Thread: Stopping real time in a lucid dream

Ok lets inject some actual science into this discussion instead of just hearsay. The brain is not run on will power or focus of intent, it’s run on chemicals that produce an energetic reaction. These chemicals can only react with each other so fast, no matter how hard we try, they have a limit. The neural impulse is measured in Hz and thus far has been recorded at many different levels. The highest, and somewhat sketchy number found to date is around 1,000Hz or about 1000 impulses per second. Now remember that that’s the extreme. Here’s the sucker for this debate. The brain on average functions at around 300-400 Hz or 300-400 impulses per second. Neurons are chemical machines, the chemicals inside them react dependent on the message they need to get somewhere else. So while it’s feasible that with plenty of bio feedback or maybe just practice in a dream you could get up to 1000 Hz or more for a prolonged period of time it’s unlikely. so you could double your thoughts, make 1 second = 2 seconds (maybe). But again the brain is a chemical machine and those chemicals can only react so fast with each other, not to mention that we’re not talking about getting one neuron to react faster but trillions, dependent on your brain structure quadrillions of them to react faster all at the same time. So while slowing things down to speed up your perception of things is probably definitely possible I highly doubt that it’s more then an illusion being produced by the flow of events. Time is probably still moving relatively close to real time for you.

There is an wave frequency limit on the brain, but that does not prove a limit on time perception. Until we know what creates time speed perception, we can't really answer the question scientifically.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

There is an wave frequency limit on the brain, but that does not prove a limit on time perception. Until we know what creates time speed perception, we can't really answer the question scientifically.

We know what creates time perception. There is a cluster of nerves in the brain that all fire at about a second at a time in a very similar timing to the second. It's not the most exact clock, but it keeps us on track.

I know, let's just sleep in a cryo chamber! If we turn it to absolute zero, then time will have stopped for us, and then we'd be free to dream - crap.

Originally Posted by Conkt

I know, let's just sleep in a cryo chamber! If we turn it to absolute zero, then time will have stopped for us, and then we'd be free to dream - crap.

Yeah, except for the part where you DIE.

You wouldn't die. Mass would stop moving, and so time would stop. You wouldn't be dead, and could potentially be relivable.

Originally Posted by Conkt

You wouldn't die. Mass would stop moving, and so time would stop. You wouldn't be dead, and could potentially be relivable.

And how do you plan to get to Absolute Zero, oh wise one? Assuming it's even possible to achieve (which it isn't), the chilling process would kill you, plain and simple. The ice crystals that would form in your blood would rupture your cell membranes and you would die anyway. Also, without a brain to dream with, you wouldn't be dreaming.

Originally Posted by nyrawake

We know what creates time perception. There is a cluster of nerves in the brain that all fire at about a second at a time in a very similar timing to the second. It's not the most exact clock, but it keeps us on track.

Really? Hmmm... What happens if those nerves start firing ten times per second? Will one real second seem like ten dream seconds? What is the limit on that?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Really? Hmmm... What happens if those nerves start firing ten times per second? Will one real second seem like ten dream seconds? What is the limit on that?

you don't want that to happen. that cluster is thought to control our circadian rhythms. you'd probably feel incredibly stressed for time and very weird. not to mention your body would go through processes during the morning that it shouldn't until night. and that's just in the short term. anyways would you really wanna go messing with a part of the brain we don't completely understand yet?

Remember, there is a speed limit for our brains. Thoughts are made of electricity, and as such can only travel at a certain speed which eludes me right now.

Originally Posted by Conkt

Remember, there is a speed limit for our brains. Thoughts are made of electricity, and as such can only travel at a certain speed which eludes me right now.

depending on the message being sent they travel from .1-100 m/s

Just smoke some cannabis and EVERYTHING gets slower ha ha.

That would be interesting to try in a dream... hmm

Originally Posted by Phantasos

Actually, from practical purpose what we strife for - is to experience a number of events which would take, say, hour in WL, during twenty minutes LD. From nyrawake's posts I did not quite figured is there limitation for this.

Dream time is roughly equivalent to real time. It is more or less a fixed value, and when you take 1/3 the time in a lucid to do something that would take an hour to do in reality, you're going to miss stuff. There will be scene skips or shortcuts taken, and you won't feel like you're conscious for a full hour.

Originally Posted by Beyond Reality

Just smoke some cannabis and EVERYTHING gets slower ha ha.

That would be interesting to try in a dream... hmm

Yeah, people do dream drugs all the time. I don't promote them or do them in reality, but shrooms are still on my lucid task list.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Dream time is roughly equivalent to real time. It is more or less a fixed value, and when you take 1/3 the time in a lucid to do something that would take an hour to do in reality, you're going to miss stuff. There will be scene skips or shortcuts taken, and you won't feel like you're conscious for a full hour.

Well, yes, I know this is a popular belief among secular dreamers but personally I am undecided (there are anecdotal evidences from advanced dreamers such as Walms, or Pedro from LD4ALL) that's why I was interested is there principal known limitation which could make it impossible for sure.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Yeah, people do dream drugs all the time. I don't promote them or do them in reality, but shrooms are still on my lucid task list.

I've eaten shrooms in a dream. I was in a park with my friends having a picnic, and my friends saw I had shrooms and they wanted me to get rid of them. I accidently dropped the bag they were in and I was searching all over the ground and eating all the shrooms I could find lol. The dream ended before it could get trippy

I've also eaten shrooms in real life and then gone to bed. That's kinda fun (you have really strange dreams). You have to take an extremely low dose though because with a high dose it's impossible to fall asleep.

Speaking of shrooms, you could just start eating large amounts of them fairly frequently until you've become familiar with the feeling that half an hour has lasted an eternity, then try to recreate that in a LD. That's somewhere in my goals.

I did this in a non-lucid a couple of nights ago.. I was looking at a watch in class, and I just slowed it down, until everything was moving so slow, it was almost at a stop.

I dont like all this science. Anything is possible if you belive it 100%
I have once had a dream... non lucid... and according to my perception the dream lasted well over a few weeks. I went to sleep in my dream and woke up several times. It was one of the most coherant dreams i ever had, and was almost like a second life.

Imagination sets you free, science restrains and creates fear. Expect the unexpected and belive in the 'impossible' and you can do anything you want.

Originally Posted by nyrawake

Ok lets inject some actual science into this discussion instead of just hearsay. The brain is not run on will power or focus of intent, it’s run on chemicals that produce an energetic reaction. These chemicals can only react with each other so fast, no matter how hard we try, they have a limit. The neural impulse is measured in Hz and thus far has been recorded at many different levels. The highest, and somewhat sketchy number found to date is around 1,000Hz or about 1000 impulses per second. Now remember that that’s the extreme. Here’s the sucker for this debate. The brain on average functions at around 300-400 Hz or 300-400 impulses per second. Neurons are chemical machines, the chemicals inside them react dependent on the message they need to get somewhere else. So while it’s feasible that with plenty of bio feedback or maybe just practice in a dream you could get up to 1000 Hz or more for a prolonged period of time it’s unlikely. so you could double your thoughts, make 1 second = 2 seconds (maybe). But again the brain is a chemical machine and those chemicals can only react so fast with each other, not to mention that we’re not talking about getting one neuron to react faster but trillions, dependent on your brain structure quadrillions of them to react faster all at the same time. So while slowing things down to speed up your perception of things is probably definitely possible I highly doubt that it’s more then an illusion being produced by the flow of events. Time is probably still moving relatively close to real time for you.

I'm fairly certain that about 40 hz is the frequency most commonly associated with intense mental activity, and about 30-12 is standard, alert thinking. The brain seems to struggle to attain much over 100 hz, it seems. 1,000 hz would be nuts...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_waves
You are right in that our thoughts cannot exceed a certain physical limitation. Even if we were to increase our thinking capacities 10 fold (~100% of your brain), which is impossible, I still couldn't imagine your brain perceiving time to pass at a rate of many years per minute. It isn't going to happen. Sorry.

You cannot stop real time. I guess you could do certain things to lengthen your LDs, but you cannot stop someone from waking you up.

