Thread: Why WILD is uncertain method

Originally Posted by cmind

Whatever problems someone might have getting past the NREM barrier in WILD are miniscule in comparison to the problems inherent to DILD.

Then why are DILDs more common?

Originally Posted by ThreeCat

Then why are DILDs more common?

I doubt successful DILDs are more common. But why do more people try to DILD than WILD? A few reasons:

1) The way lucid dreaming is usually described in common parlance is actually a DILD. "Realize that you're dreaming while you're in a dream". This is precisely what a DILD is, and most people aren't even aware that there's this whole other set of techniques called WILD that operate on a fundamentally different principle.

2) For those who know about WILD, it sounds scarier. It's true, the transition between wake and sleep can be compared to a very intense drug experience. However, it's usually very short and it's not scary while you're actually doing it. Furthermore, people may associate WILD with sleep paralysis, which is a common myth but is incorrect.

3) People who are interested in lucid dreaming might find the whole "all day awareness" thing with DILD to be more aesthetically pleasing. It's more "spiritual" or some bullshit.

Now, why is WILD superior?

1) You're starting from a position of strength; of full awareness. DILD requires you to start from a position of weakness, when you're totally non-lucid, and then somehow become lucid. This is exactly akin to a schizophrenic person curing themselves of their delusions without any outside help. It's a big feat, but not attainable by most people.

2) WILD does not require any daytime activities. None of this "reality checking" silliness that DILD people like to make themselves do.

3) If you want to chain lucid dreams, you're going to have to WILD anyway. So might as well just WILD to begin with.

Whoa. I disagree on multiple levels. Most if the proficient dreamers on here practice daytime awareness techniques, WILDers or not. Also, how the hell is ADA spiritual? But I think in general the reality does not support your argument: most lucid dreamers have more DILDs than WILDs. If I am wrong about this, then I will say I am always willing to learn more.

You're obviously very opinionated about this, cmind, and write from the perspective of "having it all figured out," but keep in mind that just because you've come up with a mindset or explanation that makes sense to you, doesn't mean that it's "truth," or that it applies to everybody (or anybody). I think you have acquired a number of misconceptions along the way.

One could very well state that DILD is approaching LDing from a position of strength compared to WILD, considering you're already asleep and dreaming when you DILD, and that WILDs (traditional full WILDs, not DEILDs) are "weak" because you're missing the element of sleep and dreams entirely.

That would not be an entirely accurate statement, either, though. Because lucidity requires that multiple things all come together, namely, sleep and self-awareness. Whether one starts from dreaming sleep and leverages awareness into a DILD, or whether one starts from self-aware waking consciousness and attempts to add the element of sleep and dreaming, you always, unavoidably, must incorporate the other (along with all the secondary but important points like intention, expectation, etc.).

Now before you say "it's clearly superior to start from waking self-awareness and add sleep and dreaming" to reach a LD, remember that you can only ever speak about yourself. Some people seem to have a knack for (full) WILDs, and some have more success with DILDs.

I think it's interesting to note that even experienced LDers (anecdotally, I have not done a formal study) do in fact seem able to DILD at much higher frequency than they WILD.

Point by point:

1) The way lucid dreaming is usually described in common parlance is actually a DILD. "Realize that you're dreaming while you're in a dream". This is precisely what a DILD is, and most people aren't even aware that there's this whole other set of techniques called WILD that operate on a fundamentally different principle.

I knew about both from the beginning. I think most who seriously study LDing, who search out and discover quality resources know about both from the start. In fact, I would say that more casual LD attempters know more about WILD because they hear about this "miraculous" way to have "LDs on demand," and they think the term "WILD" is "cool." Just look at all the beginners (wasting their time IMO) on reddit trying to get FILD to work and get upset that it doesn't work within 1 or 2 days. (I don't think their wasting their time because "FILD sucks" or anything, but because they have not done enough research into LD practice and are missing the fundamentals).

2) For those who know about WILD, it sounds scarier. It's true, the transition between wake and sleep can be compared to a very intense drug experience. However, it's usually very short and it's not scary while you're actually doing it. Furthermore, people may associate WILD with sleep paralysis, which is a common myth but is incorrect.

