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    1. #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      Splitting awareness is impossible psychologically. Period.
      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      Splitting awareness is impossible psychologically. Period.


      Hey

      Bosnak says we are not a single (unified) personally but a collection of dissociative states.*

      And

      Our dreams are populated with ... let me copy anf past s bit from the half hour interview:


      ***

      Interviewer: Natasha Mitchell:

      You know, Sigmund Freud and Karl Jung certainly conceived of dreams as sort of sub-personalities. In Freud's case I guess a whole bunch of repressed sub-personalities. Instead you describe dreams as forms of intelligence, and even alien intelligences, and I wonder if you're taking us into the realms of gnomes and flying saucers here.

      Robert Bosnak:

      Absolutely not.

      They are alien to what I call the habitual self, what we habitually think about ourselves, so when I have certain feelings, certain responses, then I say that is my response.

      Now in dreaming you see that there is not only an intelligent I, the one that walks around, for instance, down the street, but when you see in dreams there are other people walking also on the street that display intelligence.

      And what I'm going from is, as Corbin did, from a radical form of phenomenology, I'm just trying to look at the phenomena. As I look at the phenomena the person who comes towards me in the street appears to be a carrier of a certain kind of consciousness. It's not the consciousness that I'm identified with, it's another kind of consciousness.

      And what I'm trying to do in my work is to see if we can partake of that consciousness and learn something about non-ego, non-habitual forms of consciousness.

      Interviewer: Natasha Mitchell:

      Now this really challenges our core sense that we are a singular self, a single identity contained within a singular skin.

      Robert Bosnak:

      Yes it does completely.

      Actually it is becoming more or less recognised within many sides and fields and schools of psychoanalysis that we are a very dissociable collection of states.

      This used to be seen as abnormal psychology

      but

      we begin to see more and more that that is more or less the norm.

      If it becomes extreme then you get people with what used to be called multiple-personality. So then the states are completely disassociated, they have no contact with each other.

      In the normal way the states are relatively independent and autonomous and there is contact between them,

      but

      it is not that I am a single self that over/during my life fractures.

      No,

      I am as far as I can see it,

      a multiplicity of states that is in a constant state of interaction.

      ***

      Listen to the interview or read the transcript. ..here:

      ***

      Dreams: the body alive! (Part 1 of 2) - All In The Mind - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

      ***
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    2. #52
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      I love it!
      I defend that concept too. For example, a DC is a part of our brain neurons, so it is conscious and intelligent. I talk about it a lot.
      But, this may not be the same thing as splitting attention between DCs. We simply can't have that attention on those intelegent DCs at the same time. Our brain simply cannot do it! That is what I meant by impossible psychologically.

      tl;dr: Having multiple intelligent consciousness doesn't mean having the ability to split attention between them at the same instant.
      Last edited by LouaiB; 01-23-2014 at 09:18 AM. Reason: tl;dr
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    3. #53
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      Yes

      I heard on the radio that ... we all know that statement

      "You dirty old man. You've got a one track mind you have"

      The Dr on the radio said EVERYONE only has a one track mind. Apparently the mind can switch between "tracks" very quickly. But it is only on one track in any given moment.

      So yes

      Splitting awareness is impossible psychologically. Period.


      But But But

      When I had my Enlightenment experience (1975) I went (physicality) smaller and smaller and smaller. My body felt like it was shrinking, fast and very smoothly. I was 15 then 14 then 13 year old, down, down, down to Zero. Then I lost awareness. Like I didn't have a usable container (brain) to contain awareness, (maybe)

      Other stuff happened.

      But when I was up and moving again. ...

      Well, it was brought to my attention that I was merged with all life for about a 2 kilometer sphere.

      I was (intimately) every birdy, fishy, grub, lizard, person, plant.

      It was extremely subtle.

      Nothing like you or I could imagine.

      One expects such an experience would drive one crazy. Like the deafening inner sound of all those noises and the inner visual overload of seeing what all those multitudes are seeing.

      And I could

      But it was gentle and subtle. Totally unobtrusive.

      Mun sent me to do some shopping. I never looked at the note (shopping list) she gave me. I just reached up again and again taking products of the shelf.

      When I got home she called me out of my room and asked me why did I buy this and this. I said that I just knew to.

      She looked at me blank for a few moments and said "no" tell me why you got these items because I realised that I didn't put them on the list. And (jokingly) I tried telepathically asking you to get them.

      Then I said to mum...."I just "realised (guru maragi's) knowledge, mum. I'm one with you and everyone. It is fading now but it was very strong after meditation.

      (End of history story)

      So

      I know that one can bee many living creature's at once. It is a place of no-thought. No independent self (ego).

      And it feels more ordinary than normal consciousness. And you don't need to think cos everything is subtly known. Everything flows.

      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      I love it!
      I defend that concept too. For example, a DC is a part of our brain neurons, so it is conscious and intelligent. I talk about it a lot.
      But, this may not be the same thing as splitting attention between DCs. We simply can't have that attention on those intelegent DCs at the same time. Our brain simply cannot do it! That is what I meant by impossible psychologically.

      tl;dr: Having multiple intelligent consciousness doesn't mean having the ability to split attention between them at the same instant.
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    4. #54
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      Havago:
      Can we do that on demand in LDs?
      I fill my heart with fire, with passion, passion for what makes me nostalgic. A unique perspective fuels my fire, makes me discover new passions, more nostalgia. I love it.