Originally Posted by Mario92

I'm fairly certain that about 40 hz is the frequency most commonly associated with intense mental activity, and about 30-12 is standard, alert thinking. The brain seems to struggle to attain much over 100 hz, it seems. 1,000 hz would be nuts...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_waves
You are right in that our thoughts cannot exceed a certain physical limitation. Even if we were to increase our thinking capacities 10 fold (~100% of your brain), which is impossible, I still couldn't imagine your brain perceiving time to pass at a rate of many years per minute. It isn't going to happen. Sorry.

neural firing rates and brain wave activity read on an eeg are similar in some ways and very different in others. The neuron fires at about 1/1000th of a second. Could you imagine if the neuron only fired at 30-12 times per second. It'd take a hell of a long time for any message to get through. Because the neuron charges and then discharges or completes a cycle I used the Hz notation. I think that's where you got confused with what I was talking about. So to be clear, i wasn't talking about brain waves.

and your very right. Now computers, they have the power to do what's being suggested in this thread, just not yet. Computers think A SHIT LOAD faster then we do, we only have the advantage because we have a lot more processing power then they do. If they had near as many cpus as we have neurons we would be their pets.
not sure what you ment by increaseing our brain power ten fold, if I think you meant what I think you did let me correct a common myth. We use 10% of our brain at any given time, we use it 100% of our brain, just only specialized places at a given time. We don't walk with our teeth after all. If that's not what you meant they ok, least i taught someone something somewhere out there.

OH and i should also mention that another limit to this idea is that the message that is sent by the neuron doesn't travel very fast. They travel to and from the brain at about .1-100 m/s or so. 100 m/s sounds fast, but it's not, it's REALLY not.

Ah, now that makes more sense.

Originally Posted by nyrawake

Ok lets inject some actual science into this discussion instead of just hearsay. The brain is not run on will power or focus of intent, it’s run on chemicals that produce an energetic reaction. These chemicals can only react with each other so fast, no matter how hard we try, they have a limit. The neural impulse is measured in Hz and thus far has been recorded at many different levels. The highest, and somewhat sketchy number found to date is around 1,000Hz or about 1000 impulses per second. Now remember that that’s the extreme. Here’s the sucker for this debate. The brain on average functions at around 300-400 Hz or 300-400 impulses per second. Neurons are chemical machines, the chemicals inside them react dependent on the message they need to get somewhere else. So while it’s feasible that with plenty of bio feedback or maybe just practice in a dream you could get up to 1000 Hz or more for a prolonged period of time it’s unlikely. so you could double your thoughts, make 1 second = 2 seconds (maybe). But again the brain is a chemical machine and those chemicals can only react so fast with each other, not to mention that we’re not talking about getting one neuron to react faster but trillions, dependent on your brain structure quadrillions of them to react faster all at the same time. So while slowing things down to speed up your perception of things is probably definitely possible I highly doubt that it’s more then an illusion being produced by the flow of events. Time is probably still moving relatively close to real time for you.

I like this. It helps me make my point. While slowing actual time may not be possible, changing how fast your brain perceives the information is receives is definitely possible. That is to say, changing your view of time and how fast or slow they seem to you is possible. Even in the waking world, it's possible. Anyone who have ever been in a serious accident or combat situation can attest to the truth of this statement. The adrenaline boost in this situation can make everything seem to slow down for you, and something that may have actually lasted 4-5 seconds could seem like 15-20 to you. While not as extreme as the 100 aforementioned years, it does prove that you can get more bang for your buck, so to speak.

My concern however, is that your body is only so accustomed to a certain level of hormones running through your system. If you follow the theory that speeding up your perception of time in a dream is speeding up how fast your brain perceives your dream, then would this mean that you're inducing your body's endocrine system to provide more adrenaline to your brain? And, if so, wouldn't excessive use of this ability damage your body or brain, or their ability to heal during the night?

Actually, from practical purpose what we strife for - is to experience a number of events which would take, say, hour in WL, during twenty minutes LD. From nyrawake's posts I did not quite figured is there limitation for this.

I am inexperienced in this and am trying to reach LD someday, but...

What if you made place (room), in which you`d have HUGE hourglass. After sand would run out you would awake. Now you should:

A) try to change your perception and slow the hourglass before it runs out.

or

B) make yourself so much faster in a dream, that the hourglass seems much slower, but despite you being faster, have things you experience at the normal speed.

What do you think?