Thread: Be careful of what you wish for

I have a healthy respect for the responders I have interacted with in the past and see their points, and they have a lot more experience than I. In looking over a number of his past posts, I want to believe Aneas. Of course this is one of the traits that gets me in trouble with the wife, putting myself in the opposition's shoes to a degree (not that Aneas is the opposition), or giving them the benefit of the doubt. His past posts feel genuine. My feeling, which may be way off base is that there may be two likely scenarios. 1. He is genuine and doesn't feel motivated to spend much time responding (most of his responses to others offering help or input were also short). 2. Aneas' profile (one of the first created here? this thread made me think that: http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...e.html#post130 ) ...that his profile was hijacked by someone who did a little reading of his past posts but is unable to truly answer for him in a clear way since it is not him. Perhaps this could motivate Aneas to respond more completely.

I apologize for all the past quotes below, if it is not proper, feel free to take down this post. It may help us to believe Aneas.

4/26/2006

I was taught how to control my dreams by a dream character that was present since my first LD and continued on until my late teens. In the first LD I was taught how to control the movement of the dream body (floating,flying, etc). I never saw who it was doing the teaching. They would speak into my left ear and guide me through the process of experimentation. My guess is that it was my subconcious mind. You must understand that I was immediately able to perceive the shift into dream conciousness, which I think was the key to my LD ability. I knew that I was dreaming so I had no hesitation in performing any of the tasks prompted by the dream guide.

The shapeshifting and textures I refer to are all LD experiences dealing with experimentation within the dream. C'mon now dude, I know that you didn't think that I was talking about actual shapeshifting outside the dream realm. I'm a naturally gifted LDer, not crazy.

7/15/2003

When I dream I am aware of being the dreamer, the dream, and the body lying in bed. I have found that when I create something from nothing it is done with a bright green hue. Anyone else experience this?

the first sentence above seems so insightful

My first lucid dream and my first OBE were simultaneous. You really need to spend time before you sleep mediating on slowing down your breathing and heartrate. Once this state is reached the key to getting out is to maintain the slow breathing and quickly accelerating your heartrate. The cool thing is when you think that it isn't working and you attempt to get out of bed and your foot goes through the floor. My best OBE was simply hearing the most incredible music consisting of stringed instruments and floating towards the source as if I were riding a wave. My entire being was part of the music.

The above at first looked like it could contradict how he said it started but not on further thought. He could have had a floating dream or an OBE in which the voice started speaking to him once he was on his local street corner...see 7/17/2003-quote after next.

Sex for the sake of sex with whomever you please. One of the definate perks of dream control. But after 32 years of lucid dreaming I really don't indulge in that particular aspect. I concentrate more on just being and trying not to control the dream.

7/17/2003

How it began

As I read through the posts I really feel for those who struggle with the task of lucid dreaming. As I stated earlier I began my dreaming experiences 32 years ago at age six. My first experience was that I was standing on the corner in my city at night. There was an individual (my subconscious I am guessing) standing behind my left shoulder who told me that I was dreaming. They began to teach me how to move about the dream. I remember floating into the buildings the first few times I tried moving my dream body. From that point on it became a nightly session of tutoring which went on for a very long time. I never saw the face of my teacher. There are so many techniques provided for lucid dreaming. For me it is simply a matter of closing my eyes to fall asleep her and waking up into one of the many places that I have created over the years. I know which dreamcity I am in by the "feel" of the dream. Each dream has a different vibration to it. I know immediately where I am and what has happened in the past when I was there. Having been a lucid dreamer for so long, and in order to eliminate repetition, I practice what I call "random insertion", meaning that I don't choose the dreamscape in which I will awaken. The only place that I willingly choose is a place that I call "dark city". I know that there will be only confrontations when I visit there and I use this place to challenge myself in the shapeshifting area. When I am confronted by a new adversary for the first time I shapeshift into it's form. After the first time I do this it is imprinted onto my dream mind and I can reshape into that particular form anytime thereafter.

Above, guessing that it was his subconscious seems insightful

7/20/2003

Dream layers and Dream fabric

Normally once I enter a dream I usually complete the dream within that one particulair dreamscape. Once however I flew straight up, and after entering the clouds I found myself coming up through the ground of another dreamscape where I go to just float on the breeze. It consists of colorful valleys and mountains.

I also once drew a line of bright green and pulled it apart, separating the area and stepped through into complete nothingness. This ever happen to anyone else?

the below quote was much later in same thread revived..

