit or something I have to try to fight it?

P.S. I like your signature.

I wouldn't call a dream character or a thoughtform a dream, but rather something inside a dream. If the entity is sentient/self-aware/"real" then you may have to defeat it. Fighting is one way of defeating enemies in dreams. Anotherdreamer uses love. I would personally call his method a love magick attack, but that's just how I view things. The Senoi people, a lucid dreaming culture, ask their enemies for a gift in dreams.

The art in my signature is a drawing by Windhover.

Originally Posted by anotherdreamer

Whether the dream entities are sentient or imagined, you are giving them energy by your attention and your fear. The more energy you give the more power they have over you. From my experience there is one secret weapon that you can use to stop all sorts of demonic nightmare stuff in your lucid dreams!

All you have to do is smile and give them a big hug full of love. They may bite you and gnaw at you, maybe they'll even rip your body apart but if you can shine with love then they will no longer have any power over you. I know it can be very hard too, one dream I had an army of demons chasing me and so I stopped running and gave them all a hug and made my heart swell with love for them. They proceeded to take big bites out of my flesh and nibble on my bones but I knew that I wasn't that dream body, so it didn't matter, only the feeling I had mattered. Good luck~ ^^

Fascinating.

Katy was scared of everything on her dreamplane. (Ego man, tiger, crock, spider). But look at how she conquered all her dreamplane DEMONS.

***

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cevx...e_gdata_player

***(4:30)

Over 300 Million views in 16 weeks.

This lucid dream video is influencing a lot of people.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

Demons that can hack your brain to reach your dreams to cause harm, can simply kill you by effecting your brain not by dreams, but by essential parts. I stick to the idea of no demons, only a plot/nightmare.

These statements seem to implicitly assume that:

1) A demon that seems to attack you in a dream is trying to cause real harm.
2) Affecting 'essential parts' enough to kill you is as easy as harming you psychologically in a dream.
3) A demon that intends to kill you and is powerful enough to kill you outright will choose to do that immediately.
4) A hostile demon that is affecting your dream is not in the process of affecting essential parts.
5) If you are being killed by a demon you will recognize your decline and death as the work of a demon.
6) The demon understands the meaning of 'kill' the same way that you do, and cares if your body continues walking around consuming oxygen until old age.
7) A clear distinction can always be drawn between the action of a demon and any other process.

My experience and understanding of how the mind works suggests that all these assumptions are false.

I agree though that we don't have much to fear about experiences in dreams, as these are mostly metaphorical descriptions or reflections of things that are going on in our minds and lives anyway. Also its generally not helpful to objectify and externalize destructive behavior by regarding it principally as the work of demons, since other naturalistic and psychological aspects of experience are of equal or greater importance.

Originally Posted by anotherdreamer

All you have to do is smile and give them a big hug full of love. They may bite you and gnaw at you, maybe they'll even rip your body apart but if you can shine with love then they will no longer have any power over you. I know it can be very hard too, one dream I had an army of demons chasing me and so I stopped running and gave them all a hug and made my heart swell with love for them. They proceeded to take big bites out of my flesh and nibble on my bones but I knew that I wasn't that dream body, so it didn't matter, only the feeling I had mattered.

Is the dream body a type of finer astral-like body, made of some exotic substance? (I doubt it, though other people believe otherwise.) Is there something else more physically tangible going on that translates metaphorically to having one's bones nibbled in a dream? (Probable, in my opinion.) If either is true, then what you describe doesn't sound to me like a very good idea. I'm with you on the transformative power of love, but some prudence is needed while doing that, as in waking life. One doesn't go around hugging wild lions. Similarly, if working with violent criminals love is a powerful force, but you're not likely to be helping people very effectively and for very long if you don't take care of yourself also.

I don't think dream experiences are in general anything to worry about. But in my observation, any time a person presses with an idealistic, absolutist thought, it eventually leads to very bad results. It is necessary also to consider the feedback you get from your experience, and adjust when something seems to be hurting you. That's how I see it anyway, for consideration.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

Is the dream body a type of finer astral-like body, made of some exotic substance? (I doubt it, though other people believe otherwise.) Is there something else more physically tangible going on that translates metaphorically to having one's bones nibbled in a dream? (Probable, in my opinion.) If either is true, then what you describe doesn't sound to me like a very good idea. I'm with you on the transformative power of love, but some prudence is needed while doing that, as in waking life. One doesn't go around hugging wild lions. Similarly, if working with violent criminals love is a powerful force, but you're not likely to be helping people very effectively and for very long if you don't take care of yourself also.

I don't think dream experiences are in general anything to worry about. But in my observation, any time a person presses with an idealistic, absolutist thought, it eventually leads to very bad results. It is necessary also to consider the feedback you get from your experience, and adjust when something seems to be hurting you. That's how I see it anyway, for consideration.

Well it worked for me anyways, don't have to worry about being attacked in lucid dreams anymore. Excellent results - joy, a more content waking life, freedom from fear in dreams. I guess this comes down to a difference in our beliefs, that's all. What works for each person works for them

Originally Posted by gab

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. OP can't have a psychosis AND her experience be real at the same time.

Btw, it sounds like you are trolling. In your first post.

location: under a bridge

Originally Posted by anotherdreamer

Well it worked for me anyways, don't have to worry about being attacked in lucid dreams anymore. Excellent results - joy, a more content waking life, freedom from fear in dreams.

That's useful to know. Thanks for sharing.

well, a demon must effect your neurons to enter your dream, and since that never happened(neuron activity from unknown reason), then it is safe to say that demons don't enter dreams, and all this is but a nightmare. Really, believing that this is the work of a demon only makes the nightmares worse and persistent.

Before I get into presenting my opinions to OP, when I was glancing through this thread, I saw a lot of arguments in relation to sentience (and skewing it with existence), impasse logic with dream guides or whatever terminology people want to use to conceptualize the thought-forms in their dreams, and some statements that would be related mostly towards:

• Panpsychsim
• Dualism
• Solipsism
• And pretty much any philosophical argument that may be supportive of collective/universal consciousness
• Teleological arguments (especially with intrinsic finalities vs. extrinsic finalities (e.g. dream guides as highly vicarious entities that provide all sorts of ways that are supplementary for the dreamer’s development of several modes of cognition and competencies)). Or an intrinsic causality towards building rapport with self in short.

But the interesting part is that it would be difficult for some to give a psychological standpoint towards the concepts in this thread that would be metaphysical (e.g. dream demons or otherworldly demons while still retaining some kind of inward focus that it’s all within the confines of their minds).

It’s kind of difficult connecting everything that has been stated, and I honestly want to give opinions to other people than just the OP…

Anyway, I’ll address to OP questions and then his statements before going to the others.

Spoiler for JadeGreen:

This seemed weird, anyone else had their dream guide ask to be named by you?

Not really for, I usually asked them what they would like to be called, or what their names were. Though I guess in some cases that did happen, but I can’t really recall the mélange of prospective “dream guides” I’ve went through.

This isn't something I want to change. Seeing my dream guide alot is great in fact, for I get extra help in learning dream control and somebody that I can talk to. But I found it weird that I was seeing this person even before I knew what lucid dreaming was. Anyone else experience this?

It depends on how you want others to approach this question. If you’re open to the probability that there was some kind of collective behavior with thought-forms interacting with other people beyond the confines of your mind, I guess to some extent that was the case for me.

But if you’re asking for parameters solely in relation to people having experiences in their dreams before they even knew what lucid dreaming was, it didn’t seem to be the case in my perspective. Though I always felt like there was some kind of overwhelming entity or phenomenon that seemed to have guided me through most of my adolescence. But I could just be confusing that with entrenched predispositions (e.g. drive for self-actualization, ambition, being part of the rat-race of society, etc.).

I guess this depends if you have the disposition that people have dream guides brimming with a highly vicarious nature for empathy, compassion, insight, and all sorts of consciousness derived qualities or modes of cognition and metacognition. After going through waves of probable dream guides, questioning whether or not they were my dream guides, I was sort of in a crisis on the terminology.

I tried being subjective that there could be multiple dream guides, and sometimes attributing higher sentience and impregnable existence as potential dream guides, but with the nonsensical, sporadic, and cryptic dreams I’ve been recalling these few years, it made things difficult.

To overcome that crisis deadlock, I just had to be rational again and go back to the slightly skewed ontological conjectures of how dream guides are simply a label and any thought-form can become one if the dreamer goes through the several modes of developing the thought-form’s sentience, sapience, and several mental attributes.

Though while I felt that most of the experiences solely within the perspective the confines of my mind would be monism, diving deeper into consciousness exploration still irks me to feel that thinking that would be an overstatement. Of course, I never really decided to get too metaphysical on things like that, and only was shifted into being subjective to it because of anecdotal cases and circumstantial presumptions from others I was closely interacting with lucid dreaming.

Some made presumptions that the entities within their dreams could possibly embody the totality of a person that’s real in waking life. Though that brings up several arguments and contradictions on the mind’s capability to use implicit knowledge based on the conjecture previously known about the waking life counterpart and being able to create a near perfect projection within the dream.

I also seemed to have a knack of the whole metaphorical higher-self narrating to me of some pretty ontological and teleological aspects of a certain person I knew in waking life. Though I never really tapped into that as much seeing how that caused conflict whenever I discussed it with those people. They either became scared, paranoid, and wanted to avoid me altogether because I just knew a bit too much about them…or they would feign passiveness but end up being concerned about what I found out about them.

Essentially, that would lead to philosophical arguments on whether or not thought-forms (e.g. dream guides in your case) could already have some kind of intrinsic ability for contributing for helping you find good in your life. Or it could be how the mind would apply some inward semiosis meaningfulness to settle the difficulty of conceptualizing the monism to explain in a decent fashion of the previous sentence I made.

This is where I start getting some more serious questions. Does anyone else have experiences with a persistent dream villain? Why is he able to execute dream control even more powerful than me? Why is he evil? Why does he even exist?

Depends on how you want to approach this (e.g. otherworldly entities or entities within the confines of your mind that emulate mental attributes vastly superior to yours):

• Sometimes encountering an entity with impregnable existence could be a clear sign that you probably should change your views of them being a villain and actually ask why they exist. You know, the whole extraction and interrogation of a thought-form to see if there’s some kind of metaphorical lesson/message from the subconscious/unconscious/whatever term people want to use that could be applied as a supplementary benefit towards your quotidian lifestyle.

• Or it could be like point 1, except they just happened to be a randomly conjured entity that’s just there to troll around your perception within your dreams. Though that’s highly improbable seeing how circumstantial cases implies there’s some insight to be gained from those thought-forms in your head. But with arguments of how the mind can just apply an infinite semiosis to make what was originally of no meaning into something that actually fulfills into something meaningful is always there.

So the best approach would be to just ask the entity that seems to be so prevalent to close that gap of uncertainty you have. Anyone trying to give you alternatives, contingencies, or any other myriad of methods to approach the villain may end up with self-fulfilling prophecies.

This is why the best way is sometimes direct way without having too many expectations encroaching how you would perceive that entity.

Is this just my subconscious creating a story and attaching it to my lucid dreams, or is this a legitimate spiritual issue? Either way, I want to know how to stop this.

That may be a probability, but like I stated before this quote, it could really just be your mind using semiosis and being resourceful simulacra to make it plausible to you. But if you’re asking whether or not that’s a “legitimate spiritual issue,” I’ll just have to be a pacifist and say:

It’s a matter of disposition.

This is where I got weirded out. For one THAT IS NOT SOMETHING A DREAM CHARACTER SHOULD SAY!

I have a friend that had an experience similar to that. She bluntly stated to the entity that “There’s no way I would say something like that.” And then in comes the mind-blowing response from the entity that shocks her completely (which ended up in her going through a series of surprises in her life).

However, that’s just one anecdotal case, but in relation to thought-forms without having a metaphysical bent towards analyzing your moment, any dream character can say that. I guess you were surprised that you encountered a sentient being (whose existential origins is subjective depending on how people apply their own ideologies towards their interpretations) that was sapient enough to give you something abnormal from the typical behavioral trends of other thought-forms in your dreams.

All you can really do to close that gap of uncertainty is communicate with them more and develop your own experiential truth (though that might bring back that semiosis argument I mentioned several times already). And I doubt you would be able to apply a psychological perspective of what you would be going through if you go to that route of spiritual perspective.

Now I get even more bothered by this dream. For one, the tree trunk conjuring. Why would my dream guide do that if it only makes the situation worse rather than solving it? Heck if it wasn't for me asking the nightmare for purpose, we'd have both been nightmare demonmoster chow.

Maybe you should pay attention to interpreting tree drunk dream signs to add some perspective on what this metaphorically represents. In your scenario though, it seems like it’s more of your dream guide chopping down aspects of your personality/temperament that could be a detriment in your angst towards spiritual and other beliefs.

But again, this is only a presumption. You think the situation is worse because you’re attaching yourself to the disposition that it is. Maybe it would be better for you to have your dream guide continue being that embodiment of a vicarious entity that could give you some supplementary insight on that course of action they took.

Since after all, you did claim that you meet them frequently, so logic would follow would be to ask in more detail to her of why they would do something like that. Remember, the direct approach may give you a more accurate meaning.

This leads me to my final question. Wether or not this is in fact a spiritual experience, and I really am being harassed by "dream demons". Or this is just my subconscious turning all of my dreams into an elaborate story, I want it to stop. I just want to lucid dream normally without this battle between dreams and nightmares taking place anymore.

It’s a matter of disposition, or several dispositions actually. It would be better to reconcile inwardly with aspects of your mind in your dreams rather than taking other people’s opinions a bit more seriously in your attempt for group thinking.

Not that the attempt is bad or anything, but this specific question is mostly based on understanding the conceptual framework of yourself through your own eyes, and taking heed to whatever supplementary insight your dream guide or other dream characters can give rather than others in this thread.

WakingNomad:

F*cking demons are f*cking real. Or they are not. Either they are sentient entities, or they are not. If they are not, they are thoughtforms, "DC", figments or manifestations of your own imagination. Every one like a walking thought. Think about something else, focus on something else, then those thoughtforms may simply disappear. If they are sentient, you may have to fight them. Go from your Inner World out. As above, so below, ride the Khaos Kurrent, go with the flow.

I don’t think there would be a discernible attribute with an entity’s sentience vs. their impregnable existence (i.e. you having to fight them if you can’t consciously will their existence from your perception of reality).

Of course, I know you’re the type of individual that’s subjective towards many aspects, so I can’t really crack down what standpoint you’re trying to present here. Though I would argue that a person can have a sentient thought-form and can easily will them away.

Sentience is merely a rudimentary type of sensory awareness and the ability to experience subjectivity. And with how the whole monism within lucid dreaming would be something most subscribe to (without going into a metaphysical bent), sentience would be a natural mental attribute dream characters/thought-forms would have. The difference may be how proficient the thought-forms/dream characters would apply their sentience to make rational choices, judgement, etc. (sapience).

Like I mentioned to the original OP that seemed to be bewildered by how the dream character said something no other dream character would state, maybe the impregnable existence of those entities could have potential in giving insight. They could merely have that impregnable existence so that you can actually pay attention to them, and maybe they might settle down instead of you summoning multiple portals and throwing their split body parts in multiple dimensions (this is just associating your previous habits from the videos you made on YouTube on how you handle those entities).

If the entity is sentient/self-aware/"real" then you may have to defeat it. Fighting is one way of defeating enemies in dreams. Anotherdreamer uses love. I would personally call his method a love magick attack, but that's just how I view things. The Senoi people, a lucid dreaming culture, ask their enemies for a gift in dreams.

Though this would bring up several arguments on how people interpret what is an enemy or ally in their own dreams. But again, I guess since you have more of a combative disposition towards things (i.e. love magick attack instead of reconciling with thought-forms to reach a level of rapport), it would be kind of futile for me to state anything else other than what I made about sentience vs. impregnable existence before.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

well, a demon must effect your neurons to enter your dream, and since that never happened(neuron activity from unknown reason), then it is safe to say that demons don't enter dreams, and all this is but a nightmare. Really, believing that this is the work of a demon only makes the nightmares worse and persistent.

That's a panpsychism argument that consciousness from another entity can directly affect the consciousness of another entity. Or that the modes/activities/occurences that contribute to consciousness have consciousness themselves. Don't know what you were getting at with neurons, maybe you could expound more on this?

Originally Posted by Linkzelda

Before I get into presenting my opinions to OP, when I was glancing through this thread, I saw a lot of arguments in relation to sentience (and skewing it with existence), impasse logic with dream guides or whatever terminology people want to use to conceptualize the thought-forms in their dreams, and some statements that would be related mostly towards:

• Panpsychsim
• Dualism
• Solipsism
• And pretty much any philosophical argument that may be supportive of collective/universal consciousness
• Teleological arguments (especially with intrinsic finalities vs. extrinsic finalities (e.g. dream guides as highly vicarious entities that provide all sorts of ways that are supplementary for the dreamer’s development of several modes of cognition and competencies)). Or an intrinsic causality towards building rapport with self in short.

