Work Area for SP sticky thread.

[Sageous]

Wow. Well Sivason, the gods of DV have spoken: SP stays, period. I hope you continue to fight the good fight to end the festival of misinformation surrounding SP on these forums, thereby bringing new dreamers closer to actual lucidity, and more experienced dreamers back to their roots. But you may be doomed to revising your definition of SP right back to what it was when you started. That is a shame. Nina: I must join Sivason by repeating that I too have never, ever been unable to move after noticing that I was still in REM Atonia (I woke ahead of my body). How can that be, given that I've been doing this for well over 30 years and have had thousands of WILDs and DEILDs? Shouldn't I have gotten stuck at least once? Could this be because I developed my LD'ing skills on my own years before Internet forums and all this SP mythology existed, years before even LaBerge cared a wit about SP? Could it be that the voluminous Internet-based SP mythology has created an expectation of SP in Newbies and Veterans alike? Hmm... Yes, REM Atonia is a powerful thing, but so are my consciousness, my reticular system, and my fundamental awareness throughout the experience that this is my body and it is not going to do anything to hurt me or hold me if I need to do something else. I'm not sure why you are so adamant about holding to the fallacy that SP is a force to be reckoned with, rather than just another factor of sleep. Yes, you did properly define SP as the conscious recognition of REM Atonia, but your posted exceptions and laundry list of often difficult corrections seem to betray that you are fine with the more popular definitions. Yes, the novelty of consciously experiencing REM Atonia is complicated, and will vary from dreamer to dreamer, but I think that is the point in all this: That complication has led dreamers and would-be experts to misinterpret their passages through NREM and their moments noticing REM Atonia, and those misinterpretations have taken on a life of their own, to the point where a pillar of the DV forums has deemed it okay to call SP important simply because everyone thinks it is. Is that a good thing? Not for the many dreamers who come to this site looking for sincere guidance. The trouble with a poll is obvious to me: All it will do is continue to fuel and codify the misunderstandings about SP. Yes, you'll get a high percentage of dreamers who are sure that they experience SP regularly, and many will say you must "reach it" in order for a WILD to be successful. I think Sivason's whole point about tapping the experience of dreamers with long-term success sans SP was to show that the conventional wisdom in this regard is wrong, no matter how popular it might be. I have a feeling you already know that, Nina, yet you want to return this endeavor to a popularity contest rather than an attempt to break the withering falsehood that SP matters. Is that really what DV wants to do? If so, what does that say about DV's opinion of accomplished dreamers' experience and wisdom? Do you want us to stop posting what we believe, or, more importantly, stop sharing what we know? Sorry for my tone, Nina. Please keep in mind that I respect your experience and wisdom, and that everything I say was meant in the best of faith and in an effort to support Sivason's action -- an action that I apparently think is far more important to the successful education of new dreamers and to the long-term credibility of this site than do you. Could it be I misunderstood? I hope so! At any rate, if you're still with me, please forgive any unintended callousness.

[nina]

I have a feeling you already know that, Nina, yet you want to return this endeavor to a popularity contest rather than an attempt to break the withering falsehood that SP matters. Is that really what DV wants to do? If so, what does that say about DV's opinion of accomplished dreamers' experience and wisdom? Do you want us to stop posting what we believe, or, more importantly, stop sharing what we know? You are accusing me of wanting to turn this into a "popularity contest"...are you serious? I would never have bothered to make a post in this thread if I hadn't wanted to do one simple thing, help dispel misinformation and avoid further misunderstandings. Nothing pisses me off more than misinformation, except maybe arrogance. And I'm pretty offended by your completely unfounded and immature accusations, not to mention the sardonic tone reverberating from every sentence in your reply. I really don't have time for this headache...I was only trying to help. It's clear that you have absolutely zero need for my help or feedback since you already think you know everything there is to know about the subject and the only opinion that matters is your own. Did you ever bother to stop and think that maybe you are the exception, not the rule? Maybe most people DO experience paralysis...just not you. So telling people that they WON'T or shouldn't expect to feel paralysis during REM atonia seems misinformed. I'm not saying to keep calling anything SP that isn't SP. Did you even bother to read the part where I stated that I am in favor of using the correct term REM atonia? Or anything else I said for that matter. The fact that you would even take what I said and claim that I am trying to make this about me somehow just goes to show me how warped your view really is. I need to get back to studying for exams, so I'll respond to the rest of it later (gab your response was especially helpful thank you).

[Sivason]

You are accusing me of wanting to turn this into a "popularity contest"...are you serious? I would never have bothered to make a post in this thread if I hadn't wanted to do one simple thing, help dispel misinformation and avoid further misunderstandings. Nothing pisses me off more than misinformation, except maybe arrogance. And I'm pretty offended by your completely unfounded and immature accusations, not to mention the sardonic tone reverberating from every sentence in your reply. I really don't have time for this headache...I was only trying to help. It's clear that you have absolutely zero need for my help or feedback since you already think you know everything there is to know about the subject and the only opinion that matters is your own. Did you ever bother to stop and think that maybe you are the exception, not the rule? Maybe most people DO experience paralysis...just not you. So telling people that they WON'T or shouldn't expect to feel paralysis during REM atonia seems misinformed. I'm not saying to keep calling anything SP that isn't SP. Did you even bother to read the part where I stated that I am in favor of using the correct term REM atonia? Or anything else I said for that matter. The fact that you would even take what I said and claim that I am trying to make this about me somehow just goes to show me how warped your view really is. I need to get back to studying for exams, so I'll respond to the rest of it later (gab your response was especially helpful thank you). Sorry Nina, I do not think Sageous meant a popularity contest, refering to you as a DV personality. I think he meant the popularity of one idea over another. I think and hope it was a terrible misunderstanding. When he says the "DV Gods" there is some truth in that. Really, what members who have been active at all lately are more 'famous' or respected than you? Any project or thought you chose to oppose could not suceed. I am sorry Sageous pissed you off, but If you supported the thread (after needed changes) and gave a statement as 1 of the 6 experts, it would be amazing! You would be able to state that you use SP and give any info you wish. The only thing I would ask, is one sentence supporting the idea that "SP is not a needed part of WILD." If you feel it is a needed and expected part of WILD then I am confused and suprised, but that would be your right to an opinion. I am not at all sure that many WILDers experience a state where they can not move. Please excuse the extreme nature of this question, but I am trying to determine if we could possably be talking about the same thing. When you WILD, if a man entered your house and started to walk off with your child or sibling, and they called out for help,,, do you honestly mean "you could not move in response?" As in you would have to let the kidnapping happen, and later tell the FBI "I was stuck in SP." Also, did you experience cases of SP unrelated to lucid dreaming or WILD? One last comment for Nina, I would love your help on this. However, you say you feel SP is far more common than not (or may be), but I have yet to find a single person willing to make a statement that they experience true bodily paralysis, and I have 3 that say they do not. Auron, says he has, but does not imply it is a needed or normal part of his LDing. Looking for both sides, but at the moment it looks like 3 to 1-ish. Gab, I can also move my body during a vivid REM LD, I have developed the ability to do so with out waking up. It is just like you described with your cat. I do not know if that is rare or not. If I am in an LD and something external draws my attention, I can stay in the lD and slowly move my external body, while staying lucid. That is the method I used in the DJ entry about testing REM atonia.