Thread: Stop Making Sex Out To Be Bad/Dirty/Gross/Special/Important/Criminal/Unnacceptable/Unsociable

Originally Posted by Jesus of Suburbia

Right.



Because having sex is a huge huge decision, right?
It can only be traumatizing as long as we keep thinking it's... y'know, all those things I said in the OP.

Just ignore everything I said about trust, sexual development and abuse of power.
Just respond as if my only argument was "BUT SEX IS BAAAAD!!"
If you honestly think a grown adult of 25 years having a sexual relationship with an 8 year old is OK, then you have deeper problems than I can address myself.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Condoms don't work if you don't wear them, and like I said, sometimes people just want to go bareback. That's fine if you're an adult and prepared to deal with the consequences, but if kids mess around then they could bring a new life into the equation which can be a tragedy for many people - including the child itself as well as the parents who will have to deal with it.

There are other contraceptives than condoms; these do not affect the enjoyment of sex. The important thing to avoid teen pregnancies is teaching kids how to have sex safely (aka always use protection), because we know from experience that telling them to abstain just won't do it. And frankly, I don't see the problem with disease-free teens having safe sex with each other. I really don't.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Moving to another part of the debate - I don't think you can separate messy emotions from sex, so it will always be subject to the strongest taboos. When you become sexually intimate with somebody you open yourself emotionally, often in ways you didn't anticipate (especially if you're a child). Love, obsession, revulsion, jealousy, depression, suicidal or murderous rage. These are things that can be stirred to the sufrace in the wake of sex - even if it wasn't intended.

Sex being special and powerful isn't mere social convention, it's one of the deepest laws of nature.

This is the absolute truth. Consider what has been evolutionary most important for humans. Reproduction. That's bound to create all sorts of fundamental, biological hangups.

Sex is evil,
Evil is sin,
Sin is forgiven
So lets get stuck in!

Oh I know there are others - I mentioned pills above too. I was only responding directly to what Jesus said. But none of them are 100% effective, short of tying off your tubes, plus these other methods don't prevent STDs. Therefore I don't think sex should be encouraged for minors. That doesn't mean I believe in telling them they'll go to hell or anything crazy - but I do think societal prescriptions against child sex are important. They need to understand that it's not something to be entered into lightly.

I completely agree education is of prime importance, but my point remains kids aren't ready to have kids. Of course many adults aren't ready either, but once you're an adult you're free to make your own decisions. The important factor is dependency. As long as you're living in your parent's house and they're paying for eveything, it isn't your right to create a new life that they then become responsible for by default. And as far as I know, pregnancy is possible no matter what kind of birth control is used - especially if the people who are supposed to be using it have the option to just not use it at their discretion.

Originally Posted by Savy

If you honestly think a grown adult of 25 years having a sexual relationship with an 8 year old is OK, then you have deeper problems than I can address myself.

Why.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Oh I know there are others - I mentioned pills above too. I was only responding directly to what Jesus said. But none of them are 100% effective, short of tying off your tubes, plus these other methods don't prevent STDs. Therefore I don't think sex should be encouraged for minors. That doesn't mean I believe in telling them they'll go to hell or anything crazy - but I do think societal prescriptions against child sex are important. They need to understand that it's not something to be entered into lightly.

I completely agree education is of prime importance, but my point remains kids aren't ready to have kids. Of course many adults aren't ready either, but once you're an adult you're free to make your own decisions. The important factor is dependency. As long as you're living in your parent's house and they're paying for eveything, it isn't your right to create a new life that they then become responsible for by default. And as far as I know, pregnancy is possible no matter what kind of birth control is used - especially if the people who are supposed to be using it have the option to just not use it at their discretion.

lol, you called me Jesus.

^ Now I always get confused when people say what would Jesus do?

What is a sex and how do I obtain one ;__;.

Originally Posted by Jesus of Suburbia

Physical risks are limited to STDs

*looks at your gender sign*

dude!!

Originally Posted by juroara

*looks at your gender sign*

dude!!

I put pregnancy at the end of the paragraph.

Am I missing something else? Cause falling out of the bed doesn't count

Originally Posted by Savy

2. Why is pedophilia wrong?

Pedophilia is about as "wrong" as having a foot fetish, we can't control what we're attracted to. Assaulting a child though, that's definitely wrong.

