• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




    Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 LastLast
    Results 76 to 100 of 123
    Like Tree91Likes

    Thread: Age and Lucidity

    1. #76
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV 6 months registered
      lenscaper's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2019
      LD Count
      lots
      Gender
      Posts
      255
      Likes
      163
      DJ Entries
      1

      Lucidity Now! Lucidity Now!

      As a slightly older oneironaut I watched all the original Seinfeld episodes as they came out. Last night, as I was coming out of some SSILD cycles and sleep was closing in, I remembered this one for some reason:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW_s6EqOxqY

      I gave it a shot as a transition mantra and it worked unbelievably well!!!

      Zthread likes this.
      The more I gaze....the more I crave to see

      lucid days....lucid nights

    2. #77
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points Veteran Second Class

      Join Date
      May 2014
      Posts
      132
      Likes
      59
      DJ Entries
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      As a slightly older oneironaut I watched all the original Seinfeld episodes as they came out. Last night, as I was coming out of some SSILD cycles and sleep was closing in, I remembered this one for some reason:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW_s6EqOxqY

      I gave it a shot as a transition mantra and it worked unbelievably well!!!

      Hilarious! Also could see that working!!

      Seinfeld was such a great show. Want to re-watch all the episodes at some point.
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-23-2019 at 02:49 AM.

    3. #78
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points Veteran Second Class

      Join Date
      May 2014
      Posts
      132
      Likes
      59
      DJ Entries
      1
      Lenscaper, I was just rereading your original post on this topic....

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      I am 67 years old....a young 67, though.

      I stumbled into lucid dreaming three weeks ago when a pretty incongruous event in a somewhat threatening dream caused me to say, "Wait....this is a dream!" I was able to change the circumstances and deal with the issue at hand and I woke up profoundly amazed.
      Amazing experience! Did you even know the term "lucid dream" when that happened to you?

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      Since then things have happened very quickly....it's a bit like an ember falling on a dry brush pile. In these last three weeks I have searched out every bit of info I can find on this amazing thing called lucid dreaming and I have immersed myself in "lucidity training". I have said those same words in three different dreams in that time. Almost all of my dreams seem to now have some degree of lucidity and I feel it having a very interesting effect on my life in general.
      Sounds like you're a natural LDing person! That's so great!

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      Any other old folks out there that can relate to this?
      I can, except I was only 5-10 years old when I had a spontaneous LD that was similar to your experience, including the threatening aspect. A bee was chasing me. Suddenly I realized it was a dream, so I stopped, looked at the bee, and told it to go ahead and sting me. It just flew away in disgust. I was amazed at the idea of being able to realize I was dreaming during a dream, but at that young age I didn't know what to do with it. However, I never forgot about it. As an adult, I eventually got into LDing. Mostly I found that supplements worked best for me. (Galantamine, choline bitartrate, theanine, nicotine, etc.)

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      How does age affect the ability to experience lucid dreams as a beginner?
      I'm now almost 64. I'm not a beginner, but also don't consider myself to be an expert. Anyway, as I got older, I gradually got to the point where LD supplements usually gave me insomnia. So I pretty much stopped using them for the last 10 or 15 years.

      Then late last year I was discussing LD supplements with someone on another forum (Deep Dreaming). He mentioned the idea of using extended-release supplements. I thought they might be worth a try, because they might not give me insomnia. Unfortunately there's no such thing as extended-release LD supplements. At least I couldn't find any. However, in searching for them, I found something even better: empty delayed-release capsules that can be filled with whatever supplement you want. I ordered some online. It turns out they work perfectly! So now I'm using LD supplements regularly, without them causing any insomnia. Basically the delayed-release capsules provide enough time for me to get to sleep before the effects of the supplements kick in.
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-23-2019 at 02:53 AM.

    4. #79
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV 6 months registered
      lenscaper's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2019
      LD Count
      lots
      Gender
      Posts
      255
      Likes
      163
      DJ Entries
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      Did you even know the term "lucid dream" when that happened to you?
      Hey, Zthread......

      That's a cool story about the bee.....very similar to my first experience.

      I had never heard of lucid dreaming when that happened. My eyes were opened wide that next day when I stumbled on the term and realized that I could actually train myself in this discipline. To say that I immersed myself in all things lucid would be a bit of an understatement.

      I don't consider myself to be a natural lucid dreamer but now, in retrospect, I see that I have always had pretty clear dreams that may have, at times, even been lucid. Throughout my adult life I have trained and practiced in other disciplines that seem to have prepared me for this wonderful lucid journey. I have practiced and taught T'ai Chi for many, many years and I trained in the Japanese martial art of Aikido for many years before becoming Sensei. Those disciplines taught me to overcome distractions and abide in an aware state of mind a lot, which has been helpful if attaining lucidity.

      I have not tried any supplements. I want to achieve a natural state of lucidity that can be incorporated into my life. These days I have begun to realize that I need to work toward being able to achieve dream lucidity spontaneously because I just don't have enough time in the night to deploy the techniques I have learned and still get the sleep that I need to be sharp in the morning and at work.

