Thread: What happened? Post Your WILD Attempts, Good or Bad, Here

^^ Next time, then!

I suggest again, though, that if some waking-life event intrudes on your plan, skip the attempt for the day.

So nobody was home yesterday or today, so I planned for a WILD this morning.

I lied there on my back trying to get comfortable(I don't sleep on my back often), and after a surprisingly short time, I was hit by a wave of paralysis. It was an intense feeling and I didn't really expect it, I started thinking about if I'd see hallucinations, but quickly swatted that thought away and started focusing on the dream scene I wanted to be in. Soon enough, the paralysis wore off and I was awake.

Wide awake if you will because I couldn't help but get excited about it, I was also excited because I usually have heaps of trouble falling asleep on my back, like I just get ants in pants and feel the urge to move all the time.

Either way, next time!

Last night I had a nearly successful WILD or DEILD. I think it was closer to a DEILD because I woke up, then without thinking tried to fall back asleep while staying aware. I felt vibrations then saw my room like how I was lying in my bed, but there was light coming through the windows, and I got excited and tried to rush it, then woke up. I like how I instinctively attempted to DEILD without thinking about it however

^^ Not just closer to a DEILD, but actually a DEILD, I think; but then again, DEILD is a form of WILD, so I guess it was both.

Of course you had to get to the dream for it to be either, so cover those windows, ignore the vibrations, and don't get excited or rush it next time!

And yes, half the battle is developing a mindset that has you attempting a DEILD even before it occurs to you that you're doing so; very cool. Now to the other half?

Alright, so I feel like I need some help troubleshooting this.

Last night, I wake up naturally 5 hours and 20 minutes after laying down. Assured that I am awake beyond the point of attempting a DEILD, I write some in my journal and then pace my room for about 10 minutes. I lay back down in my bed, go numb like I always do, hold on to my awareness, then instead of black and dark blue, I start seeing some light grey lined by a thin rainbow of color as I have before. At first when attempting to WILD, I figured my excitement was waking me too much at this point. Now, and as per your recommendations (or how I interpreted them), I noted them, and then moved to ignore them, favoring instead to form a mental picture in my head to look to. It's simple, just the back of my hand and my wrist. The grey and lights fade after about 30 seconds. They return about three more times over the course of the next hour, but I am unable to fall asleep.

I laid there for an hour last night before rolling onto my side to try there. I wasn't holding tightly to my awareness, and 14 minutes after rolling over, I wake from a very small dream. After waking from that, I go back to holding my focus, and am unable to fall asleep again. My problem, then, is that I cannot seem to fall asleep while holding my focus and that my mind loves to antagonize me. I have not been able to have a successful WILD after about five nights of attempting, and nearly this exact scenario happened the night before as well and a very similar one before that. Now, I have nothing more to read and touch up on, and I still cannot discern my problem. It shouldn't be timing, I woke up at what I have decided was the optimal time for WBTB, and I know my sleep cycle to last about an hour before waking again, so something should have happened in that time I was laying there, right? It is also not that I cannot fall asleep, not long after abandoning a WILD attempt, I lose consciousness. Am I ignoring the HI (I am not sure that what I have been seeing is even true HI) too much and stimulating my mind with the small visualization of my hand to fall asleep? Furthermore, can I use those small dream fragments for DEILD? I call them dream fragments because they are very short in reality and in my mind.

I greatly appreciate any help and can offer more detailed information on request if needed.

EDIT: If you would like, I can contribute to the WILD attempts thread here on the forums. I had not read through that previously, and if you would like me to post my attempts to help discern the problem, that would probably be the best place, no?

Welcome, x75flames!

It seems you made a decent attempt, but here are a couple of thoughts (I'm assuming you're listed a couple of separate attempts):

Originally Posted by x75flames

Last night, I wake up naturally 5 hours and 20 minutes after laying down. Assured that I am awake beyond the point of attempting a DEILD, I write some in my journal and then pace my room for about 10 minutes. I lay back down in my bed, go numb like I always do, hold on to my awareness, then instead of black and dark blue, I start seeing some light grey lined by a thin rainbow of color as I have before. At first when attempting to WILD, I figured my excitement was waking me too much at this point. Now, and as per your recommendations (or how I interpreted them), I noted them, and then moved to ignore them, favoring instead to form a mental picture in my head to look to. It's simple, just the back of my hand and my wrist. The grey and lights fade after about 30 seconds. They return about three more times over the course of the next hour, but I am unable to fall asleep.

That seems like a decent attempt, and that you correctly interpreted my recommendations . It is definitely a good idea to have your mind focused more on the dream than on the noise, so ignoring the HI seemed good plan to me (though it is interesting that most of your report is about the HI; perhaps it needs just a bit more ignoring?). I also would suggest a more interesting dream goal than just viewing your hand and wrist. Visualizing a substantial dream place might give your dreaming mind a little incentive to produce something. Did I misunderstand something?