I did serious background reading and never once held this point of view (that it's scary).

3) People who are interested in lucid dreaming might find the whole "all day awareness" thing with DILD to be more aesthetically pleasing. It's more "spiritual" or some bullshit.

This is a rather condescending and immature attitude. You don't "get it" personally so you think it's BS.

1) You're starting from a position of strength; of full awareness. DILD requires you to start from a position of weakness, when you're totally non-lucid, and then somehow become lucid. This is exactly akin to a schizophrenic person curing themselves of their delusions without any outside help. It's a big feat, but not attainable by most people.

I've already addressed the the "position of strength" fallacy. Your schizophrenia analogy also does not hold water. Lucidity results from the combination of conditions (sleep, sleep cycle phase, being well-rested) and personal qualities (self-awareness, memory, intention, expectation) and having good/great dream recall. Being conscious and aware in a dream regardless of initiation method in itself is an unnatural act, which is why for the majority of non-naturals (either DILD or WILD practitioners) it takes determined effort and time to develop these qualities and to learn to take advantage of timing. The fact is that the truly expert LD practitioner uses *all* tools at his/her disposal, and learns to adapt the method to the conditions of the moment to maximize LD possibility.

2) WILD does not require any daytime activities. None of this "reality checking" silliness that DILD people like to make themselves do.

That's not true. Successful WILDs benefit from strong self-awareness, intention and expectation, which you work on during the day. I'm quoting Sageous on this and given his background I think I'll side with him on this one. And saying "RCs" are "silly" and unnecessary makes you just sound sort of crazy on this forum.

3) If you want to chain lucid dreams, you're going to have to WILD anyway. So might as well just WILD to begin with.

DEILD is quite a different beast from full WILD. And don't forget the easiest way to DEiLD is to exit from a lucid dream, regardless of how you started the LD. So, you could just as well write "might as well learn to DILD in order to chain lucid dreams."

In summary, it's pretty inaccurate to claim one approach is the only way to the exclusion of all others. Each approach has their advantages and disadvantages, and the expert LD practitioner learns them all and understands when to apply them.

Just adding that most people, without daytime practices, are not going to be able to pull off a WILD due to lack of a tamed mind.

Some great responses to cmind while I was preparing mine...

Originally Posted by cmind

I doubt successful DILDs are more common.

cmind, I have read other posts by you in the past that I agree with (Correction: I was thinking of a different DV member) but I can't agree here, though I doubt either of us have any statistics to back up our viewpoint. Just browsing these forums and the DJ's seem to point to successful DILDs being more common. I have used both but definitely have more DILDs, with the DEILD variety of WILDs being my next most common, then straight WILDs last. When I was focused on DEILDs I could chain them together fairly frequently, but then comes the question of whether that was really multiple DEILDs or simply in-dream transitions.

But why do more people try to DILD than WILD? A few reasons:

1) The way lucid dreaming is usually described in common parlance is actually a DILD. "Realize that you're dreaming while you're in a dream". This is precisely what a DILD is, and most people aren't even aware that there's this whole other set of techniques called WILD that operate on a fundamentally different principle.

I think most anyone on DV that is motivated enough to read even a little through these forms has heard of WILDs. Those that are quickly passing through are hardly part of the significant sampling of lucid dreaming reports I have read about on here.

2) For those who know about WILD, it sounds scarier. It's true, the transition between wake and sleep can be compared to a very intense drug experience. However, it's usually very short and it's not scary while you're actually doing it. Furthermore, people may associate WILD with sleep paralysis, which is a common myth but is incorrect.

I agree...this is an unfortunate misconception for some, though you may get more scary experiences if that is what you are watching out for or worried about.

3) People who are interested in lucid dreaming might find the whole "all day awareness" thing with DILD to be more aesthetically pleasing. It's more "spiritual" or some bullshit.

This "bullsh*t" label is what convinced me to reply. Though I do not practice "all day awareness" I do feel that there is much value to being more aware throughout the day. Do you think the average person finds it more pleasing to be on autopilot? Through daytime practices and lucid dream experiences, I find more enjoyment in the little things that I used to look past. Not necessarily "spiritual" but none-the-less valuable to me.

Guys, stay to the topic please! The topic is : Wild is difficult induction technique for wild beginners due to REM barriers (NREM phases - mostly light sleep) after WBTB.

Sageous and Sivason said they are able to stay ''lucid'' during these REM barriers. I'm not able to... Few times, I manage to stay lucid during light sleep after ending of lucid dream. Like you Sageous said: just wait in the dark for another dream. I experienced that, but only after a lucid dream. I was in the dark, no images and no feeling of your real body at all, just pure lucidity of consciousness. Few minutes later a new dream emerged and I deilded.

This lucid state during light sleep is really great stuff and I would like to learn that, so my question is: How can I stay lucid during REM barriers? Is there any solid recipe? If my goal is just to learn stay lucid during light sleep phases after wbtb or just at the beginning of the night? With no regards to lucid dreaming in the rem stage... Are you capable of this someone? This ability would prove my progress immensely.

You might have missed my comment that wbtb, especially a longer one might lead to greater REM rebound, that means that the NREM phase will be shorter.

Other than that, I am not sure what your way of wilding is, but this is how it goes for me. Wbtb, mantras, then decide it's time to sleep. I begin to focus on relaxing. My anchor is mostly my body, I start relaxing my body and generally feel my body, not too harsh of a concentration. I don't think about wilding (but know I want have an ld), just focus on how great and nice it feels to be falling asleep or just to be relaxing. This is especially effective for me, since it deals with all sorts of negative stuff, like "nothing is happening, I can't fall asleep, etc.". After a while there are usually two possibilities - one: if my rem is near and with strong rebound, then I am literally overcome with a super bright strong dream scene that emerges in front of me. Since I have been relaxing, I may or may not feel my body, it may be that what I feel now is my dream body immediately appearing in the dream. That's the perfect case, which I wish could happen more often and to all, but it it doesn't always.

Case two - I am in the darkness and just keep relaxing, i.e. focused on my bodily anchor, so it doesn't matter if the dream is here or not, I'm just waiting for it. After a bit, the scene may begin to build around me so I find myself in the dream. (Stating there are only two cases is a bit of simplification, as all the transitions are kind of unique, sometimes I have used just looking at the darkness as an anchor, other times my breath or even pulse, also see below)

I have to say, my method is much more passive most of the time, but there are variations, where you can try to call the dream. You can try looking in the darkess and start to distinguish that the dots or lines are actually part of objects and then focus on those. You can try visualizing a place or focusing on a feeling of movement, you running, swimming, etc. That way, you can also keep your mind active so you won't lose lucidity and black out.

Thanks Nyx, that was super helpful. I was actually thinking of trying to WILD more, and you put clearly into words a technique that sounds like it might work. I'm not a mantra person

Originally Posted by Nfri

Sageous and Sivason said they are able to stay ''lucid'' during these REM barriers. I'm not able to... Few times, I manage to stay lucid during light sleep after ending of lucid dream. Like you Sageous said: just wait in the dark for another dream. I experienced that, but only after a lucid dream. I was in the dark, no images and no feeling of your real body at all, just pure lucidity of consciousness. Few minutes later a new dream emerged and I deilded.

Wait a second... doesn't that mean that you actually succeeded in "waiting for another dream?" Yes, you were coming from another LD, and not from the beginning of a WILD, but the experience is still about the same.

This lucid state during light sleep is really great stuff and I would like to learn that, so my question is: How can I stay lucid during REM barriers? Is there any solid recipe? With no regards to lucid dreaming in the rem stage... Are you capable of this someone? This ability would prove my progress immensely.

Maintaining self-awareness is just hard enough to be universally unpopular, so finding specific techniques or methods, much less that solid recipe that works for you, might be a bit of a chore. But there are a handful of people who can do it, so hopefully you'll get some responses that are a bit less vague than mine.

In the meantime, since this practice is essentially the same as sleep yoga, you might start by researching that, and its little brother, dream yoga. What I've said about it mostly appears in my Exploring Delta Sleep thread, though I'm pretty sure it runs a little light on specific technique.

If my goal is just to learn stay lucid during light sleep phases after wbtb or just at the beginning of the night?

I would steer clear of trying to stay lucid at the beginning of the night for a while. Or, rather, steer clear of expecting to actually maintain self-awareness through those first very long NREM periods for a while -- it can certainly be good practice to try to do so. But yes, those very brief periods of NREM that you'll encounter attempting WILDs after several hours of sleep and a WBTB should be easily navigated after you gain some experience.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Wait a second... doesn't that mean that you actually succeeded in "waiting for another dream?" Yes, you were coming from another LD, and not from the beginning of a WILD, but the experience is still about the same.

Yeah, it does. I'm lucky that I've been there few times already, so I know what is my goal and that it's real and obtainable. The thing is that I don't know how to get there at the begining of the night or after wbtb. I think the experience is still about the same as well... So I'm looking for someone who is able to be lucid during these rem barriers... And hopefully learn it from them.

it can certainly be good practice to try to do so. But yes, those very brief periods of NREM that you'll encounter attempting WILDs after several hours of sleep and a WBTB should be easily navigated after you gain some experience.

Well, personally, I'm in the same boat as Nfri. I do not recall ever entering a dream from 100% awake WBTB-time with full consciousness the entire time and with no discontinuities. DEILDs yes, full-from-WBTB WILDs with absolutely no discontinuities, no. I assume it's just a matter of patience and practice and trying a lot. Or maybe I'm making too much out of the discontinuities and everybody experiences them in "full WILD?" I'm assuming my "awake awareness" is just too strong and I haven't found the balance yet.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

especially a longer one might lead to greater REM rebound, that means that the NREM phase will be shorter.

I did numerous attempts with lenght of wbtb and I agree as you say Nyx, it is possible that longer wbtb = shorter REM barrier. 2 hours wbtb is effective for me and yeah it may be thanks to REM rebound... I need to try and measure this.

I am not sure what your way of wilding is

My wilds are usually the same. While I'm falling asleep, third eye's imagination spontaneously appears and tries to steal my awareness. I try to stay aware - try to hold thought on my mind: this is just my imagination. If the REM is close with no barriers, it just hit and the imagination become dream and I'm in it with my thought that it's not real = I'm dreaming.

My anchor is mostly my body

I don't understand, please explain this...

if my rem is near and with strong rebound, then I am literally overcome with a super bright strong dream scene that emerges in front of me.

This is what I've tried to explain in OP picture.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I assume it's just a matter of patience and practice and trying a lot. Or maybe I'm making too much out of the discontinuities and everybody experiences them in "full WILD?" I'm assuming my "awake awareness" is just too strong and I haven't found the balance yet.

Or it's a matter of REM barriers!

Well, personally, I'm in the same boat as Nfri. I do not recall ever entering a dream from 100% awake WBTB-time with full consciousness the entire time and with no discontinuities. DEILDs yes, full-from-WBTB WILDs with absolutely no discontinuities, no. I assume it's just a matter of patience and practice and trying a lot. Or maybe I'm making too much out of the discontinuities and everybody experiences them in "full WILD?" I'm assuming my "awake awareness" is just too strong and I haven't found the balance yet.

^^ I would bet, FryingMan, that a fairly high proportion of reported WILD's are actually DILD's, because dreamers dozed off somewhere during the process. Just read the accounts, and note how often the process moves from actively reporting sensations to "suddenly I was in the dream," which is a telltale sign of loss of awareness. You're just an exception, FryingMan, because you are honest with yourself about it, and notice the WILD transition never really happened. But who cares if it wasn't a WILD? If the WILD failed but a DILD occurred, then the prep you did for the WILD was enough to lead you to lucidity, and past that REM barrier one way or another. Does it really matter how you get to the dream, in the end? I never thought so.

Perhaps Nfri's REM barrier is responsible for more than just difficult WILD's, but for the evolution of a modified version of DILD where you go through all the prep and process for a WILD, but fall asleep anyway, yet still successfully become lucid. A semi-WILD, maybe, or para-DILD?

