Thread: ADA: Right or Wrong for Lucidity?

yeah I was gunna mention that, that maybe most of this is really just a matter of intention. Our subconscious knows why we are doing whatever practice were doing (to have LD's), and by being consistent with the practice were telling the sub that LDing is important to us, so it obliges.

edit: actually I duhno, first lucid I ever had came a couple weeks into vipassana meditation practice, and I was not intending to lucid dream at all, didn't even know it was possible.

Just wondering if anyone on this thread has read Arnold Mindell's 'Dreaming while awake: techniques for 24-hour lucid dreaming.'

I recently ordered it and am waiting with bated breath. Hopefully with good reason.

ADA is NOT an intention technique. You don't have to believe it will work to build up the ability to distinguish between the two states (dream and reality). They are different. They aren't the same. Your brain is capable of realizing this. Its almost like building up an instinct to knowing you are in a dream. The skill begins to feel instinctive.

Of course, using intentions is a basic practice to enhance any technique. So, its recommended to use your intentions to lucid dream at all times.

Originally Posted by VagalTone

ADA is important but it´s not enough. If you also practice critical questioning/ RC then it is a wonderful combo.

So ADA+critical questioning is a synergistic interaction. ADA will help you remember to test your state while awake, help with vividness and recall while asleep.

Also, ADA may build intentionality ( but that´s not a ADA specific mechanism ). So, to practice ADA alone is, IMO, mainly an intention technique, which will only be helpful if you think so.

I agree and that is why critical questioning of reality is written into the ADA guide. Its a part of it. Excerpt:

"Prior to performing your RC, take a moment to become aware of your surroundings. Even if you know that you are awake, pretend that everything around you is actually a dream. Finally, perform your RC and see if you are actually dreaming. A quality RC is a RC in which you question your reality."

I understand what some of you mean by a feeling or knowing that makes you lucid, with out anything appearing out of place or doing an RC. I may argue though that the very clear difference between being awake and in a dream, is an anomily that is noticed causing lucidity. In that sense it is not a spontaneous LD. True you did not see your cat become a rabbit, and you did not pass you hands through each other, but something was different and you became aware of it,,, became lucid because of it.

I do completely understand that awareness training does not relie on spotting obvious oddities. It often is just that your awareness is now so keen, that it becomes a bit obvious that a dream is a dream.

Does ADA work by giving dreams better continuity? NL dreams are often all over the place, just like our thoughts in waking life much of the time.

Originally Posted by Bobblehat

Does ADA work by giving dreams better continuity? NL dreams are often all over the place, just like our thoughts in waking life much of the time.

No, ADA helps you realize that continuity of events in waking life is an illusion, a construct of our not paying enough attention and then fooling ourselves into believing in continuity of events based on an edited version of events created by our Swiss cheese memory and cognitive biases and strong desire for continuity superimposed on a reality in which there is much less continuity than we like to claim there is.

Edit: in other words, none of our states of being, neither waking nor dreaming, neither thought nor perceived, none of them is really continuous, so let's not expect continuity. We want waking reality to be continuous, so if we do not live in the moment, we create edited versions of memories that are as continuous as we want them to be. Come to think of it, that is much like dream recall after the fact.

I think the so-called Critical Questions are a good way to approach ADA.
These kinds of questions are "where am I now?", "why am I here?", "what exactly am I doing right now? Why? What is this place?" etc.
Basically, my definition of ADA is that you try to be as aware as possible of yourself.
I believe this is the only thing you really need to practice in order to become lucid - if you become aware of your own dream body and your own existence then you will naturally start paying attention to the dreamworld as well and examine things, which will lead to lucidity.

That's right. I can't tell you how many of my "non-lucid dreams" I realize to actually be low level lucid dreams when I am writing in my journal. I am very often aware that I am dreaming for whatever reason, but don't really become fully aware until I start examining myself and my place in the dream.

I think all awareness can help, but self awareness seems to be the most effective form for me.

