Thread: WILD - Wake Initiated Lucid Dream

Can someone please tell me if it's still considered WILD if you feel sensations, enter a dream, but feel that you may have lost some consciousness for a few seconds before doing so? Or is WILD no loss of consciousness at all when entering a dream?

Hey, I was thinking if I should perform WILD before REM starts or when it has just started?
Like, If I want to perform WILD in the morning and I go to sleep at 23.30 then I would wake up after 5.40 hours of sleepn not 6?

Originally Posted by Reinards

Hey, I was thinking if I should perform WILD before REM starts or when it has just started?
Like, If I want to perform WILD in the morning and I go to sleep at 23.30 then I would wake up after 5.40 hours of sleepn not 6?

This is one thing that used to confuse me about sleep cycles. I used to think that sleep cycles continue right on schedule even when interrupted by us waking up for the restroom or for a WBTB.

I thought that if we wake up right after the NREM (which includes falling asleep, light sleep and heavy sleep), then next we fall asleep we go straight into REM, because they go NREM>REM>NREM>REM... through the night.

But no. Every time we fall asleep, be it beginning of the night, middle of the night after WBTB or a morning nap, we always start with falling asleep/light sleep section of sleep cycle. Then, depending of how long have we slept, we go either into long deep sleep (beginning of the night), shorter deep sleep (middle of the night/after some hours of sleep), or straight into REM (morning/noon nap, or after about 7 hrs of sleep).

So there is no need to watch the clock exactly and do WBTB at exact times when next REM comes up (which would be at every 90 minutes). This is because the 90 min sleep cycle is not exact itself. It can be from 80 min to 120 min, with 90 being the most often average. And sleep cycles are even more complicated that this, with some cycles repeating before REM comes on.

So why then we say to WILD after so many hours? It's because the longer we sleep, closer the REM will be to us falling asleep. And the NREM will be shorter or non existent, and REM much longer.

All we need to make sure that we have slept long enough before WBTB and everything else will be in place for us by nature.

Attempting to WILD when you first go to sleep at night is not recommended.

Do I WBTB with an alarm?
Also, when I WBTB, should I get up and walk around for 5-10 mins or should I stop the alarm and start my WILD?

Originally Posted by bsomerville

Do I WBTB with an alarm?
Also, when I WBTB, should I get up and walk around for 5-10 mins or should I stop the alarm and start my WILD?

WBTB literally means that you need to get up from the bed. Stay awake anywhere from 5-90 min. This need personal experimenting. Stay up until you can think straight, but you are still reasonably sleepy. Do some LD related activity to prime yourself up.

If you do use alarm, try one thats gentle. Maybe a vibrating one, or one that starts out quiet and gradually increases volume. So you don't wake up startled. Thats a sure way to forget all your dreams.

Or you can try my favorite method: drink some water before bed and then every time it wakes you up to use the restroom until you are up at good time for a WILD.

Waking up to call of the nature has 2 benefits.

1. It wakes you up gently. Most likely between sleep cycles, right after the REM of that cycle is over. Prime time to recall a dream.
2. It will force you to actually get up from the bed so you do a WBTB. Normally it's kinda hard to get up at middle of night, even if you had best intentions in the evening. This way you will not just slap your alarm and go back to sleep.

Please check out another WILD tutorial as these and many more questions are answered there.

WILD

I have been looking for a repeatable way to get lucid for several years now. What I have had the most success with seems to be WILD both with and without supplements. When I have been successful, I typically start out by repeating to myself, "I am dreaming" while I am falling asleep. Then, at some point, I am in a dream and I simply realize that I am dreaming. I find this process pretty amazing, but I have not, yet, been able to make it something that is easy for me to repeat. I cannot say that I really know whether it was timing, waking after a few hours of sleep and then attempting WILD, or anything in particular that made the effort successful. All I can say is that I was lucid after a successful attempt which resembles the WILD technique.

I want to note that I do not recall being aware of the signs of any transition states. When I fall asleep, whether trying WILD or not, I often wake up several hours later without having noticed any of the transitional states in my process.

So, I am seeking advice. From what I gather, WILD is a practice that leads to lucidity. As it seems like a practice, it seems like I should just practice what worked in an effort to find and further refine what works for me. So, I think that I should continue using the "I am dreaming" mantra until I have practiced enough to make it consistently successful.

Does this make sense?

Any thoughts, suggestions, comments will be welcome.

Thank you.

EDIT: My last successful attempt was in July of 2020.

Originally Posted by wiyosaya

So, I am seeking advice. From what I gather, WILD is a practice that leads to lucidity. As it seems like a practice, it seems like I should just practice what worked in an effort to find and further refine what works for me. So, I think that I should continue using the "I am dreaming" mantra until I have practiced enough to make it consistently successful.

Does this make sense?

Any thoughts, suggestions, comments will be welcome.

Thank you.

EDIT: My last successful attempt was in July of 2020.

"I am dreaming" as a mantra is a very solid approach. You do not need to make it any more complicated than that. Learning to stay aware as your body gets closer and closer to sleep is something to work on, as it takes practice. You need to find a balance were you stay a little bit aware but not so aware that it keeps you from sleep.
It is important to keep in mind that it rarely works. It is worth doing as everyone wants to get lucid. To put it in prospective with my training (maybe 2500-3000 fully lucid adventures, 10s of thousands of moments knowing I was asleep/dreaming, 32 years of lucid dreaming and a few more of mental yoga) and if I really try WILD with true intent I will only average 1 in 3, and if I half ass it maybe 1 in 10. The point is never get discourages if it does not work. Learn the skill and you should be able to have at least 1 LD a week, perhaps many more.

It seems to me that there is a progression of 3 stages in regards to WILD and the necessity of SP.

1. (The 'classic' view) SP is an inevitable, and needed, stage in a WILD that acts as 'gateway' to an LD. Reach SP and you'll have an LD, all efforts should be directed towards reaching this state.

2. (Intermediary view) SP is neither necessary nor inevitable, you may experience this phenomenon when you WILD or you may not, aim for the LD when you WILD and don't focus on SP.

3. (The 'radical' view) SP is a myth of the LDing community, most of the phenomena classically assigned to SP since the literature of LaBerge is in fact NREM phenomena experienced through falling asleep consciously. The term sleep paralysis should be reserved for its original clinical usage. The state described is more properly called REM atonia, and a dreamer will already be dreaming before REM atonia kicks in, dreamers who have a predisposition for isolated sleep paralysis may experience it during a WILD attempt. Guides based on reaching SP are founded upon misinformation.

Perhaps it is not needed to outline these positions, they are all already fairly evident to anyone who has engaged in the SP debate, but this thread has raised the issue that a consensus has not been reached (is a consensus even possible when it comes to such subjective experience?).

The great efforts by dreamguides and other members in WILD threads is going a long way to shake up the omnipresence of SP and as a community we're ahead of the game in even questioning it.

So after reading the WILD tutorial yesterday, I think I have become better at falling asleep - thank you for that. Did not succeed in getting lucid, but had some images, and definitely fell asleep.

I think a lot of the confusion comes from the use of the term SP that has changed over time. In the beginning the more or less normal paralysis was referred to a SP, there are tons of posts about this SP, and most of the people are still using this term.

Then more recently, there has been an update of definitions, and the then SP is now referred to as REM atonia. And the new SP is referred to as a medical condition. That being said, I think the guides are doing their best to explain to newbies with the recently agreed partial-consensus of the word. At the same time, a lot of us continue to use the term SP. I also prefer to use SP instead of rem Antonia, because the idea of sleep paralysis is easier to associate with what is happening.

Very little can be done about this situation, like I don't think it is possible to read, identify and edit all threads that supposedly incorrectly use SP and change the term to rem Atonia, and force everybody to use the more uncomfortable sounding word. We may be unnecessarily going into a vicious circle here.

What I think is much more important is educating people about the role of SP in sleeping and ld, whether it is necessary, should people look for it, be worried about it, etc. And with regards to that, the dream guides team is doing a great job, explaining well and giving the relevant links.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

I think a lot of the confusion comes from the use of the term SP that has changed over time. In the beginning the more or less normal paralysis was referred to a SP, there are tons of posts about this SP, and most of the people are still using this term.

Then more recently, there has been an update of definitions, and the then SP is now referred to as REM atonia. And the new SP is referred to as a medical condition.

That's where you're wrong. The definitions never got updated, sleep paralysis was always sleep paralysis. Unfortunately, the LDing community started using the term as a catch-all phrase for all sensations related to falling asleep--not just the paralysis. This poor choice of slang led to widespread confusion and a belief that paralysis was a necessary experience when attempting a WILD, which left more impressionable newbies struggling unnecessarily.

To stretch the point: imagine if a large number of people were referring to "apple trees" as "potato trees". Then a few people come along and point out the ridiculous turn of phrase, citing cases where elementary school student are getting held back in school due to the confusion. The powers-that-be recognize the problem and immediately go to work trying to fix it--for the good of the children. Unfortunately, some folks still take to using the term "potato trees" because--they argue--"apple trees is too awkward to say/type, and there's no point trying to retcon the mistake 'cause people have been using it for so long, so I might as well keep using it 'cause you can't make me stop."

Think of the children, NyxCC...think of the children...


Aside: Radical enough for you Ctharlhie? XP

^^ What he said.

So Mzzkc, I really fail to see the point you are trying to make. Dream guides do the best they could to dispel confusion and make it easy for newbies to understand how SP, apple or potato trees are related to WILD. DV is a large archive full of diverse opinions, so everybody is free to browse threads and form an opinion about what is written there, then they can always post a new thread and ask questions.

Should we have a vote on which term to use and have a strict checklist of symptoms related to SP, apple trees or potatos, and assign a rating of correctness every time the term is used? Maybe we should appoint you as a SP moderator so that you can go over about 2 million posts and check for the accuracy of the term used.

I really hope we are not turning this into another troll thread, whereby it becomes quite unclear what we are actually arguing about.

To avoid this happening I would suggest clearly indentifying any issues relating to SP and proposing viable ways to deal with them. Because so far, I have seen that everything that could have been done in both the WILD tutorial as well as when welcoming newbies has been done. So I don't think there are elementary students that are been held in school because some of the teachers are incompetent.

Also, forget not that all of us are children in a way, because learning is a life time process.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

So Mzzkc, I really fail to see the point you are trying to make.

That's too bad, as my point was rather brilliantly executed. I guess metaphors are too high-brow for forums nowadays?

Originally Posted by NyxCC

Should we have a vote on which term to use and have a strict checklist of symptoms related to SP, apple trees or potatos, and assign a rating of correctness every time the term is used? Maybe we should appoint you as a SP moderator so that you can go over about 2 million posts and check for the accuracy of the term used.

One: DV isn't a democracy.
Two: The checklist for symptoms already exists in medical literature.
Three: Lawl, no thanks, I'm good here on the sidelines--dissenting when it's needed.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

I really hope we are not turning this into another troll thread, whereby it becomes quite unclear what we are actually arguing about.

Feed me, Seymour.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

To avoid this happening I would suggest clearly indentifying any issues relating to SP and proposing viable ways to deal with them. Because so far, I have seen that everything that could have been done in both the WILD tutorial as well as when welcoming newbies has been done.

Ooohh! I know! Pick me! Pick me!

Maybe...stop using the term "SP" to refer to something that isn't sleep paralysis? Golly, that might just do it, if everyone got on-board.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

Also, forget not that all of us are children in a way, because learning is a life time process.

Yeah, too high-brow...I might spell it out later, but that sorta defeats the point.

Disclaimer: I think NyxCC is a swell person. The above post was a critique on his and/or her ideas, not character.

Since I like playing devil's advocate: how long would it take for a term to become correct through common usage? Language evolves, and sometimes people use the wrong term, but if it becomes culturally accepted, after a long time of common usage, perhaps it is not incorrect any more?

My problem with using the term sleep paralysis is not whether it is or ever was the right term - I could not care less about using the term "potato tree" as long as everyone in the community understood me, and there were no negative connotations so it was just semantics. The trouble is that with sleep paralysis newbies have negative connotations, and as a result they are incorrectly scared of WILD.

It's not like calling apple trees potato trees, it's more like calling "diving" into the water "drowning", and then you get all these people saying that they are scared of learning how to use a diving board at a swimming pool because they heard that most people drown when they jump off.

Mzzkc, unfortunately even diagnosis manuals evolve over time, and it may become very hard to ascertain who feels what exactly and when. Sensations related to falling asleep can be very subjective which adds more to the confusion.

I personally don't mind using any terms you guys deem correct on DV. Not very sure about your statement that DV is not a democracy, it seems everyone is free to express their opinion and the knowledge cumulates but sometimes gets a bit mixed up.

That thing about children was not meant to be high-brow. What I was saying is that we are all constantly learning and the advice any DV member gives is likely to evolve over time as one gets more experience and of course as science progresses.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

Mzzkc, unfortunately even diagnosis manuals evolve over time, and it may become very hard to ascertain who feels what exactly and when. Sensations related to falling asleep can be very subjective which adds more to the confusion.

Except all those sensations are clearly delineated and associated with certain phases of sleep--even when those changes happen. The most recent example of this was the shift to N1-N3 sleep, wherein Phase 3 and Phase 4 sensations were lumped into N3 sleep. Still, the sensations experienced during NREM sleep vary enough from REM atonia that any knowledgeable person could easily differentiate between the two.

My point here--since examples don't seem to be enough to get it across--ignorance to facts is not an excuse to uphold ignorance.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

I personally don't mind using any terms you guys deem correct on DV. Not very sure about your statement that DV is not a democracy, it seems everyone is free to express their opinion and the knowledge cumulates but sometimes gets a bit mixed up.

If DV were a democracy, everyone would have a direct say in everything that goes on here. Really, DV is much more like an oligarchy--which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

That thing about children was not meant to be high-brow. What I was saying is that we are all constantly learning and the advice any DV member gives is likely to evolve over time as one gets more experience and of course as science progresses.

I know what you were trying to say; you didn't understand my metaphor--otherwise you would have realized the elementary school kids represented newbies and the people perpetrating use of the wrong terminology represented folks like you. Continuing the metaphor, Sageous or sivason might be considered Tenured Professors who advise PhD students and teach undergrads students on the side.

Continuity of thought and self-reference is also too much, I guess.

Edit: sivason posted while I was writing this.

^^^ Very nice point here.^^^


Ok, well we have all filled up the nice discussion thread with dozens of posts on a topic not related to 'this' tutorial. For the sake of leaving the question section uncluttered I would suggest the currrent topic does not need furture debate here.

Well, I think that the SP curse has managed to get the best of us once again.

Sorry about my contribution to that.

All contributions are welcome. Just don't word them in such a way that makes others look stupid. We're all trying to get answers here. And it's hard with something so personal as lucid dreaming.

The good news is, I see alot of learning happening here. I've learned more about WILDs and all it's possible phases and transitions in the past year than in my whole life before that. I had to keep an open mind to do this. If I hadn't, I might have missed something cool.

Anyway, to all: don't get frustrated with different uses of terminology, or SP prejudice, or schemas. And don't try to make your point more clear by quote/bashing another member. We have to work together to get the correct information out. It has to be done constructively. What can I do to make this right?

Originally Posted by OpheliaBlue

What can I do to make this right?

It is all right. The number of confused members asking SP questions has gone down, the SP thread gives many points of view, and the staff all have a good grasp on the issue. Sounds right to me.

Some disagreements will happen in any topic.

Disagreements aren't even a bad thing. To reach an synthesis you need a thesis and antithesis (to be awfully idealist about things). Though sometimes people can be smart alecky about it...




damian_2_hal-9000_focus_jpg.JPG

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Disagreements aren't even a bad thing. To reach an synthesis you need a thesis and antithesis (to be awfully idealist about things). Though sometimes people can be smart alecky about it...

FTFY

But more seriously, the staff is doing an excellent job. Things are way further along now than they were when I picked up this little crusade a few years back, and it's all thanks to the staff--both present and recent. All of you honestly and truly care about LDing--which is a nice change of pace, methinks.

Cheers!

Well said OB, sivason, Ctharlhie, and Mzzkc. Mzzkc, I may have given the impression that I am not on your side for this crusade but I actually am. I don't think I have given any wrongful advice to newbies in the few posts on this issue I have made, so I hope no bad feelings remain. http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...paralysis.html

I am very grateful to everybody for their tutorials and peer support. This is a great community and I am looking forward to discovering new things about LD-ing and interacting with all of you, even if we sometimes disagree. Dream on!

My problem with WILD is I always end up keeping myself awake, or letting myself fall asleep. When counting, I can keep going for hours... If I try to back off focusing a bit I fall asleep. What are some ways around this?