      "People tell dreamers to reality check and realize this is the real world and not one of fantasies, but little do they know that for us Lucid Dreamers, it all starts when the RC fails"
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    5. #55
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      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      Havago:
      Can we do that on demand in LDs?

      I am not a Lucid Dreamer. When this happens spontaneously I don't like it.

      I think there are many species of dreamer. The same way that there are many species of animal (aquatic fish, land elephants, sky birds, underground rabits and blind moles) and so on.

      I'm a hipnagoger (hahaha)
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    6. #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dthoughts View Post
      Please don't move this thread to Beyond Dreaming. Credibility is so hard to find in that subforum it is viewed as a playground for silly ideas. Besides, there's so much traffic on this forum. I see that as fresh meat ready to be trained into lucid dreaming pros. I'm tired of being muffled away at the BD!

      Cut the crap, stop bickering and just try these techniques if you are being skeptical.

      Lets raise the standard guys,

      I want to set up an experiment we can all do together.

      Here's a hypothesis about splitting awareness; Splitting consciousness is a form of energy manipulation. You can only split your consciousness as many times as that energy allows you to (we'll call it energy in this experiment, we do not know what energy actually consists of, atleast not yet).

      I suspect splitting consciousness actually will feel like you are cutting into an organic body. In my experience which was brief and wasn't very lucid, having multiple awareness is like playing a video in split-screen but weirder because there is no actual screen. And no players.. that is the weirdest thing. Who is doing all the playing?

      I advice you to try this for yourself and notice how incredibly difficult it is to accurately translate these sensations in words.. It is astounding, no wonder Mylenes is not taken seriously. It is not that he is lying. It is just that words fail to accurately convey the truth.

      To test this hypothesis of mine we could simply have different lucid dreamers of this forum perform the task of splitting consciousness into as much sides as they can and report to us any sensations and detail for further analysis.

      ^ It is that easy.

      WN: How exactly do you begin dilating time in a lucid dream? ]

      I go to a town in the Dreamsphere game and sit under a clock tower and meditate, listening to the second hand, making it tick slowly.

      Like i said, i can think of ways to prove time dilation in a scientific fashion. Just takes a little creativity, what we need now is lucidity. Together we can move mountains in terms of lucid dreaming research. I really hope someone besides me is going to try splitting awareness in a lucid dream ;
      We cannot scientifically prove that anything can or cannot be done in a dream, because there is only anecdotal evidence, or in other words, it's all hearsay. In my opinion, trying to prove whether something can or cannot be done in a dream is pointless.

      The one who says, "It cannot be done," should not interrupt the one doing it. -ancient proverb
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    7. #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by gab View Post
      Thank you Sageous, classy guy as always.

      Didn't wanna name names, still don't, but you were not the one that prompted me to make my plea.
      Obviously it is aimed at me I suppose but I feel some ideas and claims must be criticized to create a healthy environment to discuss things. I am not here to flame I am trying to be as reasonable as I can but I feel its necessary that someone calls out people when they're clearly over-exaggerating to say the least.
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      A student obviously has to develop a level of trust in the teacher that what the teacher is telling the student is in fact the truth. Otherwise, there would be no point in listening to the teacher.

      I see the main issue at hand here is the Shared dreaming aspect of it all. Let me just point out that (AFAIK) Mylenes didn't always believe in shared dreaming and was still claiming to apply some of these techniques. You can simply have subconscious processes that seem sentient to the dreamer. Just like Havago's quote from the interview. That is just another way to look at it. I know Carl Jung recognized entities that are not his normal self. There is no reason to belief these non-selves Carl Jung is talking about are not capable of attacking the dreamer.

      Electrode, perhaps more lucidity and more control comes with more challenge from the dream itself? There is no logical reason to suppose more control means all fighting in dreams seizes to exist?
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    9. #59
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      Okay, Dthoughts, let's skip the crap, and look into this ourselves! One big "but" must be mentioned, though, which I think separates your experiment from Mylynes' themes:

      Quote Originally Posted by Dthoughts View Post
      Here's a hypothesis about splitting awareness; Splitting consciousness is a form of energy manipulation. You can only split your consciousness as many times as that energy allows you to (we'll call it energy in this experiment, we do not know what energy actually consists of, atleast not yet).

      I suspect splitting consciousness actually will feel like you are cutting into an organic body. In my experience which was brief and wasn't very lucid, having multiple awareness is like playing a video in split-screen but weirder because there is no actual screen. And no players.. that is the weirdest thing. Who is doing all the playing?
      I think what you're saying here is that you can split your consciousness multiple times, into smaller and smaller pieces, but by asking "Who is doing all the playing?" you are conceding that all the while there is still a singular self-awareness doing the splitting, and then viewing and maintaining all those consciousnesses.

