Thread: Astral Projection and shared dreaming is nonsense

Originally Posted by Barry

There is no possible way shared dreaming or astral projection is possible.

There is no experimental evidence that may suggest that shared dreaming or astral projection is possible.

Fixed.

Remember that when you participate in a forum, you intend to share your views or try to achieve higher knowledge by debating. But what you said there is only an opinion, because you have presented no evidence. When you affirm something it may become truth for others if you debate with them, an opinion is only true to yourself, it doesn't have to apply to other people.

Wait, there is a way to demonstrate it is real, but the technology is not up to date, ¿remember that there was an experiment where a screen could show something that you were imagining? Something very simple, between an O and an X. if you do this same test to two "experimental subjects" while they are dreaming, you could pick out coincedences and affirm with x% that shared dreaming is real

LD is created by using imagination and you will end with imagination... But some people claim to have precognitive dreams... even I had some. And some claim to share dreams. From what I was able to find it seems that I didn't have shared dreams.

But maybe I managed some meeting in astral with my brother. It is little questionable because he has a little different recolection of our meeting. And for him OBE ended while I traveled for around ten subjective minutes longer.

OBE is not created by imagination by me, I use concentration on body and feelings from it.
I don't have REM phase by at least some travels. Use your mobile to film your face during your exercises Other physiologic effect- my pupils are usually dilatated and it takes longer time for them to function as fast as before exercise. I'm not sure what to think of dust like aura I sometimes see after long relaxation and concetration or OBE.

It is a mistake to assume to know the truth about any concept or aspect of reality in an ultimate sense.

For all we know, we are brains sitting in a vat hooked up to the matrix.

Even having been exploring nonphysical realities via the out of body state for over half of my life, I still cannot honestly say that I know any ultimate truth of whether these experiences are real or what their true nature is, even after having experienced what I understood to be higher levels of truth and divine wisdom regarding the nature of the self and reality, even after experiencing these insights first hand, I still cannot honestly claim that these are ultimate truth.

Human experience is elusive by nature. Our consciousness is limited to a small fraction of reality and we base our understandings on fabricated labels and concepts that are not true reflections of reality, but simply reflections of our limited perceptions and beliefs.

It is therefor dishonest and delusional to make any claim of truth regarding the nature of these experiences other than one has had or has not had this type of experience. Assigning labels and conceptualizing the experiences will always fall short of ultimate truth. And of course, making claims with no experience is even more delusional.

Originally Posted by ViIe

I agree with OneUp, you would have to step out of your boundaries in order to learn it for yourself. No one here can convince you or Barry with words that AP exist.

Seriously, are you guys even reading my posts? I didn't say it doesn't or can't exist or even that I don't think it's a great possibility. I am making an objective statement on the scientific validity of these phenomena, that is all. I am actually very explorative and open minded. I've tried these things before, I've tried other things before, some I thought were totally retarded but might actually work. I've looked into chakras and kundalini awakenings and psychic powers and astral projection and OBE, it just so happens that in my experience, I can tell the difference between something my mind is falsely telling me and something it isn't. When a lot of people take high doses of hallucinogenic drugs they experience very odd sensations and even come into contact with other beings. I've come into contact with beings myself, and they seemed totally real at the time. However, unlike half the stupid fucks out there that are taking the drugs and have no idea how they work or the mind works believe without questions that these beings are real. I know better, they were simply facets of my mind. They seemed entirely real at the time, like I said, but I just have too much knowledge on how it all works and make it a regular habit to question everything. This includes my thoughts, acts, feelings, and experiences.

Why is it that many in Beyond Dreaming (really across the world, but I'm narrowing the population down a bit) forego this skepticism entirely? Do you not think it's healthy to question everything? At what point have you become God and lost the ability to be wrong? What about your fellow man, has he ascended to Godhood as well?

Originally Posted by VinceField

It is a mistake to assume to know the truth about any concept or aspect of reality in an ultimate sense.

For all we know, we are brains sitting in a vat hooked up to the matrix.

Even having been exploring nonphysical realities via the out of body state for over half of my life, I still cannot honestly say that I know any ultimate truth of whether these experiences are real or what their true nature is, even after having experienced what I understood to be higher levels of truth and divine wisdom regarding the nature of the self and reality, even after experiencing these insights first hand, I still cannot honestly claim that these are ultimate truth.