      To that end I have really ramped up my daytime practice. If I can achieve a state of pure presence as much as possible during my work day, I will achieve that naturally in my dreams and that will allow me to cut through the fantasies and illusions of those dreams right away and achieve lucidity spontaneously. It's starting to work.
      The more I gaze....the more I crave to see

      lucid days....lucid nights

    5. #80
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points Veteran Second Class

      Join Date
      May 2014
      Posts
      132
      Likes
      59
      DJ Entries
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      Hey, Zthread......

      That's a cool story about the bee.....very similar to my first experience.
      What happened in your first experience, if you don't mind my asking? (No problem at all if you do mind!)

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      I had never heard of lucid dreaming when that happened. My eyes were opened wide that next day when I stumbled on the term and realized that I could actually train myself in this discipline. To say that I immersed myself in all things lucid would be a bit of an understatement.
      That's great!

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      I don't consider myself to be a natural lucid dreamer but now, in retrospect, I see that I have always had pretty clear dreams that may have, at times, even been lucid. Throughout my adult life I have trained and practiced in other disciplines that seem to have prepared me for this wonderful lucid journey. I have practiced and taught T'ai Chi for many, many years and I trained in the Japanese martial art of Aikido for many years before becoming Sensei. Those disciplines taught me to overcome distractions and abide in an aware state of mind a lot, which has been helpful if attaining lucidity.
      Yes, I imagine that kind of training would help a lot!

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      I have not tried any supplements. I want to achieve a natural state of lucidity that can be incorporated into my life. These days I have begun to realize that I need to work toward being able to achieve dream lucidity spontaneously because I just don't have enough time in the night to deploy the techniques I have learned and still get the sleep that I need to be sharp in the morning and at work.
      I like the idea of just having LDs spontaneously in that way.

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      To that end I have really ramped up my daytime practice. If I can achieve a state of pure presence as much as possible during my work day, I will achieve that naturally in my dreams and that will allow me to cut through the fantasies and illusions of those dreams right away and achieve lucidity spontaneously. It's starting to work.
      Wow! Really great!!

    6. #81
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV 6 months registered
      lenscaper's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2019
      LD Count
      lots
      Gender
      Posts
      255
      Likes
      163
      DJ Entries
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      What happened in your first experience, if you don't mind my asking? (No problem at all if you do mind!)


      It was the night of February 5, this year, and I still remember it as if it was last night. I was floating down a small river in a red canoe when just in front of me, where the river narrowed between two outcroppings, a huge hippopotamus rose up slowly from the river. I still remember how the river water streamed off its dark grey back. The hippo spoke to me in a woman's voice but I do not recall the words. Instead of crashing into the hippo, I suddenly leaped from the canoe and flew to the top of the raised riverbank that had been on my left. I stood at the top of that riverbank and looked out over an expansive grassy field realizing that I was fully conscious of being in a dream.....before waking up, of course.

      The next morning I researched "awake in a dream" and the first article mentioned lucid dreaming.....I was off and running. That hippo dream became my first dream journal entry. Looking back now at those early entries I am reminded that I went after WBTB and WILD right away. My WILD attempts were sloppy but they yielded immediate results. On 2/6 I had an OBE after 2 hours of HI where my dream arms reached out of my body to grab one of the colored HI blobs and pull it back in before it drifted off. The next night I fell asleep during another long period of HI and did my first clumsy flight. On 2/9 I had a most profound LD after again falling asleep during HI where I entered the dream high in the air over a beautiful stream. I flew down to that stream and walked up through the water to a sandy spit of land where I sat and just watched the stream flow by. The next night I had the exact same dream. This time instead of sitting down on the shore, I waded out into the stream and laid down on the bottom where I looked up through the water at the blue sky and breathed in the water.

      Anyway, that's how it all started for me..........thanks for asking about it.
      Zthread likes this.
      The more I gaze....the more I crave to see

      lucid days....lucid nights

    7. #82
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points Veteran Second Class

      Join Date
      May 2014
      Posts
      132
      Likes
      59
      DJ Entries
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post


      It was the night of February 5, this year, and I still remember it as if it was last night. I was floating down a small river in a red canoe when just in front of me, where the river narrowed between two outcroppings, a huge hippopotamus rose up slowly from the river. I still remember how the river water streamed off its dark grey back. The hippo spoke to me in a woman's voice but I do not recall the words. Instead of crashing into the hippo, I suddenly leaped from the canoe and flew to the top of the raised riverbank that had been on my left. I stood at the top of that riverbank and looked out over an expansive grassy field realizing that I was fully conscious of being in a dream.....before waking up, of course.
      Wow! Beautiful dream! Wonder what the hippo said, though!

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      The next morning I researched "awake in a dream" and the first article mentioned lucid dreaming.....I was off and running. That hippo dream became my first dream journal entry. Looking back now at those early entries I am reminded that I went after WBTB and WILD right away. My WILD attempts were sloppy but they yielded immediate results.
      Amazing you had such fast results!

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      On 2/6 I had an OBE after 2 hours of HI where my dream arms reached out of my body to grab one of the colored HI blobs and pull it back in before it drifted off.
      Grabbing HI! That's something I've never heard of before. I love HI, but never have thought of grabbing it. Might be a way to "pull" oneself into a dream.

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      The next night I fell asleep during another long period of HI and did my first clumsy flight. On 2/9 I had a most profound LD after again falling asleep during HI where I entered the dream high in the air over a beautiful stream. I flew down to that stream and walked up through the water to a sandy spit of land where I sat and just watched the stream flow by. The next night I had the exact same dream. This time instead of sitting down on the shore, I waded out into the stream and laid down on the bottom where I looked up through the water at the blue sky and breathed in the water.
      Great ones, also, especially so soon after discovering LDing. Nice idea to breath underwater while looking up through the water....

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      Anyway, that's how it all started for me..........thanks for asking about it.
      I'd have to say you're a natural LDer.

    8. #83
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV 6 months registered
      lenscaper's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2019
      LD Count
      lots
      Gender
      Posts
      255
      Likes
      163
      DJ Entries
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      I'd have to say you're a natural LDer.
      Hmmmmmm.....maybe......

      The thing is, I don't do any of the things that most folks here do when I am lucid. I don't go looking for adventure........no long flights of fancy, no sex with movie stars or journeys to the center of the earth. Instead I just attend to what my subconscious runs by me. I attend to the dream as the dreamer, sometimes interacting, sometimes making subtle changes. When things go off the rails....and they occasionally do.....I take flight. When I find myself in a natural place with no DC's around me I immerse myself in that place.

      I don't quite have the technique down to go anywhere I desire, and I'm not sure that I want to.....although I have been trying to go back to that stream again.

      When i wake up from these LD's where I have been the lucid dreamer just observing the dream as it flows around me I always feel amazingly refreshed and alive. It is as if more of the weight of my past has been lifted and blown away forever.
      Zthread likes this.
      The more I gaze....the more I crave to see

      lucid days....lucid nights

    9. #84
      high mileage oneironaut Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV 1000 Hall Points Stickie King Populated Wall Referrer Silver 10000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class
      Sageous's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2011
      LD Count
      35+ Yrs' Worth
      Gender
      Location
      any quiet place
      Posts
      4,875
      Likes
      6835
      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      I'd have to say you're a natural LDer.
      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      Hmmmmmm.....maybe......

      No, Lenscaper, you are likely not a "natural" LD'er. And that, I think, is a good thing.

      If you were a natural, then this thread wouldn't exist, because you would not have needed to learn anything, at all, about the process of becoming lucid, to search as actively as you did, because the process would have already been embedded in your psyche, naturally. Lucidity by now would be old hat for you (even a nuisance, possibly), because, if a natural, you would have been experiencing it, often without choice, for decades. But, in your case, I believe something way better than natural ability happened with you:

      Your lifetime of activities that involve self-discipline and perhaps self-awareness certainly primed you to relatively easily achieve consistent LD'ing. Rather than having lucidity thrust upon you by your genes, you worked hard for your skills, and earned your current ability; revel in that fact, and don't belittle your work by calling yourself, or allowing yourself to be called, a natural.

      The reason I say all this, and in such a condescending manner, is because I am pretty sure that natural lucidity is incredibly rare, if it exists at all, and the internet-fueled tradition of people calling people (or themselves) "naturals" has created a term that is wrong, counterproductive, and perhaps a bit damaging to novices. For instance, a dreamer struggling for success might come to believe that she must need some innate ability to have any success; with a convenient excuse for her failure, she gives up. Or, worse, folks who proclaim themselves naturals might fall into a state of delusion that prevents them from ever attaining the skills that will help them experience true lucidity consistently.

      I could go on all day about this, but nobody wants that, so let me leave with some bullets:

      * This is anecdotal, of course, but I have met or spoken with thousands of LDers over the years, and many of them are remarkably adept at LDing. But out of all those people, I ran into only one who could convince me that he was a natural. And, perhaps not ironically, I met him because he came on this forum looking for help to cure his natural ability; being awake all night, every night, for decades, was literally driving him nuts.

      * The paradoxical nature of lucidity -- being awake while you are asleep -- runs anathema to pretty much every aspect of our natural sleep and dreaming processes, we are "naturally" programmed to not be lucid during dreams. So, perhaps aside from mental illness/persistent psychosis, our natural machinery is designed to combat lucidity, tamping it down whenever it may occur -- which may be why becoming consistently lucid is generally not easy, even with experienced LDers.

      *That machinery does fail now and then: I believe that all people have moments of lucidity in their dreams sometime in their lives (just as they do in waking-life), and your mindset might have caused that failure a bit more often than normal, but that is very different from naturally being able to induce lucidity on demand, or have it induced for you by accident, all night every night.

      * Lucidity has nothing to do with clarity, or vividness. It is about the presence of waking-life self-awareness in a dream; nothing more, nothing less. Some of my most vivid, clear dreams were NLD's, while some of my most lucid moments were in a blurry mess -- and vise-versa.

      tl;dr: Take credit for a life's work, self-awareness speaking, that led you to LD'ing in the first place, and take credit for your tireless effort this year to make LD'ing a part of your life -- those are far more impressive than being a so-called "natural," by any measure.

      Old guy rant over; now back to your regularly-scheduled program.





      .
      Last edited by Sageous; 07-29-2019 at 04:39 PM.
      DarkestDarkness likes this.

    10. #85
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV 6 months registered
      lenscaper's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2019
      LD Count
      lots
      Gender
      Posts
      255
      Likes
      163
      DJ Entries
      1
      Great post, Sageous!

      You're right.....I have worked hard. I am becoming....more than I was......through my LD training, so I will continue to work hard.

      VERY interesting perspective on the "curse" of natural dream lucidity.
      Sageous and Zthread like this.
      The more I gaze....the more I crave to see

      lucid days....lucid nights

    11. #86
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points Veteran Second Class

      Join Date
      May 2014
      Posts
      132
      Likes
      59
      DJ Entries
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      Hmmmmmm.....maybe......
      Or, maybe not!

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      The thing is, I don't do any of the things that most folks here do when I am lucid. I don't go looking for adventure........no long flights of fancy, no sex with movie stars or journeys to the center of the earth. Instead I just attend to what my subconscious runs by me. I attend to the dream as the dreamer, sometimes interacting, sometimes making subtle changes. When things go off the rails....and they occasionally do.....I take flight. When I find myself in a natural place with no DC's around me I immerse myself in that place.
      That's also my favorite way to do LDing. Because whatever my conscious mind comes up with, it's never as good what my subconscious creates. Here's a metaphor: When you get lucid, the dream becomes a dance between your conscious and subconscious minds. And your subconscious mind is a better dancer, so it's usually best to let it lead.

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      I don't quite have the technique down to go anywhere I desire, and I'm not sure that I want to.....although I have been trying to go back to that stream again.
      Right. Why bother with such techniques? It's not necessary. As they say, you can never go back to the same stream, anyway.

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      When i wake up from these LD's where I have been the lucid dreamer just observing the dream as it flows around me I always feel amazingly refreshed and alive. It is as if more of the weight of my past has been lifted and blown away forever.
      Doesn't get much better than that!
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-30-2019 at 03:31 AM.

    12. #87
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points Veteran Second Class

      Join Date
      May 2014
      Posts
      132
      Likes
      59
      DJ Entries
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      No, Lenscaper, you are likely not a "natural" LD'er. And that, I think, is a good thing.

      If you were a natural, then this thread wouldn't exist, because you would not have needed to learn anything, at all, about the process of becoming lucid, to search as actively as you did, because the process would have already been embedded in your psyche, naturally. Lucidity by now would be old hat for you (even a nuisance, possibly), because, if a natural, you would have been experiencing it, often without choice, for decades.
      I've often thought that if most of our dreams were LDs, people would work on techniques to induce non-LDs.

      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      But, in your case, I believe something way better than natural ability happened with you:

      Your lifetime of activities that involve self-discipline and perhaps self-awareness certainly primed you to relatively easily achieve consistent LD'ing. Rather than having lucidity thrust upon you by your genes, you worked hard for your skills, and earned your current ability; revel in that fact, and don't belittle your work by calling yourself, or allowing yourself to be called, a natural.
      Great point.

      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      The reason I say all this, and in such a condescending manner, is because I am pretty sure that natural lucidity is incredibly rare, if it exists at all, and the internet-fueled tradition of people calling people (or themselves) "naturals" has created a term that is wrong, counterproductive, and perhaps a bit damaging to novices. For instance, a dreamer struggling for success might come to believe that she must need some innate ability to have any success; with a convenient excuse for her failure, she gives up. Or, worse, folks who proclaim themselves naturals might fall into a state of delusion that prevents them from ever attaining the skills that will help them experience true lucidity consistently.
      Yes, probably is quite rare. And could be damaging in various ways.

      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      I could go on all day about this, but nobody wants that, so let me leave with some bullets:

      * This is anecdotal, of course, but I have met or spoken with thousands of LDers over the years, and many of them are remarkably adept at LDing. But out of all those people, I ran into only one who could convince me that he was a natural. And, perhaps not ironically, I met him because he came on this forum looking for help to cure his natural ability; being awake all night, every night, for decades, was literally driving him nuts.
      Wow! Also, during an LD, your sleep quality isn't as high, so wouldn't be surprised if someone who only--or mostly only--had LDs would be chronically sleep-deprived.