      Okay, that sounds fine, and quite doable. I've encountered dreams from several locations at once, or different dreams simultaneously, and I have a feeling that it might happen accidentally in anyone's NLD's on occasion and in mentally unhealthy people quite often, simply due to occasionally "crossed wires" that pile schemata on top of each other. So by that measure your experiment seems sound, and well worth attempting. But:

      It also sounds like you're leaving intact the one part that Mylynes implies he splits, and actually must split in order to dilate time (which I think was where this was being used): self-awareness. As you may have said somewhere above, though it is quite similar to natural awareness, consciousness is different from self-awareness, and I agree. But in order to dilate time, wouldn't you need to split your self-awareness multiple times as well as consciousness, essentially creating a whole bunch of fully independent "you's?"

      Of course, doing so would only make time move at its normal pace for a whole bunch of unique people, with no cumulative "slowing," because there can be no overriding "You" to appreciate all your little "you's" experiences. There can't be, because if you retain your self-awareness, then you did not split it out multiple times. There can be only one "You," no matter how many DC "sensors" you've got working for you, in no matter how many dreams. Why? Because all that stuff is being driven by one mind, one brain, and that mind in its totality is you -- self-awareness is the acknowledgment of that totality.

      So, in order to split self-awareness, you would need to create separate entities, all of whom believe whole-heartedy that they are the unique individual occupying this particular mind and brain, that the entire dreamscape they purvey is theirs alone (and yes, this has reportedly happened in advanced cases of split-personality schizophrenia -- but I assume neither you nor Mylynes suggest we go there!).

      I'm not sure that made sense, but let me quote Louai, because he hit it right on the head in six words:

      Splitting awareness is impossible psychologically. Period.
      ... and splitting self-awareness, I think, is what Mylynes was talking about -- just like Naruto does it in the cartoon.

      So I recommend that everyone try Dthoughts' experiment -- and please report in your results! It's well worth doing, and can only help you in your dream control skills. I like the carving the energy image as a nice working metaphor for getting started, but just imagining yourself in more than one place at once is a fine place to start as well.

      And again, though splitting your consciousness is an interesting experience, it is by no means splitting your self-awareness, and will have no significant impact on your perception of time.

      I advice you to try this for yourself and notice how incredibly difficult it is to accurately translate these sensations in words.. It is astounding, no wonder Mylenes is not taken seriously. It is not that he is lying. It is just that words fail to accurately convey the truth.
      I'm sorry, I'm not buying the "he's just too advanced and mystical for words" argument. Mylynes is offering this as a tutorial, not a memoir. If he couldn't find the words, then he shouldn't have announced he was going to do a tutorial. And for what it's worth, the "too advanced for words" mystical excuse is usually used when mystics say nothing about their experiences (because they literally can't), and not when they present clear narratives of them.

      Also, any advanced process or exploration in LD'ing is incredibly difficult, though if you are simply talking about splitting your consciousness, or in a sense multiplying your points for perception, I can think of several things that are a whole lot harder

      To test this hypothesis of mine we could simply have different lucid dreamers of this forum perform the task of splitting consciousness into as much sides as they can and report to us any sensations and detail for further analysis.

      ^ It is that easy.

      WN: How exactly do you begin dilating time in a lucid dream? ]

      Like i said, i can think of ways to prove time dilation in a scientific fashion. Just takes a little creativity, what we need now is lucidity. Together we can move mountains in terms of lucid dreaming research. I really hope someone besides me is going to try splitting awareness in a lucid dream ;
      Sounds good; let's see what happens!
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      I think what you're saying here is that you can split your consciousness multiple times, into smaller and smaller pieces, but by asking "Who is doing all the playing?" you are conceding that all the while there is still a singular self-awareness doing the splitting, and then viewing and maintaining all those consciousnesses.
      I am not denying a self doing the splitting. I do suggest the self-awareness doing the splitting might not be able to maintain control of conscious behaviour on all the clones. Idk, but I guess it is the same reason you and Louia say psychologically impossible?

      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Of course, doing so would only make time move at its normal pace for a whole bunch of unique people, with no cumulative "slowing," because there can be no overriding "You" to appreciate all your little "you's" experiences. There can't be, because if you retain your self-awareness, then you did not split it out multiple times. There can be only one "You," no matter how many DC "sensors" you've got working for you, in no matter how many dreams. Why? Because all that stuff is being driven by one mind, one brain, and that mind in its totality is you -- self-awareness is the acknowledgment of that totality.
      Please, bare with me on what i think is happening in this situation; You split your dream to include two dreams.. Have one dream of riding a flying unicorn while the other surfs on a rainbow for two hours. In this fashion you have just split time itself. You now have the experience of 2 hours riding a unicorn and 2 hours of surfing a rainbow seperately. More importantly, the original time used is extented in relationship to the original scenario of one single lucid dream.

      Trick here for me is trying to imagine the cognitive power to process all the tasks in different dreams.
      It is for this reason that I believe that if you succeed in this, all the copies perform tasks without conscious control from the oberserver.
      The focus/awareness/experience stays in the viewpoint from the total-self. It just now includes a sense of awareness in all the clones it originally created.