Hmm. This could be a quiet new technique that has emerged unwittingly among WILDer's, one that might prove useful: Dreamers attempting WILD's could actually build the possibility of accidental sleep into their WILD plan, but with that sleep seen as contingency, and not failure. In other words, keeping their minds ready for a dream whether they fall asleep or not. That way they are ready for the DILD, probably resulting in more LD's, less wake-ups, and a whole lot fewer FA's. And perfecting the technique might amount to little more than simply being honest with yourself, as you were, FryingMan.

^^ I agree, Sageous, it really doesn't matter what the label is. But I *am* curious to experience the whole thing consciously! And, the TTWBGSODDILD (Tried To WILD But Got Start-Of-Dream DILD) is not always guaranteed. Sometimes the result is insomnia, sometimes non-lucid dreaming, and sometimes that in-between state (maybe this is the Nfri REM barrier?) where I feel like I've fallen asleep, felt the sensations, I feel "different" in my brain, sort of a "lucid" feeling, yet there is no dream there, which (always for me) ends in full wakefulness and lost sleep and no LD (at that time).

Hmm. This could be a quiet new technique that has emerged unwittingly among WILDer's, one that might prove useful: Dreamers attempting WILD's could actually build the possibility of accidental sleep into their WILD plan, but with that sleep seen as contingency, and not failure. In other words, keeping their minds ready for a dream whether they fall asleep or not. That way they are ready for the DILD, probably resulting in more LD's, less wake-ups, and a whole lot fewer FA's. And perfecting the technique might amount to little more than simply being honest with yourself, as you were, FryingMan.

Well this has happened some number of times. Tried to WILD, and ended up with a start-of-dream DILD where my awareness kicks in just as the dream image is forming or just thereafter. We could call it the FMWASODD (FryingMan's WILD attempt Start-of-dream-DILD) or something

Originally Posted by Sageous

Perhaps Nfri's REM barrier is responsible for more than just difficult WILD's, but for the evolution of a modified version of DILD where you go through all the prep and process for a WILD, but fall asleep anyway, yet still successfully become lucid. A semi-WILD, maybe, or para-DILD?

I know what you are talking about, I had about ten of these... I call them quick DILD. The gap might be short, but it's obvious.

You know I think that REM barriers influence both wild and dild. That's why is so hard to have DILD after first or early thick REM barriers.

As you said Sageous, it doesn't matter if it was a wild or a dild but wheter you achieved lucidity. And I think REM barriers matters a lot in achieving lucidity.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

(maybe this is the Nfri REM barrier?)

No, by REM barrier I mean fall to unconscious sleep with no memories from nor dreams in this phase.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

My anchor is mostly my body

Originally Posted by Nfri

I don't understand, please explain this...

Well, I just focus on my body. There is no strict way to do it, sometimes I like to focus on the sensation of my body touching the bed or just the way my entire body and its contours feel. I actually just wrote a mini paragraph describing how the whole process feels, but realized that it is unnecessary and irrelavant. While a change in sensations may be a clue as to where exactly one is (bed vs asleep), my approach is not to track the progress on the way, but just to keep focusing until the dream forms around me, flashes into my face or whatever it is that should happen during that particular attempt.

Again, you can use pretty much anything as your anchor - your entire body, a specific part (you can try some of the chakra points as points for focus, especially the third eye point, the area below the navel, or the navel itself (not a chakra but still a good point of focus) or the one on top of your head), also the back of your head, you can focus on your breath or on your heartbeat, etc.

My wilds are usually the same. While I'm falling asleep, third eye's imagination spontaneously appears and tries to steal my awareness. I try to stay aware - try to hold thought on my mind: this is just my imagination. If the REM is close with no barriers, it just hit and the imagination become dream and I'm in it with my thought that it's not real = I'm dreaming.