^^ Well, I guess I can't help but agree with those last two posts!

In terms of lucidity, I think the most important thing is the critical and reflective aspect of awareness and not so much whether you direct it to yourself or your environment. But i may be wrong, as in fact the most stable and the only ever-present* element of waking and dream world may be our sense of self and body image (* if you don´t become a drop of rain or something )

In terms of our daily life, self awareness ( not to be confounded with self consciousness or extreme self worry ) is a major psychological feature, so it´s worth cultivating.

Conclusion: self awareness may be key to both wake and dream state.

It also feels quite beautiful to practice ADA and maintain your self-awareness, it makes real life feel a lot more surrealistic and magical.
Probably because you have the same attitude to your surroundings as you have during lucid dreams.

Originally Posted by Laurelindo

It also feels quite beautiful to practice ADA and maintain your self-awareness, it makes real life feel a lot more surrealistic and magical.
Probably because you have the same attitude to your surroundings as you have during lucid dreams.

Yes, and that's exactly the reason why I don't do awareness techs all day; I like my times of heightened awareness during the day to be special times.

Been awhile since I've been on this forum (internet troubles) but heres my take. Awareness by its self is useless, it simply helps you get more vivid dreams, you must harness this awareness so that you can realize you are dreaming. This is where critical questioning comes into play. Awareness + critical questioning = lucidity. Critical questioning without the awareness to back it up results with you saying "am i dreaming" and not even becoming lucid because you do it like any other "mindless" habit.

Originally Posted by Daredevilpwn

Been awhile since I've been on this forum (internet troubles) but heres my take. Awareness by its self is useless, it simply helps you get more vivid dreams, you must harness this awareness so that you can realize you are dreaming. This is where critical questioning comes into play. Awareness + critical questioning = lucidity. Critical questioning without the awareness to back it up results with you saying "am i dreaming" and not even becoming lucid because you do it like any other "mindless" habit.

I had an experience like that last night, when I had screwed up royally at some kind of job (forgot equipment after driving several miles, lost the car keys on my way back etc) and I actually stood still for a very long time (several minutes) and wished for myself that everything could just be a dream and that I could wake up from all that mess.
And I even lost hope and accepted that it was reality "because it felt so real", and I had to deal with my situation the best I could.

And suddenly I was lying in bed.

Originally Posted by Daredevilpwn

Awareness + critical questioning = lucidity.

Yup, i agree, specially for DILD. The challenge is to integrate the two and find a comfortable and meaningful approach, otherwise you will get tired.

Whoever choses this approach deserves my utmost respect and admiration

Originally Posted by Laurelindo

I had an experience like that last night, when I had screwed up royally at some kind of job (forgot equipment after driving several miles, lost the car keys on my way back etc) and I actually stood still for a very long time (several minutes) and wished for myself that everything could just be a dream and that I could wake up from all that mess.
And I even lost hope and accepted that it was reality "because it felt so real", and I had to deal with my situation the best I could.

And suddenly I was lying in bed.

I had similar experiences. And I am starting to experience first hand what it feels like. Just before I get lucid but have a high awareness to remember how I am feeling. I am absolutely convinced that whatever I am experiencing is real until I decide to confirm I am dreaming with a reality check. It still boggles me how I totally believe this dream is waking life until I do a reality check. I think Sageous is correct when he said that ADA makes the dreamer believes his dreams are real, because it truly does because we experience more detail. And in this instance, yes ADA is bad, but combine ADA with critical questioning and then you got something going on for you when it comes to attaining lucidity.

When I was just doing ADA (no questioning) with some sensory awareness meditation for dream yoga, I noticed my dreams were more vivid but not exactly lucid. When I then decided to combine questioning with it, I noticed I also just "know" I am dreaming sometimes.

So to answer the OP. My answer is Yes and no. No because ADA by its self is only half of the equation and doesn't result in lucids. And yes because when combined with critical questioning it becomes a powerful tool.