      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      * The paradoxical nature of lucidity -- being awake while you are asleep -- runs anathema to pretty much every aspect of our natural sleep and dreaming processes, we are "naturally" programmed to not be lucid during dreams. So, perhaps aside from mental illness/persistent psychosis, our natural machinery is designed to combat lucidity, tamping it down whenever it may occur -- which may be why becoming consistently lucid is generally not easy, even with experienced LDers.
      Right. Not easy, and likely not at all desirable or healthy.

      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      *That machinery does fail now and then: I believe that all people have moments of lucidity in their dreams sometime in their lives (just as they do in waking-life), and your mindset might have caused that failure a bit more often than normal, but that is very different from naturally being able to induce lucidity on demand, or have it induced for you by accident, all night every night.
      True.

      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      * Lucidity has nothing to do with clarity, or vividness. It is about the presence of waking-life self-awareness in a dream; nothing more, nothing less. Some of my most vivid, clear dreams were NLD's, while some of my most lucid moments were in a blurry mess -- and vise-versa.
      Also the most intriguing things often happen in NLDs, not LDs.

      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      tl;dr: Take credit for a life's work, self-awareness speaking, that led you to LD'ing in the first place, and take credit for your tireless effort this year to make LD'ing a part of your life -- those are far more impressive than being a so-called "natural," by any measure.

      Old guy rant over; now back to your regularly-scheduled program.

      Thought-provoking rant!
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-30-2019 at 03:48 AM.

    13. #88
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV 6 months registered
      lenscaper's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2019
      LD Count
      lots
      Gender
      Posts
      255
      Likes
      163
      DJ Entries
      1

      Patience and Persistence.......

      .....WILL lead to successful lucidity.

      Here at the start of my seventh month of training I have recently had my first true, intense and completely WILD event. Oddly enough, it came while I was taking a few days off from my training.....on the second night of a mini beach vacation. I had spent the early morning swimming out close to the wild dolphins at the New Jersey shore. The rest of the day was a mass of humanity on the crowded beach and the evening ended after a nice dinner and a few beers with a walk through even more humanity on the boardwalk.

      I fell into a peaceful sleep much later than usual setting no intention to try for lucidity.

      But I woke in the night to a feeling of intensely clear presence. I laid in that hotel bed and, surrounded by HI, I pondered the clear light of pure presence. As sleep slowly enveloped me, I found myself out the small fourth floor balcony that overlooked the Atlantic Ocean where I immediately dissolved the railing and soared out into the rising sun. I flew close over the water...like a pelican would....and the dolphins came and swam just under me.
      Zthread likes this.
      The more I gaze....the more I crave to see

      lucid days....lucid nights

    14. #89
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points Veteran Second Class

      Join Date
      May 2014
      Posts
      132
      Likes
      59
      DJ Entries
      1
      Wow!!

    15. #90
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV 6 months registered
      lenscaper's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2019
      LD Count
      lots
      Gender
      Posts
      255
      Likes
      163
      DJ Entries
      1

      Being "The Dreamer".......not "The Dream"

      As I progress I am coming to a deeper understanding of my personal lucidity in dreams. As an older oneironaut I tend to more often take the role of the lucid observer where I can subtly change the "dream plot". In these dreams I feel as though I am no longer part of the dream but, rather, I am the dreamer.

      Last night was like this. I had five dreams but only got up to write down one....and that one has stayed with me. Without getting into details, I was doing a job that I am not good at and I knew I was there not to do that job but to observe the dream. The dream plot went in a direction that felt to be the wrong one and I interacted with the dream characters specifically to change the plot. At the end I looked around at what I was supposed to be doing, smiled, dropped my tools and left the dream.

      There was never a moment of "AHA! This is a dream!" but I have come to not expect those moments often as I work toward that unbroken continuity between my "waking dream" existence and my sleeping dreams.

      I am wondering how more experienced LDers view all that.
      Sageous and Zthread like this.
      The more I gaze....the more I crave to see

      lucid days....lucid nights

    16. #91
      high mileage oneironaut Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV 1000 Hall Points Stickie King Populated Wall Referrer Silver 10000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class
      Sageous's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2011
      LD Count
      35+ Yrs' Worth
      Gender
      Location
      any quiet place
      Posts
      4,875
      Likes
      6835
      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      I am wondering how more experienced LDers view all that.
      Well, this experienced LDer views all that as genuine progress!

      In my opinion, coming to understand that "I am no longer part of the dream but, rather, I am the dreamer" is effectively coming to understand lucidity itself; nice work, and congrats!

      It might seem like semantics, but the next step is coming to a moment where you find yourself saying (or, better, knowing), "I am the dream."

      Good luck!
      Zthread likes this.

    17. #92
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV 6 months registered
      lenscaper's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2019
      LD Count
      lots
      Gender
      Posts
      255
      Likes
      163
      DJ Entries
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      the next step is coming to a moment where you find yourself saying (or, better, knowing), "I am the dream."
      Wow. Yeah........wrapping my head around that.

