Any known cases of people going psychotic/mental from dreaming?

[Serious]

Yo Does anybody know someone who got all messed up by spending too much time in the dream world? Like they couldn't distinct reality from dreams and started flipping out?

[Sivason]

I have never heard about that. We did have a member who was being treated for schizophrenia and he said his doctor was not sure focusing on lucid dreaming was good for someone who already had trouble with reality vs fantasy. In general I think this stuff increases one's mental health, as self awareness is part of the training.

[Alric]

It is pretty hard to spend too much time dreaming, since your body isn't physically capable of sleeping that amount of time. If you did manage to some how sleep like 15 hours every day, it probably isn't going to be dreaming that is your problem but your screwed up sleep cycle that causes you issues.

[Eonnn]

I'm still waiting for that one person to jump off a roof after doing a reality check that gave them a false indication they were dreaming. Don't think it will ever happen but who knows.

[Laurelindo]

I'm still waiting for that one person to jump off a roof after doing a reality check that gave them a false indication they were dreaming. Don't think it will ever happen but who knows. Yeah, just because someone experiences a slightly unusual event it doesn't suddenly mean that they are definitely dreaming. One should always make absolutely sure that it is a dream before doing crazy things. In my opinion, one of the best reality checks is to try jumping above the tree-tops - and staying in the air. If you can do that then you are definitely dreaming. There has to be a completely fool-proof sign like that which tells you beyond all doubts that it can only be a dream and nothing else, not just a slight indication that you are "probably" dreaming.

[Mzzkc]

Yeah, just because someone experiences a slightly unusual event it doesn't suddenly mean that they are definitely dreaming. One should always make absolutely sure that it is a dream before doing crazy things. In my opinion, one of the best reality checks is to try jumping above the tree-tops - and staying in the air. If you can do that then you are definitely dreaming. There has to be a completely fool-proof sign like that which tells you beyond all doubts that it can only be a dream and nothing else, not just a slight indication that you are "probably" dreaming. If I'm ever uncertain, and I'm indoors, I'll just jump out a window and fly. It's much harder to jump out a window IRL than you might imagine.

[StephL]

If I'm ever uncertain, and I'm indoors, I'll just jump out a window and fly. It's much harder to jump out a window IRL than you might imagine. Agreed. Meandering a bit off topic now, but I came across a group of base-jumpers and wingsuit enthusiasts who are referring to lucid dreaming, and maybe it is somewhat easier to jump from a height on purpose if you have done that in an LD before. How else can you train for the real thing, actually? And it is indeed easier to jump from heights in an LD, thankfully, but not entirely so at times, also thankfully for adventure purposes. I was once getting quite afraid of worming out of a hole in a wall on fourth level of a house and drop headfirst. But I wanted that for exactly this reason, that it unsettled me. And it did, but I did it anyway, caught myself and was proud. Not entirely sure, why they call their videos that, though: Can't imagine to mistake reality for an LD and jump, or psychotropics making me believe I can fly for real neither. Myth in my view, that this would be a danger. And I don't think even severe delusions lead to such a mistake, at least only in exceptional cases - psychotic jumping being suicide (attempts) rather than misapprehension of that order. Fear of heights is pretty hardwired and needs to be overridden consciously and with willpower - in case of LDs with the help of meta-consciously realizing, that you are in a simulated reality and hence not in danger. Lucid jumping from high edges is more adrenaline-fun for me than taking off from the ground for sure. Don't you jump from driving cars, Sensei? I might chicken out, actually - will report somewhere...

[Mzzkc]

We've been lucid dreaming for years now and--no matter what lies they're pushing down your gullet--we haven't gone crazy in the slightest. Nope not us.

[Sivason]

We've been lucid dreaming for years now and--no matter what lies they're pushing down your gullet--we haven't gone crazy in the slightest. Nope not us. Yep, neither have we, or me, or me too.

[insideout]

Not sure if this is relevant, maybe helpful: I often have dreams and simi-lucid dreams in which I feel like I'm losing my mind (not pleasant), and reality feels unstable and sometimes I'm not sure what's waking life and what's dream life. But I always feel normal again once I'm actually awake. I think a person would have to already have a serious psychological disorder for this to be an issue.

[TheUncanny]

Jared Lee Loughner (supposedly), I don't buy it: http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...dreamer-u.html

[Athanor]

Personally, I think that insideout hit the nail on the head in suggesting that the danger in looking at our dreams (and those of others) is that there could be an underlying psychological problem. Even the renowned psychiatrist Carl Jung made a very bad error in this regard which he described in “Memories, Dreams, Reflections”. He tells of a medical doctor who lived a very normal-looking life and who wanted to become an analyst. To do so, he would have to go through an analysis himself to ensure that he was truly knowledgeable enough about his own self in order to be able to analyze and help others. The only problem was that he said he had no dreams. Dreams usually serve as a starting point for an analysis, so Jung said to wait and that he would have some dreams. Jung later admitted that this total absence of remembering dreams, along with the man’s extra-normal and almost regimented life, should have been seen as possible warning signals of a serious underlying problem. Finally after two weeks, the man provided this dream: “I was traveling by railroad. The train had a two-hour stop in a certain city. Since I did not know the city and wanted to see something of it, I set out toward the city center. There I found a medieval building, probably the town hall, and went into it. I wandered down long corridors and came upon handsome rooms, their walls lined with old paintings and fine tapestries. Precious old objects stood about. Suddenly I saw that it had grown darker, and the sun had set. I thought, I must get back to the railroad station. At this moment I discovered that I was lost, and no longer knew where the exit was. I started in alarm, and simultaneously realized that I had not met a single person in this building. I began to feel uneasy, and quickened his pace, hoping to run into someone. But I met no one. Then I came to a large door, and thought with relief: That is the exit. I opened the door and discovered that I had stumbled upon a gigantic room. It was so huge and dark that I could not even see the opposite wall. Profoundly alarmed, I ran across the great, empty room, hoping to find the exit on the other side. Then I saw — precisely in the middle of the room — something white on the floor. As I approached I discovered that it was an idiot child of about two years old. It was sitting on a chamber pot and had smeared itself with feces.” Dr. Jung also described how he was told by the dreamer that he had awakened with a cry, in a state of panic. As a fully trained and long-experienced analyst, Jung recognized that the dream was picturing a latent psychosis (the potential for a total mental breakdown with a poor prognosis for recovery). He had to pretend, however, that nothing was wrong, and to gloss over the telling details (e.g. the idiot child etc.). Luckily, a subsequent dream and other matters soon helped to convince the doctor to give up his idea of becoming an analyst, and he returned to his normal life, never again doing anything to stir up his unconscious. Dr. Jung also made the following comments about this overall issue of the dangers of looking at dreams as appeared in the book “The Meaning of Dreams and Dreaming” by Maria F. Mahoney: “Jung’s own warning is not to be dismissed lightly, either: ‘One never knows what one may be releasing when one begins to analyze dreams’, he says, and although referring specifically to those in analysis, the application to others is pertinent. ‘Something deeply buried and invisible may thereby be set in motion, very probably something that would have come to light sooner or later anyway, but again, it might not. It is as if one were digging an artesian well and ran the risk of stumbling on a volcano…. There are cases of people, apparently quite normal, showing no especial neurotic symptoms – they may themselves be doctors and educators – priding themselves on their normality, models of good upbringing, with exceptionally normal views and habits of life, yet whose normality is an artificial compensation for a latent psychosis. Those concerned suspect nothing of their condition. Their suspicions may perhaps find only an indirect expression in the fact that they are particularly interested in psychology and psychiatry and are attracted to these things as a moth to the light.’ Jung’s emphatic warning should not be ignored…. …Mental breakdown is not the only dire consequences of a hostile unconscious; psychosomatic illnesses and the instigating of accidents are other manifestations of inimical unconscious activity…. …Pointing to dangers is not intended to dash cold water but to make clear that the unconscious is not to be trifled with. However, the individual in basically sound psychological health will not experience difficulties…” Anyway, it’s probably best to be at least aware of the “worst-case-scenario” that’s potentially involved in looking at one’s own dreams or in trying to interpret those of others because of the possible dire consequences involved.

[Hilary]

…Mental breakdown is not the only dire consequences of a hostile unconscious; psychosomatic illnesses and the instigating of accidents are other manifestations of inimical unconscious activity…." Wow... this was an interesting read. Athanor, would you mind giving some more thoughts on what instigating of accidents means? And any ideas into what psychosomatic illnesses might come up?

[ThreeCat]

Jared Lee Loughner (supposedly), I don't buy it: http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...dreamer-u.html Loughner was a "textbook psychopath," if I remember correctly. He would lie about anything if he thought it would give him more control over a person or situation. I also did not buy his explanation. If he was really a lucid dreamer, he would have known he was awake.

[Sensei]

Mental illness comes from things like tragedy or trauma. No one seems to "acquire" it through mind practices. Never seen meditation, visualization, or anything similar make someone lose it.

[Athanor]

Hi MoonageDaydream, As a very general example, the “instigation of accidents” could occur if a person began looking at their dreams in detail for the first time but had a certain unknown psychological vulnerability. Also, they may have no reliable outside support in handling what came up. If after a while, they stumbled upon seeing a couple of darker and destructive aspects of their personality, or dream images triggered memories of forgotten nasty things they had done etc., this could let loose a stream of guilt and shame as in the artesian well example given by Dr. Jung. The problem is that, without a kind of “container” to handle such feelings (such as a sympathetic listener etc.), the person, depending on their overall psychological makeup, might tend to totally supress the unpleasant truths about themselves etc. that had appeared. But it’s kind as if the cat was let out of the bag and is mad at being forced back into it, so unconscious feelings of guilt and shame would sort of roam around inside the person looking for a way to punish them. So while driving, the person unconsciously makes the “mistake” of pressing hard on the gas instead of the brakes, causing an accident and therefore “punishing” themselves and perhaps even injuring others. The possibilities of what can happen in these circumstances are endless but the basic cause is the same; that is, a perhaps well-intentioned desire to get to know themselves better by looking at dreams on their own could potentially backfire by unleashing little-known parts of the dreamer’s psyche . Freud wrote about accidents etc. in “The Psychopathology of Everyday Life” which, despite the technical sounding title, actually provides many easy-to-read examples of accidents, slips of the tongue or keyboard etc. that occur when the unconscious “invades” the ego, usually because the latter is suppressing some kind of unpleasant realization about itself or an unflattering opinion they have about someone else etc. etc. Although the book was written a very long time ago and the examples might sound a little dated, the underlying principles haven’t changed. As far as what psychosomatic illnesses might come up, that depends on the physical and psychological makeup of the person, so there are an endless number of possibilities. As you know, a certain extended family group is often more susceptible to suffering from a given medical condition than other families are. So for example, if digestive disorders are common in a family, then the person may have these occur to an excessive and uncomfortable degree which interfered with everyday activities for prolonged periods because that’s where their basic medical vulnerability lies. Of course, a complete medical examination would have to be done and only then, if there were no obvious physical cause present could a psychosomatic diagnosis be possible. The other factor involved is that the specific symptoms chosen by the unconscious often directly mirror in a symbolical way the suppressed belief etc. Consequently, someone’s digestive problems can be saying “There’s something about yourself that you can’t digest”. Similarly, in the example above of a person who unconsciously felt guilt and shame, he or she might develop some obvious and serious skin condition which was easily visible. In this case, the symptom could be saying something like “You feel unclean and that your inner evil is contagious like the disease of a leper”, obviously a serious problem that would need some professional help to cure. I hope these additional ideas can be helpful in some way.

[markov]

Mental illness comes from things like tragedy or trauma. No one seems to "acquire" it through mind practices. Never seen meditation, visualization, or anything similar make someone lose it. Meditation-induced psychosis. Meditation-induced psychosis. - PubMed - NCBI Meditation is like biofeedback, except from the fact that the feedback is even more difficult to interpret, thus you can accidentally elicit the wrong reaction. [...] Other case reports dealt with either a relapse of a pre-existent psychotic disorder or with a brief psychotic reaction in patients without a psychiatric history [...]. Seems like the effects of any induced psychosis are transient though.

[riddlepug]

Some disorders can cause things related to dreams, such as constantly believing you're in one, but I don't think anyone has gained mental illness from dreaming.

[markov]

Can lucid dreaming trigger schizophrenia?

[Sageous]

^^ No. Schizophrenia might be heightened by LD'ing, because LD'ing might potentially make separating reality from dreaming or hallucination a problem (tho I personally even doubt that), but you would already need to be suffering from it. There is pretty much nothing in LD'ing that could cause this complex illness, I think.

[StephL]

Mental illness comes from things like tragedy or trauma. No one seems to "acquire" it through mind practices. Never seen meditation, visualization, or anything similar make someone lose it. And/or from genetics, not to forget. Schizophrenia might be heightened by LD'ing, because LD'ing might potentially make separating reality from dreaming or hallucination a problem (tho I personally even doubt that), but you would already need to be suffering from it. There is pretty much nothing in LD'ing that could cause this complex illness, I think. Yep, maybe. Might it be a benefit when it comes to LDing if you are schizophrenic? I could well imagine that, incl. having specific people in mind. Maybe even the other way round as well? I could also imagine that it might help in that case to do awareness work for LDing and LDing itself to be able to sort out reality better. Hm...

[markov]

Maybe even the other way round as well? I could also imagine that it might help in that case to do awareness work for LDing and LDing itself to be able to sort out reality better. Hm... [...] This characteristic has lead to the development of a model of insight - dreaming-psychosis model. This model suggests brain activity in lucid dreaming overlap with wakeful insight ability. Therefore, interventions which promote or train lucidity (insight in dreams) may be useful in psychosis therapy to help the individual with psychosis to become aware of their state, and potentially control it. Psychosis as a dream-like state of mind : Broadcast: News items : University of Sussex Neural correlates of insight in dreaming and psychosis. - PubMed - NCBI

[Sageous]

Meditation-induced psychosis. Meditation-induced psychosis. - PubMed - NCBI Meditation is like biofeedback, except from the fact that the feedback is even more difficult to interpret, thus you can accidentally elicit the wrong reaction. [...] Other case reports dealt with either a relapse of a pre-existent psychotic disorder or with a brief psychotic reaction in patients without a psychiatric history [...]. Seems like the effects of any induced psychosis are transient though. Though I tend to take issue with a study involving one subject, I would agree that some extreme forms of meditation could cause a psychotic episode... but brief a psychotic episode is very different from schizophrenia -- and, of course, meditation is not LD'ing. Might it be a benefit when it comes to LDing if you are schizophrenic? I could well imagine that, incl. having specific people in mind. Maybe even the other way round as well? I could also imagine that it might help in that case to do awareness work for LDing and LDing itself to be able to sort out reality better. Hm... I'm not sure if LD'ing itself would be a benefit for schizophrenics. It might be, because it could give them a bit of conscious leverage in their dreams, thus empowering them to positively affect any disturbing disorder occurring there. Conversely, though, that conscious leverage could thrust upon them an additional reality in conflict with the one they are currently navigating in the dream; in other words, they are piling on another self over the self they already think is real in the dream, and they might not be able to accept that first dream-self as unreal. I am far from an expert in schizophrenia, so that's where I'll leave my guesswork on this, but suffice it to say, I do think there might be a risk in a schizophrenic having LD's. However: Daytime LD'ing practice might be very helpful to a schizophrenic, I would imagine, because it gives her an opportunity to center her Self in reality (mindfulness/self-awareness work, RRC's), and also offers simple tests to confirm her state (RC's), perhaps offering a simple method for working through difficult moments. On top of all that, perhaps the day work might even help in dreams, even without lucidity, because her focus during disturbing dreams or nightmares might shift to that practice -- a practice that helped her through disturbing times during the day -- to ease their impact by acknowledging that those things are not real or threatening. Hmm.. now I've just said that becoming lucid in a dream might be a good thing for a schizophrenic; I guess that just hints at my limited knowledge of it... This seems to better say what I just did: [...] This characteristic has lead to the development of a model of insight - dreaming-psychosis model. This model suggests brain activity in lucid dreaming overlap with wakeful insight ability. Therefore, interventions which promote or train lucidity (insight in dreams) may be useful in psychosis therapy to help the individual with psychosis to become aware of their state, and potentially control it.

[ThreeCat]

Heartache, Headache, and Meditation: What Are the Signs of a Practice Going Wrong? | Shambhala Blog Woo, internet. Only source I can find at the moment. Not scientific, but definitely written by someone familiar with meditation.

[ThreeCat]

I think some meditative practices could potentially result in psychological trauma if you're not ready for them (thinking of dark retreats, but others could apply).