In my opinion, ADA practices awareness of around you, but in order to LD you need what I call:
General Dream Awareness
This is basic recall, simple control of your dream, the ability to think in your dreams.

State awareness
A basic way of differentiate between waking and sleeping.

So ADA doesn't address the first one, and the second one only works if the All Day Awareness is bein aware of the state, like hukif's gravity RC that at all times asks himself the question "dream?"

It is what Waggoner calls a "critical question" that naturals develop. The question is always in their mind and always answered at all times, so they know if it is a dream or not, normally to protect against nightmares.

What an interesting (and old) topic. I hope you still find answers to it relevant. Here's my take.

I don't know if ADA works, but my feeling is that it does. I have started actively working on LD for 3 months and my frequency of lucid dreams has been growing significantly. I can't say that it's because of ADA, but I can say for sure that it makes 100% sense to me that increasing your presence and attention to sense objects will definitely pour into the dream state, resulting in an increased awareness in the dream and as a result better recall. My hunch and feeling so far is that better awareness in the dream along with better recall (they are kind of the same thing in my opinion!) are the road to have more frequent lucid dreams.

I tend to doubt the part about self-awareness. I have been practicing Vipassana (Goenka) for over 2 years and meditation in various other forms for much longer than that and it has served me nothing in the dream state. I am almost constantly aware of my feelings and sensations in the body. It doesn't help much with identifying the dream state. On the contrary, it encourages one to put less importance on the sense objects and more on the inner world.

One interesting thing to ask is: what is self awareness? Why do you consider it only sensations and feelings? Senses are also part of the self? Are the result of senses not also in the mind? Is the mind not considered a sense itself? These are interesting things to consider.

I am still learning, and none of the above are hard statements or beliefs, just my thoughts at the current time. I have only read the OP and none of the replies when I wrote this.

I think the difference you are highlighting between awareness and self-awareness is nothing more than being aware of the fact that the world we perceive is influenced by our own perception, and is not, in terms of ultimate reality, as perceived. As long as you are observing everything around you as a dream (in terms of Tibetan Yoga) or as your own mind (in terms of whatever) I think it's the right way to do it. But you're making a good point underlining this.

I would not draw a line between the two. Instead, I would focus more on explaining "the right way" to ADA. Self-awareness can also have the opposite to the negative effect you describe, and that is: ignoring your surroundings at the expense of being aware only of your inner world (feelings, sensations, thoughts). That will also not lead to lucidity.

^^ Old topic, maybe, but I'm still around, so:

That's an interesting take, Gbbr, and actually I agree with most of it. If you have time to read on into the thread, and try to ignore the, um, lesser moments in my conversation with King Yoshi, I think you might -- if I remember properly -- find the discussion more enlightening than my limited OP.

But I must take issue with one thing you said:

Originally Posted by gbbr

One interesting thing to ask is: what is self awareness? Why do you consider it only sensations and feelings? Senses are also part of the self? Are the result of senses not also in the mind? Is the mind not considered a sense itself? These are interesting things to consider.

I'm not sure how you came to this interpretation of my OP here. Why? Because I never, even once, said that self-awareness, from my perspective, is about considering only sensations and feelings. Since my definition of self-awareness is pretty short, here again are the paragraphs about it in this thread's OP, with the definition itself in bold:

Self-awareness is nothing more -- or less -- than being aware that you are here, that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you. Self-awareness is the sense that “I am here, and I am interacting with reality” which is also the sense you want to have during a dream. In other words, it is the most “unnatural” state of consciousness, in that we only invented sentience a short time ago, evolutionarily-speaking.

Mastering self-awareness allows a dreamer to know that the universe she is in is a dream, and that universe is of her own making, a part of her consciousness... fairly important things to know for successful LD'ing, I think!

That's it, really. As you can see there's nothing there about looking inward and focusing on sensations or feelings, or on anything in particular. It is only about acknowledgement of your own presence, and your interaction with reality (two things that ADA as presented back then ignored, BTW).