I do not believe I was experiencing an OBE. I have a great deal of experience with that and I can always tell the difference. I usually move from one dreamscape to another by dissolving the scene. This felt as though my dreams were actually layered, if that makes sense. I would think that the feeling of moving from one dream to another was as much of an illusion as is our perception of our three dimensional world, in the respect that we only perceive three dimensions.

07-29-2003-it took 9 years for a reply to this thread below but then was joined in by Hukif, Gab and others

Many Worlds Within

Having been a lucid dreamer for so long I have created many cities. These many places were created when I was younger and first started lucid dreaming. In the beginining I created many because the experience was new. Much like a computer program the cities I created each contained people who grew and flourished. Periodically, due to my technique of random insertion, I find myself in cities that I have not visited since my younger years. I have re-entered some of these cities only to find that they have been "conquered" by others. On these occasions I immediately eliminate the intruders and re-establish freedom for the native dwellers. I was very curious if this is an occurence that is shared among other lucid veterans. Your responses would be very appreciated.

8/27/2003

OP Zuma says: "Dream Guides?

Last night I had a lucid dream which involved a character who was teaching me about lucid dreams. He did some amazing things and told me about some cool stuff I found it really interesting. He was a factory owner at this factory I was in... i was already lucid at this point and he told me that he would increase the clarity of my dream and all of a sudden the dream was much more vivid and everything had tremendous detail... it was crazy. Once my surroundings were so real I found it more difficult to fly or fly through objects... or even do some reality checks (like putting my finger through my palm) He told me that i just had to believe and that you can do anything in a lucid dream. he also told me it's possible to breathe under water.... I found this dream character very interesting.... i made a special note of what he looked like, he looked sort of like a cartoon character but maybe I'll see him again.

I was wondering if anyone else had dream characters that helped you guide through you through your lucid dream or helped makea new dreamscape or something along those lines?"

Aneas: "Hello Zuma,

I began my lucid dreaming experience at age 6. My first lucid dream began with a guide teaching me how to control my movements. This guide was instrumental in my dreaming ability and taught me much through many dreams over a period of years. He would always speak to me over my left shoulder and I never saw a face, although in my first lucid dream I had the impression of Casper the friendly ghost (hey, I was only six)!"

9/2/2003 Weather Control

As for all that I do, I just think it. However, When I first began I would generate a certain feeling during the dream, depending upon what aspect of weather I wished to raise. For instance, when I wanted to raise a storm I invoke that feeling that I think everyone experiences during a storm. I enjoy controlling the winds most. I have tornados and Rode the winds as if I were the storm itself. Losing your normal physical form is a trip.

9/23/2003

I have been successfully dreaming lucidly and astrally projecting (there IS a difference) for 32 years. Referring to an unknown entity as a "demon" is what humans do when they don't understand something. What we do not understand, we fear. Fear is an enemy that is easily vanquished by confidence and knowledge.

I don't mind admitting that this makes my case weak:

It's so easy, just feel it.

Could it be that through some anomaly that his waking consciousness is not switching off during sleep like it does for most people. There must be other examples of similar anomalies that people come to view as a gift or a curse. In reading a number of pasts posts, he seems to be coming from the point of view that it used to feel like a gift, but now, not so much.

Aneas, could you elaborate? Or is this someone else pretending to be Aneas?

Wow, now I know why my ears were burning! Some quick responses:

Sivason: "basically correct" leaves a little room for one or two of his stance being a little less clear, or substantial. I was just stating 'why' he is so good at this sort of interaction.

Better to have "basically correct" as a home base than "incomprehensible and unresponsive," I like to think.

JoannaB: I think it is not appropriate to say that Sageous is "basically correct" at this stage of the argument. We really have not heard a proper defense of the other side. Plus if the argument is that "there is no such thing as natural LDers" then I would want to hear more from more people who claim to be natural LDers about how they started, before being willing to be swayed by one side or the other. An argument cannot be won without a counter argument. Without a counterargument, it is just a theory.

Excellent point, and believe it or not I agree. But that aside, you may have inadvertently raised another very good point: Why don't we ever hear defenses or explanations from "natural" LD'ers when a conversation like this one unfolds? Seems odd that "naturals" go silent when pressed for details; after all, they ought to know the subject better than any of us, and articulation of answers should be easy as well, because they are their own source.