      Thanks for that.
      Zthread likes this.
      The more I gaze....the more I crave to see

      lucid days....lucid nights

    18. #93
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points Veteran Second Class

      Join Date
      May 2014
      Posts
      132
      Likes
      59
      DJ Entries
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      As I progress I am coming to a deeper understanding of my personal lucidity in dreams. As an older oneironaut I tend to more often take the role of the lucid observer where I can subtly change the "dream plot". In these dreams I feel as though I am no longer part of the dream but, rather, I am the dreamer.
      Great way to do it!

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      Last night was like this. I had five dreams but only got up to write down one....and that one has stayed with me. Without getting into details, I was doing a job that I am not good at and I knew I was there not to do that job but to observe the dream. The dream plot went in a direction that felt to be the wrong one and I interacted with the dream characters specifically to change the plot.
      How did that work? Did the dream character representing yourself do something to get the other DCs to change what they were doing?

      Also, wonder if your subconscious purposely made you do a job you knew you weren't good at. Seems symbolic, possibly. Or maybe it was a done as a way to help you realize you were dreaming.

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      At the end I looked around at what I was supposed to be doing, smiled, dropped my tools and left the dream.
      You left the dream by waking up? Or you went into a different dream scene?

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      There was never a moment of "AHA! This is a dream!" but I have come to not expect those moments often as I work toward that unbroken continuity between my "waking dream" existence and my sleeping dreams.
      Nice!

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      I am wondering how more experienced LDers view all that.
      It's an approach that appeals to me a lot.
      Last edited by Zthread; 08-08-2019 at 07:24 PM.

    19. #94
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV 6 months registered
      lenscaper's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2019
      LD Count
      lots
      Gender
      Posts
      255
      Likes
      163
      DJ Entries
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      How did that work? Did the dream character representing yourself do something to get the other DCs to change what they were doing?
      Well......I found myself on a carpentry crew in the framework of a house that was being built. It was very real. I was....me. I knew that I was not a very good carpenter and I wondered what I was doing there. I was....amused about it. One of the crew members went someplace else, maybe for lunch, and we all knew he was in some sort of trouble. The foreman wanted to rescue him. So I went to where he was and saw two older men sitting at a table with their backs to me....one had scraggly long grey hair...I knew he was the one responsible for the trouble. He felt.....nasty.

      I went back to the job site where the foreman was working the few other characters up for a rescue. I spoke to him...told him that would not be a good idea as these men were dangerous. I told him he needed to call the police as that was what they did. He resisted and I persisted.......until I finally said.....you're not listening to me. Another man entered the space then....an authority figure. He said....you're right, he's not, but I am...and we'll do the right thing. I never saw that man clearly.

      You left the dream by waking up? Or you went into a different dream scene?
      Actually.....I walked over to where I was working and lifted up a piece of plywood that I had fastened to the floor....it came right up. I chuckled at myself and let my tool belt fall to the floor.......and woke up.

      Also, wonder if your subconscious purposely made you do a job you knew you weren't good at. Seems symbolic, possibly. Or maybe it was a done as a way to help you realize you were dreaming.
      I do believe that the whole scene from the beginning was a subtle way for my subconscious to let me know I was in a dream. That kind of scenario happens frequently these days (nights). I have been working hard on daytime awareness of life as a dream......telling myself that I am creating the story during the day with my own cognitive reality. I think that is starting to translate into my dreams. One of my daytime mantras is "lucid days....lucid nights". So....the realization at night that I am dreaming comes as a very subtle transition.....it's as if I just know with no real trigger, just that subtle awareness.

      I know that I need to work harder on this to get to the point where I can make obvious and substantive changes in these dreams.......but at this point I don't really want to do that as these dreams are affecting me in a very good way....there are lessons in them that are subtle but very real. A dream like the one I just described stays with me with such clarity........I can still hear the voices and still see the back of that man's head with the scraggly grey hair. I can still feel my frustration rising when the foreman was not listening to my warning....and the relief when the other character stepped in to support me. And, most importantly.....I can still feel my self deprecating chuckle when I let that piece of plywood drop back down, dropped those tools and knew I could leave the dream.

      I'm still just letting it all sink in. I can feel myself changing from these dreams.

      Thanks for asking about it, Zthread. Discussions like this really help to fortify these experiences.

      Zthread likes this.
      The more I gaze....the more I crave to see

      lucid days....lucid nights

    20. #95
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points Veteran Second Class

      Join Date
      May 2014
      Posts
      132
      Likes
      59
      DJ Entries
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      Well......I found myself on a carpentry crew in the framework of a house that was being built. It was very real. I was....me. I knew that I was not a very good carpenter and I wondered what I was doing there. I was....amused about it. One of the crew members went someplace else, maybe for lunch, and we all knew he was in some sort of trouble. The foreman wanted to rescue him. So I went to where he was and saw two older men sitting at a table with their backs to me....one had scraggly long grey hair...I knew he was the one responsible for the trouble. He felt.....nasty.
      So from the start you knew you were dreaming? Totally unlike a normal LD, but in a good way. Letting the dream play out--while interacting with it to see what happens--is something most people don't do.

