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    Thread: Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals -- With Q & A

    1. #251
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      Hey Sageous,

      Lately I've been kind of looking at the process of falling asleep and seeing if there is any way to get to sleep faster and overcome insomnia, you know what I mean, those nights where you can't get to sleep and you don't feel very tired, but would like to get to sleep.

      There are also other occasions where I feel tired physically, but my mind is firing thoughts and whatnot.

      Recently I've been experimenting with saying very repetitive things or to compliment MILD I'll repeat a mantra, when I really want to get to sleep I will say it very meaningless and repetitive so that the "mantra" kind of registers as just noise and eventually I fall asleep.

      I also never make sleep a goal to shoot for, and remember that you must fall into it, you can't actively make yourself sleep <- I found this mindset helps quite a bit and may be resourceful to others

      But I was wondering if you may have any tips/ideas/suggestions for overcoming not being able to fall asleep/insomnia?

    2. #252
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      ^^ Yeah, being both a light sleeper and a person who seems to have all his thoughts while lying in bed, I've been there too, EmptyBucket, many times. The unspoken fundamental of successful LD'ing is sleep, and it can be frustrating when you can't do the "simplest" part of the process.

      You're already doing two of the things I would have suggested, and never shooting for sleep as a goal is without a doubt my primary suggestion. As soon as you start thinking about sleep, you start a long night of being wide awake. Also, though it doesn't work well for me, repeating a mantra is a good idea as well; however, I would suggest making the mantra meaningful, and relating to dreams and not sleep. It'll still register as noise after an hour or more of repetition (and have the same drowsy effect as a meaningless mantra, we hope), but when you do finally fall asleep, it may have helped put your mind in the right place for your dreams.

      Here are some other things I've found helpful (in descending order of helpfulness):

      1. Never, ever, get angry or anxious that you cannot sleep, or concern yourself with how you'll be in the morning or that you're missing out on all those dreams; that only makes it worse. The real cure for occasional insomnia is simply not giving a crap about it.

      2. Instead of thinking you need to sleep, think rather that your body has given you a few hours of quiet quality time. Try to use that time to think about important things that might need a few hours of thought, like your long-term dream goals/fantasies, or maybe about some "big stuff" from waking life, like long-term projects or goals, family plans, maybe that book you always meant to write (DO NOT think about waking-life minutia, like what you're going to do tomorrow, or problems/fights you had yesterday -- keep it general and "large," or you will never fall asleep!). Do this even if it means you'll be up all night thinking about this stuff -- go into it willing to be tired tomorrow.

      I've repeatedly found that as soon as I abandoned interest in sleep and start working on long-term stuff (usually my major dreaming goals), drowsiness ensues. And even if it didn't ensue, I would certainly fall asleep eventually, and -- though tired in the morning, and having no dreams to speak of -- would feel like I had a good, productive night. This might only work for me, as a reflection of my mind's disinterest in working on the important stuff (I can hear my brain saying, "No, we're not wired to think about things, dummy, we're going to sleep!"), but I think it might be worth a shot, and it might make your time waiting for sleep well spent.Do something else. Read a book.

      3. Get up: watch TV, do some (quiet) chores, or perhaps take a walk outside and enjoy the quiet. Just do something that is not sleeping, to give your mind and body something to do to settle down, reset itself, and get interested in sleep. And DON'T DO something that ties into the stuff that was racing your mind in the first place.

      Also, forget about dream work for the night, as thinking that you're losing dream time will only compound the insomnia. Do this even if it's morning and you were attempting a WILD. Funny thing: some of the best LD's I've had have come after I gave up on getting to sleep and finishing a WILD.

      4. If it's racing thoughts that are keeping you up, let them drive right by: create an image in your mind that encourages thoughts to wander right by, existing but unheeded. Envision perhaps a small stream trickling past you in the dark, and imagine the thoughts as so many ripples in that stream. Let them exist, let them make their noise, but change that noise from a distraction to a pleasant little burble of passing water. NEVER try to force thoughts out of your head, because that only tightens their grip on your psyche.

      5. Do the 61 points relaxation technique mentioned in EWOLD. It does work!

      6. It may be trite, but that counting down from 100 task works quite well, especially if you add a visualization: instead of just counting, imagine each number written in the sand of a beach, and as you say it a gentle wave of ocean washes it away, making a clean space for the next number (this is not my idea, BTW, but I can't remember where I got it).

