Thread: Why is lucid dreaming so closely related to unproven phenomena

Yo guys,
First of all don't get all pissed off at me because I do respect everybody's view but really we live in a scientific time. Lucid dreaming is a proven phenomena that had been tested in a laboratory under test conditions and is generally accepted by most of the scientific community. But there is Astral projections and OBE's that are closely mixed with lucid dreaming which have no proof to back them up, so I believe it is one of the huge factors why lucid dreaming isn't yet globally excepted. I am not sure what my personal view is but why has lucid dreaming taken this route? I would like to see it evolve but I have this strange feeling that it won't until it removes the bond of all the unproven stuff. I would love to know your views on this but before I become the 'outsider' for not believing please understand that I would like this stuff to be real, trust me I would but the rest of the world thinks it is bullshit so I'm afraid to see lucid dreaming to reach main stream level then it simply will have to lose this bond. Plus if we ever want it to be taught at school then it will defiantly have to lose the bond because no school would teach it on so many grounds.
-GangsterPanda

It's New Age spirituality that is to blame.

The concept of lucid dreaming has been tainted by the misinterpreted phenomenon of "Astral Projection". "Astral Projection" is lucid dreaming, but lucid dreaming is not "Astral Projection". On the other hand, NDEs are a different matter.

Of course, it all depends on what you wish to believe.

Edit: P.S. I'm referring to WILD and AP methods, which almost exactly the same. Non-lucid dreams and NDEs have been grouped into the AP phenomenon as well, but you get what I mean.

It is exactly because it is so unknown that people get scared of it. I don't talk to just anyone about my lucid experiences because I might get judged in a way that I wouldn't like.
I don't really understand why so few people are into exploring their dreams anyways. There would have to happen something big before it would become mainstream.
I'd like to see some more awareness & activity around it though, like after school/work go to some lucid dreaming sessions with other people, rathar than always having to go online because no one else knows about it.

And I also think lucid dreaming might have possibilities that we aren't aware of yet, and it might be connected to things we just can't explain or give evidence to.
Science just doesn't have the right answer at this time, and it's our turn to find out things now.

Originally Posted by Kpitek

It is exactly because it is so unknown that people get scared of it. I don't talk to just anyone about my lucid experiences because I might get judged in a way that I wouldn't like.
I don't really understand why so few people are into exploring their dreams anyways. There would have to happen something big before it would become mainstream.
I'd like to see some more awareness & activity around it though, like after school/work go to some lucid dreaming sessions with other people, rathar than always having to go online because no one else knows about it.

And I also think lucid dreaming might have possibilities that we aren't aware of yet, and it might be connected to things we just can't explain or give evidence to.
Science just doesn't have the right answer at this time, and it's our turn to find out things now.

I liked this post, I hope that some day I will also be able to talk about lucid dreaming outside the Internet without being told I'm crazy, and yeah science doesn't have all the answers and it never will, well it might but I doubt any time soon. And also the fact that its so different to what the general public define as a 'hobby' that we may never see that day when lucid dreaming is mainstream excepted, oh well I'm still going to try with my 2013 lucidity awareness project I just don't know what the results will be.
-GangsterPanda

Would your view of lucid dreaming change, had it not been proven by LaBerge or others? How about if you have been born before it was proven and you would be lucid dreaming then. Would you dismiss your experience just because it was not proven yet?

Was the Earth really flat, just because it was not proven to be round yet?

I guess what I'm trying to say, proving something doesn't make it real. The experiences may be real, wheather they are proven or not. Just practice LDin some more, I'm sure you will have some experiences that will make you think. And you will not care, if some scientist in lab had proved it or not.

Stuff does exist, even before it's proven. We don't know everything, it's possible, that we just didn't invent the machines to test and prove OBEs and APs.

And about separating LDs from other phenomena, so LDs don't get "tainted". That's something only LDer not believing in those other phenomena cares for. Because in eyes of general public, you are in a same looney bin as people who believe in OBEs and AP. Simply because they don't believe in lucid dreaming. So you are doing the same thing - trying to discredit OBEs, while they are trying to discredit LDs.

No offence to anybody, I don't mind if someone believes or not in whatever. It's easy to try and discredit something, that someone has no idea about, because he has not experienced it. Just my opinion, of course.

My reply is not aimed at you personally, GangsterPanda, but in general. I know you just searching for answers.

Originally Posted by gab

Would your view of lucid dreaming change, had it not been proven by LaBerge or others? How about if you have been born before it was proven and you would be lucid dreaming then. Would you dismiss your experience just because it was not proven yet?

Was the Earth really flat, just because it was not proven to be round yet?

I guess what I'm trying to say, proving something doesn't make it real. The experiences may be real, wheather they are proven or not. Just practice LDin some more, I'm sure you will have some experiences that will make you think. And you will not care, if some scientist in lab had proved it or not.

Stuff does exist, even before it's proven. We don't know everything, it's possible, that we just didn't invent the machines to test and prove OBEs and APs.

And about separating LDs from other phenomena, so LDs don't get "tainted". That's something only LDer not believing in those other phenomena cares for. Because in eyes of general public, you are in a same looney bin as people who believe in OBEs and AP. Simply because they don't believe in lucid dreaming. So you are doing the same thing - trying to discredit OBEs, while they are trying to discredit LDs.

No offence to anybody, I don't mind if someone believes or not in whatever. It's easy to try and discredit something, that someone has no idea about, because he has not experienced it. Just my opinion, of course.

My reply is not aimed at you personally, GangsterPanda, but in general. I know you just searching for answers.

That's why I hope all of this stuff is real, but the general public think exactly different to you and will not believe anything unless they have scientific proof, and that's just the way the human race has evolved.
-GangsterPanda
EDIT: Sorry reading this back this doesn't make much sense as a reply, I just wanted to say Gab that this is a very valid point and I hope people listen to your opinon.

Originally Posted by GangsterPanda

That's why I hope all of this stuff is real, but the general public think exactly different to you and will not believe anything unless they have scientific proof, and that's just the way the human race has evolved.
-GangsterPanda

Well, there already is proof for LDing. But I still get the looks from people when mentioning it. I'm just saying, we shouldn't be so hung up on scientific explanation.

If someone is interested in the 'out of the box' things, he will look up LDing and practice it. If someone is not, you can show him article from "science monthly" and he will not give a damn. You can't force LDing on someone who is just not interested. Maybe they are not ready. Maybe LDing is something only more evolved people have interest in.

It's scientifically proven that eating vegetables is really good for you. Yet not everybody is hooked. So I don't think that proving something will change peoples minds. The change has to come from within.

If someone is interested in LDing but he doesn't want to do it or believe in it untill he sees some proof, whell then to heck with them. Let them wait and miss out on all the fun.

Do you really think, if some article came out tomorrow, that people would go "omg, I have heard about that but didn't care, but now that it's proven, I'm gonna do it". I don't think so.

Originally Posted by gab

Would your view of lucid dreaming change, had it not been proven by LaBerge or others? How about if you have been born before it was proven and you would be lucid dreaming then. Would you dismiss your experience just because it was not proven yet?

Was the Earth really flat, just because it was not proven to be round yet?

I guess what I'm trying to say, proving something doesn't make it real. The experiences may be real, wheather they are proven or not. Just practice LDin some more, I'm sure you will have some experiences that will make you think. And you will not care, if some scientist in lab had proved it or not.

Stuff does exist, even before it's proven. We don't know everything, it's possible, that we just didn't invent the machines to test and prove OBEs and APs.

And about separating LDs from other phenomena, so LDs don't get "tainted". That's something only LDer not believing in those other phenomena cares for. Because in eyes of general public, you are in a same looney bin as people who believe in OBEs and AP. Simply because they don't believe in lucid dreaming. So you are doing the same thing - trying to discredit OBEs, while they are trying to discredit LDs.

No offence to anybody, I don't mind if someone believes or not in whatever. It's easy to try and discredit something, that someone has no idea about, because he has not experienced it. Just my opinion, of course.

Of course, it all depends on what you wish to believe.

I rest my case.

I've gone through both beliefs (yet experiencing the same thing), so that is what contributed to such an outlook. In this case, getting into semantics is not constructive.

I'm sorry but lucid dreaming will probably still be considered weird or esoteric for atleast the next twenty years. The entire concept has many aspects to it which deviate too much from a normal boring life to even be considered by most of the general public. Anyways, it's only been twenty years since it's been proven and before the nineties the likes of guru's and carlos castenada went around spreading their extreme teachings and an image was built of them as weirdos and freaks which still hasn't quite withered away.
I honestly believe that we will either all die or some kind of Virtual Reality will be invented before the majority of people will aceept lucid dreaming.

I talked to someone once about LDing and she said that she had heard about it in her chemistry class when they were talking about the effects of drugs on the brain and how some people take drugs to lucid dream. Her idea of lucid dreaming was that we are all drug addicts. She was talking about things like LSD and some other illegal drugs, not like melatonnin or the other ones some of y'all use.

I think that Christian's have been told that anything that cannot be proven by science has to be demonic. This puts bad names on it as well. And since they go into it thinking demonic, you can expect what AP looks like. I believe in biblical angels and demons, so this theory is interesting to me. They also say 'messing with your subconscious is dangerous'.

So we have:
Illegal drugs
Demonic
Dangerous

That one of the biggest groups in the world (if you take professing Christians) beleives. This will hinder LDings progress. Even if you take AP away from it, some still think it is demonic. So it is hard to get past this (my) group.

Unless we could get Oprah on our side. That is the single biggest following. we need Oprah

I talk about lucid dreaming to my friends occasionally and they seem interested, but not enough to do anything about it. Surprisingly, I got my mother interested in lucid dreaming and she now keeps a dream journal. *win*

It's a shame it is!!!
Way too many books on the subject go all wako crazy and start mixing it up with silly ideas!!!
Makes me angry really!!!

UPDATE: Well guys, I have something to tell you that more people understand what a lucid dream is that you would think would know. I have recently been trying to hire a animator and I found one guy on YouTube, after seeing him on vsauce and I really liked his style and I fought I would contact him further. Unfortunately he replied that he could not do it because he had a full schedule and couldn't take my project on. But the amazing thing is that he new what a lucid dream was and actually said he would love to work on the project later on so I'm probably going to make him another offer in 2013. Also remee received $500,000 in funding! So all of them people who funded it must know about lucid dreams. So when you look at it in a different perspective I'm actually satisfied at how many people know about lucid dreaming, it's just not mainstream. I'm going to be honest with you the first time I found lucid dreams was typing How to control your dreams, and I fought what I would find was new age and fake information. But I found a whole community that is so loving and caring and will always listen and acknowledge you but yet always have another answer that continues to make you think. I love this community just the way it is and it's all thanks to everybody on this forum, and honestly I'm not in a rush to change that.
Thanks everyone GangsterPanda,

Think about something... where are your consciousness?

A. When you are AWAKE?
B. When you dream?

The answer to both of these questions is that it is directed somewhere. When we are awake we percieve the world with our senses, when we are asleep we percieve the world with our non-physical senses. If we can't see, hear, smell, touch and feel would we experience anything at all?
When we are awake you don't see with your eyes, they are just picking up information or in even more detail they are picking up waves of vibration that is called light.
You don't hear with your ears either you are just picking up information or in more detail, vibrations that is called soundwaves.
You don't feel with your body either, they are just picking up vibrations, you smell because your nose translates vibrations, you taste because your tongue is translating vibrations.

This is the meaning of E=MC^2 Energy = MASS AND LIGHT (and everything we percieve.) or in other words EVERYTHING IS ENERGY.

Now think about this, take a look at your hand and really take a close look at it. For you it looks solid, but if you put the hand under a MASSIVE microscope you would see a mass of energy vibrating! Now take a look at your wall, guess what, it's not solid either! It's a massive energy in a very high speed of vibration.
Now take a look at yourself! You are energy as well!

This might sound new age, but this is quantum physics!

You can look at everything in the world and look at it's as particles and the world would fit that model, but you can also look at everything as waves and it would fit that model.

Your experiences in this physical world is because the mind is translating vibrations of energy through your physical senses, but everything is experieced with the consciousnes. Your experiences in a dream world is because the consciousness is translating information and energy through your non-physical senses but everything is experienced with the consciousness. If the consciousness is experiencing your ego (subconscious, memories and emotions) it's dreaming if the consciousness is experiencing EVEN higher frequencies of vibrations it's astral projecting / OBE.

Why is the non-physical world LESS real when it is based on the same kind of mechanics? Not ot forget that when the non-physical world is experienced, it is the physical world that feels non-physical and distant.

Our physical existence is vibrating at one frequency that our consciousness is currently directed to but when we dream our consciousness is vibrating at a different frequency than our physical but the the same that our non-physical dream existence is vibrating to.

Yes I understand that this sounds new age, but the reason to why I went from a skeptic to thinking this was plausible, is because Robert Monroe was just a scientist who wanted to meassure the radio waves effect on people (accidently invented binaural beats and then hemi sync), and he tried it on himself, later on he got his out of body experiences, he turned his mind like a radio and was able to move his consciousness! Really interesting stuff, and also not to forget to mention at first he was a total skeptic and he even thought he was crazy. xD

Here is also a video of dimensions: Spirit Science 7 ~ Dimensions - YouTube

And an interview with Robert Monroe: Robert Monroe explains his first OOBE. - YouTube

I have to say that these sort of statemeants made by some regular lucid dreamers put me off trying lucid dreams at first because i found it quite frightening that people were having OBE'S and seeing shadow creatures ect about the world. But then i Got Looking into quantum physics which has really interested me and has almost made me want to change my career choice rather than computer forensics which is what i'm doing at college at the moment. But then looking into quantum physics there are a lot of unexplained things parallel universe ect. Now i began to get interested and think if i can master lucid dreaming maybe i can have the same experiences. A lot of unexplained science out of our galaxy. were just a small rock But we can see the begging of a cosmos with a telescope. There is a beginning and the end of the universe predicted to be in about 14 billion years gets you asking the questions are there other universes.

(Just thought id share why ive chosen lucid dreams 1 reason for that 2nd because it would be cool to meet some celebrites and 3rd to stop horrific nighmares. Ive only ever had a layer 1 lucid dream. and ive only been trying lucid dreaming for about 5 weeks. Sorry im a nub to the LD forums)

In our society people in general seem generally just uninterested in dreams. Occasionally I'll hear someone mention one at a get together, on Facebook, or even at a company meeting. In my house I talk with my kids and wife about dreams almost daily, and I hope to encourage them to start the conversation themselves, which they do pretty often. I've learned a lot from reading Ryan Hurd, Stephen LaBerge, Robert Waggoner and others.

I don't see lucid dreaming as being closely related to unproven experiences as you posed in the title, but I get what you're saying, there are definite circles that relate these with unproven phenomena. In my own discussions, I never relate them to other things, I simply talk about the dream state. I have just a couple close friends I can actually have a conversation with about these. One friend has had taken it far, learned how to induce, and had many of his own. That was over a decade ago, and he stopped because he started getting freaked out a little bit, the reality checks were becoming obsessive for him, and he was probably raising his state of critical awareness without realizing it, which just changed his view of things. We've recently reconnected and talked a bit more about this. Another friend has never been introduced to LDs before I talked it over with him. I know he's an open minded guy, and he asks a lot of good questions, and I think he'll be interested soon to make the effort. These are normal dudes, dads, husbands, business owners. I wish I knew more women I could talk with about this but I don't at the moment.

This link might give you a good conversation starter. It's a recent study by the Max Planck Institute, where they took a close look at brain activity during lucid dreaming, using MRI.

Research | Research news | The seat of meta-consciousness in the brain

You can find the full research paper if you search around, if not I have a copy. It goes into a lot more depth of course. I've seen several interesting scientific studies recently, including one focused on testing 10 induction techniques. So you can rest assured, this stuff is not being blown off by the scientific community.