Though it's not the case here, it seems odd also that "naturals" tend to be announced in the third-person, urban-legend style (ie, I have a friend who's a natural; ask So-and-So, because he's a natural), which to me seems to be a symptom of the growing "natural" myth -- That myth being one reason I keep bringing this subject up and risk inevitable verbal body-blows by positing (with backup, BTW) that "naturals" might not exist.

Still, both are good points, JoannaB; I too would love to see some Naturals post here. This is one subject in which I would deeply appreciate being proven wrong, too, because the implications accompanying such proof are enormous.

Spaceexplorer: My question is a simple one and I'm sorry if it's already been asked. If you really are as you claim to be why have you not approached a sleep lab or scientist? Someone with such a unique ability as yourself would be valuable, you may also get a cure. If nothing else you'd be able to prove your claims. As they say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You could get that evidence and possibly a cure too, why don't you?

Excellent question, period.

Darkmatters: There does seem to be a side argument brewing about naturals, but the main thrust of this thread has been Sageous asking questions trying to get to the truth. That's not an argument, it's an investigation, or an attempt to understand. That's step one if it's to become anything else. Unless Aneas takes the same interest in getting at the truth and decides to start making sensible responses then it's not anything really, just an incomprehensible thread and it really is puzzling what his reasons were for starting it.

Investigation is a better term, Darkmatters, but I much rather would have had a real argument, of the open and friendly variety, than the investigation -- or one-sided interrogation -- that evolved here. An open conversation with well-meaning players is the best way to keep any thread from becoming harsh and incomprehensible. At least everyone else here has been willing to be such players, and we might yet get something out of it in spite of Aneas' disinterest in input.

For the sake of the natural LDer debate I feel the need to chime in. I consider myself somewhat of a natural LDer. Not that it's been happening my whole life, but just that little deliberate conscious effort was needed to kickstart my lucid dreaming career. I believe I have a thread floating around here somewhere explaining how it all started for me, but I'll try to summarize as best as possible.

Up until about a year ago, I was never lucid in my dreams and had very terrible dream recall. One night, upon falling asleep, I gradually lost control of my body while my mind stayed awake. Looking back at this experience, it felt very similar to any OBE or WILD I've achieved thus far. The weird thing is, I was able to talk and interact while all this was happening. My parents came in the room and I told them that I could barely move my body. They kept asking if they should call the paramedics. I remember saying no I'm fine! It was all weird to me, but I didn't see the need for professional assistance. Like I said I was able to interact with my external environment, all the while gradually falling deeper and deeper into a trance. When the paramedics came, things started to get REALLY weird. First off, when they first arrived and they were talking about me, they mentioned something about one of my deepest fears growing up. I had sexual problems with a women I was with once, and from this developed the fear of being gay. Now, the thing is, before this incident I had never told anyone about this fear. Yet this was the first thing they said when they came in, "Okay so this is Eric Joseph, and he's afraid to tell his dad he's gay". At this I laughed cuz I knew it was just another of my irrational fears, but still thought it was very odd. How could they get this information? So, to make a long story short, after this they pulled me on to this stretcher like thing. The exact moment they pulled me off my bed was the exact moment I fully lost control of my body. Like I said though, my mind felt completely normal and aware, just like when passing into a LD. The stretcher ride was something else too. It would speed up as my mind got more relaxed, and slow down when I got more anxious/analytical. This went on for about 3 minutes, and I felt like I was taken on a number of inclines and drops. At the peak of this experience, as I felt myself slowly being risen up this sharp incline Splash Mountain style, two metal contraptions clamped down on my fingers, jolting me back into full awareness. Disappointingly, my eyes remained closed throughout this whole experience, don't know why I never tried opening them.

But anyways, a lot more odd stuff happened that night, but I'll spare the details (sorry I'm already starting to ramble!). At the end of the night a girl came into my room and clapped her hands twice, just like in hypnosis. I felt my mind and body suddenly being freed from it's trance like state at the sight of this stimuli.

So now to get to the point: every night after this incident at the hospital, I started to have all kinds of OBEs and LDs. They just seemed to happen, it wasn't like I was trying to purposely achieve them or anything. It wasn't until months after that i started to come on here and research all the various phenomenon I've been going through. So while my story might not be the typical one of a natural LDer, from my experience I know they have to exist. It's almost as if the people involved with my hospital trip that night taught my how to LD, as weird as it sounds. I just find it very odd that after this experience, which very closely resembled a dream itself, I was able to LD almost every night.