Bottom line here, though, is that it seems your body was disinterested in going back to sleep; there is not much you can do about that!

I laid there for an hour last night before rolling onto my side to try there. I wasn't holding tightly to my awareness, and 14 minutes after rolling over, I wake from a very small dream. After waking from that, I go back to holding my focus, and am unable to fall asleep again. My problem, then, is that I cannot seem to fall asleep while holding my focus and that my mind loves to antagonize me. I have not been able to have a successful WILD after about five nights of attempting, and nearly this exact scenario happened the night before as well and a very similar one before that. Now, I have nothing more to read and touch up on, and I still cannot discern my problem.

Are you using a meaningful mantra as you make these attempts? If not, I think it would be a good idea, as mantras are instrumental in holding your focus, and can also provide some expectation/intentions from which your dreaming mind can build.

Also, five nights of trying is not a very long time, so don't despair just yet!

It shouldn't be timing, I woke up at what I have decided was the optimal time for WBTB, and I know my sleep cycle to last about an hour before waking again, so something should have happened in that time I was laying there, right?

It would seem that you should have another hour of sleep, doesn't it? Unfortunately, your body is often disinterested in cooperating as planned during WILD, so it might not hurt to try a few other timing combinations, like getting up earlier or later, or going to bed at a different time the night before. The correct timing plan could still be waiting for you to find it.

It is also not that I cannot fall asleep, not long after abandoning a WILD attempt, I lose consciousness. Am I ignoring the HI (I am not sure that what I have been seeing is even true HI) too much and stimulating my mind with the small visualization of my hand to fall asleep?

It is fairly normal to fall asleep after giving up on a WILD attempt, so don't worry about it -- I think it has more to do with your mind relaxing after your WILD attempt than it does ignoring HI (a good thing) or stimulating visualization (another good thing), so you probably don't need to change that strategy.

Furthermore, can I use those small dream fragments for DEILD? I call them dream fragments because they are very short in reality and in my mind.

You can only use them if you're waking up from a dream (when DEILD's happen), and in that case they likely won't be dreamlets (those fragments) but actual dreams. You can certainly use the dreamlets that appear during a WILD dive to help your form a dream, though.

Good luck with your next dive, x75flames, and remember to stay patient!

Originally Posted by Sageous

That seems like a decent attempt, and that you correctly interpreted my recommendations . It is definitely a good idea to have your mind focused more on the dream than on the noise, so ignoring the HI seemed good plan to me (though it is interesting that most of your report is about the HI; perhaps it needs just a bit more ignoring?). I also would suggest a more interesting dream goal than just viewing your hand and wrist. Visualizing a substantial dream place might give your dreaming mind a little incentive to produce something. Did I misunderstand something?

Bottom line here, though, is that it seems your body was disinterested in going back to sleep; there is not much you can do about that!


Are you using a meaningful mantra as you make these attempts? If not, I think it would be a good idea, as mantras are instrumental in holding your focus, and can also provide some expectation/intentions from which your dreaming mind can build.

I'll address these as one as they are very much the same. Yes, I realized that I did not mention that I was constantly repeating a mantra after I posted that, my bad. "Remember Ann" on every exhale. Ann was a fictional character, and companion, I wrote during a first person story. The premise of the story was originally derived from Alan Wake: I am the author trapped within one of my stories. As it went on, I played it off much like a dream. After finishing the story, I had two spontaneous Lucid Dreams, where in I immediately added Ann. After the second Lucid Dream with her, I decided to continue writing in first person and have expanded on the premise of my playing author in my own dreams, often writing things off as dream logic. Referencing dream logic actually broke a dream for me on the first night I attempted to have Lucid Dreams, but excitement immediately woke me.

Moving on. I have decided that WILD is more reliable than DILD, and I would like to do this very reliably, every night if at all possible. When I read that section of your course, I could think of nothing better than "Remember Ann." It's short and simple, but carries a lot of meaning behind it. Firstly, the fact that she is a fictional character of my creation serves to bring me back to reality, as per your recommendations of self awareness. Furthermore, I know that even thinking of Ann within a dream will break it, so I figure it wouldn't hurt to stack the odds for a DILD if the WILD attempt fails. Finally, Ann gives me a reason and means for Lucid Dreaming.

Back to the hand thing, as the HI started, I used the visualization of the back of my hand to reinforce my focus instead of simply repeating "Remember Ann" to ensure that I hold my focus through the potential distracting HI. On the back of my hand is a black A (Bioshock Infinite reference that I found amusingly fitting), and tied around my wrist is a strip of white cloth that holds significance in my stories. Again, both reference back to Ann, and if I saw either within my dreams, it would immediately break them into Lucid. I did not include all this in my original post because I was not planning on providing all this context. You said that I may wish to visualize something more interesting. In a previous night, I had visualized Ann herself, but I think that may be too much to think on with the intention being falling asleep. Invariably, my mind grew board, and I attempted to strike up a conversation with her (which is not strange considering) and the HI quickly fade

Now, onto your recommendation of holding something to give my mind something to dream about. I assume you mean a scene and perhaps a small plot? Wouldn't it be too early in the WILD attempt for that? I was under the impression that after the HI plays out for a time you were supposed to enter into a dream like state. My problem is the HI does not last for more than about a minute or less, and I highly doubt I am descending into the dream like state. I think that even the simple visualization of the back of my hand may have been too much. Would you recommend starting to form the dream as soon as the HI starts?

I would also like to note that Ann was not my primary focus going into this, but has developed as a more central point now. The goal is to master Lucid Dreaming, short term goal being to figure out WILD atm. Ann was an expected, and hoped for, side effect, but if I am using her as a means to induce them, she moves closer to a reason as well as a means. Take that for what you will. I guess I'm trying to say that I'm not just chasing a white rabbit down some hole, but that seems to be changing.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Also, five nights of trying is not a very long time, so don't despair just yet!

I'm not going to give up just yet, hoping that stubbornness may help me succeed. I go into it every night with high spirits and hopes, it's just after an hour of trying, I do feel like it isn't working. At which point instead of abandoning it entirely, I attempt to roll over and approach it from another angle (somewhat literally). Also, getting a personal response from someone like this is a great morale boost, so thank you for that alone.

Originally Posted by Sageous

It would seem that you should have another hour of sleep, doesn't it? Unfortunately, your body is often disinterested in cooperating as planned during WILD, so it might not hurt to try a few other timing combinations, like getting up earlier or later, or going to bed at a different time the night before. The correct timing plan could still be waiting for you to find it.

I was under the impression that the point of WBTB was to wake after NREM sleep was complete so that you could proceed straight into normal REM sleep, thereby making WILD a far less time consuming process and easier as you can avoid having to hold consciousness through NREM? If that is the case, I am fairly certain that ~5 hours is my NREM sleep time as I awake at that point naturally nearly every night, and my dreams follow that wakening, only on blurry one before has ever occurred before that time/awakening period. I have recorded as much of my times as possible over the last 6 nights if you would like me to post them.

Originally Posted by Sageous

You can only use them if you're waking up from a dream (when DEILD's happen), and in that case they likely won't be dreamlets (those fragments) but actual dreams. You can certainly use the dreamlets that appear during a WILD dive to help your form a dream, though.

That's rather a shame. I was hoping that I could use those to provoke DEILD and bypass the "lay down, hold still, and wait" process. Of note, they happen shortly after I roll over after WILDing and as I'm allowing my mind to go free and relax with my body before starting my next WILD attempt. As such, I carry no lucidity into them. If I am holding focus with a mantra or through counting, I do not get these. I do not think that forming a dream will be a problem though, I've got quite a bit to work with. I think my problem in lies that I am not moving through the HI (my current theory being because I am visualizing something when I should not be) and into the dream state for some reason.

I would like to thank you again for doing all of this. I will post my attempts as they develop, I guess. And again, I can back track and post my previous attempts if you think that it may help. I approached this as a scientific matter, and have kept as detailed notes as my still half asleep mind will allow on every night's happenings.

Ahh, Sageous, I feel as if I'm getting much closer,

Some Attempts:

After going to the bathroom and coming back to bed I positioned myself on my back, repeated my mantra with my breaths. After a bit some paralysis hit me, It was very strange, and had a dreamy feel to it, but at this point I was just focused on normalizing my breathing, I had no idea what to do and the paralysis wore off.

After doing my bathroom routine for my short WBTB, I laid down on my back. After a while, There were some flashing lights on my black behind my eyelids, and I felt some vibrations, normalized my breathing quickly, didn't really know what to do at this point, so I started visualizing the scene I wanted to be in, after a while the "Dream-like effect" I felt wore off and I got up.

The next attempt was nearly the same, but when I had the dream-like effect, I tried to will my arm up to do the nose plug reality check, when I say will it, I don't mean physically. More like an act of dream control, you think it and it happens. Unfortunately, this didn't work so I went back to the visualizing, nothing again.

---
I feel like I'm making it somewhere but navigating it blindly, when I get to that feel of "Oh my god, I think my wild attempt is kicking off", I'm not sure what to do when I get to this point. Like, I feel like I should focus on the dream(visualize) or on my mantra. But then that effect wears off and it feels like I need to be doing something on my end, sort of like my body provides the opportunity and I need to catapult myself into the dream.

If you could maybe give me some insight, ideas, suggestions, etc. that would be great, thanks!

