I love your answer - there are not enough like buttons in this whole thread to express just how much I love it!
Originally Posted by Sageous
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Although at first I would repeat that my phrasing was more style than deeper meaning, your question made me pause.
..
Wow - just heartfelt WOW!!
Sneaky thing, how constructs, which get deeply ingrained - esp. in childhood - even after having been thrown overboard - still manage to find their ways into our very style and language..
Originally Posted by Sageous
That may have been my point: this sort of evolution -- one driven by our thoughts, controlled by our deeds -- is extremely new, and runs fully anathema to the natural evolutionary process of successful random mutation. And, instead of following nature's pattern of random mutations taking thousands or millions of years to update or create a new species, we are creating this change in a matter of decades.
So yes, it is all one thing, but it is our thing this time, and not just another natural event.
This is true - I think, I should really de-simplify my concept there - we are indeed going about our evolution in a totally novel and - I also agree there after giving it some thought - unnatural way.
To see this - I actually would only have to have taken into account the temporal overdrive of change, we bring about without a putting to the test of time and environment in any adequate synchrony.
This is also why I sadly think, we could manage to destroy our planet before going about - well everything - in an enlightened way - meaning driven by true insight.
Thanks for making me aware of my short-sightedness there.
Originally Posted by Sageous
... not even me! Just as bringing self-awareness into waking-life is not harmful at all, bringing self-awareness into a dream will be a harmless event as well, and to do so would certainly be a growth event.
I think, I might open an anonymous poll - if possible - asking who on here feels that LD is taking over their lives in a drug-addiction like destructiveness..
Originally Posted by Sageous
I'm not so sure of that.
Though it may be a pleasant bit of nostalgia to imagine that human cultures were once more "in touch" with their inner selves before all this modern complication and materialism threw us culturally off our spiritual paths, I honestly think that we are currently at a pinnacle of conscious development (indeed, we are always at a pinnacle, as the development only improves from generation to generation). Yes, lucid dreaming has probably existed exactly as long as sentience has, but those lucid-dreaming cavemen may have been aware that they were dreaming, but they were not yet able to work with that awareness as we are now...humans simply hadn't collectively learned enough yet. Indeed, I would imagine that quite a bit of religion and mythology can be sourced in dreams, as very early shaman struggled to attach some meaning to their experiences (and yes, "cash in" on them).
In other words, our primitive ancestors certainly had lucid dreams, but they did not yet understand what was going on, and the explanations of what was going on tended to be much farther removed from the truth than our explanations today (even though we likely still don't really know yet -- but we will).
Oh yes - I am not sure as well - actually I fully agree with the point of not having an understanding of it even close to ours now.
Might be really this sort of nostalgia - while I actually try to cultivate a scepticism on this account -
My point was more, that dream-control could have been more developed - but on second thoughts - rather not.
My line of thinking being, that once you accept the dream to be coming from outside your minds - gods, demons, whoever living on that plane - would not exactly be conductive to this control.
I fully agree with you there now.
Originally Posted by Sageous
Given that most higher animals dream, there likely is a function to it. Maybe "function" is the wrong word. Perhaps instead dreams are representative -- a side-effect -- of some other function, like the process of storing long-term memory or even an opposing process of cleansing the brain of all the loose scraps of information it gathered during the previous day.
Sleep could also be the time that our unconscious mind does whatever global repair work it can do on its lesser, often miscreant conscious counterpart. Dreams then might represent our mind's metaphoric attempt to talk to itself... that might even explain people's innate need to attach meaning to their dreams (and that caveman's attachment of mythology or religion to his dreams, because he knew they had to mean something).
But I think when you put part one (debris from your brain's memory processing/day residue cleanup) beside part two (communications from your unconscious), you'll find part one the far larger bit, and from that it's easy to conclude that most dreams are likely just random, meaningless images until we attach meaning to them later (which is not a bad thing).
This might be true - yepp - it actually seems likely to me, that the majority is random flickerings - I see your point - okaay - we are getting somewhere in terms of reassessing our ideas and expressions - this is wonderful!
One thing, I heard in Young´s video yesterday I found interesting.
OBE´s also are common in near-death situations - and when he stated, animals would do it very often - he said, this could be nature´s very own anaesthetic - if the endorphins are not enough any more.
Makes sense to me to dissociate from perceptions - incl. pain - where it does not make sense to perceive them in the sense of alarming/warning..
Not sure there, though, if I follow him along completely.
Originally Posted by Sageous
Sadly not. I think most, if not all people, stumble on a form of lucidity during childhood. There is something about a child's incomplete view of waking life that makes it easier for her to realize she is dreaming. By incomplete I mean that she is still in the process of defining a world that may still mostly be very much like a dream -- everything beyond things like Mommy, Daddy, Home, and school don't really have solid definition yet, and a child still sees herself as the center of her universe; just like a dream. Keep in mind though that, just as a child lacks true self-awareness in waking-life, she is not truly self-aware in the dreams -- it's just that, consciously-speaking, her dream-life is so close to waking-life that being in a dream isn't a real problem. In other words, by the nature of their incomplete wiring kids are likely to sort of lucid dream.
This is true I think - didn´t consider it in this way.
But I have thought something like this before - or read it.
Seems in the 60s while hippieness etc. - some children were given LSD.
With the "amazing" - but explainable result - that they didn´t think a lot of it.
Reporting life wasn´t really that different from how it usually was. Need a source for this - might find one, even.
Originally Posted by Sageous
The special part, though, is remembering later in life that you did so, and feeling a need to "know" you are dreaming again -- this time with your more mature Self in the formula. Holding that thought is very special, given how few people do it.
For me - it only dawned on me later - but I did tell my mother back then, which is practical - I actually called her.
She was on an esoteric self-discovery trip, switching believe-systems on almost a monthly basis back then.
And such of course concluded back then, I was something special..
This she had to tell me now, though, I forgot.
But I know, she later said such often - she wanted to believe a lot - might have been good or not so good for me, who knows.
When I was a teen, I made it a hobby to crash her castles in an almost wicked way - she always built a new one - still does.
Sort of admirable.
Anyway - after this sort of rebellion - I came back to searching for the supernatural, for it´s sheer sensationality.
It fitted my general goings abouts back then - I read Castaneda and that was what brought me back.
I tend to rant - but - like next door - got to admit, if it hadn´t been for his books - I wouldn´t be here highly probably.
So - I got to be thankful for this - with a bit of teeth-grinding.
Originally Posted by Sageous
Yes, I did say that, and still do: all the machines and the drugs in the world will do nothing for you if you have not prepared yourself to lucid dream. If you are prepared, and your self-awareness, memory, and expectation/intentions are all set for LD'ing, then yes, the machines might be a shortcut to lucidity, but you were going to get there anyway.
And no, the machines won't even get you to look at your hands -- you are doing that yourself as well. All they can do is help remind you to look at your hands -- you still must hold them up and realize what you're looking at.
Yes and I fully agree - not on a basis like yours of course - reaching such a state of expertise is my long-term goal, though!
Oh - and lovely you are using the "she" - I should start my alternating as well, as I used to in the past!
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