Not to defend Aneas or anything (he is being incredibly short with us), one thing he said rang true for me. Every time I dream now, I feel like I am at least somewhat lucid and aware of the state. A lot of time this info won't get me anywhere though, like it won't really click. The implications of what it means to be dreaming don't really hit me, and I just go about the dream like normal. I'm still aware of things being "off" or different from my normal waking reality, pretty much every time I dream, but my mind just kind of accepts this as reality without really pondering it, almost like living a completely separate life. So his advice of "just feel it" is somewhat true, although he should probably explain more if he was really trying to help anyone.

Oh yeah, and if anyone has any ideas of what happened that night of the hospital, please do share! I still don't fully know what the hell happened, and all I can do is theorize, so any help would be greatly appreciated!

That's a very confusing experience - how much of it was dream and how much real? I was assuming it was SP and that your parents talking to you was all dream, because you said you spoke to them, which you couldn't do in SP. Did you actually go to the hospital? Did they not tell you what it was you were suffering from? Much of it sounds like a typical SP experience, being taken away under scary circumstances in which you're unable to move, the characters saying things nobody but you could know, feeling yourself gliding etc. But you also imply that it actually happened? Are you sure it really happened - I mean, have you spoken to your parents about it and confirmed that paramedics actually took you to a hospital?

I had a couple of SP experiences when I was young that I absolutely thought were real - in one I was trying to sleep on a beautiful summer night with the window open and decided after a while to get up and look out at the sky because I wasn't sleepy. After a while I saw a star move - it just suddenly broke free from its stationary place and moved in a perfectly straight line for a while, then stopped dead still and became a star again. Another star did it and another, and suddenly about a dozen of them in a ring formation all came alive and started pinwheeling all over in the sky, making all kinds of crazy patterns and designs. While it was still going on I went and got my mom, who was in her room just down the hall, and we both sat and watched it in awe until the stars all stopped and became motionless again.

I told people about this for years ,secure in the knowledge that I had a credible witness, but one day I asked my mom about it and she had no idea what I was talking about. That really shook me. Then years later I learned about sleep paralysis and realized that's what it was.

Here's a good video about SP that does a good job of explaining it and why so many so-called demonic possession claims and UFO abductions etc are actually SP:

It does not even require sleep paralysis to have memories that one is absolutely sure are real but one's credible witnesses deny them. I have had conversations with my mom, where she has said that something I was sure happened and surely she must remember, but she said that if it had happened she would remember it, and she does not so it must not have happened. Of course, in such a situation is it necessarily me who is misremembering things? Anyway, I confirm the need to verify memories with one's witnesses. Although I am somewhat concerned that if I did that too thoroughly, it might shake my view of myself and what I "remember" too much.

True, but is it likely there were really some kind of weird UFO's putting on a staged performance that was aligned perfectly to be seen from my window just as I was looking out that night? Not likely - and made much less so many many years later when I got the Blu-Ray of Close Encounters and in the special features there were old TV promos for the movie that included stars moving just like the ones I had 'seen' that night (!). In fact a couple of other scenes from that movie turned out to have inspired a couple of my other dreams from the same period as well. But you're right about this - it might not have actually been SP - it could have simply been a regular dream that felt incredibly real in which the house looked exactly like it really does and everything else was also perfect in every detail. I didn't experience being paralyzed, and I wasn't in my bed during it, but it does seem to share certain factors with SP - such as being able to clearly see the room but having dream elements superimposed on it as if they're every bit as real.

I can understand my mom not remembering something like that if it really did happen (it was like 20 years later when I finally asked her about it) or maybe delibrately not remembering because if she had actually seen it it's not the kind of thing she would accept and she also has a habit of remembering things the way she wants to remember them. But your child being whisked away to a hospital in the dead of night with a frightening illness is something parents would definitely remember! If they can't recall it happening, then chances are it really didn't.

Yeah, I've been starting to think that too DarkMatters. Maybe some of what I experienced was a dream? But no, I know for certain I actually did get sent to a real, physical hospital. My parents contest to it, and I left there 8 hours later and the rest of the day stayed the same, implying that I was awake for that experience. I agree that it was some sort of SP, but like I said, it's unlike any SP I've experienced since then. It was very gradual. It took about a hour for the paramedics to arrive, and I was able to talk and interact during this time. I even remember crying in my moms arms before they came, like I somehow knew instinctually that something crazy was about to go down.

