Thread: WILD According to Sageous Q & A

Thanks for the response i undrstand i asked the question with lack of detail but i researched more on EM cycles and found what i needed.

I have a situation that leads to a question.
So funny as it is after almost a year of trying wild, i achieved my first one yesterday morning. Now, all i remember from it is a 4 second period of me flying. Then i woke up did a wbtb went back to sleep and had another dream only this one i consciouly fell asleep for but i was able to attain lucidity in the middle of a dream. I was looking at a woman, an ugly woman, thats where i achieved lucidity and as cliche as it was i made an attempt to transform the ugly woman DC into a hot sexy babe. So she started morphing and sh turned into Monica from the sitcom friends (No clue why this would happen i mean shes okay ya know). Anyways the dream cut out after she transformed. So i had two ld's in one night but only remembered 4 second clips.

So here's my question, living in Colorado, im a daily pot smoker and i need to know if as long as i smoke, achieving full LDs will not happen.

But you hear about newbies having trouble with dream controlling and i was able to fly and transfom a DC no problem! Also the dream i had of me flying was very vivid and like an action movie (the 4 seconds i was able to remember of it)...

Hope this question is more detailed thanks for answering

Kingyoshi maintained that he was able to achieve regular recall and LDs while being a stoner. But generally speaking weed inhibits REM sleep. Your mileage may vary.

It certainly messes up recall, which may be why you barely remember those LDs.

man.by seeing how many sessions and their length I scared!
I read most of them and hell I'm confused...Seriously?!why the hell is having lucid dreams are just so hard?man I'm about to give up.
I'm not so much interested in DILD.I really don't like the whole RC thing.I don't believe in it.I know it works.but I don't like and don't believe it they way I should do for it to work.From all the methods I just like the WILD.but I need to develop self-awareness and that kind of things.which I don't have any idea how to!(yes I read your article,also and object oriented one,etc...)
I try to think the the pressure I have on the ground,the...whatever I think about just seems to stupid.
It really seems stupid and doesn't give me any feeling...
so...maybe I should just forget it.I'm too disappointed.

BTW I know this may be irrelevant but I need to ask it.
1-is self-hypnosis helpful?are there some reliable guide or books about it?
2-everywhere I read meditation is very helpful and even crucial for LDing.but as a beginner I don't have any idea how should I do it.
I googled "meditation for beginners" but didn't get what exactly looking for.however I found something which can help but still....
3-also if you know any good book or guide again for programming subconscious and mastering it tell me please.
sorry.I know I'm more asking about resources than asking something relevant to the subject.but I'm just new to all this stuff(subconscious mind,LD,delf hypnosis etc)and don't know where to start mastering these things.I believe mastering these is the way to master the whole life...
Thanks and sorry!

Originally Posted by Ramin2097

man.by seeing how many sessions and their length I scared!
I read most of them and hell I'm confused...Seriously?!why the hell is having lucid dreams are just so hard?man I'm about to give up.
I'm not so much interested in DILD.I really don't like the whole RC thing.I don't believe in it.I know it works.but I don't like and don't believe it they way I should do for it to work.From all the methods I just like the WILD.but I need to develop self-awareness and that kind of things.which I don't have any idea how to!(yes I read your article,also and object oriented one,etc...)
I try to think the the pressure I have on the ground,the...whatever I think about just seems to stupid.
It really seems stupid and doesn't give me any feeling...
so...maybe I should just forget it.I'm too disappointed.

Well, Ramin, maybe it isn't time yet for you to do these things. Successful lucid dreaming does require a solid, sometimes very substantial commitment of time, energy, and patience. If you haven't any of those available right now, then maybe its time to look for some other pursuit. This is because there really are no shortcuts; to enjoy LD'ing, you must put in time and effort. That said:

I know my class has seven sessions, but taken one at a time I think they are fairly simple, I think -- and the homework isn't that difficult. It was set up to do one session per week; you might want to try that out. If that is still too much, DV has a good introduction to WILD that is much shorter than mine; you might want to check it out if you haven't already.

Regarding the other stuff: you might want to hunker down and really try to do RC's. They're more important than you might think, and also a nice step toward working on your self-awareness. Also, you didn't mention it at all, but you also might consider keeping a dream journal (a simple pad and pen near your bed works best). And yes, these things take time and effort, but they are worth it.