Pedophiles = meh
Child molesters = :[

Originally Posted by Jesus of Suburbia

It can only be traumatizing as long as we keep thinking it's... y'know, all those things I said in the OP.

Not really. Any time you're being forced to do something against your will or you're being manipulated, there's a chance it'll be a traumatic experience for you.

I wouldn't say "any time".

If I held a gun to your head, and my only demand was that you tie your shoe, how traumatic would that really be?

You know, aside from the "There's a gun at my head part". There are other ways to force people to do stuff, y'know. Guns are just the go-to "you have to do this" scenario.

Pedophilia is wrong. Pedophiles, assuming they have controlled their urges, are not inherently wrong-- only if they commit acts of pedophilia.

Children are never sexual objects.
Feet are not beings by themselves, they are part of a person.
If the person is consenting and of an appropriate age, then there is nothing wrong with having a foot fetish.
So your metaphor isn't really valid.

Having sex with a child, however, is ALWAYS wrong. It is never okay.

I can understand if a person cannot control what they are attracted to, but a person attracted to children should never think their attraction is OK. It's not okay.
CP is never okay. Child molestation is never okay. Sex with a child is never okay. IT IS NEVER OKAY.
To cope with these sexual desires, cartoons like lolicon (although highly fucking creepy) are an OK way to vent this desire.
Therapy is a good way to resolve these desires, and deal with them in a safe way.
Acting on these desires by interacting with a child is NEVER OKAY.

In the same way a person with a rape fantasy has no right to act on those desires, a pedophile has no right to act on theirs, either.
Your right to be the way you are, ends where other people's rights begin. Children have the right to grow up free from sexual abuse and manipulation.

Don't apologize for pedophiles.
We all have problems, we all have desires we cannot act on, and they are no different.
If they can't control their urges, they should rot in a jail for the rest of their lives.

Originally Posted by Savy

Pedophilia is wrong. Pedophiles, assuming they have controlled their urges, are not inherently wrong-- only if they commit acts of pedophilia.

Children are never sexual objects.
Feet are not beings by themselves, they are part of a person.
If the person is consenting and of an appropriate age, then there is nothing wrong with having a foot fetish.
So your metaphor isn't really valid.

Having sex with a child, however, is ALWAYS wrong. It is never okay.

I can understand if a person cannot control what they are attracted to, but a person attracted to children should never think their attraction is OK. It's not okay.
CP is never okay. Child molestation is never okay. Sex with a child is never okay. IT IS NEVER OKAY.
To cope with these sexual desires, cartoons like lolicon (although highly fucking creepy) are an OK way to vent this desire.
Therapy is a good way to resolve these desires, and deal with them in a safe way.
Acting on these desires by interacting with a child is NEVER OKAY.

In the same way a person with a rape fantasy has no right to act on those desires, a pedophile has no right to act on theirs, either.
Your right to be the way you are, ends where other people's rights begin. Children have the right to grow up free from sexual abuse and manipulation.

Don't apologize for pedophiles.
We all have problems, we all have desires we cannot act on, and they are no different.
If they can't control their urges, they should rot in a jail for the rest of their lives.

So let me get this straight:
Pedophilia is wrong...
Because pedophilia is wrong.

You have no reasons other than "I grew up being told that people have to be 18 to have sex".

Originally Posted by Jesus of Suburbia

So let me get this straight:
Pedophilia is wrong...
Because pedophilia is wrong.

You have no reasons other than "I grew up being told that people have to be 18 to have sex".

You are truly an idiot.
Have you read anything I've posted at all?
Stop making my arguments into strawmen.

I said I think the age should be lowered to 16, and that there should be a sliding scale regarding criminality.

Do I think 19 year old having sex with an 17 year old is wrong? No.
Do I think that a grown fucking adult having sex with an 8 year old is wrong and should be illegal? FUCK YES
Why? I didn't say pedophilia is wrong because of pedophilia. I said it's wrong because of emotional trauma, abuse of power, body/sexual development, psychological issues, etc etc etc

You are a class-A dickhole. You refuse to actually READ anything I post, and make the same tired arguments over and over.
You want to justify your own beliefs without ever challenging them at all, without ever thinking of the consequences of your actions, without ever considering the morality of them.
You believe whatever you want, whatever benefits you most, THEN come up with supporting evidence rather than the other way around.
You're like a goddamned robot prototype, no real AI, just programmed to spit out the same garbage no matter what it's in response to.