      I include a sense of smell/taste/vision etc. on all those clones but it lacks a conscious thought it just simply going about its 'spooky' business.

      It is an esoteric belief that god actually created the world in a similar fasion. This raises doubts and adds to the philosophy that our free will is more of an illusion. But I think that from our conscious viewpoint it might give us more perspective about who is doing the playing"and who created the console.

      So, in order to split self-awareness, you would need to create separate entities, all of whom believe whole-heartedy that they are the unique individual occupying this particular mind and brain, that the entire dreamscape they purvey is theirs alone (and yes, this has reportedly happened in advanced cases of split-personality schizophrenia -- but I assume neither you nor Mylynes suggest we go there!).
      :\ that split-personality case is rather extreme. I think actually, the scizophrenic person experiencing this is lacking the lucidity to realize he is creating the sensation for himself. As well-informed lucid dreamers i suppose we won't have to worry about that here!

      I'm sorry, I'm not buying the "he's just too advanced and mystical for words" argument. Mylynes is offering this as a tutorial, not a memoir. If he couldn't find the words, then he shouldn't have announced he was going to do a tutorial. And for what it's worth, the "too advanced for words" mystical excuse is usually used when mystics say nothing about their experiences (because they literally can't), and not when they present clear narratives of them.
      Maybe not, but atleast Mylenes is trying to convey his most-likely not completely made up experiences. I guess i'll just keep pointing out that words often make it difficult to convey true experience, and such is especially so for topics such as in this thread.

      Also, any advanced process or exploration in LD'ing is incredibly difficult, though if you are simply talking about splitting your consciousness, or in a sense multiplying your points for perception, I can think of several things that are a whole lot harder
      Wow, i thought splitting perception is an incredibly hard thing to do. all the more reason for others to try it i guess It actually is hard to me, I tried to just now and I think that this might be a lot easier in dream-state. I suppose it helps practicing now, to perform the dream control when i actually find myself in a dream later. I'm curious though, and just to get this thread back on-topic which says from the thread title it is about dream control in it's totality, could you please name a few skills that are harder to master than just splitting perception?
      Last edited by Dthoughts; 01-24-2014 at 01:06 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dthoughts View Post
      I am not denying a self doing the splitting. I do suggest the self-awareness doing the splitting might not be able to maintain control of conscious behaviour on all the clones. Idk, but I guess it is the same reason you and Louia say psychologically impossible?
      Yes.

      Please, bare with me on what i think is happening in this situation; You split your dream to include two dreams.. Have one dream of riding a flying unicorn while the other surfs on a rainbow for two hours. In this fashion you have just split time itself. You now have the experience of 2 hours riding a unicorn and 2 hours of surfing a rainbow seperately. More importantly, the original time used is extented in relationship to the original scenario of one single lucid dream.
      Okay, with that example I think I get it... maybe. What you're saying, I think, is that if you have multiple dreams going on, the time spent in them, upon remembering them later, is cumulative. Now that is something I hadn't considered, but it does make sense on paper anyway. Given that in the end all our experiences are memories, if we remember two (or more) separate events going on in a single night -- even if during that night you were only able to be present, self-awareness-wise, in one dream at a time -- and combine that with memory's tendency to "fill in the blanks," you will indeed have created an extra couple hours of life that otherwise would not exist in your memory. Interesting! The only problem with it, though, is that you are still not "living" that extra time when it is happening, because your self-awareness (aka "You") will still have an overall sense of time, no matter how much is going on. Excellent concept though; I only hope I properly understand it!

      Trick here for me is trying to imagine the cognitive power to process all the tasks in different dreams.
      It is for this reason that I believe that if you succeed in this, all the copies perform tasks without conscious control from the observer.
      The focus/awareness/experience stays in the viewpoint from the total-self. It just now includes a sense of awareness in all the clones it originally created.
      Here's where it is time, I think, to have some faith in your unconscious, your dreaming mind.

      Provide it with firm enough schemata to work with, DC's that mean something to you, and then let it run the show while you're away at the other dreams. It's not as hard as it sounds, especially if you consider it is likely going on all the time in NLD's and in waking life.

      Your unconscious has always got several things on the burners, waiting for you to consciously access. For instance, in waking life you could be working on a particular problem or suffering through some social issue, while at the same time having a chat with an old friend on the phone but you're also driving your car. Odds are you're focused on your conversation, but the problem and issues are still in memory, waiting, while you drive the car without a thought. Suddenly someone pulls out in front of you, and all your attention is instantly on driving. Yet your conversation with your friend is still in cue, as is everything else... your unconscious is simply idling the various schemata you're processing while your consciousness juggles their respective priority, calling them up as needed.

      That was probably a clumsy example, but suffice it to say your brain is already wired to handle a bunch of scenarios at once; asking it to do so in dreams as well is probably not too tall an order.

      I include a sense of smell/taste/vision etc. on all those clones but it lacks a conscious thought it just simply going about its 'spooky' business.
      A much better example than the one I just offered, I think!