      7. Read a boring book (as opposed to reading something you want to read, as in #2), like a textbook or a philosophy book. Shakespeare works pretty well for me too, oddly.

      8. Roll over. Move your body into a position that is not normal for your sleeping (i.e., if you normally sleep on your right side, switch to your left). This sounds silly, but the novelty helps.

      9. Pop a couple of melatonin tablets. I think 1 to 3 mg's is the norm, though I've had many a 10 mg night.

      10. Have a glass of warm milk or hot cocoa.

      That's what I have; I hope it was some help!

    3. #253
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      Wow, what a great response,

      I've had the feeling of "Wow I'm missing out on potential lucids", and it is a frustrating one, I love the way you described the ripple of thoughts because when my head is full of thoughts at the end of a long day, I sometimes think of an image and then other thoughts form an image from the previous image and it's so automatic, like I just let it happen, it feels like I'm "emptying" my thoughts.

      Sometimes I've been so awake I think that I should just get up and do homework, work on something.

      Thanks again, I hope the other dreamers read this as I'm sure many find sleep as a goal, get frustrated, etc.
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    4. #254
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      Hi Sageous, I wanted to get your thoughts. Perhaps this specific angle could be something that you or someone has already talked about in the forums. I believe you have spoken of WBTB as being helpful in firing up parts of the brain useful to lucid dreaming, but I believe you have also mentioned not firing up all parts of the brain lest you convince your brain that your night of sleep is over and end up switching off REM. I am wondering if specific awareness work might be useful as the primary focus during all WBTB's if you are going for DILDs. I was just reading an article and it reminded me of a previous article we had discussed...both are referenced below.

      2012 article I just read where the only real correlation is a study of which areas of the brain are activated while closely reading text literary versus pleasure reading: This is your brain on Jane Austen, and researchers at Stanford are taking notes
      bottom line: paying close attention to literary texts "requires the coordination of multiple complex cognitive functions" as shown by MRI scans of the brain during such reading as opposed to pleasure reading that showed blood flow in different parts of the brain.

      Original article we discussed briefly: Lucid dreamers help scientists locate the seat of meta-consciousness in the brain
      "In a lucid state, however, the activity in certain areas of the cerebral cortex increases markedly within seconds. The involved areas of the cerebral cortex are the right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, to which commonly the function of self-assessment is attributed, and the frontopolar regions, which are responsible for evaluating our own thoughts and feelings. The precuneus is also especially active, a part of the brain that has long been linked with self-perception.”

      Perhaps we could use targeted activities focused on self awareness during WBTB to maximize our level of lucidity while being careful to not fire up the wrong parts of the brain. Edit: I am recalling something about not getting too intellectual with awareness work...perhaps something I should heed here as well.
      Last edited by fogelbise; 11-13-2013 at 01:29 AM. Reason: Edit at end

    5. #255
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      Quote Originally Posted by fogelbise View Post
      Perhaps we could use targeted activities focused on self awareness during WBTB to maximize our level of lucidity while being careful to not fire up the wrong parts of the brain.
      I think I already advocate that; don't I?

      Seriously, though: yes, WBTB ought definitely to be practiced with a focus on targeted self-awareness. The trouble is, what to target?

      I have a brother who is a professor of neurobiology at a major university whose primary lot in life is locating what parts of the brain are fired by what activity and why. He's made a lot of progress, but a funny thing has developed as we discussed his work over the years: though he can tell you all about examples like reading Jane Austen, and might even try defending that meta-consciousness experiment Zoth found for us last year, he seems to have changed his position regarding consciousness and memory (aka, the stuff of dreams). Yes, we might be able to see a few basal brain bits fire during dreams, but it seems that the entire brain is accessed for the higher stuff like self-awareness, and in (as yet) no discernible pattern. [Keep in mind that self-perception and self-awareness are two very different things -- at least in my opinion.]

      So, if we could stimulate the frontopolar regions (whatever they are), successfully firing places, for instance, that have lit up when LD'ers were tested, we still might not have triggered or amplified our self-awareness or memory... Indeed, we might have made a real mess of things, because it may be that it's our self-awareness triggering those regions, and not the other way around: lighting them first, before self-awareness has had input, might cause some confusion, I think.

      What I get from all this is that there may be no specific part of your brain you can target while massaging as complex a part of your mind as self-awareness, so the best you can do is go after the more global things, like keeping your brain in as close a state to sleep as you can get it, so that the target-able centers like those that oversee sleep can continue their processes... in a sense, you are literally avoiding any stimulus to the system.

      One way to keep your brain centered on sleep during WBTB is by not taxing it with things like using your computer or, perhaps, reading and enjoying Jane Austen. Since we don't know which centers "drive" self-awareness yet, or indeed if there are any, the best we can do is maintain it ourselves without disturbing the parts of the brain we can effect. Did I just say that?

      In other words, keep your brain calm and dreamy during WBTB, and trust your self-awareness to kick in when needed; nobody's going to do it for you, possibly ever. Once again the fundamentals eclipse science and shortcuts?

      I am recalling something about not getting too intellectual with awareness work...perhaps something I should heed here as well.
      Perhaps! The last thing you want to do is lie there in the dark intention set, dream-plans in place, maybe a little excited about it all, only to spend the next hour or two thinking about which bits of your brain are lighting up, or if you took the right pills or did the right mental exercises to have them lit for you. That may be one too many layers of complexity over a process that ought to be as clean as possible.

      That was a good question, though, and certainly one whose answer I hope to one day be proven wrong about.
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    6. #256
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Yes, we might be able to see a few basal brain bits fire during dreams, but it seems that the entire brain is accessed for the higher stuff like self-awareness, and in (as yet) no discernible pattern. [Keep in mind that self-perception and self-awareness are two very different things -- at least in my opinion.]
      That completely makes sense to me. How could something like self-awareness be so defined within our complex brain!

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      I remember when I was younger I use to get SP(didn't know what it was then) whenever I slept a regular night's sleep during the day and was forced to go to sleep that same night. Weird thing is when I would wake up some days in the morning I'd awaken in SP and my neck would be stiff and I was scared shitless my this.

      I have a question about Self Awareness. Is it knowing or at least having a sense of where everything is? Like for example right now I'm typing this on my laptop and I can hear the chatter of voices in the next room and the clatter of men working on my neighbors house, while also hearing the voice in my head narrate this text. Is that being self aware or should I reach for something more?

    8. #258
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      ^^ You should reach for something more, I think.

      The awareness you describe is fine, but it does not include "you" in the exercise. Self-awareness is the aknowledgement of your interaction with your local reality -- that you have an effect on it, and it on you. Scanning for all those details won't help increase your self-awareness if you fail to include your self in the formula.

      In other words, self-awareness is not about collecting all the information in the room (or in your head, for that matter) as much as it is grasping the significance of of your interaction with that information.
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      Is this the same concept as "I" in Ego? I mean how do I keep track of myself if I am also suppose to be aware of my surrounding? Or do mantras come in part of the plan here?

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      Quote Originally Posted by MrBlonde View Post
      Is this the same concept as "I" in Ego?
      No. If you are referring to the "I" in ego as that thing which, say, in Zen Buddhism you wish to eliminate, then no. Far from erasing the presence of "you" in your immediate reality, here you are making a point of noting your inclusion in reality, your impact on it, and its on you. If you mean "ego" in the Freudian sense, then no. And, of course, if you mean "ego" in its mode as oft-used stand-in for selfishness and self-aggrandizement, then absolutely no. The various definitions of ego tend to complicate self-awareness, not define it. [As a quick aside, I should also mention that self-awareness is the polar opposite of selfishness or narcissism, whose conditions are partially defined by their complete lack of self-awareness.]

      I suggest, Mr. Blonde, that you be careful about trying to over-define or too deeply examine what I'm saying here, as that can lead to possibly unhelpful intellectual traps. To quote my OP here: Self-awareness is nothing more -- or less -- than being aware that you are here, that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you. It really is that simple. Self-awareness, when it comes down to it, is a fairly simple concept. It may take time and a bit of effort to call up and maintain its presence, but there is no need to complicate it with more terms, philosophizing, or deeper explanations.

      Plus, even if this definition of self-awareness is too simplistic for a philosophic or intellectual discussion, it is more than enough to portray its significance in lucid dreaming. Why? Because if you can carry this attitude, this sense of participation in your immediate reality, into your dream, then during that dream -- where your immediate reality is nothing but you -- lucidity will be a given.

      I mean how do I keep track of myself if I am also suppose to be aware of my surrounding?
      Sadly, if you cannot keep track of yourself while you pass through your surroundings, then I fear you will have a real problem with self-awareness -- and a lot of other things, for that matter (ie, avoiding obstacles, greeting friends, picking the best route to your goals). Also, nobody said you're "supposed" to do anything; if you don't feel like doing full-on ADA, then don't.

      Or do mantras come in part of the plan here?
      No. Mantras are not necessary for gathering or maintaining self-awareness.

    11. #261
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      Amazing, Sageous, amazing!! What can I say, thank you! I have read a lot of your threads and now fully aware of the concept and how it works(not just self-awareness, but also everything you said). And your last answer for fogelbise really topped it off. I was very worried on how the concept actually works in the brain, even if not really known how, the information that is available is enough to convince me. But I get worried about every detail(these 4 months where really exosting, but worthit to understand LDing), and I am worried what is self-perception? I am pretty sure I'm doing self-awareness correctly, but this haunts me:p. Again, thank you very much for all you have given^^. You have been a great assistance to me, and as a matter of fact, Zoth too(he has given me a lot of guidance that lead me to my current knowledge and understanding of LDing), and I feel you are good friends by your posts^^. Sorry the post is so long, but it doesn't even come close to express my gratitude to all you have done to help US ALL!! THANK YOU!!
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      Thank you for the kind words, LouaiB, I'm glad someone is still reading this stuff, and maybe getting something from it!

      Now, I think there was a question in there somewhere, wasn't there:

      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      and I am worried what is self-perception? I am pretty sure I'm doing self-awareness correctly, but this haunts me
      This is just my opinion, but for lucid dreaming, self-perception does not matter.

      Self-perception is the construction of your personality from your point of view, literally how you see yourself based on your own judgment of your actions, reactions to others, and thoughts. Self-perception is an intellectual product that helps you to better understand the things you do and say, prepare yourself for your own social behavior, and maybe keep you from doing or saying unhelpful things. This is all important in its context, but that context is not lucid dreaming.

      Self-perception is very different from self-awareness. Though strong self-awareness would certainly make self-perception easier to do, self-awareness is driven more by your observation or acknowledgment of your interaction with reality, your presence in it, and at its core it is an action that requires very little creative thought, only an open mind. Conversely, strong self-perception might hinder self-awareness, because it is an act of definition rather than observation or wonder; that definition could serve to inadvertently close your mind, blocking it from the truth of your interaction with reality by attaching rationale to explain it, or your behavior in it.

      Self-perception is an opinion, a picture, that you draw of yourself, based on your behaviors, interests, and thoughts; self-perception is very much an invention, and can be done without even considering your interaction with your local reality. Indeed, you can have excellent self-perception without ever realizing that you are an individual interacting with reality, and it with you. By the same token, since it is an invention, your self-perception could be very wrong, and narcissistically based; indeed your self-perception can be a complete construct, based on nothing real, but rather on, say narcissistic fantasies.

      tl;dr: Self-awareness = your awareness that you exist, and that that matters; self-perception = your personal definition of your own personality, based (hopefully but not necessarily) on your own interpretations of past actions or thoughts, and your expected behaviors.

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      Thank you for your generous post and your precious time^^! I am a DILDer, but I do WILD, and am a little good. I get the vibrations, a little HI, and those annoying "jolts" while fully conscious doin WILD( you know, when you fall asleep and suddenly dream of slipping or tripping, jolts you out of your bed(a real shocker, happened to me 3 times in my last session)).
      Last edited by LouaiB; 12-30-2013 at 09:54 PM.
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      Sageous,

      Thanks for your answer on the WILD Q&A thread. I had one more question and thought this thread would be more appropriate.

      I could be wrong, but is this basically how the ‘fundamentals’ help in lucid dreaming?:

      The 'dream state' is a state of awareness that is not easily recognized, and also a place where your mind accepts things that are inconsistent with reality due to memory of reality being mostly 'switched off'. By practicing self-awareness and memory (the fundamentals) you will develop the essential mental tools for overcoming these two main 'problems' of the dream state, helping you to easily recognize this state of awareness in a general sense, regardless of any 'technique' you might choose (e.g. DEILD, MILD), whilst also being of major benefit in any technique you do choose.

      Thanks again and happy new year!
      Last edited by Eamo24; 12-31-2013 at 11:39 PM.
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      ^^ You got it, Eamo; that was an excellent summary!
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      I have one more question.
      Does ADA reduce the effect of ADSA(RRC)? I read the whole thread of ADA right or wrong for lucidity.
      It is that self-awareness, memory and environmental awareness(ADA) can be of benefit together, but still there is a hindering of some sort. So, better if I practice ADSA and memory with some environmental awareness with my RC?
      Thank you for all the help you have offered
      I fill my heart with fire, with passion, passion for what makes me nostalgic. A unique perspective fuels my fire, makes me discover new passions, more nostalgia. I love it.

      "People tell dreamers to reality check and realize this is the real world and not one of fantasies, but little do they know that for us Lucid Dreamers, it all starts when the RC fails"
      Add me as a friend!!!

    17. #267
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      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      I have one more question.
      Does ADA reduce the effect of ADSA(RRC)? I read the whole thread of ADA right or wrong for lucidity.
      It is that self-awareness, memory and environmental awareness(ADA) can be of benefit together, but still there is a hindering of some sort. So, better if I practice ADSA and memory with some environmental awareness with my RC?
      Thank you for all the help you have offered.
      Is "ADSA" a a new acronym, or did I miss a memo? Please don't tell me I used it first, because I don't remember even discussing it! Still, if it stands for ADA with Self-Awareness, then it is an interesting term. However, it would still not equal a RRC, so if someone said practicing ADA with self-awareness is an RRC, they were not correct -- even if it was me! If you could let me know where you found this term, I'd appreciate it -- just so I can throw up a quick clarifying post about the difference (pretty much copying the following).

      ADA, as I understand it, is a technique involving the sensate absorption of as many details in your physical environment as you can, as often as you can, with a mind to simply focus on them all, period. I could be a little off on that, but even if a little off, that activity runs anathema to RRC's, which involve taking a moment to sincerely wonder about your interaction with your local reality, and to do so in a fairly nebulous, or global way. In other words, specific physical details do not matter in RRC's; only general memories, actions, and intentions for action, along with your consideration about the effects of all that. This seems very much the opposite of ADA, so I'm not sure it is right to combine the two into one term.

      That said, practicing ADA while also doing RRC's, only not at the same time, seems a fine thing to do. It never hurts to hone your senses and beef up your perception, and if you can combine the results of ADA (a strong sense of your physical surroundings, and an understanding that they need to be considered) with a strong sense of self (the result of RRC's, perhaps, plus any number of other activities or introspections), then LD'ing will be that much easier.

      I firmly believe, and I think that thread finally concluded, that ADA on its own is not enough for lucidity. To be lucid you must nurture your mind as well as your senses. No matter how strong your sense of physical awareness is, you will not be lucid in dreams without a strong sense of self. You must also develop a strong sense of self-awareness, memory skills, and expectation/intentions (aka: the fundamentals!) to prepare your waking-life self-awareness to join you in a dream.

      So yes, ADA is fine for your senses, and would certainly be an aid to becoming lucid. But it must be done in addition to whatever you're doing to develop your self-awareness, and certainly not at the same time, as the two are not compatible. In other words, an RRC is not ADA with self-awareness, by any measure -- so "ADASA" is an incorrect term, in my opinion. Perhaps ADASA could be an overall term used by someone who is practicing ADA while also doing some sort of self-awareness development (like RRC's), but I do not think that is what you meant.

      Here's a more specific answer to your actual question:

      Yes, if done at the same time as a (correctly done) RRC, ADA would certainly reduce the effect of that RRC, if not negating it altogether. By the same token, the RRC would also reduce the the effect of ADA. So,the term ADASA is not the same as RRC -- .

      Yes, there would be a hindering of some sort, in that ADA elevates the importance of your immediate physical environment, while correctly done RRC's pretty much ignore it. Though ultimately strong skills in both activities would help lucidity (and you in general), practicing ADA and RRC's at the same time simply will not work, as the two are intellectually incompatible.

      No, it is not better if you practice ADASA (assuming it is simply a renaming of RRC's) with some environmental awareness with your RC. Indeed, you shouldn't even be doing RRC's at the same time as RC's, because they sort of negate each other as well! These -- ADA, RRC's, and RC's -- are all standalone techniques, each meant to nurture a different aspect of your consciousness... trying to combine them all would be confusing, and assuming they are all the same thing is both incorrect and will prevent you from appreciating their intended results.

      I hope this made sense. If it didn't please ask again, because this is important.

    18. #268
      Please, call me Louai <span class='glow_008000'>LouaiB</span>'s Avatar
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      Thnx^^
      What I meant by ADSA is honing your self-awareness to the level that it is "on" all the day, without environmental awareness, so it is RRC all day long. I read it in the thread "ADA, right or wrong for lucidity" in the initial post. So, honing the skill of self-awareness till it reaches all day self-aware, then it is like doing RRC all day long, so you can't do RC or ADA at all, or they will hinder each other, right?
      I am currently doing RRC with RC, but I think I will reduce my RC only to involve noticing dreamlikeness, or is it better complietly without RC?
      Also, MILD(the prospective memory training and intention parts), with the fundamentals and WILD, DEILD would be a great combination?
      Sorry for the misunderstanding, my mistake
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    19. #269
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      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      What I meant by ADSA is honing your self-awareness to the level that it is "on" all the day, without environmental awareness, so it is RRC all day long. I read it in the thread "ADA, right or wrong for lucidity" in the initial post.
      Okay, that's definitely different. If you are focusing on self-awareness all day, then you're in a sense not doing ADA (as it is known on these forums, anyway) at all. I'm pretty sure that doing an RRC all day is likely physically and logically impossible, or at least would make the person attempting it very, very tired. I have a feeling that just maintaining a constant sense of self-awareness all day (without the RRC exercise) is just short of impossible for most of us -- though, yes, if you were fully self-aware all day, LD'ing (and a lot of other things) would be a snap.

      So, honing the skill of self-awareness till it reaches all day self-aware, then it is like doing RRC
      Again, no it is not. An RRC is a specific, short-term exercise to remind you to be self-aware, or at least to remind you to be aware of your own significance in your immediate environment. If you should achieve a state of being self-aware all day, you would not be doing and RRC all day; indeed, you wouldn't need to do one at all.

      ...so you can't do RC or ADA at all, or they will hinder each other, right?
      A constantly self-aware person would likely still find value in ADA, and would certainly be able to do the practice; as long as you are not confusing self-awareness with natural awareness (which you would not do if self-aware all day) then practicing ADA would do no harm, and might help a self-aware person keep her attention skills nicely honed. And yes, if you are constantly self-aware, I can't imagine a need for RC's at all; though they wouldn't hinder, they would likely just seem a little silly.

      I am currently doing RRC with RC, but I think I will reduce my RC only to involve noticing dreamlikeness, or is it better complietly without RC?
      I personally believe the RRC is best when done by itself -- perhaps with an RC thrown in at the end, as a sort of period to the exercise, but I have chatted with people who have successfully integrated RC's into their RRC "state of mind" with some success. So you could certainly try it both ways, and work toward the exercise(s) that is best for you.

      Also, MILD(the prospective memory training and intention parts), with the fundamentals and WILD, DEILD would be a great combination?
      Absolutely! MILD on its own is a valuable technique for achieving WILD's and DILD's (neither of which are techniques, BTW, but descriptors for a change in mind-state), and to me it is important to learn to become lucid through either the WILD or DILD routes, so that you can do them as needed, based on timing (when you're attempting to be lucid) or convenience.


      Sorry for the misunderstanding, my mistake
      No worries! I just wanted to be sure we were clear, and that you didn't think there is a thing called ADASA... there are enough initials flying around this place as it is!


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      Ok, no more ADASA.
      Just let me get everything straight:

      RC: to see a dreamlike thing in waking life and RCing isn't effective, since in a dream, you would notice a dreamlike thing, but lack memory to remember that it is unnatural.

      ADA: Again, seeing a dreamlike thing doesn't mean lucidity. We all have ADA in our instinct, and the problem is memory, so practesing ADA won't be so effective, because it is not the issue.

      Self-awareness: We practice RRC to increase our self-awareness, but in time, will it become second nature, that we will have a sense of self-awareness most of the time without performing RRC at the moment?

      When we become skilled at self-awareness, we will know that the dream is from our creation, and we will become lucid. Why? Is it because a biological factor? Does self-awareness stimulate the part of the brain that is responsible for lucidity?

      I really hope I am not bothering you with my over-numbered questions.
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      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      RC: to see a dreamlike thing in waking life and RCing isn't effective, since in a dream, you would notice a dreamlike thing, but lack memory to remember that it is unnatural.
      Though tend to agree with this, let me clarify quickly what LaBerge originally intended a RC to be:

      A reality check is a physical means for determining that the state you are currently is not a dream. In the simplest of terms, all you do is find an action that you can use to do this test (i.e., like looking at a clock, looking away, and then looking back, to see if the time has changed, or if the clock is even still there). While you're doing this test, you ask yourself -- sincerely -- "Is this a dream?."

      Now, though it is good to practice RC's during the day at any time, it is also good to do an RC during the day whenever you see something very odd, under the assumption that you'll carry that habit into your dreams where everything is odd. Funny thing: though I practice RC's regularly to this day, I have never, ever, induced a LD by doing a RC during a dream... as you said, if we lack the memory to recognize something as odd, then the odd really doesn't happen in a dream until after you're lucid and remembering, and then you don't need to do the RC anymore.

      ADA: Again, seeing a dreamlike thing doesn't mean lucidity. We all have ADA in our instinct, and the problem is memory, so practesing ADA won't be so effective, because it is not the issue.
      Yes, and well said.

      Self-awareness: We practice RRC to increase our self-awareness, but in time, will it become second nature, that we will have a sense of self-awareness most of the time without performing RRC at the moment?
      Pretty much. I doubt RRC's are the only tool to achieve optimum self-awareness, but they will certainly help keep you on the path, And, when self-awareness becomes second-nature (because, believe it or not, it is not second nature, um, naturally), there will be no need for RRC's.

      When we become skilled at self-awareness, we will know that the dream is from our creation, and we will become lucid.
      Yes. Except you have the order slightly wrong. Thanks to our enhanced self-awareness skills, we will become lucid, and then we will know that the dream is from our creation, making lucidity all the more powerful and our dreamscape all the more malleable. Not much of a difference, I know, but I figured it was worth mentioning.

      Why? Is it because a biological factor? Does self-awareness stimulate the part of the brain that is responsible for lucidity?
      Honestly? I haven't a clue. It probably is that self-awareness gets just the right neurons to fire in a "custom" hard-wiring sort of way, as you say, or that self-awareness "tricks" your unconscious into thinking that waking-life activity is going on, thus freeing up access to your memory without accidentally triggering your reticular system (the bit of your brain that wakes you up). Or, self-awareness is a condition unto itself, existing outside the confines of normal brain activity, and, if you bring it into a dream with you, you can witness what's going on with the rest of you without it ever finding out... I've always been a fan of that last one, BTW! (I could go on for quite a time with theories about this, but in a sense they're all meaningless and little more than a self-serving distraction, so I won't).

      I really hope I am not bothering you with my over-numbered questions.
      Not at all! It's why I started this thread!
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      A Quick P.S.:

      While I was misunderstanding LouaiB in the conversation above, I took some time to read that ADA: Right or Wrong thread, and noticed that it was not as bad as I remembered: if you set aside the bouts of sophomoric, self-important bullshit that me and King Yoshi childishly exchanged, there is a lot of helpful information about the usefulness of ADA in that thread.

      Just sayin'
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      Im starting to think also that self awareness is pretty much all you need to have lucid dreams. Since you learn to attention whats happening to you and learning looking at it the experience from neutral vie. If someone with low self awareness does something that they normally wouldnt like get angry or sad they never question what would be causing it but if someone who has high self awareness and something sees themselfs become angry or if something new happens they imdientally notice it that it isnt normal and starts observe themself more. So if you easily recall memories in new events to see if it new to you instead of you except it to be not worth thinking over or you dont notice them it in dream then you are more likely to know the situation is weird and making you look at the situation you are in and realize you are dreaming. Is this what you meant?
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    24. #274
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      A Quick P.S.:

      While I was misunderstanding LouaiB in the conversation above, I took some time to read that ADA: Right or Wrong thread, and noticed that it was not as bad as I remembered: if you set aside the bouts of sophomoric, self-important bullshit that me and King Yoshi childishly exchanged, there is a lot of helpful information about the usefulness of ADA in that thread.

      Just sayin'
      As I would conclude,ADA, for you to become lucid, is typically noticing the dream "feeling", so next time you have it,you would become lucid. It's like an always existing dream sign. But, I would say that ADA is bad. Maybe it increases the details in dreams so you can get a better sense of the dream feeling, but you can do even better in one LD(set a goal to memorize the feeling)! And, you still need to practice self-awareness and memory, because ADA alone still won't help.
      So, I think it's better without ADA, just MILD or WILD, then , after having a few LDs with the goal to memorize the dream feeling, you will use your self-awareness and memory to recognize the feeling that you have memorized next time in a dream, thus becoming lucid.
      So, doing this will yield better results than ADA, and will not hinder self-awareness in any way.
      Last edited by LouaiB; 01-03-2014 at 06:58 AM. Reason: Be clearer
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      Setliez:

      Yes, I think this could be seen as basically what I meant...still, I found a couple of spots to comment upon:

      Quote Originally Posted by Seltiez View Post
      Im starting to think also that self awareness is pretty much all you need to have lucid dreams.
      Don't forget about memory and expectation/intention, the other fundamentals. Though self-awareness is the driver of lucidity, those other two bits definitely ought to be along for the ride, as they each provide vital support for becoming lucid and then maximizing your lucid dream experience. But you probably already know that, and won't forget, so back to attention:

      Since you learn to attention whats happening to you and learning looking at it the experience from neutral vie.
      Be careful of being too neutral, especially in the context dream work. Self-awareness is almost a realization that you are not neutral, ever, and cannot truly separate yourself from the events of your local reality. In waking life it is somewhat possible to take a step back and simply observe the effects of, say, something you just said or did to another person, and that is certainly valuable. But in a dream you can never forget that everything in the dream is you, or attempt to "step back" and assume that there is a force greater than you driving the dream (unless of course you lean in mystical directions, but even then you are starting in your own dream, so some attachment is important).

      If someone with low self awareness does something that they normally wouldnt like get angry or sad they never question what would be causing it but if someone who has high self awareness and something sees themselfs become angry or if something new happens they imdientally notice it that it isnt normal and starts observe themself more.
      Absolutely! But there is more, I think, especially when practicing self-awareness in waking-life:

      Not only can a person with strong self-awareness observe their actions, they can anticipate their upcoming actions, emotions, even thoughts. This anticipation allows them to do something about unwanted or painful events before they ever happen, should there be a need*. For instance, let's say that you are in a conversation with a particular person that is heading to a place where you have been with her many times; a bad place, one of useless disagreement or anger, negative emotions, and one that to date has always arrived at an emotional explosion with clockwork inevitability. Now let's say you've got your self-awareness with you when that conversation begins: now you can anticipate the upcoming emotional train-wreck and do something about it before it happens. Pretty cool, I think!

      * Such ability does come with responsibility, though, as sometimes these difficult conversations (for instance) need to happen in order to move a relationship or series of events positively forward, and you have to be careful not to fully avoid it, just because it might be difficult for you... of course, a self-aware person would likely be okay with that, because he would know that self-awareness is a potentially powerful social tool, and would know to wield it responsibly!


      So if you easily recall memories in new events to see if it new to you instead of you except it to be not worth thinking over or you dont notice them it in dream then you are more likely to know the situation is weird and making you look at the situation you are in and realize you are dreaming. Is this what you meant?
      I'm not sure what you meant here, but I'm going to say yes, anyway.

      Why? because if you are self-aware in a dream, with access to memory, then you will indeed have no problem recognizing (rather than summarily accepting or dismissing) weird stuff in dreams. But it's more than that, I think. If you are self-aware in a dream, you are already past the point of needing to recognize the weirdness, like remembering that your house does not sit at the edge of a thousand-foot cliff.

      A strong sense of self-awareness, especially one that is accessed with ease, pretty much negates the need to do anything to realize you are dreaming (like RC's), because you will just know you are dreaming. The trick, of course, is coaxing that self-awareness into the dream. WILD is a good way to do it, of course, but making things like RRC's a regular exercise, building strong expectations so your dreams themselves trigger your memory (and thus "wake up" your self-awareness), or doing RC's often and sincerely in waking life all offer tools for elevating self-awareness with a thought.

      Okay, I'm rambling. I could have stopped after the 12th word of this post, but I guess that wouldn't have been me at all. Also, it's late and my brain is mildly addled, so if I misunderstood anything you said, or if anything I said made no sense at all, let me know.
      Last edited by Sageous; 01-03-2014 at 07:06 AM.
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