• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




    Results 1 to 21 of 21
    Like Tree46Likes
    • 6 Post By Oneirin
    • 1 Post By Letaali
    • 2 Post By ThreeCat
    • 4 Post By Valis1
    • 1 Post By <span class='glow_FF1493'>DawnEye11</span>
    • 1 Post By rastro13
    • 1 Post By Oneirin
    • 9 Post By Sageous
    • 3 Post By rastro13
    • 1 Post By Letaali
    • 3 Post By Sageous
    • 3 Post By Sageous
    • 1 Post By Sageous
    • 1 Post By <span class='glow_FF1493'>DawnEye11</span>
    • 3 Post By gab
    • 3 Post By snoop
    • 1 Post By kadie
    • 2 Post By Dreammouse

    Thread: Black Void vs. White Void

    1. #1
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points Vivid Dream Journal Made lots of Friends on DV Veteran Second Class
      Oneirin's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2011
      LD Count
      ~250
      Gender
      Location
      Florida
      Posts
      140
      Likes
      135
      DJ Entries
      120

      Black Void vs. White Void

      Hey everyone. I have a question regarding the void states as in the past month my experience with voids has changed quite a bit, and the visuals/mental presence feels different. In the past I used to enter a void state - typically as an LD faded- where I would try to hold until the next LD formed, or hopefully form some visuals. This state was a bit tough to hold in, and I would usually lose some lucidity before regaining after a very short non-lucid fragment.
      Now, I tend to enter white voids- very similar to the 'white loading area' people often reference from the matrix. My mental presence is much higher along with my access to memory. I'm able to hold awareness and wait for visuals to form more easily, maintaining lucidity.
      So what I'm wondering is: is this white void a slightly different sleep phase? (possibly the black one was actually a NREM phase). Or is the white basically a mental representation of higher awareness?
      All input appreciated!

    2. #2
      Ghost Achievements:
      Created Dream Journal Made lots of Friends on DV Tagger First Class 1000 Hall Points 3 years registered
      Letaali's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2015
      LD Count
      112
      Gender
      Posts
      139
      Likes
      183
      DJ Entries
      61
      I know people who haven't seen a black void, but have experienced a white one. I have only experienced a black void and I feel like it's a transition zone between dreams or a dream and being awake. I have entered the black void in a lucid dream and made a new dream scene appear from that void, so I doubt it's NREM. It's an interesting experience though, being in an empty dreamspace.

      Though once in a lucid dream I turned a TV into a portal, hoping it would lead to another planet, and I ended in the black void instead. That time the void wasn't truly empty, there was a loud screeching noise and I felt dread without apparent reason. Usually the void is a calm, inviting tunnel to a new dream. Not that time.
      DreamCafe11 likes this.

    3. #3
      Nine Lives in Theory Achievements:
      Created Dream Journal Made lots of Friends on DV Referrer Bronze Tagger First Class 1000 Hall Points 3 years registered
      ThreeCat's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2014
      Gender
      Posts
      1,204
      Likes
      1839
      DJ Entries
      59
      I know people who have experienced this. I have not myself personally. It sounds like a good state for mental exploration or dream building. Let us know how it goes!
      snoop and DreamCafe11 like this.

    4. #4
      Member Achievements:
      Made Friends on DV Created Dream Journal Tagger Second Class 1 year registered 1000 Hall Points
      Valis1's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2016
      LD Count
      unknown
      Gender
      Posts
      195
      Likes
      128
      DJ Entries
      9
      "Or is the white basically a mental representation of higher awareness?"

      The experience of a white light seems to be common in both western and eastern descriptions of the death process, in Buddhism it is known as the "clear light of Dharmakaya", which is " the highest spiritual body of the Buddha".

      "The Chikai Bardo (or hChi-kha Bar-do – a number of Tibetan letters are silent) or Intermediate period of the moment of death. This includes the process of dying; and the dissolution of the ele-ments (earth, water, fire, and air) that make up the physical body. During this period one experiences the "Clear Light", one's own innate Buddha-nature. This is therefore a very favourable moment for the attainment of Enlightenment and liberation from the wheel of rebirth." - The Bardo States

      "The first bardo comes at the very moment of death, when there dawns the Clear Light of the Ultimate Reality. This is the very content and substance of the state of liberation, if only the soul can recognise it and act in a way to remain in that state..." - The Tibetan Book of the Dead and Near-Death Experiences

      Similar light phenomena seems to occur among some people who meditate as well, but I have not personally experienced it myself.