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      I went back to the job site where the foreman was working the few other characters up for a rescue. I spoke to him...told him that would not be a good idea as these men were dangerous. I told him he needed to call the police as that was what they did. He resisted and I persisted.......until I finally said.....you're not listening to me. Another man entered the space then....an authority figure. He said....you're right, he's not, but I am...and we'll do the right thing. I never saw that man clearly.
      In LDs of this type, do you usually feel like you just know what to do next? Or do you have to mull things over a bit to decide what to do next?

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      Actually.....I walked over to where I was working and lifted up a piece of plywood that I had fastened to the floor....it came right up. I chuckled at myself and let my tool belt fall to the floor.......and woke up.
      In other words, you were trying to wake yourself up? That's also something most people don't do in LDs!

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      I do believe that the whole scene from the beginning was a subtle way for my subconscious to let me know I was in a dream. That kind of scenario happens frequently these days (nights). I have been working hard on daytime awareness of life as a dream......telling myself that I am creating the story during the day with my own cognitive reality. I think that is starting to translate into my dreams. One of my daytime mantras is "lucid days....lucid nights". So....the realization at night that I am dreaming comes as a very subtle transition.....it's as if I just know with no real trigger, just that subtle awareness.
      Great way to do it!

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      I know that I need to work harder on this to get to the point where I can make obvious and substantive changes in these dreams...
      What kind(s) of change(s) in the above LD would you like to have the ability to make? Or just in general in any LD?

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      ...but at this point I don't really want to do that as these dreams are affecting me in a very good way....there are lessons in them that are subtle but very real.
      Yes, that's a possible drawback of changing things too much.

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      A dream like the one I just described stays with me with such clarity........I can still hear the voices and still see the back of that man's head with the scraggly grey hair. I can still feel my frustration rising when the foreman was not listening to my warning....and the relief when the other character stepped in to support me. And, most importantly.....I can still feel my self deprecating chuckle when I let that piece of plywood drop back down, dropped those tools and knew I could leave the dream.

      I'm still just letting it all sink in. I can feel myself changing from these dreams.
      Nice!

      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      Thanks for asking about it, Zthread. Discussions like this really help to fortify these experiences.

      Thanks for posting about what you're doing! It's giving me some ideas....

    21. #96
      high mileage oneironaut Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV 1000 Hall Points Stickie King Populated Wall Referrer Silver 10000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class
      Sageous's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2011
      LD Count
      35+ Yrs' Worth
      Gender
      Location
      any quiet place
      Posts
      4,875
      Likes
      6835
      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      So from the start you knew you were dreaming? Totally unlike a normal LD, but in a good way. Letting the dream play out--while interacting with it to see what happens--is something most people don't do.
      Someone want to tell me what a "normal" LD is, exactly? Not only that, but isn't interacting with dreams, for whatever reason, the default setting for dreamers everywhere?

      ... Just sayin'
      dolphin and Zthread like this.

    22. #97
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV 6 months registered
      lenscaper's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2019
      LD Count
      lots
      Gender
      Posts
      255
      Likes
      163
      DJ Entries
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      So from the start you knew you were dreaming?
      I knew I was in a dream when I realized that I had a hammer in my hand. I chuckled and looked around to see what was going on

      In LDs of this type, do you usually feel like you just know what to do next? Or do you have to mull things over a bit to decide what to do next?
      Good question...and helpful. In these types of dreams I seem to always just start to interact with DCs as I would in the waking world once lucidity blooms. I don't tend to mull things over....I usually just get right in the game.

      In other words, you were trying to wake yourself up?
      It's more as if I know I need to wake up. I have been getting up at 4:00 AM for years....I never use an alarm. Dreams like this one almost always come at the end of the night. My subconscious mind seems to know when I need to wake up from them. I call these my "4:00 Special". This time I looked over at the clock at 3:45 and set an intention for one more dream with lucidity. I rolled over and went back to sleep......woke up out of this just after 4:00 and went in to write it down immediately.

      What kind(s) of change(s) in the above LD would you like to have the ability to make? Or just in general in any LD?
      An even better question.....and even more helpful to me as I learn from all this! The dream yoga perspective would say that I am liberating karmic traces from dreams like this by just interacting with them in a non-dualistic manner. That perspective also might say that by taking a more aggressive role I could be creating more karmic traces that would then need to be worked out. I feel, though, that I would like to have more real control in general in my dreams. I want to go back to some places that I have been to meditate and reflect while in the dream. In this dream, in retrospect, it would have been nice to do that at the end so the ability to go to another venue after a dream sequence is something I wish to develop.

      Those skills will come in time. I will continue to train. One thing I have learned in life is that much can be accomplished through persistent practice.
      The more I gaze....the more I crave to see

      lucid days....lucid nights

    23. #98
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV 6 months registered
      lenscaper's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2019
      LD Count
      lots
      Gender
      Posts
      255
      Likes
      163
      DJ Entries
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Someone want to tell me what a "normal" LD is, exactly?
      Seriously. I'm starting to think that pretty much anything goes.......

      Not only that, but isn't interacting with dreams, for whatever reason, the default setting for dreamers everywhere?
      Pondering that. It's essentially the case, of course. I seem to spend a great deal of time in my LDs interacting very specifically with DCs, though. It seems as though my lucidity blossoms when I engage them. I wonder if that tendency is preventing me from seeing a bigger picture.
      The more I gaze....the more I crave to see

      lucid days....lucid nights

    24. #99
      high mileage oneironaut Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV 1000 Hall Points Stickie King Populated Wall Referrer Silver 10000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class
      Sageous's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2011
      LD Count
      35+ Yrs' Worth
      Gender
      Location
      any quiet place
      Posts
      4,875
      Likes
      6835
      Quote Originally Posted by lenscaper View Post
      I seem to spend a great deal of time in my LDs interacting very specifically with DCs, though. It seems as though my lucidity blossoms when I engage them. I wonder if that tendency is preventing me from seeing a bigger picture.
      That is a curious trap that many dreamers allow themselves to fall into, possibly for a lifetime. Yes, lucidity can seem to blossom when you engage DC's but it will only actually blossom when you do so from a non-dual perspective, knowing that those DC's are just facets of your own personality and imagination (or, I suppose, knowing that the DC's are the facets of someone else, but that is for a different conversation ). I think many dreamers may initially see DC's they encounter as real beings, as they normally do when not lucid, and when they focus on them the beings may become more real, just because lucidly focusing on an object tends to intensify its image. Now, if you are lucidly interacting from a non-dual perspective, you will understand the increase in intensity, and everything is fine, lucidity might be improved, and you might even learn a thing or two about yourself that maybe you've been ignoring in waking-life. However, if you are interacting from a perspective of duality (aka, our default perspective), then that intensity will impress you, and you will likely be drawn into the DC's presence rather that making it part of your own. That drawing in will result in a loss of lucidity as you continue to elevate the importance of the DC, and, ironically, you will continue to think you are lucid, and perhaps even more so, even though your presence is already slipping away. Eventually, the interaction engulfs you, true lucidity is gone, and your interaction becomes a dream about being lucid.

      This trap doesn't just apply to DC interaction, but also to other possibly intense actions lucid dreamers take, like flying, teleportation, summoning dream guides, creating new dream scenes or worlds, having sex, etc. Great care must be taken during these events to continue to know that all this cool stuff isn't happening to you or in front of you, but it is you. To do otherwise, to believe these things are as real as they seem, is to allow your presence to leave the scene. I personally think a lot of LD'ers fall into that trap, and many come to describe the trap itself as a lucid experience, thereby missing the real thing.

      tl;dr: Yes, allowing yourself to be absorbed by one aspect of your dream may seem like a good thing -- and it can be -- but in the end it may cause you to make that absorption become more important than your understanding that everything in the dream is you, and the bigger picture will likely be missed.
      Last edited by Sageous; 08-11-2019 at 05:41 PM.
      LighrkVader likes this.

    25. #100
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV 6 months registered
      lenscaper's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2019
      LD Count
      lots
      Gender
      Posts
      255
      Likes
      163
      DJ Entries
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Yes, lucidity can seem to blossom when you engage DC's but it will only actually blossom when you do so from a non-dual perspective
      This is such an important principle......thank you for bringing it into the conversation.

      I have been working incredibly hard toward a goal of living my life in a non-dual presence. Much of my daytime practice is centered on this principle of late and it is amazingly difficult to achieve with any degree of steadiness. But that practice has very definitely been a factor in my limited but steady progress toward lucidity in the dream. The ability to exist during the day in a lucid, non-dual presence....even for moments at a time.....very definitely leads to the ability to do so in a dream.

      That first moment of pure, non-dual perception is so fleeting..........

      Wrt dream characters.....as I mentioned somewhere in an above post, for a while I was using them as very potent dream signs. When I found myself drawn in to them I was using it to trigger lucidity.....with great success. That came from practice during the day with real people.

      I need to go back to that I think, for more work.
      Sageous and Zthread like this.
      The more I gaze....the more I crave to see

      lucid days....lucid nights

    Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 LastLast

    Similar Threads

    1. Replies: 0
      Last Post: 03-14-2013, 11:08 PM
    2. Real Lucidity vs Faux Lucidity?
      By TsyalMakto in forum General Lucid Discussion
      Replies: 5
      Last Post: 07-14-2011, 01:50 AM
    3. Lucidity [and lucidity induction] questions
      By metaphysical in forum Attaining Lucidity
      Replies: 3
      Last Post: 08-28-2010, 12:53 AM
    4. from spontaneous lucidity to induced lucidity
      By Asclepius in forum Introduction Zone
      Replies: 4
      Last Post: 12-16-2005, 12:52 AM
    5. Lucidity vs. Super High Lucidity
      By DreamWeaver in forum Attaining Lucidity
      Replies: 13
      Last Post: 08-16-2004, 04:37 PM

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •