Originally Posted by shadowofwind
Steph,
We picked a difficult time to try to do this, I have insanely short deadlines at work, and my wife has been up most of the past two nights working. For me its kind of like raising a puppy or growing a plant though, once started it can't just be put off for a more convenient time.
First of all - please don't feel pressured now. I won't go ahead and say - see, told you - I would be patient, and as you said, I have nothing to loose.
Originally Posted by shadowofwind
In our initial discussions of shared dreaming, most of the thrust of your argument wasn't that you thought it was impossible, it was that you weren't convinced that it would be a good idea. That was an argument that I'm sympathetic to, and I guess you recall that I've supported that side of it. This is an issue now though, if you want to have that kind of experience, another desire has to reach an accommodation with or overpower your opposition. Whether or not you believe in it scientifically is a side issue I think, that's not a reason to be against something happening. There are things that I strongly doubt are possible that I still very much want. Maybe my lack of faith is a barrier, but I had that kind of skepticism when I started with the premonitions, so I know it doesn't always have to be an insurmountable barrier.
Maybe meditating or something helps, but I've never done anything like that. My approach, for better or worse, is to address the obstacles that I see, then what happens happens. If you're still against shared dreaming because its something you don't want to happen, then that's the most important thing to look at. And my approach would be to respect it and reach an agreement with it rather than trying to overpower it.
I do remember - but it is more of a kind of argumentation line of mine - that if it really was possible - the consequences would be horrifying.
That does and did not mean I am actually afraid of it - it is more that I wonder, how people can be so blue-eyed in their wishful thinking to completely ignore the dark side, that would naturally be implied in such a way of thinking.
Same as next door - if I were a devout Christian, really taking it seriously - I had to stop LDing, because it is witchcraft and more.
This I tend to bring forth to make people think - not because I am actually worried.
Then was this Castaneda story, I told you and here - but that was in my youth, and I'm quite ashamed of being so stupidly superstitious, after having been much more reasonable at age 13. Whatever.
So no - I am not blocking anything.
Originally Posted by shadowofwind
I find the 'extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence' argument to be unconvincing. As scientists, we describe things, forming mathematical/mental simplified caricatures of things that allow us to predict behavior to an extent. But those models aren't isomorphic with the things they describe, always they work well within some defined scope but fail if we extrapolate too far. We know this, and understand this. Nature is a kind of math I think, but its not the algebra we use. So always there is something outside of our scientific understanding. Psychic phenomena are not extraordinary in human experience, they're just hard to control well enough to do predefined experiments with. What would be extraordinary to me, is if our scientific models become so inflated in importance in our minds that we expect them to be able to account for everything, and strongly resist seeing things that they don't already accommodate. We need evidence, but I don't think it needs to be as hard as what you're implying. Its a conversation, a relationship. How does someone prove to you that they are a friend, and not just a sociopath trying to use you? Its almost impossible. Every kind thing they do you can plausibly explain as being some kind of setup for a later betrayal. How can they prove it? It doesn't make sense to demand that kind of proof from people, and I don't think it makes sense to treat our souls that way either. We need strong evidence, but the evidence shouldn't have to overpower that kind of prejudice.
Well - it's not exactly "we" - I do not need anything - but I might consider something coming my way.
I don't believe it - and you are the one making a claim.
The evidence, I will consider, needed to persuade me - and really persuade me, because a lot of physics would have to be re-written to accommodate such phenomena.
Dark matter is also a really big not yet resolved issue of physics - and they dig themselves into a mountain to make sure, they don't by mistake detect cosmic radiation. Not sure, if you get my point, though.
Originally Posted by shadowofwind
However this works out, I'm going to stop challenging you to try shared dreaming, because I'm not going to try to tell you how open you have or haven't been. If we fail, that's a failure of my argument, and I'll have to make other arguments instead.
I need to work now. I had dreams last night, but if they involved you, they didn't involve you more than about 30%, and like all of my dreams in the last year or two they were weird and abstract. The people in them are not real people, the places are not real places, and do not even represent places or objects in a physical world. There were a couple of scenes that can at least be translated into something I can describe metaphorically, but if I share those I'll do it in a private message. I don't think my muse let me down, I think it tried to share a dream with you, and what happened was a fair reflection of our situation, if we can understand it. I think that to say anything sensible about my last night's dreams I need to describe a little more context of where I'm coming from, the desire that is driving my side of the interaction, since this is such a large part of what my dream-muse is responding to. I'll try to say a bit more at lunch.
I would like to keep this all out in the open - and out of areas, which wouldn't be suited for this thread.
It is meanwhile a public event, so to speak
But go ahead, whatever you have.
If you think, this is already the right moment of course.
And please take your time and don't let me keep you off work - I'm not working at the moment, obviously.
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