But the interesting part is that it would be difficult for some to give a psychological standpoint towards the concepts in this thread that would be metaphysical (e.g. dream demons or otherworldly demons while still retaining some kind of inward focus that it’s all within the confines of their minds).

It’s kind of difficult connecting everything that has been stated, and I honestly want to give opinions to other people than just the OP…

Anyway, I’ll address to OP questions and then his statements before going to the others.

Spoiler for JadeGreen:

Not really for, I usually asked them what they would like to be called, or what their names were. Though I guess in some cases that did happen, but I can’t really recall the mélange of prospective “dream guides” I’ve went through.



It depends on how you want others to approach this question. If you’re open to the probability that there was some kind of collective behavior with thought-forms interacting with other people beyond the confines of your mind, I guess to some extent that was the case for me.

But if you’re asking for parameters solely in relation to people having experiences in their dreams before they even knew what lucid dreaming was, it didn’t seem to be the case in my perspective. Though I always felt like there was some kind of overwhelming entity or phenomenon that seemed to have guided me through most of my adolescent. But I could just be confusing that with entrenched predispositions (e.g. drive for self-actualization, ambition, being part of the rat-race of society, etc.).

I guess this depends if you have the disposition that people have dream guides brimming with a highly vicarious nature for empathy, compassion, insight, and all sorts of consciousness derived qualities or modes of cognition and metacognition. After going through waves of probable dream guides, questioning whether or not they were my dream guides, I was sort of in a crisis on the terminology.

I tried being subjective that there could be multiple dream guides, and sometimes attributing higher sentience and impregnable existence as potential dream guides, but with the nonsensical, sporadic, and cryptic dreams I’ve been recalling these few years, it made things difficult.

To overcome that crisis deadlock, I just had to be rational again and go back to the slightly skewed ontological conjectures of how dream guides are simply a label and any thought-form can become one if the dreamer goes through the several modes of developing the thought-form’s sentience, sapience, and several mental attributes.

Though while I felt that most of the experiences solely within the perspective the confines of my mind would be monism, diving deeper into consciousness exploration still irks me to feel that thinking that would be an overstatement. Of course, I never really decided to get too metaphysical on things like that, and only was shifted into being subjective to it because of anecdotal cases and circumstantial presumptions from others I was closely interacting with lucid dreaming.

Some made presumptions that the entities within their dreams could possibly embody the totality of a person that’s real in waking life. Though that brings up several arguments and contradictions on the mind’s capability to use implicit knowledge based on the conjecture previously known about the waking life counterpart and being able to create a near perfect projection within the dream.

I also seemed to have a knack of the whole metaphorical higher-self narrating to me of some pretty ontological and teleological aspects of a certain person I knew in waking life. Though I never really tapped into that as much seeing how that caused conflict whenever I discussed it with those people. They either became scared, paranoid, and wanted to avoid me altogether because I just knew a bit too much about them…or they would feign passiveness but end up being concerned about what I found out about them.

Essentially, that would lead to philosophical arguments on whether or not thought-forms (e.g. dream guides in your case) could already have some kind of intrinsic ability for contributing for helping you find good in your life. Or it could be how the mind would apply some inward semiosis meaningfulness to settle the difficulty of conceptualizing the monism to explain in a decent fashion of the previous sentence I made.




Depends on how you want to approach this (e.g. otherworldly entities or entities within the confines of your mind that emulate mental attributes vastly superior to yours):

• Sometimes encountering an entity with impregnable existence could be a clear sign that you probably should change your views of them being a villain and actually ask why they exist. You know, the whole extraction and interrogation of a thought-form to see if there’s some kind of metaphorical lesson/message from the subconscious/unconscious/whatever term people want to use that could be applied as a supplementary benefit towards your quotidian lifestyle.

• Or it could be like point 1, except they just happened to be a randomly conjured entity that’s just there to troll around your perception within your dreams. Though that’s high improbable seeing how circumstantial cases implies there’s some insight to be gained from those thought-forms in your head. But with arguments of how the mind can just apply an infinite semiosis to make what was originally of no meaning into something that actually fulfills into something meaningful is always there.

So the best approach would be to just ask the entity that seems to be so prevalent to close that gap of uncertainty you have. Anyone trying to give you alternatives, contingencies, or any other myriad of methods to approach the villain may end up with self-fulfilling prophecies.

This is why the best way is sometimes direct way without having too many expectations encroaching how you would perceive that entity.




That may be a probability, but like I stated before this quote, it could really just be your mind using semiosis and being resourceful simulacra to make it plausible to you. But if you’re asking whether or not that’s a “legitimate spiritual issue,” I’ll just have to be a pacifist and say:

It’s a matter of disposition.





I have a friend that had an experience similar to that. She bluntly stated to the entity that “There’s no way I would say something like that.” And then in comes the mind-blowing response from the entity that shocks her completely (which ended up in her going through a series of surprises in her life).

However, that’s just one anecdotal case, but in relation to thought-forms without having a metaphysical bent towards analyzing your moment, any dream character can say that. I guess you were surprised that you encountered a sentient being (whose existential origins is subjective depending on how people apply their own ideologies towards their interpretations) that was sapient enough to give you something abnormal from the typical behavioral trends of other thought-forms in your dreams.

All you can really do to close that gap of uncertainty is communicate with them more and develop your own experiential truth (though that might bring back that semiosis argument I mentioned several times already). And I doubt you would be able to apply a psychological perspective of what you would be going through if you go to that route of spiritual perspective.



Maybe you should pay attention to interpreting tree drunk dream signs to add some perspective on what this metaphorically represents. In your scenario though, it seems like it’s more of your dream guide chopping down aspects of your personality/temperament that could be a detriment in your angst towards spiritual and other beliefs.

But again, this is only a presumption. You think the situation is worse because you’re attaching yourself to the disposition that it is. Maybe it would be better for you to have your dream guide continue being that embodiment of a vicarious entity that could give you some supplementary insight on that course of action they took.

Since after all, you did claim that you meet them frequently, so logic would follow would be to ask in more detail to her of why they would do something like that. Remember, the direct approach may give you a more accurate meaning.



It’s a matter of disposition, or several dispositions actually. It would be better to reconcile inwardly with aspects of your mind in your dreams rather than taking other people’s opinions a bit more seriously in your attempt for group thinking.

Not that the attempt is bad or anything, but this specific question is mostly based on understanding the conceptual framework of yourself through your own eyes, and taking heed to whatever supplementary insight your dream guide or other dream characters can give rather than others in this thread.

WakingNomad:



I don’t think there would be a discernible attribute with an entity’s sentience vs. their impregnable existence (i.e. you having to fight them if you can’t consciously will their existence from your perception of reality).

Of course, I know you’re the type of individual that’s subjective towards many aspects, so I can’t really crack down what standpoint you’re trying to present here. Though I would argue that a person can have a sentient thought-form and can easily will them away.

Sentience is merely a rudimentary type of sensory awareness and the ability to experience subjectivity. And with how the whole monism within lucid dreaming would be something most subscribe to (without going into a metaphysical bent), sentience would be a natural mental attribute dream characters/thought-forms would have. The difference may be how proficient the thought-forms/dream characters would apply their sentience to make rational choices, judgement, etc. (sapience).

Like I mentioned to the original OP that seemed to be bewildered by how the dream character said something no other dream character would state, maybe the impregnable existence of those entities could have potential in giving insight. They could merely have that impregnable existence so that you can actually pay attention to them, and maybe they might settle down instead of you summoning multiple portals and throwing their split body parts in multiple dimensions (this is just associating your previous habits from the videos you made on YouTube that is).



Though this would bring up several arguments on how people interpret what is an enemy or ally in their own dreams. But again, I guess since you have more of a combative disposition towards things (i.e. love magick attack instead of reconciling with thought-forms to reach a level of rapport), it would be kind of futile for me to state anything else other than what I made about sentience vs. impregnable existence before.



That's a panpsychism argument that consciousness from another entity can directly affect the consciousness of another entity. Or that the modes/activities/occurences that contribute to consciousness have consciousness themselves. Don't know what you were getting at with neurons, maybe you could expound more on this?

Maybe some thoughtforms we create can have sentience. Maybe some gods are egregores, created by the collective unconsciousness of the worshippers.

Maybe, so can we all agree that these demons are the creation of our minds?
If there is any more skeptism, I will explain in a scientifical way:
A DC is a bunch of neurons that sends electrochemical messages to the part of the brain that processes the input(creater of the dream). So, a demon has to send electrochemical messages to the processor for him to exist in the dream. There has never been an electrochemical message from an unknown source, especialy one that creates a "demon". And for the demon to create an electrochemical message, he has to be a part of this realm/dimension/etc., so he would exist with us in our waking world and we would be able to interact with him PHISICALY.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

Maybe, so can we all agree that these demons are the creation of our minds?
If there is any more skeptism, I will explain in a scientifical way:
A DC is a bunch of neurons that sends electrochemical messages to the part of the brain that processes the input(creater of the dream). So, a demon has to send electrochemical messages to the processor for him to exist in the dream. There has never been an electrochemical message from an unknown source, especialy one that creates a "demon". And for the demon to create an electrochemical message, he has to be a part of this realm/dimension/etc., so he would exist with us in our waking world and we would be able to interact with him PHISICALY.

Which would imply that those components (i.e. neurons) would have some form of consciousness, which would bring up debates between the two monistic theories of panpsychism vs. emergentism. But now you're just giving tautological statements of what you previously stated, so I guess I won't really ask for more clarification. I completely understand the part where you acknowledged demons and such could just be the creation of our minds, but then when you tried to explain it further, it seemed you were still fitting in that parameter of them being in both inward and external representations of reality (which would lead to raising questions on egregores and other thought-form terminology).

That's why it looked like you were mixing around with solipsism and panpsychism, but I didn't want to presume that too quickly, and asked for you to explain a bit more. No need for being scientific as in hard science, seeing how it would just be pseudoscience for me to demand valid statements from you instead of plausible ones.

And I wasn't being skeptical, just curious. It's just the part about neurons reminds me of a thread in Extended Discussion where people felt that the components of an existence or something like that would solely be electrochemical streaming and nothing else. Not saying you're an advocate for that ideology though.

So the bottom line IS?

My opinion..... is that the dreamer already knew the answer and wanted confirmation. He knew he should have just asked. He knew the comment from the witch was a truth of sorts, he knew she wasn't a demon because she came back as a kitten with a message, and he created the kitten because he knew these things and just wanted confirmation. Pretty self explanatory regardless of how you come to the conclusion, what methodology and intellect you use or what philo you site.

Yes, the sub is what creates the dreams. It is formed of neurons. And yes, I do believe them to be conscious. You see, conciousness is anything that interprets, so the sub is a seperate conscious than ours, and it creates dreams. DCs look concious, because they are, but they are effected by our expectations. Again, I argue that they are not demons, but are conscious. Anything that interprets is conscious, but what makes US special is our self-awareness. The concept is not so hard.
Bottom line: As I have proven, no demons.
Also, neurons are conscious, because they are interpreters, so DCs are conscious, but effected by our expectations.

Am I clear? Any more questions?

Originally Posted by kadie

So the bottom line IS?

My opinion..... is that the dreamer already knew the answer and wanted confirmation. He knew he should have just asked. He knew the comment from the witch was a truth of sorts, he knew she wasn't a demon because she came back as a kitten with a message, and he created the kitten because he knew these things and just wanted confirmation. Pretty self explanatory regardless of how you come to the conclusion, what methodology and intellect you use or what philo you site.

It wasn't difficult to understand OP was getting at. Even if they are content in your presumption of them being so, this doesn't mean anything else added would be hopeless. What you're getting at with the last sentence seems to be you not wanting anything more other than what you're capable of conceptualizing, and if that's the case, rest assured that you can ignore anyone else wanting to add on to the discussion that would invade your confirmation bias.

I guess I overestimate some people in this community in developing an ability to broaden their perspectives instead of giving these fatalistic thinking that it doesn't matter what perspective/philosophies/etc. a person uses...even though the whole point of the thread was to promote group thinking with those same modes you think are futile to express in the first place.

Here I thought it was okay to add on to discussions that are implied to have ended as long as the person gave other approaches. But I guess if people prefer being indolent, linear, and militantly aiming for laconic bottom lines, then it's no wonder people can't have decent discussions most of the time in these sections.

I would be more than happy to see this thread evolve into a philosphical discussion about the nature of demons etc.
It serves to understand the dream better while at the same time i use these discussions to fuel future arguments i tend have with myself.

Unfortunately i am unskilled in effective communication and philosophy is not really a talent of mine. I like logic though. Perhaps i should make a thread about my own experience with demons and have you guys scrutinize it. It feels a little bit awkward though i tend to keep these things to myself. I mean, i rather discuss these things with people who i know have an open mind cus usually people tend to feel alarmed when i mention the supernatural. People will immediately jump to conclusions if i mention psychedelics are in play here. >_<

Lol....well I wasn't asking what the bottom line is to dis any of you. It was a simple question. What is you bottom line assessment? I gave mine. I have tried to keep my responses centered on the dreamer and giving him some resolution. I don't feel a need to explain my stance any further, but buy all means, let it out.

It would be cool if JadeGreen suddenly revived this thread with dreams where he cuddles with his demons and made new friends in his dream world hehehe

Originally Posted by LouaiB

Maybe, so can we all agree that these demons are the creation of our minds?

No. Though certainly that is a part of it.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

If there is any more sceptism, I will explain in a scientifical way:
A DC is a bunch of neurons that sends electrochemical messages to the part of the brain that processes the input(creater of the dream). So, a demon has to send electrochemical messages to the processor for him to exist in the dream. There has never been an electrochemical message from an unknown source, especialy one that creates a "demon". And for the demon to create an electrochemical message, he has to be a part of this realm/dimension/etc., so he would exist with us in our waking world and we would be able to interact with him PHISICALY.

I think your comments here are mostly conjecture, generally consistent with but not actually supported by what is known scientifically. You can't necessarily trust other people's claims, since other people may be delusional or lying. So you must believe what seems reasonable to you based on your knowledge and experience. Or you believe what you want to. But your view is sharply inconsistent with what some other people know from their own experience, and the argument you make has been addressed at length elsewhere.

You're also guessing about what other people mean by demons, and there's no way for you to guess correctly without more information. I use the word demon because its the best word I have, but its probably not very close to what you're thinking, which appears to be mostly a straw-man. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time to go over this from the start again, I move tomorrow and start a new job on Monday.

A relaxed person's mind is like a high-gain antenna, it doesn't take much of a perturbation to form an impression. And we know that perturbations occur, such as with quantum fluctuations. Though these fluctuations are often assumed to be perfectly random, there isn't actually anything in our theories that tell us this, the question is outside of our mathematical models.

In order to conclude that "there has never been an electrochemical message from an unknown source", you'd have to understand how it might work well enough to look for it, and you'd have find time and funding to look for it. But for a variety of reasons which we've discussed at length in other threads, nobody has been doing that. One obstacle is that it is not a message in quite the same sense as something communicated in a vibration or radio signal, so before constructing an experiment you'd have to understand better what it is that people are talking about when they speak of demons. Not everybody who believes in demons has thought these questions through very far, but a few have.

I agree that the demon would have to be at least partially in this realm and able to interact with us physically, in ways that don't involve dreams. But in my experience they do that also. Its usually subtle. A human being has a persistent body with a brain and hands for interacting locally with other objects. A demon can move and act parasitically through many bodies, but has a much more limited ability to 'cause' large-scale effects through direct application of force. By way of analogy, when a current moves through a wire, the electrons are traveling a much shorter distance than the signal moves through them. A demon is more like that than it is like a 'being', but it also acts non-locally, so in some sense it is everywhere at once. Its true that we have almost no idea how something like that would work, since it is as far outside of our current physics theory as radio was a thousand years ago. But just because we don't understand something, and can't control it well enough to easily reproduce it in a lab setting, doesn't make it unreal.

As I see it, the existence of demons follows pretty much automatically from the existence of telepathy: one allows the existence of the other. It is possible to discover something about this for yourself, and if you are sincerely open to discover something new, and remember dreams easily, I can help you do that. Or, if you aren't interested in looking for the evidence, I think that's reasonable, but then you just have to accept being uninformed.

I'm not going to have much time to continue this conversation. There are many old threads going over and over this topic though, addressing at length any objection you're likely to come up with. So far you haven't said anything that we haven't seen many times before. Or you could argue with Sageous or someone else who was there for all of that, though I doubt they have much enthusiasm for it, particularly when at least half of skeptics on this site are mostly trolling and don't really care about discovery. WakingNomad's attitude towards this is shared to some extent by all of us: if you want to find out anything about demons, you'll find out by exploring it. And we can help with that, it doesn't take much time. Or if you think you already know what's worth knowing on the subject, and its not worth your time to peruse what we've already said, then you can go on thinking whatever you want to.