On the ambulance ride there, I recall one of the paramedics telling me "You can come back here any time you want. Like if you're mad at your dad or anything, you can come back". At the time I took this as a very weird thing for a paramedic to say, why would I want to go back to the hospital? But after much retrospection, I believe he was referring to the dream state. I know it's a ridiculous claim, and no one will probably be able to tell me I'm right or wrong because they weren't there, but it just feels good to get off my chest and get some other opinions, ya know?

But yeah, I defiantly did get sent to a hospital. My parents were there and I was holding conversations the whole night, despite the fact that I couldn't move my body ALA SP. We have pretty similar stories of the general stuff that went on that night, so I know it wasn't just me all off by myself in my own little dream land. I was still based in reality, somewhat. When I ask about the girl who clapped her hands twice,they say they didn't notice her doing that. The stretcher ride that responded to my thoughts they state was just me being taking up and down our stairs, and the sharp incline I felt at the end most of been them putting me up into the ambulance. However, this could in no way last 3 whole minutes IMO, our stairs aren't that long and ambulances aren't that high off the ground. The metal things that jammed my fingers, they say they have no idea cuz they weren't there in between my room and the hospital. They're very closed mouth about the whole ordeal.

Sorry, I feel bad I'm not trying to take over this thread! I just thought my story tied into the discussion of natural LDers and the like.

Well that wasn't just regular SP - you wouldn't be able to talk, and it wouldn't last anywhere near that long. It must have been something else that allowed you to overlay dream and reality in similar fashion. What were you treated for at the hospital?

Heh - this part is really confusing though:

Originally Posted by Caboose128

My parents contest to it

They contest it, or they confirm it?

That sounds more like a hypnotic state than anything else. Deep hypnosis/meditation. Sleep paralysis is just the act of not being able to move for a few moments after waking; none of the stuff you described are implications of Sleep Paralysis save the random sounds. I think you must have managed to hypnotize yourself. I've done something similar, that was truly terrifying yet amazing. I meditated and told myself that everytime I tried to open my eyes, I would go deeper into my subconscious... At first it was really neat, until I realized that I literally couldn't open my eyes, and I kept going further and further into my own mind everytime I panicked and tried to open them!

Perhaps your experience was along the same line as this? You told yourself you were stuck, so you really were. I spent what felt like hours in my subconscious, yet when I finally figured to reverse hypnotize/ meditate it turned out to be thirty or so minutes. Perhaps time dialation occured as a sideaffect of the hypnosis. Go to any comedian hypnosis and at the end he will ask the people that were hypnotized how much time has passed. Their guesses are always super off... Time travels differently in the recesses of the mind...

Just some thought anyway, I'm no expert and I don't pretend to be

~Raven

Something that I never see someone mention having done in these 'bored with dreams' threads is to eliminate their sense of subject and object in a dream entirely. Seems they get sick of writing stories to put themselves in because they aren't trying (or maybe don't have an easy starting point) to really push the limits of perception.

If it's so easy to be lucid in a dream it might be harder to imagine increasing the flexibility of your mind, which is what most of us have to work at just to try and become lucid, but I suppose it must be harder to figure out what to work on if you can't identify obstacles or visualize new goals any more.

Personally, I don't want to get lucid so I can be superman in a dream, I want to change how I relate to experiences. It's the difference between learning how to problem solve and rationalize, verses memorizing facts ad ad nauseum. Quantity vs. quality in other words.

Thanks for sharing, Caboose128; interesting stuff.

It sounds like others have already struck up an interesting conversation in the "What the hell happened to me?" department, so I'll keep out. However, since I opened my yap about it, I feel obliged to respond to the "natural" bit. So I will:

Originally Posted by Caboose128

For the sake of the natural LDer debate I feel the need to chime in. I consider myself somewhat of a natural LDer. Not that it's been happening my whole life, but just that little deliberate conscious effort was needed to kickstart my lucid dreaming career. I believe I have a thread floating around here somewhere explaining how it all started for me, but I'll try to summarize as best as possible.

Up until about a year ago, I was never lucid in my dreams and had very terrible dream recall...So now to get to the point: every night after this incident at the hospital, I started to have all kinds of OBEs and LDs. They just seemed to happen, it wasn't like I was trying to purposely achieve them or anything. It wasn't until months after that i started to come on here and research all the various phenomenon I've been going through. So while my story might not be the typical one of a natural LDer, from my experience I know they have to exist. It's almost as if the people involved with my hospital trip that night taught my how to LD, as weird as it sounds. I just find it very odd that after this experience, which very closely resembled a dream itself, I was able to LD almost every night.