I've put aside my gut reactions, my aesthetic evaluations. If I went with that, I'd lock pedophiles up before they could do any more damage to our youth.
But I understand that that's a double standard. I understand that that's unfair. I understand that that's the immoral reaction.
That's why I thought about my responses. I thought about which rights are owed to all people, regardless of preferences.
Now why don't you think on why you feel entitled to take a child's innocence, to groom and manipulate them? How is that fair, moral, right?

Seriously, I'm done.
You argue an already rocky stance with little to no logic or reasoning.
And I'm done repeating myself simply because you have no reading comprehension skills.

There is another thread that spent pages and pages debating pedophilia. Try not to repeat it.

The consensus there was that people can't control having the attractions they have (it's how they are made) but everyone agreed that acting out the fantasies or impulses was wrong and produced undesirable consequences all around.

- Jesus of Suburbia = Why?
How about anyone can have sex with anyone as long as they're both okay with it?

- Xei = Because there is an issue about the nature of consent. A toddler does not have the ability to make autonomous decisions, but most 18-year-olds do. So presumably there is a point somewhere in between where there is a transition from one state to the other.

I see the above quotes as the perfect question and answer for this debate.

Originally Posted by Savy

You are truly an idiot.
Have you read anything I've posted at all?
Stop making my arguments into strawmen.

I said I think the age should be lowered to 16, and that there should be a sliding scale regarding criminality.

Do I think 19 year old having sex with an 17 year old is wrong? No.
Do I think that a grown fucking adult having sex with an 8 year old is wrong and should be illegal? FUCK YES
Why? I didn't say pedophilia is wrong because of pedophilia. I said it's wrong because of emotional trauma, abuse of power, body/sexual development, psychological issues, etc etc etc

You are a class-A dickhole. You refuse to actually READ anything I post, and make the same tired arguments over and over.
You want to justify your own beliefs without ever challenging them at all, without ever thinking of the consequences of your actions, without ever considering the morality of them.
You believe whatever you want, whatever benefits you most, THEN come up with supporting evidence rather than the other way around.
You're like a goddamned robot prototype, no real AI, just programmed to spit out the same garbage no matter what it's in response to.

I've put aside my gut reactions, my aesthetic evaluations. If I went with that, I'd lock pedophiles up before they could do any more damage to our youth.
But I understand that that's a double standard. I understand that that's unfair. I understand that that's the immoral reaction.
That's why I thought about my responses. I thought about which rights are owed to all people, regardless of preferences.
Now why don't you think on why you feel entitled to take a child's innocence, to groom and manipulate them? How is that fair, moral, right?

Seriously, I'm done.
You argue an already rocky stance with little to no logic or reasoning.
And I'm done repeating myself simply because you have no reading comprehension skills.

You seem mad. Are you mad?

Just two things here: First, stop trying to make me into a pedophile, saying things like, "you feel entitled to take a child's innocence, to groom and manipulate them", "without ever thinking of the consequences of your actions". That's ad hominem to the max.
Secondly, I don't think pedophilia is okay in today's society, and I never said I did. The point I've been trying to get across this whole time, is that if society were to give up their views on sex as something that's degrading, sinful, dirty, etc., it would be okay for anyone to have sex with anyone, because sex would no longer be the big deal it is now. Without the censorship, without the prohibition, and with more education, sex could be an enjoyable experience for anybody, and it would never need to take an emotional toll, whether in a good way or a bad way. Sex = loss of innocence because we say that sex = loss of innocence.
The reason [generalization] European countries [/generalization] are more lax on nudity and why they tend to have lower age-of-consent laws is the same.

Originally Posted by melanieb

There is another thread that spent pages and pages debating pedophilia. Try not to repeat it.

The consensus there was that people can't control having the attractions they have (it's how they are made) but everyone agreed that acting out the fantasies or impulses was wrong and produced undesirable consequences all around.







I see the above quotes as the perfect question and answer for this debate.

I'm trying to say that sex is viewed the wrong way in our society, and pedophilia was an example that got out of line. Probably because I added 18+ in the OP.

Yeaaaaah, I agree melanie, this topic getting a little overdone.

Like a prostitute.

Edit: I didn't really want to unlock this thread, because I believe it will end up a million more times in the shit gutter, including not being related to the original post. Instead of stifling JoS's thread altogether, I'll give it one more chance.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but PLEASE keep future posts in this thread related to the subject of stopping making sex out to be Bad/Dirty/Gross/Special/Important/Criminal/Unacceptable/Unsociable. No where and in no way did the OP say that pedophilia should be condoned.

Thank you :)

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I completely agree education is of prime importance, but my point remains kids aren't ready to have kids. Of course many adults aren't ready either, but once you're an adult you're free to make your own decisions. The important factor is dependency. As long as you're living in your parent's house and they're paying for eveything, it isn't your right to create a new life that they then become responsible for by default. And as far as I know, pregnancy is possible no matter what kind of birth control is used - especially if the people who are supposed to be using it have the option to just not use it at their discretion.

Then the sexually active teenagers in their parents house should keep track of their periods, use a pregnancy test if they miss it by a week, and get an abortion if the answer is yes and the parents say no.

Wow - so many issues there, all wrapped up neatly in one sentence.

Many 16 year olds aren't responsible enough to keep track of their periods or just don't understand the importance - that's the age of "it can't happen to me!". Who pays for the abortion? What if they don't believe in abortion?

Then they're stuck with a kid.

It's like Jehova's Witnesses who can't get blood transplants (is it a transplant? I don't know the name of the procedure, something to do with blood). If they refuse the procedure, they die. If someone in that situation refuses an abortion, they're stuck with the kid.

That's a lot of pressure to put on your average 16 year old girl. Deciding whether to suddenly take on responsibility for a child or get an abortion - very traumatizing. To me these are choices for an adult to face, and I'd say most people would agree - hence society isn't likely to encourage high-school sex.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Wow - so many issues there, all wrapped up neatly in one sentence.

Many 16 year olds aren't responsible enough to keep track of their periods or just don't understand the importance - that's the age of "it can't happen to me!". Who pays for the abortion? What if they don't believe in abortion?

If many sixteen year olds aren't responsible enough to keep track of their periods, it's a wonder they're responsible enough to remove the tampon every 4-6 hours! You can actually die from leaving a tampon in overnight. Should we ban tampons from kids? But, this isn't the main problem I have with your claims.

The real point I want to make is that just because some teens aren't responsible enough, doesn't mean we should ban something across all teens. The same logic applies to drinking. The number of drunk drivers, people who aren't responsible enough to call a friend or cab after bar time, is plentiful. Should we ban drinking (from those with licenses) altogether, because of these people?

Perhaps a test could be implemented. Perhaps counseling would be required. But absolutely banning something completely across a group inevitably leads to 'weasels' and 'cheaters' and anxiety (and just plain unsafe sex) that could be avoided altogether. If these sexually active teens weren't shunned by law, they'd feel more comfortable asking adults (not necessarily parents) for advice and guidance during difficult situations.

I see where you're coming from, but I want to stress that to me the important factor is dependency/adulthood. You're right that adults aren't any more responsible necessarily - that's something I already said somewhere above. But the difference is, if you're an adult, then you can make your own decisions on drinking and driving because the responsibility is on you. But it's different if a teenage girl gets pregnant because somebody is going to have to either pay for an abortion or pay for raising the child.

We don't let dependent teenagers walk into a car dealership and buy the car of their choice and say "bill it to my dad" for the same reason - something the parents are going to have to pay for is their decision to make, not the kid's.

And obviously a lot of teenagers are going to go ahead and have sex all they want. They don't end up in jail over it. So it's not as extreme as you're making it sound. All banning it does is let them know that society really doesn't want them doing it.

To me it makes perfect sense that the age when they graduate high school and are legally able to move out on their own is when they have the freedom of adults - before that happens, they're legal and financial dependents.