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    Thread: Is it possible that some people just can't Lucid Dream?

    1. #1
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      Is it possible that some people just can't Lucid Dream?

      Like we know some people are naturals, but is it possible that some people can't just do it? I've been trying for 6 months and I wonder that it might be me.
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      Unless you have some kind of ailment, no. You might just have below average 'talent', some people have to practice for years before they succeed.

      Give me a rundown what you've done for how long and maybe i can help you find a more effective path.

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      i think as long you dream and dont have some mental disorder everyone can lucid dream.

      all i know your practice is not continuous and constant. it needs consistent effort and practice. maybe this might be the reason?
      i know that hukif was very dedicated and tried for years to have his first one but for him the reason was that his dreams where so vivid and realistic that every RC just failed until he found his holy grail the Gravity RC. now he has several lucids a night so again dedication and persistence will pay of some day^^

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      Good thread

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      Quote Originally Posted by KNightNox View Post
      Unless you have some kind of ailment, no. You might just have below average 'talent', some people have to practice for years before they succeed.

      Give me a rundown what you've done for how long and maybe i can help you find a more effective path.
      I've been trying for around 6 months. I took two months off due to stress. I mainly try FILD but the thing is, I usually am too tired to wake up for it, for starters. I repeat to myself that I will Ld tonight during the day or I will do RC as I dream but sometimes I feel like I am saying it in a half assed manner. I record in my dream journal during most days and it is pretty good recall.

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      Quote Originally Posted by kamenriderbaron View Post
      Like we know some people are naturals, but is it possible that some people can't just do it? I've been trying for 6 months and I wonder that it might be me.
      First: No, we don't know that some people are naturals... it seems that, with incredibly few exceptions, everyone must learn at some point to lucid dream. Though we all will likely experience lucidity once or twice in life without ever trying, consistent, "natural," LD'ing is a talent that pretty much everyone must acquire from scratch, usually with lots of focus and hard work.

      And sure, there could very well be a couple of people on the planet who cannot, for mental or medical reasons, learn to successfully LD, but that number is probably incredibly small as well, and likely does not include you. That said:

      Quote Originally Posted by kamenriderbaron View Post
      I've been trying for around 6 months. I took two months off due to stress. I mainly try FILD but the thing is, I usually am too tired to wake up for it, for starters. I repeat to myself that I will Ld tonight during the day or I will do RC as I dream but sometimes I feel like I am saying it in a half assed manner. I record in my dream journal during most days and it is pretty good recall.
      Six months is not a long time, especially if it your practice is interrupted; give yourself more of it. Also, if FILD isn't working for you, try something else -- I would recommend that you learn MILD, with the intention of achieving DILD's. If you really want to WILD (FILD is a WILD technique, BTW), the elements of MILD are also very helpful to achieving them as well.

      So: It is far too early to wonder if you (or anyone) is naturally unable to achieve LD's. Give yourself more time, stay focused on your practice, and try something new (like MIILD).

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      I've been trying for around 6 months. I took two months off due to stress. I mainly try FILD but the thing is, I usually am too tired to wake up for it, for starters. I repeat to myself that I will Ld tonight during the day or I will do RC as I dream but sometimes I feel like I am saying it in a half assed manner. I record in my dream journal during most days and it is pretty good recall.

      As Sageous said, 6 months isn't that long. You also took two months off, which is horrible for practice and reduces your practice time to 4 months, which is basically nothing if you use the wrong approach.


      The problems i see with what you do are:
      • You use too many Techniques. MILD and FILD are very different and it's known that piling up Techniques hurts you more than it helps.
      • You are stressed. Meditate for gods sake, i'm sure you spend as much time a anyone on Social Media, Reddit and the like. Take some of that time to meditate, not only is it good against stress but has been shown to boost many aspects of LD practice.
      • You aren't committed, taking time off is the worst you can do, and if you are ready to stop after 4 measly months of practice, your resolve to learn lucid dreaming isn't great.
      • You don't research, lucid dreaming is almost purely mental, that's why knowledge is everything. A bit of browsing would have shown you that learning lucid dreaming can take a long time and Diligence is key.


      My advice is:
      • Diligence. Above all you have to be consistent and thorough in your practice.
      • Motivation. Search for the reasons you want to lucid dream, then write them down. Fortify your Resolve.
      • Patience. Lucid dreaming doesn't require focus at all times, it actually often seems to work better if you don't think about it as much. However it does need endurance.
      • Dream Recall, you say yours is good, but if it isn't consistently above 3 full Dreams per night, then work on it. Dream Recall can give you LDs by itself if practiced seriously.
      • Awareness, especially when doing RCs. Many people fall into the habit of just doing the motions without ever truly believing that they could be dreaming. In reality actually asking yourself if you're dreaming is the most important part, you only do the motions to gain certainty.
      • Meditation. For you especially, this seems useful.


      I hope this helps and good luck in your practice!
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      "It turns out, the ability to experience lucid dreams differs wildly from one person to another."

      "The research showed that the brains of people with high and low dream lucidity were different. Subjects with high lucidity had greater gray matter volume in the frontopolar cortex, compared to those with low lucidity. This brain region also showed higher activity during thought monitoring in both high- and low-lucidity subjects, with stronger increases in the high-lucidity group. The scientists concluded that lucid dreaming and metacognition share some underlying mechanisms, particularly with regards to thought monitoring. This relationship had been previously suspected, but never before explored at the neural level."

      "A recent study, published earlier this month in the Journal of Neuroscience, set out to determine if people with high and low dream lucidity were also dissimilar in their metacognitive ability, that is, the ability to reflect on, and report, one’s mental states."- sourced from, The Neuroscience of Lucid Dreams - Scientific American Blog Network

      This may seem depressing, that some people are physiologically disadvantaged when it comes to Lucid dreaming, but there are things which have been proven to remedy this situation.

      "They study is the first to document meditation-produced changes in the brain’s grey matter over time. The team that conducted the study was lead by Harvard-affiliated researchers at Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH)."

      "There was increased grey-matter density in the hippocampus, known to be important for learning and memory, and in structures associated with self-awareness, compassion, and introspection."- Sourced from, https://www.davidwolfe.com/meditatio...er-in-8-weeks/

      "Participating in an eight-week mindfulness meditation program appears to make measurable changes in brain regions associated with memory, sense of self, empathy, and stress."- Sourced from, Eight weeks to a better brain | Harvard Gazette

      "In a meta-analysis of 21 neuroimaging studies, eight brain regions were found to be consistently altered, including areas key to meta-awareness (frontopolar cortex/Brodmann area 10), exteroceptive and interoceptive body awareness (sensory cortex and insular cortex), memory consolidation and reconsolidation (hippocampus), self and emotion regulation (anterior cingulate cortex and orbitofrontal cortex), and intra- and interhemispheric communication (superior longitudinal fasciculus; corpus callosum)[13] These changes were distinguished by density increases in grey matter regions and white matter pathways in the brains of individuals who meditate in comparison to individuals who do not. Of all areas with reported findings, a greater number of structural changes were found in the left hemisphere."- Sourced from, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_...and_meditation

      More on the frontopolar cortex which is part of the "anterior-most portion of the prefrontal cortex in the human brain."

      "Although this region is extensive in humans, its function is poorly understood.[3] Koechlin & Hyafil have proposed that processing of 'cognitive branching' is the core function of the frontopolar cortex.[11] Cognitive branching enables a previously running task to be maintained in a pending state for subsequent retrieval and execution upon completion of the ongoing one."- Sourced from, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brodmann_area_10

      Some important factors which determine a person probability of having a lucid dream and their quality.

      1. Knowledge: Knowing it is possible. Knowing how to go about doing it, I mean the methods.
      2. Skill: Ones level of skill in the application of learned injunctions or methods.
      3. Perseverance: Consistence in practice in the face of laziness, distraction, forgetfulness, and temporary failure.
      4. Capability: I mean ones neurological capability, strength and complexity in those neural regions responsible for generating and upholding Lucid dreaming.
      "Parable.- Those thinkers in whom all stars move in cyclic orbits are not the most profound: whoever looks into himself as into vast space and carries galaxies in himself also knows how irregular all galaxies are; they lead into the chaos and labyrinth of existence."- Friedrich Nietzsche, the gay science, First published in 1882 revised in 1887, translated by Walter Kaufmann [/SIGPIC]

    9. #9
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      Thanks for the infos valis. do you know if regular lucid dreaming also increases the grey matter or if there is any other alteration in the brain structure noticeable? and maybe in comparison to meditation?
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      More interesting articles I wish I mentioned in the first post.

      "A 2012 study looked at the neural correlates of lucid dreaming using EEG and fMRI scanning. They found:
      During lucid dreaming the bilateral precuneus, cuneus, parietal lobules, and prefrontal and occipito-temporal cortices activated strongly as compared with non-lucid REM sleep.”- Sourced from, NeuroLogica Blog » The Brains of Lucid Dreamers

      "They found people who reported higher levels of lucid dreaming were also the ones with more gray matter in the anterior prefrontal cortex — thus making this part of the brain larger."

      "The findings fall in line with previous research finding lucid dreamers are more insightful. The same study also found they were better at problem solving, specifically with regards to recognizing patterns."- Sourced from, "http://www.medicaldaily.com/lucid-dreaming-associated-more-pronounced-self-reflection-everyday-life-319326"

      Quote Originally Posted by RelaxAndDream View Post
      Thanks for the infos valis. do you know if regular lucid dreaming also increases the grey matter or if there is any other alteration in the brain structure noticeable? and maybe in comparison to meditation?
      On these points.

      I could not find anything which correlated the experience of lucid dreaming in itself with neural complexification, but the methods which make Lucidity more likely have been proven to, from meditation, to reality testing, to "thinking about our own thoughts; being self-reflective." But I would have to imagine that it could be said reasonably that Lucid dreams in themselves do cause some structural change in the brain as you mentioned, in that novel Chemical-electrical state-patterns always to my knowledge have long term structural effects. The more often the lucid dream state pattern is present, the greater its intensity, the longer its appearance, the stronger is its potential for long term neurological renovation.

      I think there is strong correlations to how meditation works, in ways similar to LDing on that point, I mean how the very presence of the LD state-pattern alters the brain. There are two ways meditations intensity and efficiency increases, one is the increasing skill and neurological capability in reference to the application of the methods, specifically concentration and mindfulness. Then meditations effects increase by the repeated generation of the meditative state which is distinct from and arises from those two factors. So not only does the application of concentration and mindfulness increase certain brain regions, but the unique state-pattern which they produce, which is in some fashion distinct from them, also changes the brain by its very presence. I think this process would also apply to lucid dreaming, in that lucid dreaming could change the brain from the inside, by its very presence. There have been much fewer studies done about lucid dreaming compared to meditation, perhaps soon we will know more surely, but I think we can reasonably say that yes the very presence of the LD state seen as distinct from the methods which produce it, does or at least can cause long term structural changes.
      "Parable.- Those thinkers in whom all stars move in cyclic orbits are not the most profound: whoever looks into himself as into vast space and carries galaxies in himself also knows how irregular all galaxies are; they lead into the chaos and labyrinth of existence."- Friedrich Nietzsche, the gay science, First published in 1882 revised in 1887, translated by Walter Kaufmann [/SIGPIC]

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      I do remember my dreams in great detail but I worry that I may be trying too hard. When I try MILD, I try to do it once an hour and repeat my mantra. The thing is, I feel like I don't focus on it when I say it and I end up saying it alot. I feel displeased at times that I didn't say it right so this may affect my ld. Any tips?

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      Quote Originally Posted by KNightNox View Post
      As Sageous said, 6 months isn't that long. You also took two months off, which is horrible for practice and reduces your practice time to 4 months, which is basically nothing if you use the wrong approach.


      The problems i see with what you do are:
      • You use too many Techniques. MILD and FILD are very different and it's known that piling up Techniques hurts you more than it helps.
      • You are stressed. Meditate for gods sake, i'm sure you spend as much time a anyone on Social Media, Reddit and the like. Take some of that time to meditate, not only is it good against stress but has been shown to boost many aspects of LD practice.
      • You aren't committed, taking time off is the worst you can do, and if you are ready to stop after 4 measly months of practice, your resolve to learn lucid dreaming isn't great.
      • You don't research, lucid dreaming is almost purely mental, that's why knowledge is everything. A bit of browsing would have shown you that learning lucid dreaming can take a long time and Diligence is key.


      My advice is:
      • Diligence. Above all you have to be consistent and thorough in your practice.
      • Motivation. Search for the reasons you want to lucid dream, then write them down. Fortify your Resolve.
      • Patience. Lucid dreaming doesn't require focus at all times, it actually often seems to work better if you don't think about it as much. However it does need endurance.
      • Dream Recall, you say yours is good, but if it isn't consistently above 3 full Dreams per night, then work on it. Dream Recall can give you LDs by itself if practiced seriously.
      • Awareness, especially when doing RCs. Many people fall into the habit of just doing the motions without ever truly believing that they could be dreaming. In reality actually asking yourself if you're dreaming is the most important part, you only do the motions to gain certainty.
      • Meditation. For you especially, this seems useful.


      I hope this helps and good luck in your practice!
      1. Thanks for the help. I was wondering, if I repeat my mantra once an hour during the day and before bed and do try to attempt FILD, does that sound like too much?

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      Quote Originally Posted by kamenriderbaron View Post
      Like we know some people are naturals, but is it possible that some people can't just do it? I've been trying for 6 months and I wonder that it might be me.
      Come on over to the DVA DILD class if you like: another member who opened a workbook there had the same concern as you, and he just had his first satisfying lucid dream!
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      FryingMan's Unified Theory of Lucid Dreaming: Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall -- Both Day and Night[link]
      FryingMan's Dream Recall Tips -- Awesome Links
      “No amount of security is worth the suffering of a mediocre life chained to a routine that has killed your dreams.”
      "...develop stability in awareness and your dreams will change in extraordinary ways" -- TYoDaS

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      1. Thanks for the help. I was wondering, if I repeat my mantra once an hour during the day and before bed and do try to attempt FILD, does that sound like too much?

      Not too much, too different. All Induction Techniques fall into three categories, WILD, DILD and support Techniques. WILD and DILD are not only genres, but skills, you are using FILD as your main Technique, so you should bring up your WILD 'skill'. Sprinkling in some DILD practice will only distract you since the approach is so much different.

      Another thing, while anyone can LD, WILD can be a lot harder than DILD, especially for a beginner. So you might want to change your strategy, if you do i can give you some principles that often get buried under Techniques.

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      Oh, well I was doing that for the past months..does that mean all my progress I made and effort was for nothing? As well, I do want to keep my mind on lucid dreaming in order to motivate and excite me for it. You said that one shouldn't focus too much on it, could you elaborate?
      Last edited by kamenriderbaron; 09-09-2016 at 01:41 PM.

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      Oh, well I was doing that for the past months..does that mean all my progress I made and effort was for nothing?

      Hardly, you did RCs, have good enough Dream Recall and WILD teaches useful things as well, such as transitioning from waking to sleep which helps DEILD and it's close to Meditation which you need to develop proficiency in too.

      Also, it's your choice to keep going, maybe you are actually about to have a lucid dream. There is a subform on this website, entirely dedicated to WILDing, if you read up on it in there you can find guidelines, solutions to any problems and threads about problems you don't even know you have.

      I'm just a stranger on the internet, i don't know your life. Only you have enough Information about your attempts to make that call.

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      You said that one shouldn't focus too much on it, could you elaborate?

      I said it doesn't require focus at all times.

      The first thing is that people who've just given up on lucid dreaming and people who only practice but don't really care often get results.

      As i see it there are two ways to go about learning lucid dreaming. One is the hyper approach, you immediately go into ADA, constantly do RCs and are generally convinced that you will have a LD soon. The other one, the one that most people can actually do is the grind. LD practice isn't about excitement if you aren't totally sure of yourself, excitement is even the reason early LDs are often cut short. What Practice for normal people is all about is Diligence, which comes through Routine, and routine is boring. Additionally Meditation which boosts LD Practice is used to become serene.

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      Ok, so if I have the intent to do FILD, can i still repeat my mantras to keep focus during the day though?

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      Ok, so if I have the intent to do FILD, can i still repeat my mantras to keep focus during the day though?
      If the Mantra is related to FILD, yes. I don't see what focus you are trying to keep up though.

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      Like focusing on my mantra. When I say it, sometimes I feel like I am saying it without meaning, so I end up repeating it alot and I think this puts some pressure on me. There I such thing as trying too hard correct?

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      Quote Originally Posted by KNightNox View Post
      Hardly, you did RCs, have good enough Dream Recall and WILD teaches useful things as well, such as transitioning from waking to sleep which helps DEILD and it's close to Meditation which you need to develop proficiency in too.

      Also, it's your choice to keep going, maybe you are actually about to have a lucid dream. There is a subform on this website, entirely dedicated to WILDing, if you read up on it in there you can find guidelines, solutions to any problems and threads about problems you don't even know you have.

      I'm just a stranger on the internet, i don't know your life. Only you have enough Information about your attempts to make that call.
      On the side, I would like to share two experiences I've had with FILD:

      I took a nap and when I was, I felt my conscience slipping and even though I was lying on my bed, I felt like all distorted and as if I was walking and standing up with some kind of sheet over me even though I felt I was on my bed. it was so realistic and I felt like I could summon someone, so I tried to summon a girls hands and I felt like I could hodl it breifly before it faded away and I woke up.

      The other day I tried FILD and I woke up 4 hrs after sleep and when I tried FILD with my eyes closed, I saw flashing purple lights and could feel my room becoming lighter. I did an RC after that and then I woke up after. I'm not sure what this means.

      What are your thoughts on my experiences?

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      Often when you are dreaming, certain things will happen that do not normally occur in waking life. These are clues that you are dreaming, also known as dream signs.

      When you wake up from every dream, you should write down all of the dream signs you missed. By doing this, you are teaching yourself that the dream signs you experience are dream signs.

      When you learn that a given dream sign is a dream sign you will then expect that dream sign to be a dream sign. This way when you experience that it during a dream you will become lucid from it.

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      As others have said, the answer is "no" absent some neurologic injury. I imagine that unless an individual has had a stroke, TIA, or are on some medication known to severely suppress normal dream/sleep patterns, that lucid dreaming is within the capabilities of all persons. Since LDing is (I would argue) a "learned skill" - as with any other endeavors, people will progress at different rates. The KEY (and I cannot emphasize this enough) as with all other undertakings, is DON'T GIVE UP!!! Success will surely follow if you read, learn, hang out here at Dreamviews and PRACTICE.
      Last edited by DoubleHelix; 09-09-2016 at 11:32 PM.
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      Does anyone else have trouble with believing they can LD. Each day I tell myself that tonight is the night, but I've failed so many times that honestly I am unsure and I think this could have an effect. Thoughts?

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      like some people already suggested i would start with MILD/DILD and let FILD/WILD go for some time. start over, new technique, new chances to get lucid and therefore you can refresh you believe!

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