Some more thoughts,x75flames:

Originally Posted by x75flames

I'll address these as one as they are very much the same. Yes, I realized that I did not mention that I was constantly repeating a mantra after I posted that, my bad. "Remember Ann" on every exhale. ... Referencing dream logic actually broke a dream for me on the first night I attempted to have Lucid Dreams, but excitement immediately woke me.

That's and outstanding mantra, period, for all the reasons you say (pretty advanced stuff, BTW). I suggest you be careful about referencing dream logic, because logic works just fine in dreams; it's memory that's failing you.

Back to the hand thing, as the HI started, I used the visualization of the back of my hand to reinforce my focus instead of simply repeating "Remember Ann" to ensure that I hold my focus through the potential distracting HI. On the back of my hand is a black A (Bioshock Infinite reference that I found amusingly fitting), and tied around my wrist is a strip of white cloth that holds significance in my stories. Again, both reference back to Ann, and if I saw either within my dreams, it would immediately break them into Lucid. I did not include all this in my original post because I was not planning on providing all this context. You said that I may wish to visualize something more interesting. In a previous night, I had visualized Ann herself, but I think that may be too much to think on with the intention being falling asleep. Invariably, my mind grew board, and I attempted to strike up a conversation with her (which is not strange considering) and the HI quickly fade

Oh. Well, that makes a little more sense now; it perhaps would have been nice if you had shared that as well, as it would have saved us both a bit of time, but no worries! Again; very advanced stuff, and nicely arranged, both for holding focus and building expectation.

Now, onto your recommendation of holding something to give my mind something to dream about. I assume you mean a scene and perhaps a small plot? Wouldn't it be too early in the WILD attempt for that? I was under the impression that after the HI plays out for a time you were supposed to enter into a dream like state. My problem is the HI does not last for more than about a minute or less, and I highly doubt I am descending into the dream like state. I think that even the simple visualization of the back of my hand may have been too much. Would you recommend starting to form the dream as soon as the HI starts?

You can start thinking about your upcoming dream scene anytime you want, be it during the WILD, before the WILD, or even during the days leading up to the WILD. The longer and more clearly you hold and nurture expectation/intention, the better the chance of your dream being a reflection of those expectations. This goes both for an actual dream plot or theme, or perhaps installing a mental "trigger" into your unconscious that clicks during the dream to remind you that you're dreaming (i.e., you spend much time planning a dream about a little yellow dog, and when the dog appears, you are ready to say, "Hey, I'm dreaming!").

Contrary to the many tutorials and popular notions ranging about the Web, there is no set or required sequence of events in WILD -- beyond of course falling asleep without losing self-awareness. HI need not appear at all, much less be required to play out for a time before you're scheduled to enter a dream-like state. That dream-like state can and will occur at any time -- sometimes even during WBTB, or perhaps long after you've given up on your WILD attempt. So, it both does not matter how long HI lasts, or whether it manifests at all, and descent into a dream-like state is not the required next step. Indeed, if you are expecting that a dream-like state will not appear because the noise of transition didn't seem to last long enough, then you likely won't ever get to that dream-like state (or, worse, you'll be asleep dreaming non-lucidly that you never reached the dream-like state!).

Yes, you can use HI as a starting point in building a dream schema, which I think I suggested in the course, but if you don't get HI for very long, or it is not helpful in that respect, then just ignore it. In other words, HI is not an integral necessity in achieving a WILD -- it's just an oft annoying roadmark that can be helpful if you want it to be, but can just as easily be ignored.

Bottom line here: I recommend that you start forming the dream whenever you're inclined to do so, without regard for HI or any dream-like states. There is no specific time to do so. I'm not sure if I implied otherwise in the course, but I sure hope not!

I'm not going to give up just yet, hoping that stubbornness may help me succeed. I go into it every night with high spirits and hopes, it's just after an hour of trying, I do feel like it isn't working. At which point instead of abandoning it entirely, I attempt to roll over and approach it from another angle (somewhat literally).

That is no doubt the right attitude... though you might hold off that new approach for 90 minutes or so.

I was under the impression that the point of WBTB was to wake after NREM sleep was complete so that you could proceed straight into normal REM sleep, thereby making WILD a far less time consuming process and easier as you can avoid having to hold consciousness through NREM? If that is the case, I am fairly certain that ~5 hours is my NREM sleep time as I awake at that point naturally nearly every night, and my dreams follow that wakening, only on blurry one before has ever occurred before that time/awakening period. I have recorded as much of my times as possible over the last 6 nights if you would like me to post them.