I think the difference you are highlighting between awareness and self-awareness is nothing more than being aware of the fact that the world we perceive is influenced by our own perception, and is not, in terms of ultimate reality, as perceived. As long as you are observing everything around you as a dream (in terms of Tibetan Yoga) or as your own mind (in terms of whatever) I think it's the right way to do it. But you're making a good point underlining this.

Well no, not really. I wasn't referring to "the fact that the world we perceive is influenced by our own perception, and is not, in terms of ultimate reality, as perceived." That wasn't what I meant at all; that kind of depth is not necessary here, I think.

Also, I have never been a proponent of observing everything around you as a dream during waking-life, because that is something that I cannot see being done with any sincerity; reality is reality, unavoidably (sorry Tibetans!). Quite the contrary: If your self-awareness is strong, and you bring it into a dream, then you will immediately know you are dreaming because the nature of your interaction with reality has changed dramatically. In other words, a self-aware person will know that his presence spans the entire dream, that he is the dream, and the first way he'll notice this is because the nature of the reality with which he is interacting is not that of his waking-life.

I would not draw a line between the two. Instead, I would focus more on explaining "the right way" to ADA. Self-awareness can also have the opposite to the negative effect you describe, and that is: ignoring your surroundings at the expense of being aware only of your inner world (feelings, sensations, thoughts). That will also not lead to lucidity.

Again, and perhaps belaboring the point by now, I never said, even once, to ignore your surroundings and only being aware of your inner world. Yes indeed, just doing that would run counter to lucidity by any measure -- but it is not what I recommended, or included in my descriptions.

I do hope you might read on in the thread; I think you might find that we are in stronger agreement than you currently feel, and I also think you will come to understand my problems with ADA (plus you'll see that we eventually did discuss, extensively, I think, the "right way" to practice ADA).

Originally Posted by Sageous

reality is reality, unavoidably (sorry Tibetans!).

I got a chuckle out of that. I, too, have struggled with the basic concept of seeing waking life as a dream......even as I feel as though I have benefited from pondering the concept a lot. The more I ponder it, the more it makes sense on some levels.

I address this in my mind by thinking about how each of us is constantly creating our perception of that reality through our own personal cognitive reality. I think we all see things from a very personal perspective. I mean, if you and I, Sageous, were standing here in my office I think our perception of the surroundings would be different in subtle (or even not so subtle) ways. Its a bit like how two people standing and looking at a rainbow are each seeing a different rainbow due to the physics of the whole thing.

And speaking of physics, I also sometimes try to correlate this concept with the fact that in quantum physics it has been proven that measurement determines reality. That is, a particle does not exist in a certain state until it is observed in that state. Yeah....I guess that may be kind of a stretch, but its another interesting way to make sense of this question. Either way, I don't take the whole "everything is a dream" thing too literally. It really does help me, though, in my quest to establish that unbroken continuity of consciousness between awake and a'dream.

Originally Posted by gbbr

what is self awareness?

What is helping me of late is to equate self awareness to "body awareness". I feel as though when I am completely concentrating on my body; folding all of my senses inward if you will, I am tuning everything else completely out....so I am completely in that moment only. I do this during the day a lot and then at night as I prepare for sleep. Once again, if I can take the unbroken continuity of that awareness into the dream it helps me separate myself from the reality of the dream.

My dreams tend to be incredibly real. Sometimes when I am verging on true lucidity I stop and and gaze around in amazement at the reality of the scene and lucidity is left hanging out there in the balance. At times like these, my awareness of self connects me back to my body and lucidity once again blooms.

I have this mantra that I do a lot during the day:

The body connects to the moment
The moment connects to pure presence
Which is fueled by non-dual awareness
That's born from pure perception.

That is, of course, unabashedly ripped off from the Tibetan Dream Yoga stuff. My ADA protocol pretty much boils down to that these days and it is helping me a lot.

I have spent some time on this excellent thread....think I'll spend a bit more.

Originally Posted by lenscaper

I address this in my mind by thinking about how each of us is constantly creating our perception of that reality through our own personal cognitive reality. I think we all see things from a very personal perspective. I mean, if you and I, Sageous, were standing here in my office I think our perception of the surroundings would be different in subtle (or even not so subtle) ways. Its a bit like how two people standing and looking at a rainbow are each seeing a different rainbow due to the physics of the whole thing.

And speaking of physics, I also sometimes try to correlate this concept with the fact that in quantum physics it has been proven that measurement determines reality. That is, a particle does not exist in a certain state until it is observed in that state. Yeah....I guess that may be kind of a stretch, but its another interesting way to make sense of this question. Either way, I don't take the whole "everything is a dream" thing too literally. It really does help me, though, in my quest to establish that unbroken continuity of consciousness between awake and a'dream.

And yet, in both cases, reality is still reality, regardless of how differently two people may (and do) perceive it. And don't get me started on my opinion of translating logistical quirks in quantum physics experiments into observations done in full-scale waking-life reality. Yes, a subatomic particle's/wave's state is defined when it is observed, but to me that does not -- and should not -- translate to larger objects because, well, it doesn't.

Also:

What is helping me of late is to equate self awareness to "body awareness". I feel as though when I am completely concentrating on my body; folding all of my senses inward if you will, I am tuning everything else completely out....so I am completely in that moment only. I do this during the day a lot and then at night as I prepare for sleep. Once again, if I can take the unbroken continuity of that awareness into the dream it helps me separate myself from the reality of the dream.

You might consider being wary of doing this, with regard to LD'ing, especially as your skills improve. Creating a system of duality in a dream (which is basically what it seems you are doing) may prevent you from fully realizing that the entire dream is you, with no separations, and not realizing that might prevent you from fully exploring the nature and potentials of your dreams. I recommend that you pay attention to your mantra, and allow that non-dual awareness to develop and blossom in your dreams.

Also, and very much my own opinion, I've found that the "inward gazing" of many meditational practices tends to run anathema to successful LD'ing. It might work great in waking-life, but in a dream, separating your self, especially in the form of your DC-self, from the greater whole of your dream, seems to not be a great idea. After all, the dream is you, why make all that wonder something other than you? This, BTW, is the part that was nearly on-topic, because that separation is one of the problems I have with ADA.

My dreams tend to be incredibly real. Sometimes when I am verging on true lucidity I stop and and gaze around in amazement at the reality of the scene and lucidity is left hanging out there in the balance. At times like these, my awareness of self connects me back to my body and lucidity once again blooms.

Except that there is no body in dreams, only a DC body that you may or may not be occupying at the time. Connecting with that, and coming to use it as a primary tool, could lead you to a place where lucidity depends on a separation of your self from the dream, which might hold back your growth and lead, possibly, to false lucids about regrouping in your DC body. This same warning holds if it is your physical body you are connecting to, BTW (just remembering your sleeping body is enough, I think; no need to retreat to it).

Also, as an aside: There is a reason dreams tend to seem incredibly real which has nothing to do with lucidity: the imagery you are seeing in a dream is created without having to move first through the filters of your physical perception, so they have an opportunity to be quite pure. The imagery is probably just as clear in NLD's, but the reason they seem so much more clear during LD's is because in NLD's, you really don't care because that's the way it's supposed to be, but when lucid you're consciously witnessing the precision. Instead of separating, why not be amazed that such imagery exists in your imagination, and that this beauty is a part of you?

Well, this is a bit nostalgic...

For me, self-awareness is all about context and relevance. I seem to remember some years ago Sageous saying something about how he always, or at least very often, has a certain awareness that he is dreaming even though he may not be lucid at the time. This struck me then because I have the same experience, and it never fades, whether I am actively practicing during the day or not. It has been this way long enough for me to observe over time the points at which this awareness becomes apparent in the dream, and it always involves relevance and context; that is, it is relevant to myself and how I interact with the world.

Originally Posted by Sageous

If your self-awareness is strong, and you bring it into a dream, then you will immediately know you are dreaming because the nature of your interaction with reality has changed dramatically.

This is exactly what I mean.

Understand as well, I used to practice all sorts of "types" of awareness during the day. In the end I wouldn't say most of it was useless or ineffective, just that most of it was probably superfluous, or less effective as far as becoming lucid is concerned. When I came to this forum and read some of Sageous's posts on awareness, it confirmed what I was only beginning to suspect; that all of the practices I was doing in context were probably the most useful. Since then I have been able to observe this enough to be fairly certain.

None of this is to say that other, whether environmental or inward, practices of awareness did not have uses for other aspects such as control. Having better control over your mind/attention is always helpful.

Originally Posted by Sageous

And don't get me started on my opinion of translating logistical quirks in quantum physics experiments into observations done in full-scale waking-life reality. Yes, a subatomic particle's/wave's state is defined when it is observed, but to me that does not -- and should not -- translate to larger objects because, well, it doesn't.

You'll have to forgive these random musings of mine.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Creating a system of duality in a dream (which is basically what it seems you are doing) may prevent you from fully realizing that the entire dream is you, with no separations, and not realizing that might prevent you from fully exploring the nature and potentials of your dreams.

I appreciate that insight. I am fully inhabiting my dreams these days. Whatever I have been doing has been working in my dreams........and is translating into my waking life as well. I have never felt so...non-dual. It is ...quite refreshing.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I'm not sure how you came to this interpretation of my OP here.

I wrote the response in a hasty way. I wasn't meaning to contradict what you said. I did understand what you mean. I think my main idea here is that any of these techniques (self-awareness, environment awareness, mindfulness) come down to the very interpretation of the reader and they don't have to be mutually exclusive, and that each one of them can be practiced the wrong way if you end up excluding any part of your experience.

Originally Posted by lenscaper

What is helping me of late is to equate self awareness to "body awareness". I feel as though when I am completely concentrating on my body; folding all of my senses inward if you will, I am tuning everything else completely out....so I am completely in that moment only. I do this during the day a lot and then at night as I prepare for sleep. Once again, if I can take the unbroken continuity of that awareness into the dream it helps me separate myself from the reality of the dream.

Self-awareness can be interpreted as being aware only of the framework of your body, excluding the environment. I have practiced this for a very long time (through Vipassana) and I'm not convinced it brought me any benefit other than potentially making me more aware of my reactions, which isn't necessarily bad. In theory it sounds good, but for me I found that less so in practice. My reasoning was similar to what you describe: since my feelings and sensations represent my nearest reaction to my environment, they are best connected to the present moment and are the absolute sum and result of it, thus, there is no need to pay attention to anything else. In a sense, it's believable and nice, but requires focusing on just one thing, while ignoring the rest, offering a very biased view.

Awareness (what is generally on this forum called ADA) can be interpreted as paying attention to only the environment, which is the opposite of the above and makes you neglect your own presence and exclude the most important part of it, YOU.

I think the truth, and what I plan to try out now, is a type of awareness which includes both and excludes none. I think this is what Sageous is pointing at. Technically, I made it a goal to experiment for two months with Sageous's version of being aware, and that is: simply knowing you are here, in the environment. I've done it before, for a very brief time and noticed incredible shifts in behaviour and perspective. As for how much it helps with lucid dreaming, we'll see. Thank you for your reply. This is a topic that interests me greatly and for a long time I thought that being aware means focusing on something (breath, sensations, body, etc), which made it incredibly difficult to maintain awareness when something else required focus (work, computer, conversation, etc). The way you put it: simply knowing, and not focusing on something, is very interesting and is something I want to play around with.

I am very interested in exploring this topic further and discovering together where misunderstandings lie in the guides, improving them based on our discoveries so that more people can better understand them and benefit from them. I will reply here by the end of the two months, or occasionally during them to update you on how maintaining this knowing of myself within my environment is affecting me and potentially my lucid dreaming. If you prefer I do it in another thread, let me know.