As long as I'm here:

Originally Posted by Ramin2097

BTW I know this may be irrelevant but I need to ask it.
1-is self-hypnosis helpful?are there some reliable guide or books about it?
2-everywhere I read meditation is very helpful and even crucial for LDing.but as a beginner I don't have any idea how should I do it.
I googled "meditation for beginners" but didn't get what exactly looking for.however I found something which can help but still....
3-also if you know any good book or guide again for programming subconscious and mastering it tell me please.
sorry.I know I'm more asking about resources than asking something relevant to the subject.but I'm just new to all this stuff(subconscious mind,LD,delf hypnosis etc)and don't know where to start mastering these things.I believe mastering these is the way to master the whole life...
Thanks and sorry!

1. Self hypnosis can be helpful, but really only works, I believe, as a supplement to MILD, and not on its own. So you still have to do the other things anyway. It also, of course, takes time and effort to learn self-hypnosis (those recordings you can buy are only the first step). So yes, self-hypnosis can work, but not alone and it is not a shortcut; Sorry!

2. Meditation is important, and for that matter WILD, if looked at sideways, is little more than just the result of meditation. Meditation comes in many forms, with many levels of difficulty, and many different applications. In my mind there is no single "meditation for beginners" that would fit all applications, including LD'ing. That said:

In a nutshell, I believe that mediation is ultimately an act of clearing of your mind and opening it in the process to new input, flexibility, and introspection. If you can simply sit down and quietly clear your mind for a period of time, perhaps relaxing in the process, you have begun to meditate.

Also: meditation is already built in to most decent WILD tutorials, including mine, though the word might not have been used. So if you learn to WILD, you very likely are also learning to meditate!

Oh, and yes, like everything else it takes time to learn to meditate properly...

3. I cannot offer a source for programming your unconscious because I do not believe there is one, nor will there be probably for a very long time (if ever). The unconscious is an incredibly complex place, driven by a supercomputer (the brain) about which science has barely learned to understand the basics, much less reprogram it. So, regardless of the claims you might read in some of those breathless device ads, nothing will reprogram your unconscious... Noting except, of course, you, through the long-term efforts you make doing day-work like RC's, RRC's dream-journaling, setting expectation/intentions, etc.

There is nothing wrong with asking for sources, Ramin, and carefully reading as much valid information as you can absorb (I recommend, for instance, that you read LaBerge's Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, if you haven't already) as you learn to master these things. But keep in mind that mastery of everything you listed requires an enormous amount of time, effort, and dedication -- and even then you might never master them. But you know what? You can LD just fine without mastering any of those things, including LD'ing! There are levels to everything, and sometimes you can get a lot out of just taking the first few steps toward lucdity.

tl;dr (both posts): Like it or not, Ramin, lucid dreaming requires some time and effort; there may be aids for your journey, are no shortcuts. If you're not ready yet to do the work, it might be a good idea to set it all aside for some other time.

Best of luck to you, regardless!

First of all I really appreciate your help.Thank you very much.
well yesterday I suddenly just felt bad and lost my hope but managed to calm and motivate myself
about the RC thing I'll give it a try.however don't know how to remember doing it.maybe I get myself a watch so it remembers me each hour.according to that I may forget doing it without something to remember is it better to have the watch and each hour (or 2 hour) do RCs or randomly whenever I remember it then do RC?
I guess I heard if every hour look at the watch and do RC then make it do that at night too while asleep by hearing the voice you become lucid if your dreaming.is it true?
1-No I don't want it just for LD.what records do you mean?
2-lol.didn't notice that.
3-well I agree I should do it and there isn't someone or something do it magically.what I'm looking for is how to do that.so what I need is a reliable source(book,site anything)which tell me how should I do it.
well of course they take time.but as you said it's worth it.
again Thank You very much!
and sorry for my English!

Originally Posted by Ramin2097

First of all I really appreciate your help.Thank you very much.
well yesterday I suddenly just felt bad and lost my hope but managed to calm and motivate myself
about the RC thing I'll give it a try.

That's good; successful LD'ing is far more a result of your state of mind than it is the result of any technique or lucid aid, I think. So keeping your confidence and expectations at as high a level as you can ought to be a priority.

however don't know how to remember doing it.maybe I get myself a watch so it remembers me each hour.according to that I may forget doing it without something to remember is it better to have the watch and each hour (or 2 hour) do RCs or randomly whenever I remember it then do RC?
I guess I heard if every hour look at the watch and do RC then make it do that at night too while asleep by hearing the voice you become lucid if your dreaming.is it true?

I've been doing RC's for decades now, and I still don't know how to consistently remember to do them! My house is decorated (or littered) with little reminders placed everywhere I go -- when I see a reminder, I do a RC. A watch with an alarm -- especially one whose alarm you can program to go off randomly -- is an excellent idea as well.

I guess the really important thing to do with RC's is to acknowledge to yourself that remembering to do them will be a challenge, and then try to meet that challenge. Assume that you will always remember to do RC's, and you will probably stop doing them at all very soon.

1-No I don't want it just for LD.what records do you mean?

I honestly can't help with this. The recordings I sampled have probably been out of circulation for years, but they were called "Ultra Meditation" if you want to search for them. Regarding self-hypnosis aids, that sounds like a good request to make on a new thread -- there's got to be a few DV members who've tried this stuff recently, I think.

3-well I agree I should do it and there isn't someone or something do it magically.what I'm looking for is how to do that.so what I need is a reliable source(book,site anything)which tell me how should I do it.
well of course they take time.but as you said it's worth it.

Again, I suggest that you get a copy of LaBerge's Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, as it really is a great summary of how to approach successful LD'ing....And of course you could always read through my own Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals thread!

and sorry for my English!

Your English is just fine, very nice, in fact!

First of all I want to say thank you a lot again!lol.for your guides,motivations and also confident about my English!
So these days I'm trying to improve my awareness and these are things I do:
1-When I have the time I start to think the effects I had that day on my friends,family... and vice-versa.
Today I thought about that I asked my friend to come with me somewhere and because of that we made it late to the class.So teacher didn't let us in...(LOL.forgot the point)I thought how this act of me changed the time we were supposed to get home at normal times,the lunch time etc.Also thought about the effects he had on me.
2-I also try to get as much data I can from where I am.I mostly focus on sounds but also focus on the texture of my bag in my hand for example.the surface I'm walking on.The feel I have in my clothes and their weight etc.I try to get them all at the same time.
3-Where "I" am.
The first time I tried to do this I didn't have any idea.The second time I did it(don't remember I had the plan or came up naturally!)I wanted something so bad and it was making me do something crazy.I examined my self.Dammit!An hour
(the previous time I did it) I felt normally and this thing I want it so bad wasn't thinking about at all!when I calmed myself again thought about it.1st time-didn't have and idea what I'm supposed to do.2nd time-wanting something so bad driving me crazy.3rd time-Hell Yep.I managed to control myself and feel good.
Even the next time it occured to me to want that thing again thinking about the 3 last positions of me helped me prevent that feeling!
4-What was I doing?I try to reverse my day.I don't what was I doing 15 minutes age.Just think about the last thing I was on.
Now I'm typing this reply!Before this I was studying Physics!Before that watching TV etc
5-RC.Maybe I'm not doing it the way I should.Anyway I do a simple nose-plug(what was it exactly?!) and except to be able to breath.
So...I guess that's it.When I do this things they don't even take more than 5 minutes.But what I wonder is that Am I doing it right?Am I feeling the way I should?Am I doing it with enough attention?etc
Also wonder if I'm doing it enough?I usually do a combination of them at them at the same time.
Once I did 1-3-4.once just 4.once all of the above!

BTW two nights ago I tried SSILD.That night as it was mentioned that it may happen I couldn't sleep very well.I woke up naturally on 3 I guess.went to bathroom.then back to bed.tried it.Then I let it go and tried to sleep.I guess at last it was about 4:30 I managed to sleep!A riot started in my mind!every thought about every thing was attacking me!I moved a lot in my bed with an unfocused mind.It was out of my control.I had a very short dream between this 1:30 hour which I woke up between.
when I woke up on 5:30 I remembered my dreams without even trying to recall.

Looks like you're off to a good start, Ramin. Here are some thoughts:

Originally Posted by Ramin2097

1-When I have the time I start to think the effects I had that day on my friends,family... and vice-versa.
Today I thought about that I asked my friend to come with me somewhere and because of that we made it late to the class.So teacher didn't let us in...(LOL.forgot the point)I thought how this act of me changed the time we were supposed to get home at normal times,the lunch time etc.Also thought about the effects he had on me.

That's very good.

2-I also try to get as much data I can from where I am.I mostly focus on sounds but also focus on the texture of my bag in my hand for example.the surface I'm walking on.The feel I have in my clothes and their weight etc.I try to get them all at the same time.

Be careful that you don't gather too much data with this step; don't get caught up in details; notice them, sure, but remember that an RRC is an exercise meant to heighten your own presence among these these things (and your local reality), and not to heighten the presence of objects around you. So collect some data, but as it relates to you... for instance, instead of feeling the texture of that bag, think about why you are holding it, about the stuff inside it, and so on. Gathering data like that is not a bad idea, though, if, say, you include it in your RC.

3-Where "I" am.
The first time I tried to do this I didn't have any idea.The second time I did it(don't remember I had the plan or came up naturally!)I wanted something so bad and it was making me do something crazy.I examined my self.Dammit!An hour
(the previous time I did it) I felt normally and this thing I want it so bad wasn't thinking about at all!when I calmed myself again thought about it.1st time-didn't have and idea what I'm supposed to do.2nd time-wanting something so bad driving me crazy.3rd time-Hell Yep.I managed to control myself and feel good. Even the next time it occured to me to want that thing again thinking about the 3 last positions of me helped me prevent that feeling!

I'm not sure I understand your words here, but in case I do: When you ask yourself where you are, you should leave it at that: just see where you are, period; if you're standing on a stairway in your house, for instance, just acknowledge that and leave it there. In questioning where you are right now you are more establishing your position -- a baseline for the rest of the RRC -- and there's no real need to add more to the wondering here. Oh, and if you do not know where you are when you ask that question, then take a moment and make sure you're not actually dreaming!

4-What was I doing?I try to reverse my day.I don't what was I doing 15 minutes age.Just think about the last thing I was on.
Now I'm typing this reply!Before this I was studying Physics!Before that watching TV etc

That's good.

5-RC.Maybe I'm not doing it the way I should.Anyway I do a simple nose-plug(what was it exactly?!) and except to be able to breath.

That's fine too -- and a good time to RC.

So...I guess that's it. When I do this things they don't even take more than 5 minutes.But what I wonder is that Am I doing it right?Am I feeling the way I should?Am I doing it with enough attention?etc Also wonder if I'm doing it enough?I usually do a combination of them at them at the same time. Once I did 1-3-4.once just 4.once all of the above!

Five minutes seems a good time to spend on a RRC, though less is okay (much more than that, though, and you might be getting carried away). If you are feeling like a person who is wondering about his interaction with his local reality, and it with him, then you are feeling the way you should. Whether you are doing it with enough attention is up to you in the end (that is hard to tell from a report anyway). I highly recommend that you find a way or the time to ask, answer, and wonder about all the questions in the same time frame. Splitting them up tends to turn them into something else, and the value of the RRC may be lost... asking the three basic questions (where am I? Where was I? Where will I be?) establishes you in a specific position in your reality, a position from which you can comfortably wonder about your place in it; leave out one or two qustions, and suddenly that position loses definition, and your RRC loses its impact.

Nice work overall Ramin; keep it up!

Be careful that you don't gather too much data with this step; don't get caught up in details; notice them, sure, but remember that an RRC is an exercise meant to heighten your own presence among these these things (and your local reality), and not to heighten the presence of objects around you. So collect some data, but as it relates to you... for instance, instead of feeling the texture of that bag, think about why you are holding it, about the stuff inside it, and so on. Gathering data like that is not a bad idea, though, if, say, you include it in your RC.

OOPS!Thanks I was doing it wrong.

I'm not sure I understand your words here, but in case I do: When you ask yourself where you are, you should leave it at that: just see where you are, period; if you're standing on a stairway in your house, for instance, just acknowledge that and leave it there. In questioning where you are right now you are more establishing your position -- a baseline for the rest of the RRC -- and there's no real need to add more to the wondering here. Oh, and if you do not know where you are when you ask that question, then take a moment and make sure you're not actually dreaming!