      It is an esoteric belief that god actually created the world in a similar fashion. This raises doubts and adds to the philosophy that our free will is more of an illusion. But I think that from our conscious viewpoint it might give us more perspective about who is doing the playing"and who created the console.
      Agreed... and advanced LD'ing is an excellent tool for discovering that console, finding out who is manning it (i.e., us or Him), and maybe learning how to work it at will ...

      However, I believe the rest of that esoteric belief wraps around the concept that, once God installed sentience into our beings, He lost the ability to control us, to directly oversee us as though we were a part of Him (as He does the angels). In other words: yes, God divided Himself up into multiple bits, but even He could not include His own self-awareness in us when we became sentient -- our self-awareness trumped His. I wonder if He was really annoyed, or really excited by that?

      Wow, i thought splitting perception is an incredibly hard thing to do. all the more reason for others to try it i guess It actually is hard to me, I tried to just now and I think that this might be a lot easier in dream-state. I suppose it helps practicing now, to perform the dream control when i actually find myself in a dream later.
      Definitely easier in the dream state, where cooperation with your unconscious is much more direct -- but it is also a good idea to practice splitting your consciousness (or at least lay down a solid plan to do so) during waking life. Nothing like a little solid expectation to give your dreaming mind a kick-start!

      I'm curious though, and just to get this thread back on-topic which says from the thread title it is about dream control in it's totality, could you please name a few skills that are harder to master than just splitting perception?
      I was afraid you'd ask that! Not because I didn't have any examples, but because I fear that many of them have a "you had to be there" aspect to them, where words are difficult to find to fully explain what they're really like, or why they're really more difficult. I will try to avoid too much hypocrisy in this short list from the top of my head, in order of difficulty I've had doing them from "easiest" to hardest:

      * Find an old friend, and have a conversation with her. Don't just conjure a DC, but actually go on a physical search, remembering where that friend once lived, and going there. Then find her as she would naturally appear in these environs, as she would appear today, and not when you last saw her. It's harder than it sounds, at least for me!

      * Move your perspective, entirely, from DC to DC, and make sure your perspective shifts relative to whoever you are "in," so that what you see, touch, feel, even think is in line with the character of the person you are occupying, and not your own character.

      * Erase everything from your dream, including any trace of your own DC dream body and its tools for perception. Then consider where you are.

      * Build, from the dirt of your dream, a human being. Don't just summon a DC, but form a body, minding every detail, and then try to give it (or allow it) its own personality -- a unique one that is not yours.

      * Maintain self-awareness throughout an entire night's sleep... does that count?

      * Build a dream during NREM/delta sleep, one that is unique to delta and its environs (you'll know them when you're there), and not just an accidental slide into REM dreaming.

      * Create a dream schema that cannot have come from this world, or even your own mind (a lot harder than it sounds), and then construct a metaphor to describe it to yourself later.

      * Create a metaphoric "engine" that seamlessly combines the activity of your brain, mind, and, perhaps, soul into one seamless communication all overseen by your self-awareness, giving you complete communication to everything your Self has to offer, all in a metaphor your self-awareness can handle. I call it a trinity engine, myself.

      I've explored all of these to some degree, though the last two are a real bitch, and I'll likely be working on the last for decades.

      I hope some of these made sense, and at least seem harder to you than splitting consciousness... they were for me! If I can think of more, or perhaps better examples, I'll add them later. Also, I understand that these items are not so much skills as activities that imply skills, but I found it easier to convey them this way (sort of like using gaming metaphors to describe other sorts of dream control ... hypocrisy, anyone )
      Last edited by Sageous; 01-24-2014 at 05:34 AM.

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      Now I understand what you mean! Multi-tasking 2 dreams. The car example was helpful, but I am skeptic that, even with the conscious and unconscious working very 'close', you would still store the 2 different memories so well. Conscious attention is different than unconscious attention. When we do a thing, we have all our attention to it, but multi-tasking splits our attention. How does the unconscious add more attention to that equation? Again, the car example is splitting conscious attention, which will store events to the memory.

      tl;dr: Splitting your attention to 2 different dreams is experiencing each one with half the experience. The unconscious attention doesn't exactly add experience to the episodic memory. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      ... Splitting your attention to 2 different dreams is experiencing each one with half the experience. The unconscious attention doesn't exactly add experience to the episodic memory. Correct me if I'm wrong.
      Okay, you're wrong! Not really, but there is one piece you left out: in the name of making better sense of reality, and to better order our past, we have a tendency to "fill in" blank spaces in our memory or experience. Yes, experientially, when we split our attention, our time, to two separate things, we can do no better, at the time of the experience, than halve the amount of time spent in each experience. As I noted above, when you are in the act of splitting your consciousness, your overriding self is still fully aware of the passage of time, and that no matter how many different scenarios are crammed into an hour's dream, a single hour has still passed.

      But, when you wake up, and, assuming you made sure that all of those split-consciousness adventures were memorable, your memory must record these events. Here is where your unconscious kicks in and fills in the blanks: if you have built substantial enough schemata for each split, then your unconscious will make the memories substantial as well -- you will very likely remember that you were in each "split" dreamworld for that whole hour, even though that did not happen during the dream. So, once awake, you will remember two hours of life, even though when it happened you only lived one hour. And, since your existence is based far more on memory than on direct experience, you will have lived one extra hour of time because that's how you remember it. Since memory dictates your reality more than we'd like to admit, I think this makes sense... and also sort of defines the reason for science's existence (something quantitative to counter creative memory).

      This is I think, why so many people believe they have had dreams (almost always NLD's) that lasted for days, weeks, even years. They really didn't, but, like LaBerge's notable movie analogy, though it was filled with gaps the plot of their dream covered long stretches of time, and subsequently their memories dutifully filled in the gaps with an assumed time passage, just to help it all make sense.

      So: yes, "Splitting your attention to 2 different dreams is experiencing each one with half the experience. The unconscious attention doesn't exactly add experience to the episodic memory." But no, after waking, that equation quickly becomes invalid, and you will tend to remember 2 different dreams that each lasted as long as the entire dream combined. Therefore, even though it has no effect on time at the time, splitting consciousnesses or dream schemata during a dream will make it seem, after waking, that you dilated time itself -- and it would be hard to convince yourself otherwise, once the memory has fully burned in (remember this next time you argue with someone who insists they had a dream that lasted a month).

      Delusion, perhaps, but, given the weight we place on memory determining our reality, this is one delusion that can seem literally real.
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      ok, I am convinced! Maybe the quality of the dream decreases, but the time still seemed longer.

      But I have to arfue with one thing: A human brain can only split attention to only 2 actions symoltaneously. So maybe 2 hour dream, but not a month!
      But, there is another technique for making the dream feel much longer. This tech doesn't envolve splitting awareness. It is like watching a movie: A movie that has a time period of years in its plot, but lasts 2 hours. When it is done, you feel like you have spent much more time than 2 hours! Maybe it is also filling the memory gap.

      Another question comes to mind: Can we split our attention to more than 2 actions happening symoltaneously? Let alone a 100?
      Phycologically imposible.

      Say, we can do the split attention time dilation(SATD I call dibs) in waking life too!
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Excellent concept though; I only hope I properly understand it!
      I think you got it right. I just made it up yesterday though, what can i say, I guess i'm inspired. But yea, you have created extra memories of time. Mylenes' mentioned the book example and i think it is a okay analogue but my explanation might be more to the point and truthful, lol. You are indeed doing interesting things with the concept of time itself in dreams. That is interesting, don't you think? I think Mylenes is a genius for thinking this up. I just spend hours yesterday trying to understand what he means and I think I get it now.

      Agreed... and advanced LD'ing is an excellent tool for discovering that console, finding out who is manning it (i.e., us or Him), and maybe learning how to work it at will ...
      * Erase everything from your dream, including any trace of your own DC dream body and its tools for perception. Then consider where you are.
      I see it now, it really is inspiring me to do more lucid dreaming. I think this example you gave here is quite a useful starting point as well. Did you do this? What conclusions did you come to? Where are you!?

      However, I believe the rest of that esoteric belief wraps around the concept that, once God installed sentience into our beings, He lost the ability to control us, to directly oversee us as though we were a part of Him (as He does the angels). In other words: yes, God divided Himself up into multiple bits, but even He could not include His own self-awareness in us when we became sentient -- our self-awareness trumped His. I wonder if He was really annoyed, or really excited by that?
      Well it essentially implies that we are god. Just like in the dream example, there still is that connection to the Original lucid dreamer. But I have seen someone imply that god is actually "sorry" for his creation, speaking for all the wrong-doers and demons and suffering. It kind of spiraled out of control while god just divided up his consciousness in the first place simply because he was lonely. Now there's a whole sentient universe and some irreversable process is taking place. Neat little theory

      I'll come back to that list of urs and try them out in lucid dreams. Very interesting practices you mention here Sageous, thanks a lot for sharing mate!

      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      Now I understand what you mean! Multi-tasking 2 dreams. The car example was helpful, but I am skeptic that, even with the conscious and unconscious working very 'close', you would still store the 2 different memories so well. Conscious attention is different than unconscious attention. When we do a thing, we have all our attention to it, but multi-tasking splits our attention. How does the unconscious add more attention to that equation? Again, the car example is splitting conscious attention, which will store events to the memory.

      tl;dr: Splitting your attention to 2 different dreams is experiencing each one with half the experience. The unconscious attention doesn't exactly add experience to the episodic memory. Correct me if I'm wrong.
      I agree with your skepticism. That is why i think we should really just try it to see what happens. And how does the unconscious add more attention to that equation? Well.. In the same way that the unconscious controls sentient-like behaviour in a DC in dreams, right?

      Try insulting a DC. It looks like it is offended or it can react with indifference. Either way, it suggest a cognitive process of "Feeling insulted, or feeling above the insult" is taking place. But in reality there is no congnitive process, you just simply see the DC react as if it was another person with his own thoughts-process outside of yourself.

      The unconscious attention doesn't exactly add experience to the episodic memory.
      Or it does, maybe. When you experiencing awareness in all ur clones in a dream you are not exactly unconscious. I really think i agree that you have only half-attention but you still have a decent portion of awareness on all the clones so you do make extra memories. It is probably not that extreme a form of time extention.

      PS: Take me with a grain of salt, i might say some stupid things its just that I guess i'm inspired and i don't feel like letting this go anything soon
      PSPS: Aah, i see i have missed a part of the conversation >_<
      Last edited by Dthoughts; 01-24-2014 at 05:03 PM.
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      Yes.
      My argument is that you can't remember something if you didn't pay attention to it, even if the unconscious is working on it. And we can't split our attention to more than 2 actions at a time, so time dilation would be only double, not a hundred, or even 3! And when you dilate time, the experience of each action will decrease because you have less attention on it(it's like when you play a video game and watch tv at the same time, you won't enjoy the single action as much as performing it alone(aka with your full attention).
      I think this is not about consciouss, but about attention.
      I fill my heart with fire, with passion, passion for what makes me nostalgic. A unique perspective fuels my fire, makes me discover new passions, more nostalgia. I love it.

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      Ok.

      Can we get a raise of hands here of those who have actually successfully dialated time? If we can get those people to speak up and compare their experience against the people hypothesizing, I think we would get more conclusive results.

      No?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Dthoughts View Post
      I think you got it right. I just made it up yesterday though, what can i say, I guess i'm inspired. But yeah, you have created extra memories of time. Mylenes' mentioned the book example and i think it is a okay analogue but my explanation might be more to the point and truthful, lol. You are indeed doing interesting things with the concept of time itself in dreams. That is interesting, don't you think? I think Mylenes is a genius for thinking this up. I just spend hours yesterday trying to understand what he means and I think I get it now.
      If Mylynes is a genius, that would make you a super-genius! If I remember right, Mylynes actually got it wrong, because he thought time will just dilate if you clone yourself a bunch of times (with, of course, no explanation of how that cloning occurs), and that dilation would occur in some sort of arithmetic progression based on an assumption that each clone would be self-aware and be independently experiencing time's passage. In other words, he did some fairly simplistic logic based on, well, base-less assumptions (i.e., that more versions of you = more time literally created, self-awareness can be split) with which I still firmly disagree; not exactly genius, from my perspective. Your short clarification (and, I might add, correction) proved much more sensible, and led me to wonder if time-dilation might be possible, if only in post-event memory. Sorry, I seemed to have dissed Mylynes again ... that honestly was not intended, and I certainly don't want to get into another chat about Mylynes' credibility, so I'll leave it at that (I hope you will as well).

      * Erase everything from your dream, including any trace of your own DC dream body and its tools for perception. Then consider where you are.
      I see it now, it really is inspiring me to do more lucid dreaming. I think this example you gave here is quite a useful starting point as well. Did you do this? What conclusions did you come to? Where are you!?
      Yes, I've done this several times; indeed, it's one of my favorite high-lucidity actions.

      I don't know if I came to any conclusions, and even if I did, I doubt those conclusions would line up much with those of someone else who did this. But:

      What I experienced was quite transcendental for me (here comes the "you had to be there" part with no clear description). While existing in pure nothing (I used to say "floating," but Shadowofwind corrected me, saying that if nothing is there, including you, then there is no floating going on), I experienced a sense of timelessness and peace that is very difficult to describe. The existential release of understanding that, though there is nothing here, I am still here, was exhilarating and left me much to think about upon waking. One thing I thought about was that this must be what the Zen Buddhists are talking about when they suggest letting go of ego (though I still have problems with this practice, as ego = identity, and w/out identity, I never would have felt that exhilaration).

      You really must be there to appreciate what this time out of time and space feels like or means to you. I also assure you that, even if I could describe what it is like to exist in an infinite manner, and to appreciate that this kind of existence might be more available to us than we think, I bet that what you experience might be very different -- this is, in its most perfect sense, your universe; what you make of it, how you interpret it, and where you think you went is up to you.

      Where was I? Nowhere. Everywhere. Both. You had to be there (not, of course, that there even was a "there" there!)... I hope you will -- and when you do, don't forget to consider where you are during the event as well as upon waking!

      I'll come back to that list of urs and try them out in lucid dreams. Very interesting practices you mention here Sageous, thanks a lot for sharing mate!
      No problem; and here's hoping I don't live to regret it!

      Try insulting a DC. It looks like it is offended or it can react with indifference. Either way, it suggest a cognitive process of "Feeling insulted, or feeling above the insult" is taking place. But in reality there is no congnitive process, you just simply see the DC react as if it was another person with his own thoughts-process outside of yourself.
      Another excellent example!


      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      My argument is that you can't remember something if you didn't pay attention to it, even if the unconscious is working on it.
      I'm not entirely sure of that. As my driving analogy might have inadvertently noted, your unconscious was doing the attention-paying to the other things while you were occupied with accident avoidance. I wouldn't underestimate both your unconscious ability to absorb detail, pay attention to multiple things (things of which you are sometimes not even aware), but to store things in memory that you never consciously noticed (i.e., much day residue is things that you might not ave consciously paid attention to when they happened, but were still stored in your memory.).

      In other words, you can and do remember things to which you were not consciously paying attention. If not, then all those subliminal stimulation companies are in a lot of trouble!

      And we can't split our attention to more than 2 actions at a time, so time dilation would be only double, not a hundred, or even 3! And when you dilate time, the experience of each action will decrease because you have less attention on it(it's like when you play a video game and watch tv at the same time, you won't enjoy the single action as much as performing it alone(aka with your full attention).
      Though I won't argue with the splitting into 2 "limit," because from a psychological standpoint that sort of makes sense; though I would argue that the illusion of a greater number of splits could certainly occur, and that might be enough for later memory manufacture. And remember also that that memory manufacture includes filling in the gaps where you were not consciously paying attention -- ask the driver of that car about his near-accident, his phone conversation, and the problems he was thinking about at the time, and I imagine he will have a full description of each thing, with little regard -- or memory -- of the necessary pauses from each at the time.

      I think this is not about consciousness, but about attention.
      Probably, because in the end every conscious event is about attention (I'm a big fan of paying attention; even wrote a book about it once). But attention comes in many forms, and some of those forms are snugly embedded in your unconscious as it processes your sensory data, sorting the items to which you would be most inclined to pay attention -- and alerting you if necessary, from the less important or suddenly back-burner stuff, which also is being filed in memory, at least for a short time. Oh, and even though I'm making it sound like your unconscious is some sort of intelligence or being quite separate from you, I do not mean to do so; it's all you!

      So yes, it is all about attention, but don't underestimate the power of your entire mind to pay attention -- even if it is doing so after the fact by adding "missing" detail to gaps in memories.
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      we posses these attention abilities in waking life too. So it is like when you feel you had a long day, ir that some actions took forever to finish.

      Hmmm... So in dreams, we have a stronger way to increase(or focus, or whatever) that unconscious attention? That is why it is more effective than waking life? Interesting!
      But doesn't that unconscious attention direct the experience to a different memory? So it wouldn't be really that you are experiencing a hundred dreams at once, because the rest of the attention is, well, sublimenal. So, maybe a longer sense of time, wait what? I just said it would be a different memory! The sublimenal memory gives a time effect too? I think. So, your memory fills those gaps. Amazing! Time dilation by means of unconscious memory! Weird!
      Where is Zoth when we need him!
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      Quote Originally Posted by Brizzl View Post
      Ok.

      Can we get a raise of hands here of those who have actually successfully dialated time? If we can get those people to speak up and compare their experience against the people hypothesizing, I think we would get more conclusive results.

      No?
      Yes, That is exactly why i am saying we should start trying these techniques, so we can compare the results!

      If you could just help out that would expand our database of results.
      Last edited by Dthoughts; 01-24-2014 at 09:47 PM. Reason: punctuation
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      So, how do we add subconscious attention exactly? By expanding the subs job?(aka bigger dreamscape or multiple dreamscapes)
      I fill my heart with fire, with passion, passion for what makes me nostalgic. A unique perspective fuels my fire, makes me discover new passions, more nostalgia. I love it.

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      This thread has created an excessive amount of controversy haha.

      Alright! Dthoughts, I accept the challenge. Everyone else who had their doubts should do their share of work to see to these method's truths.
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      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      So, how do we add subconscious attention exactly? By expanding the subs job?(aka bigger dreamscape or multiple dreamscapes)
      Simply by giving it more to do, as you already noted. Beyond that, you really need do nothing special... okay, nothing super special: incorporate some serious thought and planning about whatever specific method you plan to use to do the "split," like anticipating and perhaps visualizing a multi-screen, multi-plot, ultimately multi-conscious production for your next LD'ing session. Then let your expectations feed your unconscious so that, come dream-time, it will be ready work with you. Ultimately, though it takes some time and effort, the set-up is the easy part in this particular game; it's the gathering of your self-awareness and remembering to do the split during the dream that's the real bitch! Your unconscious will likely be prepared long before you've got your mind in the right place to do this thing properly.
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      You could try playing an actual chess game with yourself. I think Mylenes does so at times? Mylenes, where the F_ are you, anyway?

      You could use the double chess game as a starting schematic (Am i using the term right?) and then seperate ways with both players.

      You could also imagine your consciousness as having a form. Could be simply a circle or a square but I think it works best if you use what is most natural for you. It could be something way more complex. If you used the circle you could try to split that circle and imagine you have vision/senses at the poles of each now half-circle and proceed from there. Although, i think the chess thing with the schematic might be way easier, i'm not such a king in dream control i never actually achieved much besides flying.

      Also, to be fair.. I think Louia's suggestion of making a bigger dreamscape could potentially have the same effect by adding more novelty thus increasing perception of time in much the same way. But that is not what we are trying to achieve here. Atleast, i'd prefer trying to split consciousness first cus' i think it is really interesting to see what dreams we will get from that. ^^
      Last edited by Dthoughts; 01-25-2014 at 01:49 AM.
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      We still need to figure out if the memory of the sub's activities actually gives us a sense of time, or if it is related to the episodic memory, let alone 'combine' with it so the gaps will then appear.
      I fill my heart with fire, with passion, passion for what makes me nostalgic. A unique perspective fuels my fire, makes me discover new passions, more nostalgia. I love it.

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