You have periods of NREM and REM sleep throughout the night. The reason for doing WILD after several hours of sleep is because as your sleep cycle moves through the night, REM periods occur at closer and closer intervals, with minimal NREM in between. So it isn't that NREM is "done" after 5 hours of sleep, it's that the odds are much better of catching a REM period at that point than it is earlier in the night. And yes, doing WILD is extremely difficult at the beginning of the night because as many as the first 90 minutes of sleep are in NREM, with a very short REM period following it. Also, unless you are extremely unusual, your dreams do not wait 5 hours to occur; you are dreaming in those early REM periods, though you might not remember the dreams.

There's no need to post your time/awakening periods. Indeed, you might consider not paying too much heed to them yourself. Too much examination of minutiae can lead to confusion and perhaps misdirect your efforts.

That's rather a shame. I was hoping that I could use those [dreamlets] to provoke DEILD and bypass the "lay down, hold still, and wait" process.

You shouldn't need to do that. DEILD (my personal favorite form of WILD, BTW) is meant to be used when you are emerging from an actual dream, long after passing dreamlets were left behind by your dreaming mind and your consciousness. Dreamlets are nothing more than brief images that appear during that time you spend on the fence between wake and sleep; if you cannot use them to form a dream as you're initially drifting off, then there is no other need to be concerned about them -- or miss them.

I think my problem in lies that I am not moving through the HI (my current theory being because I am visualizing something when I should not be) and into the dream state for some reason.

And it will continue to be a problem for as long as you hold onto concerns about "moving through the HI." Your WILD is an expression of the union of your self-awareness and dreaming mind (aka, your unconscious); it is not a thing defined by the noise.

Originally Posted by EmptyBucket

After going to the bathroom and coming back to bed I positioned myself on my back, repeated my mantra with my breaths. After a bit some paralysis hit me, It was very strange, and had a dreamy feel to it, but at this point I was just focused on normalizing my breathing, I had no idea what to do and the paralysis wore off.

After doing my bathroom routine for my short WBTB, I laid down on my back. After a while, There were some flashing lights on my black behind my eyelids, and I felt some vibrations, normalized my breathing quickly, didn't really know what to do at this point, so I started visualizing the scene I wanted to be in, after a while the "Dream-like effect" I felt wore off and I got up.

The next attempt was nearly the same, but when I had the dream-like effect, I tried to will my arm up to do the nose plug reality check, when I say will it, I don't mean physically. More like an act of dream control, you think it and it happens. Unfortunately, this didn't work so I went back to the visualizing, nothing again.

Interesting attempts, EmptyBucket; you may be close indeed!

I'm sure you've heard this from me before, but try to keep the importance of the noise to a minimum. Don't worry about the "paralysis," the vibrations, the flashy lights; in fact, don't worry about anything, especially what you should be doing during a noisy event. Instead, keep your mind and your mantra focused on the dream, letting all the noise serve as passing landmarks rather than guiding forces.

Also, you might hold off on trying to do RC's or moving your body parts at all -- aetherically or not -- until you're pretty sure you've already entered a dream. Doing so before hand never works well, is distracting, and may tend to wake you up.

I feel like I'm making it somewhere but navigating it blindly

That's not a bad way to feel, in LD-land; this activity is undiscovered country for all of us, even me, so blind navigation is par for the course! Don't be concerned about the stumbling, as long as you keep tripping in a forward sort of motion.

Here, though, is an attitude from which to try very hard to steer very clear:

when I get to that feel of "Oh my god, I think my wild attempt is kicking off", I'm not sure what to do when I get to this point. Like, I feel like I should focus on the dream(visualize) or on my mantra. But then that effect wears off and it feels like I need to be doing something on my end, sort of like my body provides the opportunity and I need to catapult myself into the dream.

Though the thought is hard to avoid, try not to ever feel like, "Oh my god, I think my wild attempt is kicking off." Instead, be confident that your WILD attempt has been kicking off since you decided to make it hours or days before. That way there will be no (imagined) effect to wear off or some special point of transition that can be missed (there isn't one). Above all, never intellectualize the process: try not to feel like you have to do something on your end -- it's all your end. There is no catapulting, no special trigger moments, no noise-related incremental steps toward the dream... there is just You, waiting patiently with dream in hand and mantra on the mind for your body to sleep and the dream to begin. Read too much into the process of WILD and the process of WILD will indeed serve to be too much.

A few WILD attempts over the last few weeks, I'm not getting enough W in my WBTBs, I'm falling asleep unconsciously. I need to let go of my concerns about taking a long time to get back to sleep if I wake up too much. Need to get to bed earlier regularly so that the 5+ hour mark is still quiet, traffic noise starts up around 7-8 so I should move bedtime to 11-12.

edit: RRC work continues, I now have a holistic (RC + RRC) "LD ritual" that I repeat as many times during the day as I can remember to do(although not more than about 3 times per hour per Sageous's recommendation:

+ I repeat "I'm dreaming" to myself or say out loud about 16 times rhythmically,
+ followed by saying "do a reality check" where I do nose plug, check hands, close each eye to see nose,
+ say "past/present/future" and examine my current location and situation to determine if it is dream/waking, imagine where I was earlier in the day and what I was doing / who & how I was interacting with, imagine where I'll be later on in the day, who & how I'll be interacting with
+ say "I exist!", feel wonder, and say/imagine that everybody and everyone around affects me and I affect everyone/everything. Feel like I'm flexing my "sentience muscle" while doing this.

p.s. had DILD #5 two nights ago. No running / instinctive actions, instead a calm measured examination of environment, running hands over ground and railings feeling textures, conscious self-restraint to avoid getting caught in up female interactions , examined dream hands for first time in LD, they were bizarre, spent most of the rest of the time reexamining my freakish dream hands. Generally a low level of lucidity but did have enough memory turned on to remember that I didn't want to get swept up in events and I wanted to prolong the experience. Fascinated again by the lighting and how the people were bright and clear.

WILD attempt last night: woke at 4 hrs 45 mins after bedtime, journaled recalled dreams. Felt fairly groggy. Proper WBTB for ~30 minutes, got up, sat in dark, ran through the states in alphabetical order mentally. Back to bed at 5 hrs 10 mins, very awake/alert. Spent about 30 minutes imagining dream scenario, then started in with mantra "I'm dreaming" trying to fall asleep. Couldn't fall back to sleep. Tried multiple positions (back/both sides). Tried counting down from 100, with visualizing numbers in sand erased by wave. Tried just counting with no visualization. At one point after several hours, started losing track of the count. But still couldn't get to sleep. Got up at 7 hrs 35 mins.

Was the "imagining dream scenario" for 30 minutes a mistake? Should that be done during the day before the WILD?

Clearly 30 minutes is way too much W in WBTB for WILDs at least for me. Next time I'll try shorter and with a less mentally demanding activity, more passive like reading perhaps.

No household distractions, should have been the perfect time.

^^ I think it might not be the 30 minutes of "W," FryingMan, but what you did in that 30 minutes.

Though at first glance I was impressed that you recited the states in alphabetical order, even before I got to the part where you couldn't get back to sleep I had already said to myself, "Damn, a task that complex seems a very risky thing to do during WBTB, because it might just fire up the brain too much." During that 30 minutes, you might consider easing up on your brain activity a bit. If you must occupy your time with thoughts, try daydreaming about your current dream goals, or where you think you'll be in an hour. In other words, relax and think dreamy thoughts, don't press your brain into action, thus risking that it fires up the reticular system and ends your night's sleep. So yes, choosing less mentally-demanding activity is a good thing, but the 30 minutes might still be okay (it wasn't the "W's" fault this time).

Here's another, slightly dislocated thought: I notice that you know exactly when you woke up, exactly how long you stayed up, and exactly how long your WILD attempt was. Such precision can become a distraction too; you might want to approach all this a bit more casually. By your last post you seem to be on the right path for getting the hang of this WILD thing, and being more relaxed and "big picture" oriented; there's no sense gumming up the works with too much attention to detail.

Also, keep in mind that as the DILD's continue, WILD's will likely come more easily. The experience of being there, and the commensurate mental prep that that includes, will help keep you in the right place during WILD attempts -- but it will mean nothing if you keep your brain in high gear at the same time!

Thanks Sageous, that all makes sense. As for knowing the times, I don't really know it while I'm doing it so precisely, I use a voice recorder app that automatically timestamps the entries, and once in a while if not really sleepy for a long time I'll check the time and do a quick "still awake" or "giving up getting up now" entry if it's been too long. When I go back and review the voice journal entries later in the day I do the math subtracting the bedtime to come up with the times. I only do those entries if I feel it's been a long time being very awake, if I feel any progress towards sleep in a WILD I don't do distracting things like making even quick journal notes.

The point of recording the info is for future fine tuning -- trying to figure out how long of a WBTB is optimal, etc. Ideally I'd just note the time I get up and the time I get back to bed to start the WILD, and then the rest of the journal is filled with the awesome WILD dream itself

BTW I doubt I did the states entirely correctly (the count was somewhat close to 50 ), but I was certainly *trying hard*, and that seems to have been the problem.

^^ Oh, that makes more sense, and seems to fit more with your improving handle on all this.

Ah! So close so close so close... Slept 8.5 hours today, not surprising after last night's early waking, at first I thought I had no recall but then memories came in from the night from multiple scenes and did quick journal. Woke once or twice during the night but just too tired to journal.

Decided I still felt sleepy enough to try for a WILD again. Spent about an hour trying to sleep, with mantra going ("I'm dreaming" mostly) with visualization of desired scene. It was a fun scene so didn't really feel the time going by . Probably the wrong thing to do (visualizing the scene and playing with it)? Felt like I was trying to "make it happen" by holding the scene in my mind. At one point I did get some body hallucinations: like I was swinging. I could change the feeling from front/back swinging to side-to-side swinging like on a huge hammock. I know, I know, "don't fiddle with the noise, sonny." . I was on my back for all this, not my usual sleeping position.

Didn't feel like I was making progress, so I rolled over to side (usual sleeping position), and decided just to "let it happen" instead of trying to "make it happen," let go of visualisations, did my usual "go to sleep/dream" relaxing/releasing of mind/thoughts, but kept "I'm dreaming" mantra. And pretty soon my breathing became a bit shaky and laboured, my heart rate went up a bit, and my mind entered a feeling just like how lucidity feels in a DILD, yet I was totally aware as it occurred! Tried to stay relaxed and kept mantra going. Strong feeling of excitement/anticipation. But I didn't see anything except the back of my eyelids. I thought "where's the dream?" Feeling subsided a bit, and I found I could "push" back towards it a little.

Didn't make it in but that's the closest I've ever been....but jeez after an hour of visualization, no dream images waiting for me!?

Anyway, "Let it happen" seems to be the key, which is I believe just what Sageous is teaching . Also I think it's not a bad mantra...

The experience gives me confidence that I can in fact WILD! Just have to hold on to the patience longer and let the dream form...

^^ So close indeed!

From what you wrote, it could be that you actually succeeded, but were too far along in your sleep cycle and there might not have been any "usable" REM (and dreaming-mind input) to sync up with, leaving you to exam little more than the backs of your eyelids in a near-waking state. Still, the rest of the experience had some real value, right?

But you were there, I think. And yes, "let it happen" is a key attitude, and a pretty good mantra, too (as long as you don't forget what the "it" is that's supposed to happen!).

Nice work; thanks for sharing!

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ So close indeed!

From what you wrote, it could be that you actually succeeded, but were too far along in your sleep cycle and there might not have been any "usable" REM (and dreaming-mind input) to sync up with, leaving you to exam little more than the backs of your eyelids in a near-waking state. Still, the rest of the experience had some real value, right?

But you were there, I think. And yes, "let it happen" is a key attitude, and a pretty good mantra, too (as long as you don't forget what the "it" is that's supposed to happen!).

Nice work; thanks for sharing!

Thanks! Yes I really felt like I was there, as much as I can know without experiencing a dream along with it, but it had that right "feel" to it, with my experience so far with DILDs. Can you expand a bit on "usable REM?" I have slept upwards of 10 or 11 hours and still experienced normal dreams, likewise with naps and normal dreams, on more than one occasion, so I haven't yet experienced any "no more dreamable REM left" (until now?) . Is there REM that's usable for normal dreams but not WILDs?

edit: oh yes, very very valuable experience, I totally believe it would have been a full WILD had I either held on a bit longer, or been earlier in the sleep cycle. I've been grinning all day just like after a full LD the experience was really awesome. I think I'm just a few more tries away....

And if I could even venture a guess, I'd say that thanks to all the self-awareness exercises (RRCs), it was really obvious when the transition occurred, since the dream state has a distinct "flavor", quite different from the feeling of the awake state...is noticing that difference one of the key points of the self-awareness work?

^^ "Usable REM" is not a technical term by any stretch, but rather a casual note on my part that your night's sleep might be over, and your body has already begun the process of physically waking you up -- even if, paradoxically, you've just fallen back to sleep due a specific, naturally contrary, effort on your part.

So the mechanisms for REM -- and delta, for that matter -- are simply not functioning in spite of your body's state of rest. I think this can happen after any length of sleep, as your sleep cycles and the stuff that ends them are not on a precise schedule. So it's not a surprise that you've slept "properly" for far longer than eight hours, yet also not a surprise that this time your body may have thought your night's sleep was through. This is why it's a good idea to do WBTB after just 5 hours or so, because (among other things) by doing so you reduce the chance of confusing your body into thinking it's time to be up.

As an aside, I think that those who practice meditation take advantage of this reluctance of the body to return to sleep mode, because it allows them the rest and perspective of sleep without ever losing physical consciousness.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

And if I could even venture a guess, I'd say that thanks to all the self-awareness exercises (RRCs), it was really obvious when the transition occurred, since the dream state has a distinct "flavor", quite different from the feeling of the awake state...is noticing that difference one of the key points of the self-awareness work?

Yes indeedy! On top of that, regular RRC work ought to make this recognition a natural event.

So last night I woke up about 5 hours after my regular sleep time, started my WBTB for 25 minutes, but instead of actually getting up and walking around, I decided to lay on my back for about 20 minutes because I can't sleep well on my back anyway, and for the last 5 minutes I went to the bathroom, got water, then returned.

I laid down on my right side and did some SSILD cycles(Which always seem to help somehow), after which I lied there for about 10 minutes before that black in my eyelids started swirling into the scene and I woke up in a dream bed!

The transition was so quick, I was surprised when I got in. Anyway, this has kind of made me realize how pointless the noise actually is, it didn't seem to even appear much and I kind of just ended up in the dream, no need for any noise.

I figure now is probably a good time to thank you for all the insight you have offered me on my path to a WILD, Sageous, it has truly helped me learn and develop my LDing skills.

More to come I hope!

^^ Great work, EmptyBucket!

I hope it's all downhill fro here...

Congrats EmptyBucket! That's great.

Well I've had two more attempts since the exciting night three nights ago, both times I couldn't get back to sleep. Both attempts at about 5 hours (two nights ago, 4.5, last night, 5.5). Felt quite groggy last night thought about sitting up for a while but after two nights ago's not sleeping I wanted to try the WILD immediately after journaling and bathroom. Kind of surprising, I got exercise both days, and felt tired. Repeating the mantra ("I'm dreaming....let it happen...") is somehow stimulating. I'm considering either spreading out the mantra to be every few breaths instead of every breath, or trying to get partially to sleep before starting the mantra, hopefully "catching" myself.

Toying with the idea of trying a minuscule amount of melatonin (I know it's a REM suppressor but perhaps in very small amounts like < 1mg perhaps it can help get me to sleep without the REM blocking?) or valerian at the 5 hour waking.

If I can just beat this wakefulness thing I really think I'll be WILDing away any day now.

So - this morning I had my second "earnest" WILD try.

On two other days, when I had woken up earlier in between dreams, and chances should have been better - I was too lazy and not really motivated and just went on sleeping.

One week ago, on my first try - see spoiler - it had seemed so surprisingly easy to get to "see the door".
I was pretty convinced it would be really easy to go along this way and unfortunately did let my DILD intentions slip a bit ..rolleyes.gif

Spoiler for 04.11.13:

Originally Posted by StephL

.. 04.11.13:
My update: one more moment of lucidity in one of two dreams I can recall well - but have them only on paper - too private.
Again - I looked at my hands - they were there instantly - I did not get them past blurry and blue - light blue.
Everything else was only greyness - and I forgot, if it was followed by a short wakening or direct re-entry in the dream - about showing somebody a DV-like forum and it´s special effects - lol - 3D!

After waking once more - I went for WILD.
Laying there - expecting my visualization skills providing my with something - it was my body-sensibility that blew my mind - initially.
I know it´s not about them - but "bells and whistles" was something completely new on my experience range.

First around my mouth - then head - then diverging towards all body - fist only slightly like - a cat purring? - but it went up to quite a lot of Bsssssssss!!!
So fascinating!

Towards the end of it - I saw a mandala-structure in electric blue on the back of my eyelids - bit behind them it seemed - me looking outside into black with it hovering - theoretically in my room.
Very beautiful - a cross but like the red cross with some stuff missing towards the middle and round patterns overlayed and inlayed.

This makes me really confident and this forum was a speedway I got to say - towards the door at least for now!
Been looking for the door a while..

Attachment 5800

Today I was actually feeling, I had gotten enough sleep and it might be too late, when I woke up - so I only left bed shortly and took half a pill of Melatonin (should have been 1.5 mg) on a whim of the moment.
Lay on my back - I never fall asleep like this, and I have read, that sleep is lighter in a more exposed position.
Ear-plugs and a mask and some fidgeting, till I felt comfortable and it was very easy to keep still.

I told myself to stay awake and conscious but enter the dream, I had before.
And conjured up scenes from that dream in my imagination.
Several times I got off track and started thinking about something completely different, but I came back quite easily.

Now funnily - I got what I had told myself - but not how I had meant it..rolleyes.gif
I sure wasn´t awake in what followed, but not really dreaming, too.
More like revisiting and thinking about the dream, and what it might mean, and partly I also entered it, and changed little things.
Sort of like having written a story and revisiting it.

The whole thing was in a way self-reflective - and I knew I was "analysing" a dream.
But it was rather dreaming of lying still and analysing that dream.
Hard to describe.

Maybe a false not falling asleep?
I was convinced, I had just been lying there awake, and tucking at this and that loose end from the dream in my wakeful imagination.
But then later I did definitively wake up from this state.

Goes to show maybe, that it is really not a good idea to wait for HH/HI as indicators..
Delicate territory - figuring out, what state of mind I am in..

Originally Posted by StephL

More like revisiting and thinking about the dream, and what it might mean, and partly I also entered it, and changed little things.
Sort of like having written a story and revisiting it.

I know exactly what you're talking about. This happens to me when recalling dreams when sleepy -- I'll catch myself inventing variations instead of just recalling what happened the first time.