So you mean I should mind my physical location at this time?
I meant that I think about my mental and emotional position;If I'm happy now how was I feeling the last time?was I happy then too or sad?why was I sad?How do I feel about the thing I was sad of.Still important for me that affecting me or not...
If I'm relaxed now how was I feeling last time?If not relaxed then why...

I highly recommend that you find a way or the time to ask, answer, and wonder about all the questions in the same time frame. Splitting them up tends to turn them into something else, and the value of the RRC may be lost... asking the three basic questions (where am I? Where was I? Where will I be?) establishes you in a specific position in your reality, a position from which you can comfortably wonder about your place in it; leave out one or two questions, and suddenly that position loses definition, and your RRC loses its impact.

So:
1-I ask myself where am I(mental,physical or both?) wonder and think about it.
2-Where was I.(if should mind mental position too then is it good to analyze the reasons?Why I was sad,is the reason still affecting me...)also what about physical location?Does it matter which time I think of?
3-Where will I be.Just wonder it...
4-Collect some data.What am I carrying,Why?
Why I'm walking?going somewhere or just bored and walking around?etc
5-Try to remember my day by reversing it.
What was my location before?If I'm in the bus now then before that I was waiting at the bus station?.
If now that I'm in bus don't have anything to do before this I was talking to my friend while waiting for the bus then separated..etc
6-My effects on others and vice-versa
7-RC.
The first three as you said are basics and shouldn't be separated.what about the others?
Thanks

^^ I suggest, Ramin, that you read the first session of my WILD class, where the RRC is introduced. Hopefully you will see that it is a very simple exercise that only has you remembering where you were/what you were doing a few minutes ago, foreseeing where you will be/what you will be doing in a few minutes, noticing where you are/what you are doing right now, and honestly wondering about your interaction with your local reality throughout all that... and nothing more. There is no need to explore your feelings, reverse the day, collect data, think about your mental condition, or anything else. The RRC was meant to be a very simple device to remind you that you are always interacting with your local reality, and it with you, while simultaneously helping you to remember that you were somewhere else earleir, and will be somewhere else later. It is really not going to work if you try to build so many things into it.

In other words: Ultimately, the RRC is meant to give you a moment of simple self-awareness and memory, one that you can repeat in a dream, and will help you to better establish in the dream that everything is You. It is not meant to handle feelings, examine details, or other complicated things. The only real thought you should put into one is just wondering about your interaction with reality, and it with you.

More specifically:

Originally Posted by Ramin2097

So you mean I should mind my physical location at this time?

If by "mind" you mean acknowledge its presence, and your presence in it, then yes.

I meant that I think about my mental and emotional position;If I'm happy now how was I feeling the last time?was I happy then too or sad?why was I sad?How do I feel about the thing I was sad of.Still important for me that affecting me or not...
If I'm relaxed now how was I feeling last time?If not relaxed then why...

You do not need to do any of that. This is not a time for exploring feelings, Ramin. I'm not sure where you got that from; if it was from me, then I am sorry I confused you.

1-I ask myself where am I(mental,physical or both?) wonder and think about it.

Just physical is fine, and keep it simple.

2-Where was I.(if should mind mental position too then is it good to analyze the reasons?Why I was sad,is the reason still affecting me...)also what about physical location?Does it matter which time I think of?

Again, your mental position does not matter. Just remember where you were and what you were doing.

3-Where will I be.Just wonder it...

It's okay to know it -- most people have some idea where they will be in a few minutes -- when they are not dreaming.

4-Collect some data.What am I carrying,Why? Why I'm walking?going somewhere or just bored and walking around?etc

Don't get too involved with data collecting, Ramin; if you start filling your head with extra information, you will lose the point of the RRC. Also, there is no need to examine why you are walking somewhere, just notice that you are.

5-Try to remember my day by reversing it.
What was my location before?If I'm in the bus now then before that I was waiting at the bus station?.
If now that I'm in bus don't have anything to do before this I was talking to my friend while waiting for the bus then separated..etc

Just remember where you were a few minutes ago; there is no need to reverse anything. Your bus example is a good one.

6-My effects on others and vice-versa

Yes.

7-RC.

Sure.

The first three as you said are basics and shouldn't be separated.what about the others?
Thanks

The first three are all you have to do, Ramin. Feel free to toss out the rest, except the RC, which is fine to do before or after the RRC.

I hope you understand this now Ramin, and that you understand that adding complication to a simple exercise like a RRC will not help, but hinder its effect.

Hmmm....My bad.got it.
BTW if I stay for a long time at home in my room wouldn't it be ineffective to wonder over and over that :"I was in my room,I am in my room..."I mean as you mentioned it shouldn't lose the wonder.This way I guess it loses it wonder...
And maybe I'm not prepared but gonna give it a try and do WILD!of course if I wake up normally.Cause some nights I wake up naturally.Most nights in fact.Then after staying up a bit I'll try it.Wish me luck!

^^ If you are in your room for a long time it might not be a good idea to do RRC's "over and over," I would think. However, keep in mind that if you are also on your computer when in your room, there are likely many bits of reality with which you are interacting, thanks to the internet.

Good luck with the WILD class!

Sorry if you've covered this already in this thread, but I'm basically stuck at transition, moving in and out of vivid dreamlets like all sorts of people are I suppose, and I'm pretty sure I've got my timing right for REM because I've been doing this every night for a month, and I'm bound to have hit the right cycle at some point. I'm also getting some pretty crazy audio and visual hypnogogic stuff going on routinely, building to full-on dreamlets.

I just cannot "roll out of my body" or "step into the dream" or "say I will be at that place in the dream" as I have sometimes heard suggested. I've suddenly realized I was walking in a dream, even heard crunching leaves, heard my physical body snoring, saw my dream arms raised at my sides, once touched a computer screen, heard a beep and saw words appear, and even heard the explosion of a cash register and saw brilliant numbers scrolling down my visio. But I have never managed to make the transition into a dream, and I have basically abandoned my attempts around the 45 minute mark because of the feeling of futility. I have never, during any of those attempts, experienced a tacticle sensation. Every one of my WILD attempts has strickly involved audio or visual experiences, so I've never sensed truly "being inside the dream" as a willful entity.

So my questions, I guess, are how long should I keep waiting for transition to occur? Can I expect a switch to flip and this rush of lucidity to happen on its own, or it this entirely dependent on a subtle act of willpower on my part? And is there some way to make that switch to tactile feeling happen? I think if I FELT something in a dream scene, I'd be "in" the dream. Anything less feels like random daydreaming.

Welcome, 2Jupes! You seem to have things pretty well in hand, and you might not be so much stuck as you simply haven't reached transition yet, but here are a couple of responses:

Originally Posted by 2Jupes

I'm basically stuck at transition, moving in and out of vivid dreamlets like all sorts of people are I suppose, and I'm pretty sure I've got my timing right for REM because I've been doing this every night for a month, and I'm bound to have hit the right cycle at some point. I'm also getting some pretty crazy audio and visual hypnogogic stuff going on routinely, building to full-on dreamlets.

First and foremost, a month is not necessarily that long a time to be seeking a successful WILD. If you're consistently experiencing hypnagogia and dreamlets, you may be closer than you think... indeed, if you are experiencing "full-on dreamlets," you might already be there, but simply haven't fully recognized the state. A full-on dreamlet, after all, especially as you've described them above, could actually be a dream.

It might not hurt, and may be easier than you think, to take a shot at working yourself into those dreamlets and forming them into full-on dreams. Also, as there is no sign that pops up to announce you are lucid and dreaming properly, sometimes you do need to recognize the state on your own, and create your own "ah-ha! moment. This is especially true in WILD, where there are so many distractions (including the sometimes nagging awareness that wakefulness is literally an eye-blink away, as represented by hearing your body snoring), and the constant presence of your self-awareness can sometimes cause a mental anomaly akin to forgetting that you are self-ware.

I just cannot "roll out of my body" or "step into the dream" or "say I will be at that place in the dream" as I have sometimes heard suggested.

Then don't. We are not all wired the same way, and some of these popular techniques and suggestions simply don't work (i.e., I'm pretty sure I've never rolled out of my body, and have never felt at a loss for not doing so). The real priority in WILD (and LD'ing in general) is including your self-awareness in the dream, and with it on hand you will have little trouble, with practice, developing your own method for "knowing" you are dreaming, and for getting things moving. Sometimes doing specific things that other people tell you to do simply gets in the way.

I see you have some successful DILDs listed in your profile. I would suggest looking more to your feelings and knowledge you were dreaming during those as a source for spotting the dream in a WILD than in producing a transition as prescribed by someone else, even me.

... and I have basically abandoned my attempts around the 45 minute mark because of the feeling of futility.

This, 2Jupes, may be your primary obstacle: you simply did not give your WILD dives enough time. 45 minutes is not a long time for a WILD attempt; in fact, it is more a median. I would suggest that you continue your attempt for as long as possible, without considering giving up until at least 90 minutes have passed. Sometimes these things take a while longer than you might expect, and, from your reporting, it sounds like you just needed a few more minutes. Try to be patient, hold that feeling of futility at bay a bit longer (or better yet eliminate it completely), and stay positive, aware, and attentive for a while longer -- it might be worth the effort! On a personal note, I've waited as long as two hours for sleep and dreams to come quite a few times, and a full hour from WBTB to sleep is common for me.

I have never, during any of those attempts, experienced a tactile sensation. Every one of my WILD attempts has strickly involved audio or visual experiences, so I've never sensed truly "being inside the dream" as a willful entity.

So?

There are no rules for this, and audio and visual can be more than enough sensation during the WILD dive. And, given that most dreams tend to be mostly centered around sight and sound, with touch and smell occurring but often secondary, I'm not sure that you need to qualify something as a dream only if tactile sensation is possible. Again, you might simply be choosing not to sense being inside the dream as a willful entity, try giving yourself the opportunity to do so, even if everything isn't perfect or completely like what you would normally term a dream.


Now, I think I already answered all your questions, but it makes for a good tl;dr, so here you go again:

So my questions, I guess, are how long should I keep waiting for transition to occur?

Try for a minimum of 90 minutes if you can; both because this way you give your body every chance to get back to sleep before your next REM period, and also because more than 90 minutes of being awake tends to separate you from your sleep cycle, and you might simply be awake for the day.

Can I expect a switch to flip and this rush of lucidity to happen on its own, or it this entirely dependent on a subtle act of willpower on my part?

There are no switches that I know of; this really is an act of willpower/self-awareness on your part. Also, try not to expect too much of a "rush of lucidity," as happens in DILD, because you are literally lucid throughout your WILD, so, since it's already with you, there may be no feeling of its arrival.

And is there some way to make that switch to tactile feeling happen? I think if I FELT something in a dream scene, I'd be "in" the dream. Anything less feels like random daydreaming.

Not that I know of, nor do I see any reason for the presence of a tactile feeling in a dream to define the dream. But that's me. Still, it might be better to set aside the need to touch as a parameter for dreaming... If you must have tactile sensations, look for them after you have decided that you are indeed dreaming, and have begun to explore. This need to touch may be another block to success, in that you are simply not accepting that you are in a dream when perhaps you are. Oh, and if they are all full of sound and visuals, then I sort of envy you your random daydreams!

I hope this made sense, and that I did not contradict myself too often (I do that a lot). If anything was not clear, let me know and I'll try again.

Hah awesome, thanks. That was all super helpful. I'll create a gift basket in my first WILD and send it your way

Nate

So I read the WILD Session 2 on Monday, but I have a question. The goal was to find the right time to WBTB...but HOW do we do that? I never really notice myself wake up in the night is there a trick to doing that?

Is DJing and just working on the RRC technique during the day sufficient daytime work? I do an RC right after the RRC too. That is all I've been doing and I'm wondering if I should add any other practices into the day.

Also, this part could probably go into the LD fundamentals thread, but making another post doesn't make much since to me. i've always been curious how you came up with the RRC technique. There are so many small details you have to get right with the RRC, how did you come up with it, and how did you know how to do it the right way? Sorry if that question was already asked...I'm just really curious and couldn't wait for an answer any longer

Originally Posted by Sharpshoey

So I read the WILD Session 2 on Monday, but I have a question. The goal was to find the right time to WBTB...but HOW do we do that? I never really notice myself wake up in the night is there a trick to doing that?

How do you find the "sweet spot," as in when to wake up, how long to WBTB? One word: Practice.

Do some experimentation: get up at different times, change the length of your WBTB, then mix and match, and you will eventually fall upon the time and WBTB length that works best for you.

You do not really need to notice yourself waking up, so much as make a priority of actually getting up after 5 or more hours of sleep. That might sound silly, but it isn't. You already have a natural tendency to wake up for a few seconds after each REM period, and, with a little prospective memory attached, you will likely wake up with the thought that it is time to do a WBTB -- and yes, that prospective memory will be set with your intentions and a little practice, and yes, all that stuff together will eventually have you actually getting out of bed when you wake up after several hours' sleep. That said: I don't recommend this, but if prospective memory fails morning after morning and you continue to refuse to wake up late in the sleep cycle, you can always set an alarm clock (if you can get your hands on one of those gentle zen alarm clocks, that might help).

So: there is no trick. Simply do some trial and error, and you will work out your own optimum WBTB time and length. And yes, when the ill is there, you will notice when you are naturally waking up -- but if not, then settle for an alarm.

Is DJing and just working on the RRC technique during the day sufficient daytime work? I do an RC right after the RRC too. That is all I've been doing and I'm wondering if I should add any other practices into the day.

I doubt there is ever "sufficient" daytime work, but DJ'ing, RRC's, and RC's is a substantial start.

You should also be giving lots of thought to your next planned LD, and try to think about dreaming as often as you can, to build up some expectation. Plus, it doesn't hurt to do some reading about ld'ing, talking about it (posting here is always a good thing), and just having it on our mind, to maybe cause a bit of dreamy day residue, and help get your head in a good, dream-oriented place. Beyond that there is surely more, like meditation or mnemonic exercises; the limits are up to you.

Remember also that this is a WILD course, and not a general LD'ing course. For the sake of brevity and concision I might have left things out that are not directly related to completing your WILD.

So: DJ'ing, RRC's, and RC's are certainly a strong start, but there is always more you could be doing.

...I've always been curious how you came up with the RRC technique. There are so many small details you have to get right with the RRC, how did you come up with it, and how did you know how to do it the right way?

I think it came up with me. The RRC simply reflects a thing I found myself doing a few years ago as atool to augment my ever-troublesome memory, and give myself a self-awareness reminder on a frequent basis. The details were assembled by just sitting quietly and thinking about what I was asking myself so many times a day.

How did I know how to do it the right way? Well, because the way I was doing it worked, I guess!

OK so I've been trying to pay attention to the times I wake up in the night. I have noticed waking up at exactly 3:45 and just last night I woke up around 3:25 (it was somewhere in the 3:20's) So do you think I should wake up around 3:30 then? I go to bed at 10 every night so that would be over 5 hours of sleep. It would be great to hear your thoughts on this though.

^^ I'm not sure why you are asking me this. When you wake up is up to you, based on your own experimentation and comfort. I can certainly not tell you, apparently to the minute, when you should wake up, nor would I want to. Try to use your own judgment. Also, keep in mind that this is not a measure of minutes; try to work your trial and error across a good amount of time -- i.e, try waking up after 4 hrs, 5 hrs, 6 hrs, and just find the time that works best for you.

Ya I don't really know hwy I just asked that question. I certainly don't want anyone else to dictate how I sleep! I think I may have just been over thinking the WBTB time or something like that. (not really thinking clearly right now) Thanks for the reply regardless.

From what I have gleaned from this thread, the RRC seems to be a mental practice in recognizing your local interaction with reality - the things you do, why you do them, how you do them, etc. All because of the nature of our consciousness do we have this so called "self-awareness" that is really just us living our lives through our own eyes - and it seems that this is what the practice of self awareness deals with.

Hopefully im on the right track because it made sense when i was typing. Sageous thanks for making this thread - it will for sure help push me on my path, though Im not sure I agree with everything youve written here (not that you would want me too, of course), I for sure have found a lot of value in the time and effort you invested in putting this thread together. On behalf of the community, thank you.