With imagination, I take it to mean more like visual scenes and perhaps you hear part of that dream's story? That's not so bad then. You can try repeating a mantra while watching the scene to keep some awareness while the scene perhaps starts to take over since you are already falling asleep, if your problem is that it steals your awareness. Or you could try to focus on a particular place in the scene, zoom in there or imagine yourself acting in it. That way you assume a certain degree of control over the dream and retain your awareness.

At any rate, keep experimenting and sooner or later things will click. Don't forget to keep us posted.

Hi guys, I've been trying to WILD every night for about a month unsuccessfully with some close calls. With respect to timing, when I began dream journaling, I discovered that I was logging some of my most vivid dreams five minutes after my first sleep. This lead me to question whether I had a sleep disorder like narcolepsy and I thought it might explain the intense hypnogogic imagery I experienced at bedtime my entire life, something I worried was some mental disorder until I learned about lucid dreaming.

I'm reading here now that hypnogogia can occur during light sleep onset regardless of REM proximity. But the fact that I'm dreaming so early makes me suspect actual REM is happening. Am I wasting WILD attempts at this time, or have you heard of REM happening this way?

Originally Posted by 2Jupes

I discovered that I was logging some of my most vivid dreams five minutes after my first sleep.

I'm reading here now that hypnogogia can occur during light sleep onset regardless of REM proximity. But the fact that I'm dreaming so early makes me suspect actual REM is happening. Am I wasting WILD attempts at this time, or have you heard of REM happening this way?

I experience this every time I'm falling asleep. It seems like actual dreams without vividness. In this thread http://www.dreamviews.com/wake-initi...in-method.html I maybe wrongly named it Hypnagogic Imagery HI. Sageous, this explain why you said that it's irrelevant to wait for HI. I didn't mean HI but this state that you elegantly called dreamlets. I think this is REM like state which purpose is to steal your consciousness and make you fall asleep. Last night I tried to focus and be lucid in these dreamlets but it let to wake me up few minutes later. It's exciting that I'm able to measure these dreamlets by EEG ZEO device. This is picture shows entering these dreamlets and exiting them. It's from experimentation last night on the beginning of sleep.

zeo dreamlets.png

Why are dreamlets ilustrated as REM? I think because they are very similar to REM in the brain activity.

That monitoring tool is amazing. I'm saving for the next one that gets good reviews now that yours is out of business. Those dreamlets you recorded are really interesting. I woke up at 3am today, was sure I had been in deep sleep, and decided to test that delay theory, waiting 45 minutes for REM to potentially come around while I read a bit, then worked on a mantra.

I fell asleep trying to WILD with no sensations or HI, but I did manage to incubate lucid intent and had my first brief DILD after a frustrating two-week dry spell. I had discovered my wife dead after a car accident and performed a successful reality check based upon my strong emotional response but woke from the intensity of the situation almost immediately. It at least confirmed for me that lucid intent incubation is more effective if I do it later in the night, without deep sleep intervening. Need a device like yours to figure out my patterns properly though because I may be wrong about actually experiencing early REM.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ I would bet, FryingMan, that a fairly high proportion of reported WILD's are actually DILD's, because dreamers dozed off somewhere during the process. Just read the accounts, and note how often the process moves from actively reporting sensations to "suddenly I was in the dream," which is a telltale sign of loss of awareness. You're just an exception, FryingMan, because you are honest with yourself about it, and notice the WILD transition never really happened. But who cares if it wasn't a WILD? If the WILD failed but a DILD occurred, then the prep you did for the WILD was enough to lead you to lucidity, and past that REM barrier one way or another. Does it really matter how you get to the dream, in the end? I never thought so.

Perhaps Nfri's REM barrier is responsible for more than just difficult WILD's, but for the evolution of a modified version of DILD where you go through all the prep and process for a WILD, but fall asleep anyway, yet still successfully become lucid. A semi-WILD, maybe, or para-DILD?

Hmm. This could be a quiet new technique that has emerged unwittingly among WILDer's, one that might prove useful: Dreamers attempting WILD's could actually build the possibility of accidental sleep into their WILD plan, but with that sleep seen as contingency, and not failure. In other words, keeping their minds ready for a dream whether they fall asleep or not. That way they are ready for the DILD, probably resulting in more LD's, less wake-ups, and a whole lot fewer FA's. And perfecting the technique might amount to little more than simply being honest with yourself, as you were, FryingMan.

That explains a lot of stuff
I used to have WILDs in which my memory had gap between dream world and reality (Suddenly in Dream?)
And there were aswell those full-wilds in which i haven't had any gaps in consciousness.
I've managed it few times only tho:
- Through BillyBob's Pain Anchor (Focused on pain and waited?)
- Silence? (I kept my mind empty ouf of thoughts till dream scene formed i guess?)
- Sleep Deprievation (Mostly?)

So i guess maybe i'il give BillyBob's Guide once more a try

Originally Posted by NyxCC

With imagination, I take it to mean more like visual scenes and perhaps you hear part of that dream's story? That's not so bad then. You can try repeating a mantra while watching the scene to keep some awareness while the scene perhaps starts to take over since you are already falling asleep, if your problem is that it steals your awareness. Or you could try to focus on a particular place in the scene, zoom in there or imagine yourself acting in it. That way you assume a certain degree of control over the dream and retain your awareness.

My dreamlets on the beginning of sleep are like normal dreams, where I'm often just observer and the scenario is changing faster than normal dreams. It's spontaneous imagionation. Great advice that I should implement certain degree of control and thus retain awareness. Thanks!
Only problem when I'm putting control there, is that it often leads to wakefulness.

Originally Posted by Nfri

My dreamlets on the beginning of sleep are like normal dreams, where I'm often just observer and the scenario is changing faster than normal dreams. It's spontaneous imagionation. Great advice that I should implement certain degree of control and thus retain awareness. Thanks!
Only problem when I'm putting control there, is that it often leads to wakefulness.

I posted this same question to Sageous a while back; here is his response:

Next, if you find yourself in a similar position when the dreamlets (my guess about those mental images) come, then change that position. In other words, if you begin to sit on the curb, stand back up, or cross the street (it will appear for you if it's not there yet -- or something will), just do something that runs a little counter to the usual pattern -- and yeah, screaming "dream!" is not the best idea, I think... try to be more subtle. WILD is all about maintaining self-awareness, or in this case self-control, so it is best to assert that self-awareness at all times, especially when the dreamlets are threatening it with such distractions.

There's a lot going on this thread which I want to chip in on, but firstly my thoughts on the OP:

1. Let's break down our sleep stages: NREM 1 (you call this HI), 2 (you call this light sleep), and 3 (you call this deep sleep) and, of course, REM. Let's just assume we can disregard 3 (or deep/"delta" sleep) if we're starting after 4.5 hrs or so. So that leaves us with 1, 2 and REM

2. You pass through stage 1 everytime you fall asleep. While I'm not accusing you of this, Nfri, there's this common misunderstanding that you can somehow fall asleep straight into REM by timing your WBTB, this is false

3. Building on Mzzkc's thread (http://www.dreamviews.com/wake-initi...ogression.html) I believe that what you label HI would be more accurately called stage 1 NREM

4. HI is actually associated more with the passage into stage 2 NREM than it is entry into REM

5. Look at a hypnogram, I'm pretty sure that any return to sleep involves some time in stage 2 NREM

Here's the kicker, the things that new WILDers most associate with WILD, (ie. what they experience in unsuccessful attempts, what they are told about in misinformed threads) occur in stage 2 NREM. While I think NREM 2 is the place where new WILDers get stuck, I think it's kinda a necessity to navigate it, but by no means an impossible feat. In fact it could be said that navigating NREM 2 is WILD itself as a great part of the population remain basically aware during NREM 1 (ie. you're in class and you start to slump in your chair, then suddenly jolt awake, even though you were physiologically entering sleep you could still pretty much hear what the teacher was saying, track your dream-like thoughts, etc.) During WILD you stay aware beyond this typical threshold of consciousness and pass through NREM in order to transition into a dream.

This is just my take based on my reading and as yet limited experience of WILD.

I definitely agree with you thesis that an understanding of the mechanics of sleep (even if this understanding is "intuitive" rather than "textbook) is by far more important than technique.