Human experience is elusive by nature. Our consciousness is limited to a small fraction of reality and we base our understandings on fabricated labels and concepts that are not true reflections of reality, but simply reflections of our limited perceptions and beliefs.

It is therefor dishonest and delusional to make any claim of truth regarding the nature of these experiences other than one has had or has not had this type of experience. Assigning labels and conceptualizing the experiences will always fall short of ultimate truth. And of course, making claims with no experience is even more delusional.

Oh my good God Jesus Christ in heaven, thank you.

Beyond Dreaming is seriously one of the only forums here that gets under my skin, sorry if I've been a dick to anybody.

Originally Posted by snoop

Seriously, are you guys even reading my posts? I didn't say it doesn't or can't exist or even that I don't think it's a great possibility. I am making an objective statement on the scientific validity of these phenomena, that is all. I am actually very explorative and open minded. I've tried these things before, I've tried other things before, some I thought were totally retarded but might actually work. I've looked into chakras and kundalini awakenings and psychic powers and astral projection and OBE, it just so happens that in my experience, I can tell the difference between something my mind is falsely telling me and something it isn't. When a lot of people take high doses of hallucinogenic drugs they experience very odd sensations and even come into contact with other beings. I've come into contact with beings myself, and they seemed totally real at the time. However, unlike half the stupid fucks out there that are taking the drugs and have no idea how they work or the mind works believe without questions that these beings are real. I know better, they were simply facets of my mind. They seemed entirely real at the time, like I said, but I just have too much knowledge on how it all works and make it a regular habit to question everything. This includes my thoughts, acts, feelings, and experiences.
.

I wonder if you read my entire post because I stated that you were being open minded to all the possibilities. As for the things you have tried and type of practices you have done I could not have known such things which is why I stated it to get an answer. I also want to state out that I am being objective as well. I am taking all the words you type in to consideration and that Astral projection can be a hallucination or just not possible. I would not have participate in this thread if I were closed minded and thought I could not be wrong.

So I'm trolling because I don't believe in something that has absolutely no scientific proof? All Atheists must just be trolling then. To the people who claim to have had experiences of Astral Projection and Shared Dreaming, how do you know it actually happened, and wasn't just your mind tricking you. By some peoples logic, if someone saw or experienced something it must make it real. So are what people see when they have hallucinations real? If someone claims to have seen/experienced something, it is up to them to prove it, not me to disprove it. I can't disprove that theirs a planet far away in the universe that is full of talking dogs, so does that mean there must be a planet full of talking dogs? I agree, that I can't say with certainty that Astral Projection and Shared dreaming doesn't exist, just like I can't say with certainty there isn't a planet full of talking dogs.

Originally Posted by Barry

So I'm trolling because I don't believe in something that has absolutely no scientific proof?

No, you can believe or disbelieve anything you wish without trolling.

But that was not what happened. What happened was that you walked into a place frequented by people, who tend to be open towards the idea of a universe larger than the regular physical part, and then you boldly stated, by implication, that the stuff they tend to talk about is all fake!

That was, in my opinion, neither sensitive, nor civilised.

Originally Posted by Voldmer

No, you can believe or disbelieve anything you wish without trolling.

But that was not what happened. What happened was that you walked into a place frequented by people, who tend to be open towards the idea of a universe larger than the regular physical part, and then you boldly stated, by implication, that the stuff they tend to talk about is all fake!

That was, in my opinion, neither sensitive, nor civilised.

People have views that may cause offense to me, but that doesn't mean I think they shouldn't be allowed to express them.

Originally Posted by Barry

People have views that may cause offense to me, but that doesn't mean I think they shouldn't be allowed to express them.

Who's attacking your right to state your opinion? You could simply have made clear, during your opening, that you were expressing your view. You did, however, state it as if it were a known fact.

Would you walk into a hall full of italians and shout "You italians are all delusional!" - even if you ment it?

Originally Posted by Voldmer

Who's attacking your right to state your opinion? You could simply have made clear, during your opening, that you were expressing your view. You did, however, state it as if it were a known fact.

Would you walk into a hall full of italians and shout "You italians are all delusional!" - even if you ment it?

Maybe I should have.

If my opinion risked a load of Italians beating me up, then no I wouldn't express it

1) No, I dismiss the ones that deny the possibility of it being proven so therefore it must exist as nuts. I call the ones that call me close-minded because I want evidence to support the claim instead of blindly believing in it nuts.

2) No, and even if I did I don't know or have any way of truly telling at this point in time if I have actually astral projected or if my mind was in a highly altered state and it was all just an impressive perceptual disturbance.

I've got a question for you now OneUp. How many hallucinogens have you tried? How many trips have you totally lost your mind and had your reality shattered? I've had hundreds, and they have all shown me without a doubt that shared dreaming, astral projection, OBE, etc. could be an illusion created by an altered state of consciousness. Why? Because I've had crazier shit than that happen to me on drugs, stuff far more impossible.

Okay now we are at a better understanding of each other I would say, and now I fully understand what you were saying in the first place.
As for your questions I have tried Weed, LSD, 25i, and 25c. Trips are one thing we have in common. The one thing I'd say we have different is that I view alot more things with curiosity knowing that im ignorant towards them while you view more things as just different states of the mind, and I in no way mean that as an insult. Right now I'm sort of in the middle of that area. I have the curiosity and I also know that there are many different states of mind so there could be endless possibilities. However, I quit doing psychedelics over 5 months ago because they started messing with me mentally, all because of that one night with that bad weed trip- the story I posted in your thread. I love tripping, but I don't know if Im mentally ready to try that stuff out again.
Like I also posted in your thread, "If you get the message then hang up the phone" ~ Alan Watts

So back to the topic I can see where you are coming from snoop, and I respect your point of view. You prove a really good point that if we can't truly investigate it with science then it will never be accepted. Sometimes I believe that we have to go beyond the realms of logic to understand certain things, kind of like those life lessons you learn while tripping. Do you see where I'm coming from man?

Barry said:

I agree, that I can't say with certainty that Astral Projection and Shared dreaming doesn't exist

Then your initial post is quite a contradiction:

There is no possible way shared dreaming or astral projection is possible.

Originally Posted by Voldmer

No, you can believe or disbelieve anything you wish without trolling.

But that was not what happened. What happened was that you walked into a place frequented by people, who tend to be open towards the idea of a universe larger than the regular physical part, and then you boldly stated, by implication, that the stuff they tend to talk about is all fake!

That was, in my opinion, neither sensitive, nor civilised.

It was indeed an unskillful and undoubtedly ego-driven decision to start a thread in the manner done here. It was insensitive and confrontational. But not only that, it was a bold display of ignorance. The poster is denying the existence of an aspect of reality that 1. he probably has never experienced himself, and 2. has never been proven to not exist by mainstream science.

But let's assume the poster wasn't simply trying to rile people up, or cause doubt or disharmony, or assert his viewpoint while putting down the views of others to feed his ego's cravings for superiority and his other attachment issues. Perhaps he was looking for an investigation into the validity of these experiences. A more wholesome approach would have been to state his beliefs, making it clear that he was coming from a place of belief, rather than making statements of objective universal truth, then perhaps share the reasons for his beliefs, and then politely ask other members to contribute their own opinions and experiences in search for a more enlightened perspective.

I believe it is important to engage one's life in ways which benefit everyone affected by one's actions, or in the very least in ways which do not cause suffering to one's self and others. It is crucial to be aware of one's intentions and the possible outcomes of one's actions and the ways in which one's self and others will be affected. It seems obvious that in this case, no consideration was taken into account before the initial post was made. Barry, I hope you do better in the future and learn to find the causes for true happiness and eliminate the habitual mental patterns and behaviors which bring about suffering to yourself and to those affected by your actions.

I still think it is pretty obvious that Barry was both somewhat trolling and challenging someone to prove him wrong at the same time. I mean, you might say it was a dumb way to do it, whatever, but you can't tell me this topic isn't getting a lot of responses right now.

Vincefield, it's funny that you say I'm insensitive and confrontational, then you go on to insult me throughout your post.

Also, I doubt I caused 'suffering' to people by giving my views.

You don't have to have*all*the facts, just the pertinent ones.

If you could create a human brain with your bare hands,could you create it simply by knowing the information we have now on the brain? You can't because certain things require a full understanding.That is what I meant by everything. I say this because there may be something in our brain that allows for shared dreaming to happen but we don't know of it yet.

Originally Posted by DawnEye11

If you could create a human brain with your bare hands,could you create it simply by knowing the information we have now on the brain? You can't because certain things require a full understanding.That is what I meant by everything. I say this because there may be something in our brain that allows for shared dreaming to happen but we don't know of it yet.

As long as you know everything about the brain, the tools you are using, and the materials needed, you know, all the pertinent facts to knowing how a brain works or how one is constructed, then why couldn't you? Besides, your example makes no sense. Make it with your bare hands? Do you mean like starting off with a few stem cells and getting them to differentiate into a functioning brain? If so we can already do that and we don't know half of anything about the brain yet. Well, I'm not positive we can do it with humans (I know we can do it with human neurons though), but we can with mice and other animals for a fact. An example more in line with your point is saying that in order to know how to do karate you have to know how physics and the whole universe works because fighting all hinges on this. This is incorrect, you only need to know the facts pertinent to fighting in the specific style of karate, you don't need to know the formula for calculating speed or Einstein's theories of relativity. Am I wrong? Why do you think so if you do?

The thing that proves me most right is that we are capable of doing anything at all. How are we capable of creating or doing anything if at first we have such a limited understanding that we don't even have a concept of what it is we are trying to do? Yet, here we are, an advanced civilization capable of speech and inventing ever more incredible technology, architecture, and pushing the body to the limits.

I said human brain. How does my example not make sense? When I said bare hands I mean't using your own two hands to make a human brain. I never said anything about it applying to karate. It's more about what things are needed to build a exact copy, where their placed,what their used for and etc. I didn't mean full understanding in that broad sense that implies knowing how the universe works. Also,I'm not telling you this as a argument, I'm telling you this so that you understand what I was trying to say.

Originally Posted by Barry

Vincefield, it's funny that you say I'm insensitive and confrontational, then you go on to insult me throughout your post.

Also, I doubt I caused 'suffering' to people by giving my views.

I am sorry if you felt insulted. This was not my intention. I simply stated what the likely motives would be of an individual posting in the manner you did. Keep in mind that I gave you the benefit of the doubt, stating.. "Let's assume the poster wasn't simply trying to..." and then went on to list the probable motives. I did not say outright that these were in fact your motives, because I do not know this for sure. However, my first statement that your post was unskillful, confrontational, insensitive, and likely driven by your ego, that statement I am rather sure of, if our modern-day knowledge of human psychology is anywhere accurate. Again, not meant as an insult, but rather to provide you with a perspective that may shed some light onto some aspects of your self and your behavior that you may not be completely aware of.

Whether or not you actually caused suffering to others is not so much the issue, as is your intention to cause suffering. You intended to start a confrontation, boldly denying the experiences of others with no wisdom to back it up, undoubtably knowing you would upset or agitate at least some members and thus causing a degree of suffering/stress/negativity to arouse in them. The motivations underlying this type of behavior are clear, I have seen it many times before.

Again, I apologize if I offended you. My intention was simply to present some ideas that perhaps you could someday benefit from if you choose to take them into consideration. Perhaps you will gain a deeper level of insight into the causes of your behavior and will start to consider the underlying intentions of your actions and how they will likely affect others, and purify your thoughts and actions so that they give rise to wholesome states in yourself and others, rather that unwholesome states. I understand that this situation alone is not a big deal. However, it is likely a sign of habitual unwholesome behaviors, and may very well be a reflection of your usual behavior as a whole, so I believe it is in your best interest to make these ideas known to you.

Metta

Originally Posted by Sageous

Wouldn't cognitive brain activity cease or decrease dramatically when a person projects out of his body? I would think that change would be quite detectible, whether the experience is subjective or not.

Anyone know if this has ever been looked at?

Yes. I was looking at an old review of this same thing last night. let me see if I can find it.

Miss Z

Originally Posted by VinceField

I am sorry if you felt insulted. This was not my intention. I simply stated what the likely motives would be of an individual posting in the manner you did. Keep in mind that I gave you the benefit of the doubt, stating.. "Let's assume the poster wasn't simply trying to..." and then went on to list the probable motives. I did not say outright that these were in fact your motives, because I do not know this for sure. However, my first statement that your post was unskillful, confrontational, insensitive, and likely driven by your ego, that statement I am rather sure of, if our modern-day knowledge of human psychology is anywhere accurate. Again, not meant as an insult, but rather to provide you with a perspective that may shed some light onto some aspects of your self and your behavior that you may not be completely aware of.

Whether or not you actually caused suffering to others is not so much the issue, as is your intention to cause suffering. You intended to start a confrontation, boldly denying the experiences of others with no wisdom to back it up, undoubtably knowing you would upset or agitate at least some members and thus causing a degree of suffering/stress/negativity to arouse in them. The motivations underlying this type of behavior are clear, I have seen it many times before.

Again, I apologize if I offended you. My intention was simply to present some ideas that perhaps you could someday benefit from if you choose to take them into consideration. Perhaps you will gain a deeper level of insight into the causes of your behavior and will start to consider the underlying intentions of your actions and how they will likely affect others, and purify your thoughts and actions so that they give rise to wholesome states in yourself and others, rather that unwholesome states. I understand that this situation alone is not a big deal. However, it is likely a sign of habitual unwholesome behaviors, and may very well be a reflection of your usual behavior as a whole, so I believe it is in your best interest to make these ideas known to you.

Metta

Thats nice of you to be so polite, but the fact of the matter is that barry was in the religious section and a similar comment was made over there, then he came over here to drop his load off in short matter.

No one has even asked barry to explain his understanding of what AP and AT, OOBE and shared dreaming is. Perhaps he is just misinformed.

Someone here should run a week long study for AT/AP and OOBE attempts for a week and have the participants post their experiences here. It might bring a lot of new info and discussion to light.

What a huge amount of action for such a simple OP. Good job Barry.

OK, I will contribute my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by Barry

There is no possible way shared dreaming or astral projection is possible.

There is no possible way love or fear is possible.

Prove it? No need as we all experience those things. Yet, if we want objective proof, all we can show is changes in action and changes in brain or hormonal function. Those changes do not prove love or fear, they only prove changes happened.

What if only 1 in 100 of us experienced love and fear? Kind of the same situation.


How about true scientific method? You can not disprove the items in question, so you do not state it is not possible. You can state that you can see no reasonable mechanism. You state that you feel it is grossly unlikely.

Originally Posted by sivason

What a huge amount of action for such a simple OP. Good job Barry.

OK, I will contribute my 2 cents.



There is no possible way love or fear is possible.

Prove it? No need as we all experience those things. Yet, if we want objective proof, all we can show is changes in action and changes in brain or hormonal function. Those changes do not prove love or fear, they only prove changes happened.

What if only 1 in 100 of us experienced love and fear? Kind of the same situation.


How about true scientific method? You can not disprove the items in question, so you do not state it is not possible. You can state that you can see no reasonable mechanism. You state that you feel it is grossly unlikely.

Everyone experiences fear though, including all animals. Physical changes can also be seen and experienced due to fear, such as getting goosebumps and high adrenaline. Scientists are easily able to induce fear. Astral projection and shared dreaming on the other hand has only been reported by a handful of people, and there are no physical changes to the body. If say 90% of the population had experienced astral projection and shared dreaming, but there was no scientific evidence, then I would probably believe them. My opinion is not going to change, believing in dream realms is nonsense.









Vincefield thank you for being so polite. Maybe I made the post because of deep seated psycholoical problems.

I had today a strange dream, I think it was provoked by this discussion

I left my body to travel to higher dimension. Firstly I got to corridor I know from one of my OBEs then I got through it and there was something like station where the souls of people were cleaned (by what looked like fire) after ending their existence on earth. I didn't need that(now I think it was because I was only traveller). I tried to help some man who has big angst from the process. Then I got higher, my consciousness changed. I was on place where beings were existing after their dead an mortal plane(physical dimension). I met there some wise man and I asked him questions... but it looked like I alone had all answers on questions I asked. So I asked about soul travel, astral travel, parallel existences higher dimensions... Then I answered my questions and asked that man if I'm right or not.
I got conclusions like:
1. we are existing in parallel in many dimensions and we will merge our existences together when time comes and lessons will be learned...
2. It is not my brain that thinks, brain is only a tool to access body for manipulation and to function in this dimension... (hmmm... when someone is in coma, is soul traveling? Some people will not wake from coma, some will. Is there brain damage, or brain can't for some reason restart to consciousness, or is soul out of body and it doesn't feel connection? Because I'm not entirely without sensory input from physical body when I travel.)

I asked for my dead father... Answer was image of him(he looked disoriented and quite different), but no further information.
I was told I belong between chosen people because of effort I invest into improving myself...(maybe I have hidden messiah complex? )
It is probable that that wise man and all things I saw was only my subconsciousness talking to me. It was not normal OBE, it felt more like dream.

OK... How could we prove that soul exist and are we using soul for moving around during OBE?

I've got a serious question, how do people know that there Astral Projections/OBE's were not just normal dreams? If I thought about astral projection long enough, I'd eventually have an Astral projection, but I'd wake up and realize it wasn't real, and was just a dream.