Not to defend Aneas or anything (he is being incredibly short with us), one thing he said rang true for me. Every time I dream now, I feel like I am at least somewhat lucid and aware of the state. A lot of time this info won't get me anywhere though, like it won't really click. The implications of what it means to be dreaming don't really hit me, and I just go about the dream like normal. I'm still aware of things being "off" or different from my normal waking reality, pretty much every time I dream, but my mind just kind of accepts this as reality without really pondering it, almost like living a completely separate life. So his advice of "just feel it" is somewhat true, although he should probably explain more if he was really trying to help anyone.

I'm not sure this makes you a natural at all, from my perspective (more on that below).

This is because it was the event of that night that gave you the "artificial" boost necessary to begin to LD. Had you been a natural, you would have been LD'ing nightly at some level since childhood, and as you matured, I imagine that your developing sense of self would have made higher-level LD'ing both naturally unavoidable and a very regular, memorable, occurrence. Instead, you had essentially nothing until this event, so it was the event that artificially infused a tendency to LD into you.

This would be true even if everything that happened was just a dream (which I hope is not the case, BTW), because it was still your own psyche triggering an unconscious interest in bringing awareness into your dreams. In other words, you made it happen, or perhaps it was thrust upon you by some magical outside source; your LD'ing skills were not embedded in your DNA, they were artificially attached to your experience. So, not a natural.

As I mentioned somewhere above, I too have a sense in pretty much all of my dreams that I am dreaming (there are three rarely recurring dreams where this is not true, but that is for another time); it is pretty much as you describe it here, where I always "know" I am in a dream, but must give that knowledge a bit of a kick of self-awareness to raise the experience above the very low-level lucid it is to a "true" lucid (that was for you, Darkmatters!). I may not have said that correctly, but I sensed on reading your post that my experience regarding this sort of lucidity is quite similar to yours, and I by no means consider myself a natural. In my case, the artificial infusion was not one major moment like yours, but more a side-effect of decades of LD practice. Low-level lucidity in all dreams can certainly happen, I obviously agree, but not on its own. Your consciousness must contribute something to make this sort of lucidity happen. But:

Now, after reading and writing all that, I'm beginning to wonder if I may have gotten something very wrong in my understanding of this developing "natural" phenomenon:

Why? Not because of my unchanged skepticism about naturals, but because I'm wondering if I, in my old-school sense of language, have completely misinterpreted what's going on here!

If people are calling accomplished LD'ers -- people who taught themselves over time or in your case dramatically at once to easily spot their presence in dreams whenever they care to do so (or even when they don't care to do so) -- "naturals," just because that seems a good term, then that is just fine. Indeed, its no different then than calling accomplished LD'ers "Pros," or "Masters," as is done regularly here. This in my mind is way different that the natural ability I was discussing earlier, and if that's the case then I'm very wrong and "naturals" as defined in this way, can certainly exist -- I might even fall into the category myself.

tl;dr: By the classic definition of "natural" I was using, Caboose128, your experience does not represent being a "natural" LD'er. But, after reading your post and thinking a bit, I may have misunderstood the whole damn thing: "Natural" on these forums simply means a person who, due to long practice, sudden shock (only word I could find, sorry!) as in your case, or some other artificial infusion, has a tendency to experience very low-level lucidity in all dreams, and enjoys an ability to easily power-up that lucidity with little more than a decision. If that's the case, I can live with that and, though I don't like the term "natural," it makes a lot more sense.

And, of course, this has little to do with the OP, but at least we're talking about something!

Originally Posted by RavenOfShadow

none of the stuff you described are implications of Sleep Paralysis save the random sounds.

Did you watch the video? It actually very closely paralleled the alien abduction type of sleep paralysis quite closely, but with paramedics instead of aliens. Sometimes it's demons or unknown beings, but usually it begins in bed with paralysis and fear, then the beings come in and take you away, which is accompanied by the feelings of acceleration and sweeping gliding movement just as he described, and then to their hospital or spaceship or wherever, where there are often bizarre medical experiments done, and then returned to bed just as they're waking up, or they often don't recall how they got back. But if you consider that his parents might not have actually been there, that he might have dreamed them and talking to them as well, then the whole thing fits almost perfectly. Except of course for the fact that they apparently confirmed the hospital visit.

But it could well have been some kind of fever - those quite often create SP style symptoms and also induce all manner of powerful lucid experiences.

^^ Do my eyes deceive me? A discussion of SP in its proper context? You're going to confuse people, Darkmatters!

Sageous, couldn't someone be a natural all there life at anything and just not get the chance to express that talent? For example say a natural on the piano or something. If they never came across a piano or never even knew that pianos existed? This could be different since lucid dreaming is a mental task so im purely just asking, wondering.

@OP - If I was constantly lucid from the time I closed my eyes to the time I opened them, the dream world isn't the only world that I would be God of. You say to be careful what you wish for, but you have been given a gift. You just need to explore more ways of using that. I've wished and worked toward this ever since I started LDing .

That is, if he is telling the truth, of course . Not my place to judge.

Originally Posted by rastro13

Sageous, couldn't someone be a natural all there life at anything and just not get the chance to express that talent? For example say a natural on the piano or something. If they never came across a piano or never even knew that pianos existed? This could be different since lucid dreaming is a mental task so im purely just asking, wondering.

Sure. But you're correct; this is different. Innate talent, like playing a piano for instance, is simply an agreeable arrangement of "wiring" long present in the brain (i.e., eye-hand coordination, sound recognition, focus), while "naturally" LD'ing represents new wiring that contradicts what's already there ... your brain would be wired to be both awake and asleep at the same time. This is not impossible, I'm sure (what really is?), but extremely unlikely.

No, I believe you are right in your original definition of "natural" Sageous, don't fret! I guess natural isn't the best term to use in my case. I just thought it kinda fit because no real effort, that I was aware of at least, was needed to start becoming lucid, as opposed to those who have to practice awareness and RC's for months before seeing any results. It was almost as if my ability to become lucid and sense the dream space was "naturally" there in my brain all along, and something about that event just triggered it. But I'm not positive though I'm just speculating!

Darkmatters- Woops I meant they confirm it! There was no official diagnosis given, at least that they made aware to me. I've asked my parents a couple times why they even called the hospital in the first place, after all I kept telling them there was no need to right before they came! The best answer I get though is that they didn't know what was going on and they were worried. Who knows...I believe it though. I know perception can often be wrong, but at the time I've never been so sure of something in my life. Even to this day that truth still sticks with me, even though I don't quite understand what it all means yet.

RavenofShadow- It did seem a lot like hypnosis, I agree. Especially considering that girl clapping her hands twice when she entered the room, and my reaction to it. In all of my 21 years of life, I have never seen anybody do this outside of hypnosis or those special clap on lights . But then the question remains, for me at least, how would they get me under this type of hypnosis without me knowing? There's just so many unknowns. But anyways, don't hypnosis and SP often go together? The only reason I think some form of sleep paralysis or REM atonia was involved was because of the inability to move my body. It's just weird, I've never experienced a gradual SP like I did on that night!

Just too add, is it possible for someone to not know how they achieve lucidity, because as soon as they are in a dream they are instantly lucid, so there are no steps for them to get there? As a response to natural lucid dreaming, I had 4 lucid dreams, before i really knew what to call them, and definitely before i knew they could be induced (the last "natural" one was 7 years before I found this site). I had very little control, they were extremely scary experiences, all had been preceded by true sleep paralysis. I remember the second time the most clearly, I was 10 years old, frozen in place in my bed, ears were ringing like crazy, i could see thousands of little shrimps descending from my ceiling on webs, getting closer and closer to my face, as soon as they were about to hit me the ringing stopped and i jumped of bed, ran to turn on the light, but light switch didn't work the first few times i tried it, i was frantically pushing it on and off, hoping it would work. Eventually I stopped for a sec and really really hoped it would work, i flicked it on, and to my suprise, it actually worked, simultaneously i started floating off the ground, this is where i became lucid, I have had flying dreams all my life, and had tried to fly a couple times when i was awake (Jumped off my roof 20 ft into a snow bank when i was 4, somehow came out unscathed). I realized, this must be a dream and proceeded to instantly wake up (or so i thought, was a FA), as I opened my door, i was greeted by a banshee screaming into my face, and woke up again (for real this time). I then ran screaming into my parents room, that was probably the scariest nightmare i have had, just from the fact it was in a FA, and i thought it was real.

Originally Posted by Caboose128

The best answer I get though is that they didn't know what was going on and they were worried.

Ok, that makes sense - they couldn't figure out what was going on, but after a while I guess you snapped out of it so they sent you packing. Ok, my curiosity is satisfied - thanks for answering.

Sageous - when I hear talk of 'naturals' I never took it to mean they've always been able to do it, but rather that it was usually triggered by nightmares when they were kids. Usually it's kids who have really bad nightmares night after night and the terror of it forces them to learn how to either wake themselves up or to take control of the dreams. So that would fall under the same heading as Caboose's experience in a way - though occurring over a series of nights rather than all at once. Yeah, I've never heard of anybody who claims to have just always known how to LD without some experience like that causing it (or by learning the techniques and practicing until it started to work).

So I guess 'natural' just in the sense that they didn't have to learn and practice.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Ok, that makes sense - they couldn't figure out what was going on, but after a while I guess you snapped out of it so they sent you packing. Ok, my curiosity is satisfied - thanks for answering.

Hahah yeah I guess. Thats what my parents say at least. I've never been able to contact the hospital to get their side of the story though. But something just struck me as very odd though after thinking about it all. My parents told me I was admitted into the physiatric ward. Now why would they call this department when the problem was primarily focused in my body? I couldn't move my body and didn't know what was happening. That's all I told them. It wasn't until after the whole ordeal when I was trying to make sense of it that they attributed everything to "weed hallucinations", saying I had some sort of psychotic breakdown from some weed I smoked 5 hours earlier. It's all a little fishy if you ask me. How would they know to admit me to the psych ward before any of my "hallucinations" actually occurred? Hmm..I got some serious collaborating to do!

Psychology Today

The Mystery of Deep Sleep

by John Cline Ph.D

on 11-Oct-2010

***

The Mystery of Deep Sleep | Psychology Today

***

"If Wilber is correct, then some advanced practitioners of meditation may actually be able to maintain a form of conscious awareness of even the formless void of deep sleep".

R U one of these amazing individuals that are aware during Deep Dreamless Sleep Aneas?

and Wow! you are one of the oldest membrrs of Dreamviews.

It occurred to me: why is Aneas posting now as opposed to at other times only 300+ posts in 10 years is not much.

Are you experiencing an unusual crisis and seeking help?

Is this a test of checking out what the current members of dreamviews are like? I would think that someone who has been around this site this long would have had a very different community experience over the years, could be interesting.

Originally Posted by debrajane

Psychology Today

The Mystery of Deep Sleep

by John Cline Ph.D

on 11-Oct-2010

***

The Mystery of Deep Sleep | Psychology Today

***

"If Wilber is correct, then some advanced practitioners of meditation may actually be able to maintain a form of conscious awareness of even the formless void of deep sleep".

R U one of these amazing individuals that are aware during Deep Dreamless Sleep Aneas?

and Wow! you are one of the oldest membrrs of Dreamviews.

Debra, I can do this using my own traing in W.I.L.D. I often use a method that differs from what is taught in the new tutorial. I always refered to it as a dream trance. I can, on a good night, be highly aware through each stage of sleep, dreamless or not, for up to about two hours. I must say that it does not seem to refresh my body as much. Perhaps if I can do it for 2 hours, then another could do it all night, but the OP is reffering to never being able to get out of this state. It really would drive one nuts! Also, most of us are open to the idea of a brain dissorder or evolutionary difference resulting in some disturbed sleep that seems fully lucid as a standerd. Open to the possabilty, but full of unanswered questions.

Originally Posted by Ksero

Just too add, is it possible for someone to not know how they achieve lucidity, because as soon as they are in a dream they are instantly lucid, so there are no steps for them to get there?

Sure. Indeed, kids who get good at lucid dreaming to duck nightmares may be doing so without a thought to what they're doing, only that they have to do something, and recognizing that knowing the giant monster chasing you is not real can be most helpful. After the kid wakes up, how he got lucid would not matter. And, later in life, grown-up versions of those kids could very likely tap that same ability, still without really knowing how they did it, and add their self-awareness to make it a true LD. Giant dream monsters aside, I think I envy those kids!

Your case stands as another way to become lucid without knowing how you did it, except this time the "way" is more of a medical than psychological one. Being frozen in actual SP can be terrifying, and that terror is an excellent tool for opening your mind, and awareness, to other possibilities, as it did with yours. Your escape from the "clutches" of SP woke you up to the potentials of LD'ing in a pretty clear way, I think, and the "method" you used to make your escape would have been seared in your memory -- seared enough, I notice that you still remember doing it even after that nasty FA that would have caused a lesser event (or most events, for that matter) to be forgotten.

So, in a sense, you did "know" how you achieved lucidity, there was just other stuff going on that overshadowed that knowledge.