Originally Posted by Lang
Occipitalred, what are your thoughts on the book, "Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self by Robert Waggoner"?
I enjoy reading people's experiences with dreams and that book is full of that. I guess you are right to bring it up, he kind of has this similar journey as Kixerus in the first third of the book. He discovers lucid dreaming, discovers his abilities in dreams... and then... discovers limitations. He comes to the conclusion that some DCs are independent sentient agents... and then that the Source of the dream is itself a sentient agent. Well, I do have thoughts about that.
If you are in a state to observe thoughts as they appear and go spontaneously... if you were then, after the fact, to wonder, "why did I have those specific thoughts?" Perhaps you could determine some of the factors and you could concede that you don't know all the factors. But overall, "I" am not the cause without a cause of my thoughts, emotions, and impulses. They sort of arise on their own... from the subconscious. This is the case for everything, (even things as simple as the impulse to go get a snack as you feel hungry).
But Robert Waggoner and many of us, we don't realize that. We only really are confronted with that in dreams when presented with such amazing dream content that we can't imagine being the cause without a cause that created it. For Waggoner, that's some non-complying DCs and fun mystical themed dreams with dissociated voices. For me, it's my second intentional lucid dream: I come across a tree and I am amazed by the detail. I touch a leaf and the surrealist moisture rolls onto my finger. I am in awe. A DC makes some vulgar commentary on the scene and distracts me. There was no doubt in this dream. I did not conceive and create these details like a meticulous artist. Yet, this sublime experience arose from the same place as the vulgar comments from the passerby (she said "my dog shat many seeds of these trees on her backyard, cool, huh?"). Another example is recently in an encounter with a DC with a dream guide role. I surrendered to him. He took control over the dream and led to a dream that was surprisingly very relevant to me (in terms of teaching me something). When I explained to a friend, they just missed the point of the dream. This is because the real value of the dream is MY interpretation. Like any spontaneous thought you feel you have or you feel some other entity within you has, it's all the same, and at the end, you interpret it. Anything a DC says, however surprising, is something you thought.
It's so hard to explain because it's so hard to understand intuitively... How can you imagine a person as a "thought form"? That's so hard to think of. I still can't do it satisfyingly! It's so easy to get immersed in a show, and live vicariously through fictional characters and form some unilateral relationship with them! And parasocial relationships with celebrities! We're just wired this way. I still don't know how to see past that illusion when meeting DCs. (Please help me with this. I'll be very grateful when I can).
But when Waggoner, Kixerus, or I encounter a DC and perceive them as a person... if we tell them "you are not real, I am dreaming!" doesn't it make sense that our belief/feeling that this is a person nonetheless will lead them to "surprisingly" deny it: "No, I am a real person!" and SHOCK we respond with "omg... I guess you are?" Then, this can only assure us that it will continue to happen... When Waggoner continues exploring asking the dream questions, he has already made the assumption that there is a second sentient agent present. Anything that ensues will concur with that belief, no surprise there.
About a second sentient agent within our mind, I do not think that goes against what we have discovered in neuroscience. Look up Split-Brain experiments. Sam Harris' book "Waking up: A guide to spirituality without religion" has helped me advance my conclusions on those types of experiments. So I think it's for sure possible that we have overlapping consciousnesses.... But the subconscious being conscious... it's possible. But it arise from the causal question...
Why is there a universe rather than not? What caused it? (Some answer gods, but then, why are there gods rather than not?)
Why is there consciousness rather than not?
The problem with answering these causal questions is if we "create" an answer from our imagination, there's no reason not to continue doing so eternally. In my dream example, who created that amazing tree??? My subconscious as a conscious agent? But in that case, what is their experience like? Do they also think like I do? If they meditate, can't they themselves come to the realization that all their thoughts and creative outbursts also arise spontaneously? Well it should be so! So, my enlightened subconscious would then wonder, where has the idea of the tree come from? Well, from the subconscious' subconscious obviously! And then we can imagine an infinite amount of layers of subconscious consciousnesses. My point is not that there can not be another sentient agent within us, just that, at some point, this game becomes irrelevant and must end somewhere... and it might really end with us. Our subconscious might well be... unconscious. It's so difficult to imagine what the subconscious is like, I still don't get it. But I think resolving this dilemma by treating the subconscious simply like another entity... is not a lucid solution (if not at least a sincere attempt at making sense of something incomprehensible).
I see I'm writing a lot, so I'll give it a break. But the rest of Wagonner's book is about personal experiences that hint at magic. That's all a lot of fun. But, he has a degree in psychology. He was president of an association for the study of dreams! Why am I reading personal stories? Why am I not reading a review of peer-reviewed studies on the matter? He tells a story of a woman who effortlessly asks her subconscious to heal her cancer in a dream and... the next day, she is completely healed. Obviously, he wrote this in his book to hint that our subconscious has the power to heal cancers... so where is that study? Why are we not living in a world where health is attended to by spiritual specialists? What this woman did was very basic. Actually, he does elaborate a list of important factors for success. They all seem reasonable and easy to practice. All in all, I believe he is sincere and that he shares many of my fantasies but I think it's clouding his mind.
Originally Posted by Kixerus
I think I know what you mean. In deep meditation you have a profound awareness of your environment as well as your thoughts. I believe what you're saying is that thoughts kind of originate on their own and we merely assign value to them. I'm personally unsure if this is the case or not. I used to have random thoughts pop into my mind all the time during my waking life, but as I trained myself and thought about my thinking, my thoughts have become far less random.
Yes, you have some power to focus your attention here or there. Yes, you can focus your thoughts on a topic. But, just observe your thoughts (random or not). They're like birds flying in your field of vision and then out of it.
Originally Posted by Kixerus
This is very interesting. I suppose you are correct in stating that to have 100% control you would also be in control of every trivial detail in a dream. This in itself could pose as a problem when you spend more time thinking about the minor details of the dream than actually dreaming. I guess what I really meant when I said 100% control is not that exactly, but having control of the major details of the dream. Like if I were to want to have a car in a dream I wouldn't be concerned what model or make it was, just that it was a car. What I experience though is opposition to even getting a car of any kind.
If we go back to the meditation analogy. It might be that sometimes, it's a bit harder to quiet our thoughts. They might arise more spontaneously and more randomly than other times. Especially since you are not necessarily meditating and quieting your mind in these dreams, but in the middle of sleep (with your mental faculties dulled) and in the middle of action. If I'm immersed in a narrative, my mind might be more creative and manifest diverse thoughts relevant to the context.
I think in those situations, if you have the faculties, observe the dream with an understanding that the contents of your consciousness are always in flux. They arise and go spontaneously, due to factors unknown and factors known. Then, refocus your intent.
Originally Posted by Kixerus
You make some good points. I'm curious of what your philosophical beliefs are. I know that in solipsism only one's mind is sure to exist and other minds cannot be known to exist. Every one in the waking world could just be a part of me and merely seem to be separate, though this is unlikely. I "know" other people have their own wills by observing them and seeing that my will does not directly influence their wills. Likewise, in dreams some characters don't seem influenced by my will at all - so I believe they are not part of my psyche, though I could be wrong.
I tried to answer some of that in my reply to Lang and I wrote so much already so I'll hope it's enough, haha.
Originally Posted by Kixerus
I've mastered what works for me, but I am completely open to any new techniques. When I try to talk to these entities, they have nothing to say and attack me, as opposed to regular dream characters. Some of them I am able to overcome, others not so much.
I think it's important to re-enter that state of observation. Otherwise, the minute you experience the feeling of resistance, it can easily amplify and render you powerless, especially if you start believing it.
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