      A phenomenology of meditation-induced light experiences: traditional buddhist and neurobiological perspectives - A phenomenology of meditation-induced light experiences: traditional buddhist and neurobiological perspectives

      I have also come across descriptions of a 'white void' in people who have ingested DMT or have taken some other strong psychoactive compound.
      "Parable.- Those thinkers in whom all stars move in cyclic orbits are not the most profound: whoever looks into himself as into vast space and carries galaxies in himself also knows how irregular all galaxies are; they lead into the chaos and labyrinth of existence."- Friedrich Nietzsche, the gay science, First published in 1882 revised in 1887, translated by Walter Kaufmann [/SIGPIC]

    5. #5
      Long Time Lucid Explorer Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV 3 years registered Tagger First Class Referrer Bronze Populated Wall 1000 Hall Points Huge Dream Journal
      <span class='glow_FF1493'>DawnEye11</span>'s Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2014
      Gender
      Location
      On A Special Star
      Posts
      1,267
      Likes
      3598
      DJ Entries
      456
      I've experienced both and to me their sort of the same thing. When I was in it I saw the dream world form and I also saw the dream setting break/vanish and become the void. I also forgot to mention that I saw the white void become black/gray before too.
      Last edited by DreamCafe11; 08-28-2016 at 05:25 AM.
      Letaali likes this.
      "Be the best You, you can be...Relax...Listen...Imagine...*Silence*...Zzzzz"

      DreamCafe11----DawnEye11
      DreamBuddy-Jadegreen

    6. #6
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points 3 years registered Made lots of Friends on DV
      rastro13's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2012
      LD Count
      not enough :-)
      Gender
      Location
      A dream..I think?
      Posts
      44
      Likes
      21
      I've experienced both, but I've only experienced the white void one time. It was much more secure feeling to me. In that the black void is sometimes harder for me to stay in before waking up. I felt much more "attached" to the white void like I was in a much deeper sleep or something.
      DreamCafe11 likes this.

    7. #7
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points Vivid Dream Journal Made lots of Friends on DV Veteran Second Class
      Oneirin's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2011
      LD Count
      ~250
      Gender
      Location
      Florida
      Posts
      140
      Likes
      135
      DJ Entries
      120
      Quote Originally Posted by rastro13 View Post
      I've only experienced the white void one time. It was much more secure feeling to me. In that the black void is sometimes harder for me to stay in before waking up. I felt much more "attached" to the white void like I was in a much deeper sleep or something.
      I'd say this is what my experience has been; it just feels more stable and easy to work with. I feel like I can hold awareness more easily. Valis, your take is really interesting. I'm not sure if it was the 'clear light' stage as it it feels like the dream is right about to build. But maybe that's how they conceptualize that state - the 'illusory' dream being constructed out of 'karmic traces' etc (with the foundation being pure awareness).
      Awesome responses though.
      rastro13 likes this.

    8. #8
      high mileage oneironaut Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV 1000 Hall Points Stickie King Populated Wall Referrer Silver 10000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class
      Sageous's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2011
      LD Count
      35+ Yrs' Worth
      Gender
      Location
      any quiet place
      Posts
      4,904
      Likes
      6909
      My take on the void isn't quite so black and white.

      My experience with the void, as we're discussing it here, is one of existing in a place that is not a place at all, but nothing, period: the void represents for me a moment of zero context, zero sensory input, where you see nothing, hear nothing, feel nothing. When in the void you probably won't even have a dream body -- in a sense you can't, because you need sensory input to confirm its existence. Lucid presence in the void is probably a moment of witnessing a pause by your brain, probably during NREM, where nothing to be perceived is being processed; the perceptual switches are off... yet here we are, lucidly perceiving that lack of perception (more lucid paradox, like being awake while we're asleep). So, for me, the void is a perfectly empty place, where even black and white cannot be discerned.... and here's where it get's fuzzy:

      If you "see" a white void or a black void, you may already have begun to leave it, because some perception is happening (aka, something is being produced for you to perceive). This is especially true with the white version of the void, because, as Valis noted above, pure white (like the Matrix loading area), or the complete presence of light, is an archetypical symbol of things like spiritual energy, of the presence of "something more." I have a feeling that if you are in a white void you very likely are not in a void at all, because the void is filled with void-negating light -- or energy, or holiness, or whatever else you may or may not wish to attach to the whiteness, as many do. So, in a sense, when experiencing a white void, you are actually in a dream, but your dreamscape has been filled with light rather than imagery... and if, as Valis noted above, that white light represents something else altogether, you may be doing more than dreaming, and not less, so still no void. Then there's the black void:

      The black void, especially during early stage NREM/delta sleep, truly is nothing at all, and for me consciously experiencing it is a moment of perfect peace, of removal of my Self from, well, everything. If you want to hear me blather on about the black void (though I'm not sure I ever called it that), you can check out an old thread of mine, called Exploring Delta Sleep. I will say though that the black void for me is rarely black for long: I am usually engulfed in a (probably self-imposed) gray mist that fills everything but is still tangibly nothing; so I find myself unconsciously filling the void with something, fairly quickly... which brings me to my last point:

      Black, white, or grey, the void suffers from one other problem: memory. If we are in a perception-free, context-free place, and memory tends to require some context or perceptual experience in order to record a moment, then what exactly are we remembering when we wake up from our time in the void? Does our brain, in order to process the memory, immediately attach some sort of meaning or imagery to our time in the void that might not have been there in the first place? Do we remember imagery that never existed in the first place (like, for instance, seeing a black void) just to have some memory of a deeply important lucid moment?

      Okay, I'm rambling. Suffice it to say that discussion of the Void, regardless of your interpretation of what it is, is a curious, unique facet of the lucid experience: though everyone enters and exists the void every night, multiple times, we LD'er's are pretty much the only ones who get to personally witness the experience and try -- for better or worse, right or wrong -- to make some sense of this unusual place all our minds enter every night -- pretty cool!
      snoop, Occipitalred, Rebon and 6 others like this.

    9. #9
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points 3 years registered Made lots of Friends on DV
      rastro13's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2012
      LD Count
      not enough :-)
      Gender
      Location
      A dream..I think?
      Posts
      44
      Likes
      21
      Perceptive as usual Sageous. Definitely makes sense to me. Always glad when Sageous shows up in a thread!
      snoop, gab and Patience108 like this.

    10. #10
      Ghost Achievements:
      Created Dream Journal Made lots of Friends on DV Tagger First Class 1000 Hall Points 3 years registered
      Letaali's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2015
      LD Count
      112
      Gender
      Posts
      139
      Likes
      183
      DJ Entries
      61
      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Black, white, or grey, the void suffers from one other problem: memory. If we are in a perception-free, context-free place, and memory tends to require some context or perceptual experience in order to record a moment, then what exactly are we remembering when we wake up from our time in the void? Does our brain, in order to process the memory, immediately attach some sort of meaning or imagery to our time in the void that might not have been there in the first place? Do we remember imagery that never existed in the first place (like, for instance, seeing a black void) just to have some memory of a deeply important lucid moment?
      Memory isn't just what you see. I can remember what I was thinking in dreams. Sometimes I stay longer in black voids with nothing filling it, other than my own thoughts, my own voice. But that is rare. I have to admit, most of the time I fill the dark void with something.

      This might not be too related to the subject, but over a year ago I had a dream where I saw myself floating in darkness. Absolutely nothing else in there, just me, and it looked like I was sleeping. Some invisible force lifted me up from my waist and crushed one of my kidneys, like an invisible giant was pinching with two fingers. That was the first dream where I felt very realistic pain. I just thought it was weird that there was nothing else around.
      DreamCafe11 likes this.

    11. #11
      Long Time Lucid Explorer Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV 3 years registered Tagger First Class Referrer Bronze Populated Wall 1000 Hall Points Huge Dream Journal
      <span class='glow_FF1493'>DawnEye11</span>'s Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2014
      Gender
      Location
      On A Special Star
      Posts
      1,267
      Likes
      3598
      DJ Entries
      456
      If void is a completely empty space and you are present in it, is it still the void? I think it is still the void because it doesn't take away that it is a empty space. However, how come feeling your dream body means your leaving the void if your still in an empty space without light? I can see how the white void would actually be a dreamscape but just because your presence is felt for some time doesn't take away from the fact you are in it I think. Like Letaali mentioned thoughts play an important part of the experience. So you could still be quiet and just pay mind to your presence or the darkness of the void while being in it. Just some more thoughts about it. I'm guessing our definitions of a void might make us see it somewhat differently but than again the dream world is not a literal place but a place we perceive or experience with our mind. Sort of like reality but mostly imaginative.
      Last edited by DreamCafe11; 08-29-2016 at 05:56 PM.
      "Be the best You, you can be...Relax...Listen...Imagine...*Silence*...Zzzzz"

      DreamCafe11----DawnEye11
      DreamBuddy-Jadegreen

    12. #12
      high mileage oneironaut Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV 1000 Hall Points Stickie King Populated Wall Referrer Silver 10000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class
      Sageous's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2011
      LD Count
      35+ Yrs' Worth
      Gender
      Location
      any quiet place
      Posts
      4,904
      Likes
      6909
      ^^ I don't know if your post was directed toward me, but just in case:

      I never said that feeling your presence in a Void is comparable to having a dream body. Quite the contrary.

      Yes, if you are lucid, you clearly must feel your own presence. But what you feel is just that: the presence, in a pure and non-corporeal manner, of You. This presence is the greater whole of the mental/spiritual aspects that define You: your thoughts, your emotions, your memories; your sense of Self. That presence is felt without the assistance, or need, of a dream body; and it sort of has to be this way, because a dream body cannot exist in a true NREM/Delta Void:

      In a dream, You are not your dream body. Your dream body is merely another projection generated by your unconscious/dreaming mind to complete the imagery of the dream. Your dream body is no different in that sense than any other object in a dream, and its creation (i.e., your noticing it in the void) may indeed indicate that your dreaming mind is once again producing imagery, and you may be emerging from the void. So, in short, if you have a dream body, then dream imagery is being created, so it follows that you have likely begun receiving input from your dreaming mind.

      That said, I've found there may be an exception to this: With effort, you can visualize your body -- or at least parts of it -- without necessarily firing up your dreaming mind and REM. What you would do is feel a need to use, say, your hands, and in a few moments you might see what looks like your hands passing before you. Your visualized body parts (and whatever other things you might try to visualize, for that matter) will remain for as long as you stay focused on them, but will disappear immediately when you cease focusing, indicating to me that your dreaming mind is not creating the imagery for you, as it would in a "normal" dream. This sort of visualization can be helpful if you get nervous (or bored) in your void by offering a small sense of physical orientation, and I think it is sourced more in your natural instincts to have hands than it does in your dreaming mind creating dream imagery.

      In fact, one of the very interesting things, to me, about the void is that it is a great place for learning to do without a dream body. These days I rarely, if ever, have a dream body during higher-end LD's (unless of course I feel a need for one), and it proves to be very beneficial to things like control or creation (i.e. flying is a snap if you have no "physical" body to lift into the air), and as a constant confirmation that the entire dreamworld is Me: it is much easier to hold that non-dual point of view without a "physical" dream body tacitly convincing you that you are somehow separate from the dreamworld.

      tl;dr: Since your dream body is, like everything else in a dream, just a projection of your unconscious/dreaming mind, it will not be present if your dreaming mind is not producing imagery -- so logically then, if you have a dream body in the Void, you may very well have begun dreaming again. Also, I for one never said that thought cannot be present in the Void; that simply does not make sense, since thoughts are a vital aspect of the presence of You in the dream. If that was me, I'm sorry I was confusing.

      On that same note:

      Quote Originally Posted by Letaali View Post
      Memory isn't just what you see. I can remember what I was thinking in dreams. Sometimes I stay longer in black voids with nothing filling it, other than my own thoughts, my own voice. But that is rare. I have to admit, most of the time I fill the dark void with something.
      Yes, Letaali, you can certainly remember thoughts; I did not mean to imply otherwise. I was talking about your memory's need to have something sensorially tangible on which to grasp in order to file memories about, say, where you actually were during time in the Void. It needs to record what you saw, heard, or physically felt in order to create a context for the memory, and if no such imagery exists, then it might just do a little editing to create a "file-able" context. But thoughts are as intangible as a Void, by most measures, so your memory already has a process for recording them.
      Last edited by Sageous; 08-29-2016 at 08:51 PM.

    13. #13
      Long Time Lucid Explorer Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV 3 years registered Tagger First Class Referrer Bronze Populated Wall 1000 Hall Points Huge Dream Journal
      <span class='glow_FF1493'>DawnEye11</span>'s Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2014
      Gender
      Location
      On A Special Star
      Posts
      1,267
      Likes
      3598
      DJ Entries
      456
      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      ^^ I don't know if your post was directed toward me, but just in case:

      I never said that feeling your presence in a Void is comparable to having a dream body. Quite the contrary.

      Yes, if you are lucid, you clearly must feel your own presence. But what you feel is just that: the presence, in a pure and non-corporeal manner, of You. This presence is the greater whole of the mental/spiritual aspects that define You: your thoughts, your emotions, your memories; your sense of Self. That presence is felt without the assistance, or need, of a dream body; and it sort of has to be this way, because a dream body cannot exist in a true NREM/Delta Void:

      In a dream, You are not your dream body. Your dream body is merely another projection generated by your unconscious/dreaming mind to complete the imagery of the dream. Your dream body is no different in that sense than any other object in a dream, and its creation (i.e., your noticing it in the void) may indeed indicate that your dreaming mind is once again producing imagery, and you may be emerging from the void. So, in short, if you have a dream body, then dream imagery is being created, so it follows that you have likely begun receiving input from your dreaming mind.

      That said, I've found there may be an exception to this: With effort, you can visualize your body -- or at least parts of it -- without necessarily firing up your dreaming mind and REM. What you would do is feel a need to use, say, your hands, and in a few moments you might see what looks like your hands passing before you. Your visualized body parts (and whatever other things you might try to visualize, for that matter) will remain for as long as you stay focused on them, but will disappear immediately when you cease focusing, indicating to me that your dreaming mind is not creating the imagery for you, as it would in a "normal" dream. This sort of visualization can be helpful if you get nervous (or bored) in your void by offering a small sense of physical orientation, and I think it is sourced more in your natural instincts to have hands than it does in your dreaming mind creating dream imagery.

      In fact, one of the very interesting things, to me, about the void is that it is a great place for learning to do without a dream body. These days I rarely, if ever, have a dream body during higher-end LD's (unless of course I feel a need for one), and it proves to be very beneficial to things like control or creation (i.e. flying is a snap if you have no "physical" body to lift into the air), and as a constant confirmation that the entire dreamworld is Me: it is much easier to hold that non-dual point of view without a "physical" dream body tacitly convincing you that you are somehow separate from the dreamworld.

      tl;dr: Since your dream body is, like everything else in a dream, just a projection of your unconscious/dreaming mind, it will not be present if your dreaming mind is not producing imagery -- so logically then, if you have a dream body in the Void, you may very well have begun dreaming again. Also, I for one never said that thought cannot be present in the Void; that simply does not make sense, since thoughts are a vital aspect of the presence of You in the dream. If that was me, I'm sorry I was confusing.

      On that same note:



      Yes, Letaali, you can certainly remember thoughts; I did not mean to imply otherwise. I was talking about your memory's need to have something sensorially tangible on which to grasp in order to file memories about, say, where you actually were during time in the Void. It needs to record what you saw, heard, or physically felt in order to create a context for the memory, and if no such imagery exists, then it might just do a little editing to create a "file-able" context. But thoughts are as intangible as a Void, by most measures, so your memory already has a process for recording them.
      : ) Yeah, I did read your post and those were my thoughts from it. But yeah...I think some things you mentioned in your other post confused me.

      What do you mean by a NREM Delta Void?I already knew that in a dream our body's are just projections but it seems we might be talking about different voids or not. I'm still not sure.

      That said, I've found there may be an exception to this: With effort, you can visualize your body -- or at least parts of it -- without necessarily firing up your dreaming mind and REM. What you would do is feel a need to use, say, your hands, and in a few moments you might see what looks like your hands passing before you. Your visualized body parts (and whatever other things you might try to visualize, for that matter) will remain for as long as you stay focused on them, but will disappear immediately when you cease focusing, indicating to me that your dreaming mind is not creating the imagery for you, as it would in a "normal" dream.This sort of visualization can be helpful if you get nervous (or bored) in your void by offering a small sense of physical orientation, and I think it is sourced more in your natural instincts to have hands than it does in your dreaming mind creating dream imagery.
      I have experienced that before. That's why I still think it makes it the void. But yeah...I think when you said
      My experience with the void, as we're discussing it here, is one of existing in a place that is not a place at all, but nothing, period: the void represents for me a moment of zero context, zero sensory input, where you see nothing, hear nothing, feel nothing.
      I may have gotten confused.

      In fact, one of the very interesting things, to me, about the void is that it is a great place for learning to do without a dream body. These days I rarely, if ever, have a dream body during higher-end LD's (unless of course I feel a need for one), and it proves to be very beneficial to things like control or creation (i.e. flying is a snap if you have no "physical" body to lift into the air), and as a constant confirmation that the entire dreamworld is Me: it is much easier to hold that non-dual point of view without a "physical" dream body tacitly convincing you that you are somehow separate from the dreamworld.
      I can see how that would work. Although I prefer a dreaming body I agree there are times when you have to let go of it just to achieve what you want to do.

      l;dr: Since your dream body is, like everything else in a dream, just a projection of your unconscious/dreaming mind, it will not be present if your dreaming mind is not producing imagery -- so logically then, if you have a dream body in the Void, you may very well have begun dreaming again. Also, I for one never said that thought cannot be present in the Void; that simply does not make sense, since thoughts are a vital aspect of the presence of You in the dream. If that was me, I'm sorry I was confusing.
      When you say"begun dreaming again" that part kind of confuses me. Aren't you dreaming already when in the void? How else would you be able to be in the void if you weren't asleep? Is NREM a word for being in the dream when your mind isn't producing images anymore?
      Last edited by DreamCafe11; 08-29-2016 at 10:41 PM.
      "Be the best You, you can be...Relax...Listen...Imagine...*Silence*...Zzzzz"

      DreamCafe11----DawnEye11
      DreamBuddy-Jadegreen

    14. #14
      high mileage oneironaut Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV 1000 Hall Points Stickie King Populated Wall Referrer Silver 10000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class
      Sageous's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2011
      LD Count
      35+ Yrs' Worth
      Gender
      Location
      any quiet place
      Posts
      4,904
      Likes
      6909
      Quote Originally Posted by DreamCafe11 View Post
      What do you mean by a NREM Delta Void?I already knew that in a dream our body's are just projections but it seems we might be talking about different voids or not. I'm still not sure.
      We're probably, well hopefully anyway, talking about the same voids here.

      By referencing NREM/Delta, I was pointing out when something like a Void would be encountered, because dreams as we know them are not processed during NREM. Delta sleep is essentially an early stage of NREM when sleep is at its deepest, and decidedly devoid of measurable dream activity. Most discussion of the Void seems to agree that the Void is encountered when we are in NREM sleep, before or between periods of REM, which are the periods in which it has become understood that normal dreaming occurs.

      When you say"begun dreaming again" that part kind of confuses me. Aren't you dreaming already when in the void? How else would you be able to be in the void if you weren't asleep? Is NREM a word for being in the dream when your mind isn't producing images anymore?
      I would argue that no, you are not normally dreaming when in the Void, especially the so-called black void referenced on this thread.

      We do not dream non-stop throughout the sleep cycle; there are periods of sleep when dreaming does not occur, and those periods are physically described by NREM activity. In other words there are times during the night when you are asleep but also are not dreaming. So yes, you can be asleep without any dreaming going on, and when you lucidly witness those moments you are effectively in the Void; asleep without dreaming. And yes, as imagery begins to appear in your Void without your conscious help, you are very likely exiting the Void (and NREM) and returning to a dreaming state (REM) .

      It isn't the dreaming that allows you to witness the Void, but the presence of your lucidity during the dreaming "down-times." Everybody passes through the Void, every night, but only we LD'ers who drag our waking-life self-awareness into sleep with us have an opportunity to witness that passage.

      I guess NREM could be seen as a term that defines the time when your mind isn't producing dream images, because as far as we know dreams occur only when REM (detectable Rapid Eye Movement) also occurs. But I say that hesitantly, because I am of the mind that dreams can occur without REM activity, and therefore some dreaming might happen during NREM -- though not throughout NREM. So in my mind NREM periods can occasionally contain dreams of some sort (probably much more thought-based than REM dreams, and with limited imagery), but also can and will contain moments of no dreaming at all, while REM periods always contain dreams (of the kind with which we are all familiar) and there is no opportunity for the Void I'm discussing to occur.

      In short: REM is the time of dreaming, while NREM is the time of no dreaming... and we are asleep in either period: sleep and dreaming are not equivalent; sleep can, and does, happen without dreams.

    15. #15
      Long Time Lucid Explorer Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV 3 years registered Tagger First Class Referrer Bronze Populated Wall 1000 Hall Points Huge Dream Journal
      <span class='glow_FF1493'>DawnEye11</span>'s Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2014
      Gender
      Location
      On A Special Star
      Posts
      1,267
      Likes
      3598
      DJ Entries
      456
      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      We're probably, well hopefully anyway, talking about the same voids here.

      By referencing NREM/Delta, I was pointing out when something like a Void would be encountered, because dreams as we know them are not processed during NREM. Delta sleep is essentially an early stage of NREM when sleep is at its deepest, and decidedly devoid of measurable dream activity. Most discussion of the Void seems to agree that the Void is encountered when we are in NREM sleep, before or between periods of REM, which are the periods in which it has become understood that normal dreaming occurs.



      I would argue that no, you are not normally dreaming when in the Void, especially the so-called black void referenced on this thread.

      We do not dream non-stop throughout the sleep cycle; there are periods of sleep when dreaming does not occur, and those periods are physically described by NREM activity. In other words there are times during the night when you are asleep but also are not dreaming. So yes, you can be asleep without any dreaming going on, and when you lucidly witness those moments you are effectively in the Void; asleep without dreaming. And yes, as imagery begins to appear in your Void without your conscious help, you are very likely exiting the Void (and NREM) and returning to a dreaming state (REM) .

      It isn't the dreaming that allows you to witness the Void, but the presence of your lucidity during the dreaming "down-times." Everybody passes through the Void, every night, but only we LD'ers who drag our waking-life self-awareness into sleep with us have an opportunity to witness that passage.

      I guess NREM could be seen as a term that defines the time when your mind isn't producing dream images, because as far as we know dreams occur only when REM (detectable Rapid Eye Movement) also occurs. But I say that hesitantly, because I am of the mind that dreams can occur without REM activity, and therefore some dreaming might happen during NREM -- though not throughout NREM. So in my mind NREM periods can occasionally contain dreams of some sort (probably much more thought-based than REM dreams, and with limited imagery), but also can and will contain moments of no dreaming at all, while REM periods always contain dreams (of the kind with which we are all familiar) and there is no opportunity for the Void I'm discussing to occur.

      In short: REM is the time of dreaming, while NREM is the time of no dreaming... and we are asleep in either period: sleep and dreaming are not equivalent; sleep can, and does, happen without dreams.
      Okay. I understand what you mean by NREM now so thanks for explaining.But now I have another question if thats okay. If NREM happens before REM how many times is NREM said to occur in a night?Also, I have experienced what was the black void when I was In REM too. Like the dream was interrupted and the images were no longer there. For a moment I observed it before bringing myself into another scene.
      Last edited by DreamCafe11; 08-30-2016 at 01:02 PM.
      "Be the best You, you can be...Relax...Listen...Imagine...*Silence*...Zzzzz"

      DreamCafe11----DawnEye11
      DreamBuddy-Jadegreen

    16. #16
      high mileage oneironaut Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV 1000 Hall Points Stickie King Populated Wall Referrer Silver 10000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class
      Sageous's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2011
      LD Count
      35+ Yrs' Worth
      Gender
      Location
      any quiet place
      Posts
      4,904
      Likes
      6909
      ^^ Sleep cycles vary from person to person, but figure on about 5 or six REM periods per cycle/night's sleep, with a long NREM period (about 90 min) in the beginning of the cycle, plus an NREM period between each REM period.The deep sleep of Delta occurs at the end of the initial NREM period. As the night moves along, REM periods get longer while NREM's get shorter (which is why it's a good idea to practice WILD's later in the sleep cycle, BTW).

      Also:

      I have experienced what was the black void when I was In REM too. Like the dream was interrupted and the images were no longer there. For a moment I observed it before bringing myself into another scene.
      Yes, you can certainly -- and most likely will -- experience the Void during LD's that began in REM (aka, began normally). This is because, while lucid, you have the unique opportunity to witness the transition from REM to NREM: when a dream suddenly dissolves into nothing, it is very likely that the REM period you were in ended, and NREM has begun.

      I have a feeling that most dreamers' time in the Void occurs during these witnessed transitions from REM to NREM periods, and not during the longer NREM periods in the beginning of the night.

      One curious thing I've found is that lucidity seems to have a part in making those "interrupting" NREM periods very short, implying perhaps that your brain is complying with your wishes to bring in another dream scene and shifting immediately back to REM... if it happens again, you might consider not desiring another dream scene for a while, and see what a longer time in the Void has to offer you. [Fair warning, though: if you are LD'ing late in your sleep cycle, there is a chance that you will wake up if you let the Void continue too long. This is because micro-awakenings tend to occur between REM periods as well, and allowing NREM to continue without "jumping" back to REM quickly might let that micro-awakening happen -- so if you are enjoying the Void but suddenly hear your breathing, or perhaps the rustling of your sheets, it might be time to call for that next dream scene, so as to avoid waking up -- of course, if you can't help waking up, a quick DEILD will get you right back to dreaming!]
      DreamCafe11 likes this.

    17. #17
      Long Time Lucid Explorer Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV 3 years registered Tagger First Class Referrer Bronze Populated Wall 1000 Hall Points Huge Dream Journal
      <span class='glow_FF1493'>DawnEye11</span>'s Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2014
      Gender
      Location
      On A Special Star
      Posts
      1,267
      Likes
      3598
      DJ Entries
      456
      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      ^^ Sleep cycles vary from person to person, but figure on about 5 or six REM periods per cycle/night's sleep, with a long NREM period (about 90 min) in the beginning of the cycle, plus an NREM period between each REM period.The deep sleep of Delta occurs at the end of the initial NREM period. As the night moves along, REM periods get longer while NREM's get shorter (which is why it's a good idea to practice WILD's later in the sleep cycle, BTW).

      Also:



      Yes, you can certainly -- and most likely will -- experience the Void during LD's that began in REM (aka, began normally). This is because, while lucid, you have the unique opportunity to witness the transition from REM to NREM: when a dream suddenly dissolves into nothing, it is very likely that the REM period you were in ended, and NREM has begun.

      I have a feeling that most dreamers' time in the Void occurs during these witnessed transitions from REM to NREM periods, and not during the longer NREM periods in the beginning of the night.

      One curious thing I've found is that lucidity seems to have a part in making those "interrupting" NREM periods very short, implying perhaps that your brain is complying with your wishes to bring in another dream scene and shifting immediately back to REM... if it happens again, you might consider not desiring another dream scene for a while, and see what a longer time in the Void has to offer you. [Fair warning, though: if you are LD'ing late in your sleep cycle, there is a chance that you will wake up if you let the Void continue too long. This is because micro-awakenings tend to occur between REM periods as well, and allowing NREM to continue without "jumping" back to REM quickly might let that micro-awakening happen -- so if you are enjoying the Void but suddenly hear your breathing, or perhaps the rustling of your sheets, it might be time to call for that next dream scene, so as to avoid waking up -- of course, if you can't help waking up, a quick DEILD will get you right back to dreaming!]
      Thanks, that clears up everything for me. Someday I will try to stay in the void for longer but I think the longest I've ever been in was the white void that was considered a dreamscape because of the light. The black ones never stayed too long for me before producing an image but it was enough time to gather some thoughts about it I think. I'll try and stay longer by not thinking about the next dream scene like you said.
      Last edited by DreamCafe11; 08-31-2016 at 12:19 AM.
      Sageous likes this.
      "Be the best You, you can be...Relax...Listen...Imagine...*Silence*...Zzzzz"

      DreamCafe11----DawnEye11
      DreamBuddy-Jadegreen

    18. #18
      gab
      USA gab is offline
      Administrator Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Stickie King 25000 Hall Points Populated Wall Huge Dream Journal Referrer Silver Tagger First Class 10000 Hall Points
      gab's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2011
      LD Count
      306 events
      Gender
      Location
      California Republic
      Posts
      9,574
      Likes
      10555
      DJ Entries
      783
      I have never experienced white void.

      I did have what I called "white screen" during my first few WILD attempts. After some black/grey swirls and images, sometimes my whole field of view would "turn on". It looked like a non-transparant glass that was illuminated from behind. Very bright. It came with some noise, as when water is partially obstructed in a water hose. At this time I would also feel the top-back part of my head "turn on" and it felt ice cold and it would be buzzing. That was a clear sign to me that I am just seconds from having a LD.

      Black void.
      I have had this often, but for me it's grey. I end up in it when one LD ends. I just lay there, knowing that I'm on a sofa, just realizing that the dream has ended. This is when I used to retell myself LDs I had in that chain so after waking up from a long chain I would remember them. Then I would just lay there, thinking that I'll wait for next dream to start so I can be lucid. Then I realize "hey! I'm still here, I can just stand up and start another dream". Often when I stand up here, I see nothing.

      I always thought of this void as waiting period between dreams. It's cool if it's also a NREM period. It's normally very short, no longer than 10 seconds I think.

    19. #19
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class Tagger Second Class Made lots of Friends on DV
      snoop's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2008
      LD Count
      300+
      Gender
      Location
      Indiana
      Posts
      1,712
      Likes
      1208
      I've only ever experienced a black void, though to be accurate my experiences are more like Sageous'. It isn't actually a black void so much as an actual void. The black isn't black so much as it's an absence of anything at all. I've only been in the void 3 times I can remember (in a dream, I've been in voids in a somewhat different context during REM Atonia probably 9 or 10 times at least). One of the times lasted about 5 minutes, and I was highly lucid and aware during the entire experience. I could perceive things in relation to myself, but they were never constant, consistent, or solid. The perceptions were almost entirely at my discretion. When I felt nothing, what I truly felt was that I was nowhere and everywhere at once, I was nothing and everything, etc. (although it's fair to say this was limited to my being, and didn't go so far as, say, being both in pain and not in pain, feeling hot and cold, etc.). I could feel vaguely like I had a body, but only my core was contained (what I really mean is my upper torso until just under my heart), whereas my limbs and lower torso extended infinitely into the nothingness without end, to the point it would be infused with it if it were a thing. So, in a sense, when feeling this, I actually existed physically to an extent, but my body ultimately had no end, so it wasn't much different than not existing.

      I can't say I ever, physically, didn't exist out right. If I didn't exist, it was always in the form of the duality where I both existed and did not exist, was everything and nothing, and was everywhere but nowhere. I was able to make myself feel as though "I", whatever I was, was accelerating at a downward vector (and in that way, was also able to orient myself in space so that there was indeed an up and down). However, it was only downward insofar as I chose to perceive it that way, I could make anything down, which surprisingly wasn't disorienting it all without any reference points or sources of gravity/acceleration other than my imagination.

      Overall, they were all interesting experiences, I didn't feel the need to try and enter a dream from the state I was in because I thought they were great opportunities to experience something I rarely have gotten the chance to.
      Sageous, rastro13 and ThreeCat like this.

    20. #20
      Member Achievements:
      Created Dream Journal 1000 Hall Points Made lots of Friends on DV 3 years registered
      kadie's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2013
      Posts
      579
      Likes
      460
      DJ Entries
      30
      I use a white light which becomes a void of sorts when meditating.
      I use a black void when trying to remote view.
      My personal feeling is that using a black void leads me tonward more telepathic state.
      White void leads me more toward a higher self, meditative state and often precedes astral experiences.
      rastro13 likes this.

    21. #21
      Member Achievements:
      Created Dream Journal Made Friends on DV 1 year registered
      Dreammouse's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2016
      LD Count
      20+
      Gender
      Posts
      49
      Likes
      40
      DJ Entries
      10
      My voids black I think - I don't 'realise' there is nothing until I have a 'thought' and then that makes 'something' once I've made something it's like awareness comes back online and then awareness makes more stuff. I'd not herd of 'Delta Sleep' I'm of to read the link now
      Sageous and rastro13 like this.

    Similar Threads

    1. Black and Void Dreams
      By crimsoneye in forum General Dream Discussion
      Replies: 11
      Last Post: 07-05-2014, 06:49 PM
    2. is this normal? feeling of being sucked into void/black hole
      By 123tedson in forum General Lucid Discussion
      Replies: 2
      Last Post: 12-05-2012, 05:01 AM
    3. White eyelid-void?
      By Polarity in forum General Lucid Discussion
      Replies: 13
      Last Post: 04-07-2011, 08:49 PM
    4. Entered a white void while trying to fly
      By Choogly in forum Dream Control
      Replies: 5
      Last Post: 10-12-2010, 03:03 AM
    5. Black Void (Not sure) Lucid Dream
      By eidahl in forum Lucid Experiences
      Replies: 1
      Last Post: 04-04-2006, 10:16 PM

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •