Thread: Is OBE a form of Lucid Dreaming or not?

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

I have to ask people like Vmenge and Oneironaut how many books they've read on OBE/Astral Projection before drawing the conclusions they have.

If you say 0, I can't take you seriously.

First off, that's like saying "If you don't believe in God, and you haven't read the Bible, I can't take you seriously."

I haven't read any actual books on the phenomenon (unless you want to count The Holographic Universe, which touches on the subject), but I've read plenty of texts. (Information doesn't just come from books. I'm sure you know this.) I also do not disbelieve in the possibility of many psychic phenomena. I simply have not been convinced. There is a difference. I've read a lot of Radin's work on PSI, and have been surprised on many of the findings. I've read a lot on the military's remote viewing practices, and have been interested in many of the findings. I've read a lot of David Bohm's work on the Implicate/Explicate Order of the universe and Holomovement - which, so far, I've found to be the most concise, scientific theory on the possibility of PSI. I've had questionable experiences with the phenomenon, myself, but have had nothing that solidly convinces me that the phenomenon is, unequivocally, real.

And I have heard (and read) plenty of stories about people's experiences - some believable, some less than so. In that same vein, I can't take seriously anyone that says such a phenomenon 'can't be proven', because that is a slap in the face to science (which is also detriment to the exploration of altered states of consciousness), itself. Such a phenomenon can be proven, if it is real. The problem is that most people who want the phenomenon to be real are less likely to account for the times when their experiences are inconsistent with - and/or contradictory to - their biases. That is why, in something such as this, I take personal accounts with a grain of salt. There are people who believe that every dream is a trip to the Astral Plane. Their 'experiences' are their own evidence for it. As a very adept dreamer, myself, I find it hard to believe that I'm traveling to some undiscovered dimension in the multiverse, and having a battle to the death against The Shredder, along with the other Ninja Turtles. It takes a little more than an experience of something, to cause me to accept any given concept as reality.

Lastly, I would say your last two sentences sum it up quite nicely:

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

Ultimately, those of us that are having legitimate OBE's (and beyond) don't really care what others think. Our own experience is our evidence.

I don't really care what others think about my position on the matter, either. I have had my own "unexplained" experiences. I have spent much of my time researching the metaphysical (most of which was done to counter hard-boiled skeptics), and I have drawn my own conclusions. The over-arching conclusion that I have come to, at this point, is that - while I don't believe it isn't possible - I have yet to have confirmation. And, unlike so many who recount their "legitimate" OBE's, I don't take every 'mystical' experience as confirmation.

Also, I don't mean to discredit science. Without science we'd be cave men still. Our evolution has come a long way because we're becoming awesome at using our brains to unravel everything and figure out how it works.

But I do believe some things just can't be proven... or rather, scientifically proven... because they are in their very nature, nothing more than experiences.

--K

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

If an atheist wanted to intellectually engage a believer on the topic of Christianity, it WOULD be hard to take them seriously unless they've done some sort of research... it wouldn't have to be the Bible, or... fair enough... any books for that matter, but I would expect anyone who wants to say, "this idea us bullshit." wold have reasons to support their claim aside from saying, "well, because it's bullshit."

Agreed. I was just highlighting that their knowledge of God and/or Christianity could be a pretty fair understanding of the concepts, without having read the Bible, itself. But, yes, I also get upset with people who discredit things without, at least, putting some thought/research into it.

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

Aside from that, I think you've made a fair assessment.

Well, thank you.

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

But I do believe some things just can't be proven... or rather, scientifically proven... because they are in their very nature, nothing more than experiences.

I agree with this, to some extent. However, I think many people make the mistake of confusing subjective and objective experience. I believe in OBEs. I've had plenty of them, as I'm sure most of us on this board have. The folly comes when people interchange OBE and Astral Projection. It is why threads like this pop up. OoBE's are, at their core, subjective. You cannot tell someone that they have not had an OBE, because they were the ones who experienced it. However, a claim that someone Astrally Projects is another thing, entirely. That means they are claiming that their consciousness physically left their body, and was able to perceive an actual, absolute plane.

One is a subjective claim. The other doesn't just flirt with objectivity. It assumes it.

So, when people get confused about OBE/AP/LDing, it is largely because of people making the claims that their OBEs are actually APs. Such claims do require proof, if they are to be taken seriously, and (as many of us, who experiment with altered states of consciousness could attest to) experiences, much like appearances, can be misleading.

I believe that, if AP is real, it can be proven. One of the caveats to AP is that people are said to be able to perceive the physical realm, outside of space and time. This is a quantifiable property, if it is true. The right scientific approach could definitely prove it. What is missing is a sound methodology and, perhaps at this time, the tools.