Thread: What happened? Post Your WILD Attempts, Good or Bad, Here

Attempted a WILD attempt 8 hours after I went to sleep, I lied there still for about 30 minutes, counting timed with my breath and started over counting whenever I lost count. On the side, I visualized the dream I'd like to be at.

After about 25 minutes or so, Flashing lights appeared and my breathing got erratic and inconsistent, I normalized it within a second or two, but I think it was enough to give me away so I got up.

Either way, this felt like a good meditation session, the counting really reduced my conscious thought and seemed to work well.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ I guess I treat naps just like I do WBTB. I definitely only attempt WILD/DEILD during naps, though accidental DILD's have occurred many times. This is probably because REM is very likely during naps, and you never quite enter a deep enough sleep that would break up a WILD attempt and make DILD necessary.

Also, if I'm napping more than a few hours after waking, I don't bother at all. This may just be my experience, but it seems that, once my night's sleep is well behind me, my dreaming mind has no real interest in working with me. So naps more than three or four hours after waking just don't produce LD's. So if you're like me at all, it may be that you're taking many of your naps too late.

And yeah, if you get most of your success at times that are not napping, it could be that they're not right for you. It's all a matter of timing, and if you've got the timing down, then stick to it; no sense trying to produce LD's at times when your mind simply isn't into it!

You're the best Sageous! Thank you once again...I think I will give nap-wilding some more tries but only within a few hours after waking before ruling it out. And I can go back to my occasional very restful non-LD related 20 minute naps if it is later after waking up.

Ali 1234, try to be patient. I'm sure you did not mean it this way but a full sentence in all caps comes across as shouting sometimes. Sageous is a valuable asset (& friend) around here that we don't want to chase off.

Originally Posted by Ali1234

Hi, I have been attempting to reach lucid dreams through wild techneque whole this week it is my first time trying to have lucid dreams ... and the result is negative because it either ends with insomnia or normal Sleep

Some people advised me to wake up after 4:30 hours of normal sleep and then it would be easier .. the Problem is that I used to wake up after 4 hours and Stay awake for 45 minutes then go back to sleep .. I don't sleep all my 8 hours in one sleep

So I'd ask you Some questions:
- how much time do I need to have a Successful wild attempt week .. two ..... month since I'm a beginner?

- Is there any hope to have a successful wild at the beginning of the Sleep at night? or I have to wake up after 4:30 hours?

- WBTB is a real technique?
how much it is successfull?
what should I do?

I'm so disappointed, sad, angry, feeling bad because of those failed attempts huuhhh

SO WHAT SHOULD I DO? Please answer

Hi Ali1234! I'm a relative newbie (in LD training for about 20 days) too but I think I can point you in the right direction. The LD experts will chime in if I mess anything up.

1) You need to spend time reading the excellent introductory resources on this and other sites. There is a ton of material here and elsewhere, a lot of reading is involved to truly educate yourself in terms of your first steps and in terms of setting your expectations. This will give you a clear path of study and training (and believe me, it involves both, there is no magic "lie down, wait, and all of a sudden you're in your own personal play-land" technique) to pursue lucid dreaming.

2) You need to spend effort increasing your dream recall. This involves waking up during the night (and preferably learning to do this without an alarm) so you can record your dreams in a dream journal. There are lots of tutorial messages on this site to get you started on this. Without good recall you may be having lucid dreams and just not remember them! Working actively and consistently on dream recall also signals your subconcsious that lucid dreaming is important to you. Regularly recording and working on expanding your dream recall boost the vividness of your normal dreams as well.

3) You need to start becoming aware of the world around you and developing a habit of seriously questioning whether or not your are dreaming. This habit will eventually carry over into your dreams and you will become lucid. This takes time, it's a different amount for everyone depending on your dedication, motivation, etc. Again, detailed instructions on how you go about doing this are available on this and other sites.

4) get enough sleep and develop a regular sleep schedule! If you're underslept your recall will be worse.

5) Recognize that WILD is not recommended for those just entering the whole lucid dreaming training experience. For one thing, it helps to have already had lucid dreams to be familiar with how they "feel". For another, the training I reference up above, building your concentration, visualization, relaxation, and intention setting are all critical for a successful WILD attempt.

Sure there are people who will say "I did XYZ-ILD and I had a lucid dream the very first time!" The fact is for the majority of people it takes time, effort, and dedication.

Mind set is incredibly powerful in the path to lucid dreaming. If you're frustrated and dejected instead of eager and anticipating your lucid dreams, they may not come at all.

So take a step back, do some reading, get your dream recall up (one of the prominent LD researchers in the world writes that unless you can recall at least one dream a night for 7 nights in a row, you're not ready yet to try lucid dreaming), and perhaps pursue a DILD technique like MILD to start.

Hope that helps!

I tried to WILD in a Nap Today and saw
bright lights. After that, I seemed to
jump between the real and the dream world.
Everything i imagined became "real" for a few seconds,
but i wasn't tired enough to go completely into the dream world.
Tonight, i'm going to try WILD with WBTB.

Thanks fryingMan .. I think it is better to. Start with DILD

Well FryingMan, if you aren't going to get a big thank you from Ali1234, I will give you a big thank you for taking the time to type all of those excellent tips!Thank you FryingMan! Ali1234 did say "thanks" but it just felt understated and almost dismissive after all of that help you sent his way...anyway, best of luck to you both! (liked as well)

PS...Perhaps I read too much into it...If so, my apologies.

Wow; busy day!

Ali1234:

First, listen to Fryingman, as his advice is sound and well-considered. Now some thoughts:

I have been attempting to reach lucid dreams through wild technique whole this week it is my first time trying to have lucid dreams ... and the result is negative because it either ends with insomnia or normal Sleep

That is a very short amount of time to be practicing; be prepared to give yourself a lot more time before you have your first and second LD (number 2 is always the real success, I think), and definitely don't judge your efforts a failure after just one week!

Some people advised me to wake up after 4:30 hours of normal sleep and then it would be easier .. the Problem is that I used to wake up after 4 hours and Stay awake for 45 minutes then go back to sleep .. I don't sleep all my 8 hours in one sleep

Actually, a habit of splitting your night's sleep can be beneficial to learning WILD... for instance, you have no need to set an alarm clock.

- how much time do I need to have a Successful wild attempt week .. two ..... month since I'm a beginner?

You need as much time as it takes. Sorry, there is no norm; some people have their first LD's in a day, while other ultimately successful LD'ers take months or longer to get to their first successful dive.

- Is there any hope to have a successful wild at the beginning of the Sleep at night? or I have to wake up after 4:30 hours?

A WILD at the beginning of a night's sleep is possible, but highly unlikely, especially without lots of LD'ing (and probably meditation) experience already under your belt. This is because REM periods are farther apart at the beginning of sleep, taking as long as 90 minutes just to appear at the start of the night, and it can be extremely difficult to maintain waking-life self-awareness during NREM periods. So yes, there is hope, but maybe later. If you wish to start your LD'ing experience at bedtime, consider (as you already may be doing) trying DILD with MILD.

- WBTB is a real technique? how much it is successfull? what should I do?

Though WBTB is literally a technique, it is not a stand-alone activity -- you will not have LD's just by waking up, moving around for a bit, and going back to bed. However, it is an integral part of WILD, so I suggest you include it. Also, I highly recommend that you read through the course of which this thread is a part; I think you'll find it most helpful, and that it will answer all these questions and more. As Fryingman already noted, you should take some time to learn about WILD before giving up on it; there really is more to it than just lying down, holding still, and waiting.

I'm so disappointed, sad, angry, feeling bad because of those failed attempts

It is way too soon to start feeling that way, and, sadly, that kind of negativity will only make LD's less likely. Try to be positive!


Empty Bucket

Attempted a WILD attempt 8 hours after I went to sleep, I lied there still for about 30 minutes, counting timed with my breath and started over counting whenever I lost count. On the side, I visualized the dream I'd like to be at.

After about 25 minutes or so, Flashing lights appeared and my breathing got erratic and inconsistent, I normalized it within a second or two, but I think it was enough to give me away so I got up.

Either way, this felt like a good meditation session, the counting really reduced my conscious thought and seemed to work well.

You seem to have everything in place except a willingness to hang in there just a bit longer! 30 minutes is not very long; try not to abandon your effort too soon. Also, though it was good you got past the flashing lights and erratic breathing (aka, unimportant noise), it seems you still maintained their importance by allowing them to interrupt your dive. You might try to see stuff like that as nothing more than a landmark, rather than a distraction or a threat to making it to the dream.

All around nice work though; next time?!


Bambooz:

I tried to WILD in a Nap Today and saw bright lights. After that, I seemed to jump between the real and the dream world. Everything i imagined became "real" for a few seconds, but i wasn't tired enough to go completely into the dream world. Tonight, i'm going to try WILD with WBTB.

Nice try! You should probably be doing WBTB with every effort, especially in the beginning. Also, please be sure to look into my WILD class for better preparation. Good luck!

Fogelbise:

I think I will give nap-wilding some more tries but only within a few hours after waking before ruling it out. And I can go back to my occasional very restful non-LD related 20 minute naps if it is later after waking up.

Sounds like a plan! Naps are indeed a good thing, LD or no...

I have tried WILD 3 times. I laid comfortably on my bed, closed my eyes and focused on my breath. After 10 minutes, as I witnessed my breath changing, I felt getting heavier and heavier, and my eyes started to move FAST. I kept my mind focused, but after 2-3 minutes I lost it and I had to do it again, but light was so damn distracting. Today I woke up from an ordinary sleep but I tried it before I got up from bed, and failed. What should I do ? (except from doing it in a dark place, lol)

Originally Posted by EternalMystic

I have tried WILD 3 times. I laid comfortably on my bed, closed my eyes and focused on my breath. After 10 minutes, as I witnessed my breath changing, I felt getting heavier and heavier, and my eyes started to move FAST. I kept my mind focused, but after 2-3 minutes I lost it and I had to do it again, but light was so damn distracting. Today I woke up from an ordinary sleep but I tried it before I got up from bed, and failed. What should I do ? (except from doing it in a dark place, lol)

Well, start with reading messages #579 and #583 just above . Describe your full LD regimen, describe your sleep schedule, your history with LD, etc.

Originally Posted by EternalMystic

I have tried WILD 3 times. I laid comfortably on my bed, closed my eyes and focused on my breath. After 10 minutes, as I witnessed my breath changing, I felt getting heavier and heavier, and my eyes started to move FAST. I kept my mind focused, but after 2-3 minutes I lost it and I had to do it again, but light was so damn distracting. Today I woke up from an ordinary sleep but I tried it before I got up from bed, and failed. What should I do ? (except from doing it in a dark place, lol)

What you might want to do is carefully read the course of which this thread is a part. That way you'll see that there is much more to WILD than lying down and holding still, and that those things you encounter on the way, like moving eyes, weightiness, and changes in breath are just noise that ought to be ignored.

Maybe this belongs elsewhere than in this thread, but it would be interesting with your ideas about this. It seems like I having a rough time with my dream control these days. In my WILD the other day I mentioned earlier it felt like I had control of everything, since I truly knew it was created by my imagination. But in the DILDs I've had afterwards it felt like I try really hard to achieve a change, but I'm still just able to interact with the dream. In the way you interact with things in real life, not changing things as if it was the dream it really is.

Last night I tried to fly and found myself lying on my back on the ground. I did a couple of more tries saying to myself that it would work. I also screamed "more light!" and nothing happened. Then I closed my eyes and tried to spin around to move myself elsewhere. I was still where I was before I closed my eyes. So I spent my dream in the dark. But the I at least was able to stop a car and had an interesting conversation with the DC driving it.

I think what I could do is to work more on my reverse reality checks. And when in a dream try to imagine more what would happen the next moment. Really be fully aware of that I possess the ability to change whatever around me. Is there any "hands on" way to do this in a DILD? I know it's a WILD class, but my DILDs are a product I my failed attempts

^^ You are correct, Paperplane, that question doesn't belong here. Not only is this not a Q&A thread, but also dream control is almost an unrelated subject (you can be very lucid with no control, and have great control with no lucidity). But here we are, so:

I think what I could do is to work more on my reverse reality checks. And when in a dream try to imagine more what would happen the next moment. Really be fully aware of that I possess the ability to change whatever around me. Is there any "hands on" way to do this in a DILD? I know it's a WILD class, but my DILDs are a product I my failed attempts

Though some believe that WILD, thanks to its maintenance of self-awareness throughout the dive, is a better vehicle for dream control than DILD, I tend to disagree. Once you're in a dream and aware of it, your level of lucidity is up to you; it does not matter how you got to the dream. The same goes for control, though, as I say below, there are other factors involved.

I think the first step you might take is considering that you can reach the highest levels of lucidity in a DILD, and anything you could do in a WILD ought to be able to be done in a DILD. If your mindset and expectation assumes reduced results from DILD, you will have reduced results.

Control itself is subject to a lot of things, including the state of your dream, where you are in your sleep cycle, your expectations, and, of course, the presence of your self-awareness and memory. A dip or rise in any of these things can effect your control, no matter how lucid you might think you are. If your control levels are low, and you want them high, try not to just shout at the dream but rather gather your self, relax, and try to remember your specific goals for that dream. Doing an RRC is an excellent idea as well, I think. Even then you might not be able to control the dream (because of those other factors), at least you'll have enough presence of mind to enjoy where you are anyway, or perhaps to simply close your dream eyes and pause, in the hopes that when you open them your dreamworld will be a different place (this is always worth the try, by the way!).

I know this was a very brief response, but I hope it helped. If it didn't, then ask again -- but I suggest you do so on the lucid dreaming fundamentals thread, where it seems a better fit.

Yes, Im sorry for going off topic in my last post, but thank you for your good answer and taking your time to do so. You gave me som valuble ideas to play with.

I think the first step you might take is considering that you can reach the highest levels of lucidity in a DILD, and anything you could do in a WILD ought to be able to be done in a DILD. If your mindset and expectation assumes reduced results from DILD, you will have reduced results.

I see what you mean, it's all about setting intensions, expectations and positive thinking. If I doubt I will succeed I probably wont, not in WILDing nor in anything else in dreams/waken life.. I did not think about it in this context, but of course its a part of the mental preps in your sessions.

I will definetly try th RRC next time Im in a lucid dream, it sounds like this is someting that will both be a boost the level of lucidity and get me an interesting dreaming experience. Really feel how the dream effects me and how I effect the dream, start to rebuild it from there.

I will seek the right sub-forum next time. I appreciate you adivise, not brief at all.

I tried it 3-4 times at noon today. I always made it to the ''lights'' but then I was scared to continue and opened my eyes....I know, i'm a ''kitten''

^^ Perhaps not a kitten, but definitely paying too much attention to the noise!

Don't be concerned about the "lights," they are likely just HI. See them instead as bright signposts indicating that the dream is just around the corner. Then stay calm, and keep those eyes closed!

I finally found out, where one of my rem cycles is, and tried the FILD technique.
After ~10 seconds, my finger movement suddenly did not feel real anymore.
It felt like i was moving my fingers, but they didn't really move.
I also heard REALLY loud music, played on an accordion.
Another 10 seconds later, i suddenly felt, that i was in a dream. (but i was still lying in my dream bed)
I got extemly excited, and woke up immediately. :<
Tonight, i will not fail at this point. c:
I think, FILD is a very easy WILD technique.

I've had now my first lucid dream (yay!). It was from MILD, which I'm still going to focus on as a primary. I think taking a multi-tech approach will lead to the most opportunities for LD, so I'd like to try to develop them all in parallel, so I'm going to seriously study the WILD sessions here and report on progress when I do try WILDing.

I've tried unplanned WILDs several times. Usually I try WILD when I'm falling asleep slowly after MILD visualisations, and notice the phases of the onset of sleep: the "all body buzz" as I call it, the HI and HH.

This morning after a fairly long sleepless period (I was bummed, due to alertness and noise/interruptions I missed the juicy 7 hours after bedtime REM period -- question: if you "miss" a period due to insomnia, and you get back to sleep later, what happens? Does your sleep phases pick up right where they left off, or do you go into the phases that would have been later if you had not been awake?), and after things calmed down in the house, I finally got to falling asleep again.

I got to the point where the feeling of my physical body was reduced. I noticed for the first time a "dream body" feeling: I was lying on my side (normal sleeping position), arms crossed in front of me hugging a pillow. I felt as if my arms were "slipping" from their position, so that there were moving / being pulled to extending out straight from me. I knew this was a body distortion / illusion and that my real arms were still crossed, I could simultaneously focus my attention on either the real arms or the dream arms.

I thought I may be close to something at this point, but I had no idea of what mentally to do at that point. So I decided to re-read all the sessions and to get more advice/input. I think at one point I had a sudden "flash" of a dream scene that vanished pretty fast.

Congratulations on your first LD, Fryingman! Now on to the second!

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I've had now my first lucid dream (yay!). It was from MILD, which I'm still going to focus on as a primary. I think taking a multi-tech approach will lead to the most opportunities for LD, so I'd like to try to develop them all in parallel, so I'm going to seriously study the WILD sessions here and report on progress when I do try WILDing.

Learning all the ways to an LD is always the best route to take, because how you get there is, in the end, incidental, and related only to timing and mindset (ie, DILD when your mind is prepped but you have no time to WBTB, WILD when you're prepared for a direct dive). It was fitting that it was MILD that you used (MILD is the only actual technique, BTW: DILD and WILD are shifts in consciousness states, not techniques), as the mnemonic basics of MILD are also the basics of becoming lucid in the first place. So good choices all around; no wonder you got lucid!

I've tried unplanned WILDs several times.

Unplanned WILD's are not a good idea, unless you are always mentally prepared to LD, and you try them (even if unplanned) are at the times you are most likely will have them, and you still include some WBTB. Just waking up in the night and deciding, "Hey, I'm going to WILD right now," usually results in a quick return to non-lucid sleep.

Usually I try WILD when I'm falling asleep slowly after MILD visualisations, and notice the phases of the onset of sleep: the "all body buzz" as I call it, the HI and HH.

Actually, you were doing a WILD all along, if you never lost awareness. You were simply using MILD to prepare your mind, which is a good thing to do... MILD is a pretty flexible technique, and can be used to induce WILD's as well as DILD's. More on your "noise" report in a second.

This morning after a fairly long sleepless period (I was bummed, due to alertness and noise/interruptions I missed the juicy 7 hours after bedtime REM period -- question: if you "miss" a period due to insomnia, and you get back to sleep later, what happens? Does your sleep phases pick up right where they left off, or do you go into the phases that would have been later if you had not been awake?), and after things calmed down in the house, I finally got to falling asleep again.

If you have insomnia, then you never went to sleep, right? Therefore, your sleep cycles won't start up until you finally do fall asleep. If it was just a few hours of sleeplessness, you probably won't see much of a difference in NREM/REM periods (i.e., even though it's been five hours since you went to bed, you'll still need 90 minutes or so of NREM before a REM period starts).

If you were sleeping for a while (which I think is what you were describing), and there's less than a 1-2 hour gap of wakefulness before you fall asleep again, you will likely simply continue your sleep cycle. However, if the noises that woke you up were too distracting and set your brain to full wakefulness, or, worse, if you got up and participated in the activities, you'll likelly find yourself starting your sleep cycle all over again, even if you're back to sleep in less than 2 hours. This is because the waking-life activity switched off your brain's sleeping program, and it would have to reboot once you go back to sleep.

And no, your brain is not on a timer; if you are asleep for two hours, and then awake and active for three hours, you will not find yourself in your sixth hour of a sleep cycle when you go back to sleep. At best, you will find yourself in the third hour of the cycle -- as long as you were able to ignore the waking-life distractions and keep your brain calm and dreamy.

So, if you're intent on LD'ing, and maintaining your sleep cycle, if something wakes you up, try to hang onto your mental prep, your dreamy thoughts, and try to avoid involving your mind in waking-life activity.

I got to the point where the feeling of my physical body was reduced. I noticed for the first time a "dream body" feeling: I was lying on my side (normal sleeping position), arms crossed in front of me hugging a pillow. I felt as if my arms were "slipping" from their position, so that there were moving / being pulled to extending out straight from me. I knew this was a body distortion / illusion and that my real arms were still crossed, I could simultaneously focus my attention on either the real arms or the dream arms.

I thought I may be close to something at this point, but I had no idea of what mentally to do at that point. So I decided to re-read all the sessions and to get more advice/input. I think at one point I had a sudden "flash" of a dream scene that vanished pretty fast.

Okay, I know you've heard this from me before, but you must try harder to disregard the noise. Yes, you can use the "all body buzz" or a sensation of your arms drifting as welcome signposts on the way to your dream, but focusing on them will only distract you and disrupt your journey to the dream. Try not to make these things too important, no matter how cool they might be. That sensation of your arms "drifting" was not a sensation of a dream body, BTW, but just more HI; you don't have a dream body until you're actually dreaming.

Speaking of not dreaming, that flash you got was probably a dreamlet. Dreamlets, or unformed bits of dream imagery, tend to occur when you are balancing on the fence between wake and sleep. Welcome them as mileposts too, but don't be disappointed when they quickly vanish, because that's what they do. Just enjoy them and move on. (note: there is one exception to this: you can use dreamlets to help form your dreams, for instance by remembering the images that appeared and using them to set the schema for your dream... this makes sense because you'll be using images your dreaming mind just produced, so you might be more in sync with it when the dream occurs)

Mentally, you should be doing nothing but repeating your mantra and/or focusing on your upcoming dream. Also, you should be holding onto your patience: if you held your awareness long enough to feel all that stuff, the dream might only be a few seconds away, waiting in the wings while your mind is occupied with the HI. Just stay focused on the dream, and not the noise!

And yes, rereading the sessions -- and doing the homework -- might be a good idea; I should do it myself!

Looking forward to hearing about your second LD...

Thank you Sageous for the info!

Mentally, you should be doing nothing but repeating your mantra and/or focusing on your upcoming dream. Also, you should be holding onto your patience: if you held your awareness long enough to feel all that stuff, the dream might only be a few seconds away, waiting in the wings while your mind is occupied with the HI. Just stay focused on the dream, and not the noise!

Thanks, this is the sort of info I was looking for. I just included the arms thing (which I did pay some attention to since it was new) to show how far along (or not) I may have been. It's good to know that I'm "close" with the dreamlets.

Re: unplanned WILDs. WBTB for me is just: recall, journal, bathroom, and MILD as fast as I can. With me it seems the clock is ticking: awake for more than like 5-10 minutes doing recall/journal/MILD and I risk being unable to sleep for hours.
I do not have the problem of falling asleep before I want to, 95%+ of the time it's the other way around, and that sucks because it wastes valuable dream time.

So my thinking is: if I cannot fall into ND to get a chance at DILD, at least I can try WILD and get more experience with it, rather than just lie there awake wasting time. Given this extra bit of info, if you could critique my thinking here and clarify when that makes sense and when it doesn't, given I've already slept at least 5 hours or so, I'd really appreciate it. (Like, what do you mean by mental prep here, if it's something other than what you mention in the sessions [RRCs?])

thanks!

Originally Posted by FryingMan

So my thinking is: if I cannot fall into ND to get a chance at DILD, at least I can try WILD and get more experience with it, rather than just lie there awake wasting time. Given this extra bit of info, if you could critique my thinking here and clarify when that makes sense and when it doesn't, given I've already slept at least 5 hours or so, I'd really appreciate it. (Like, what do you mean by mental prep here, if it's something other than what you mention in the sessions [RRCs?])

That sounds a little better (especially given the already had 5 hrs sleep bit + your specific -- if a bit speedy -- WBTB routine), and, if your head is in the right place, then you are not wasting your time. Mental prep to me is everything that puts your head in the right place: RRC's, RC's, journaling, thinking about your past dreams, planning your next dream, noticing the odd, noting dreamsigns, etc. It seems to me that you're doing your mental prep just fine, whether you know it or not!

So, if you've got all this LD'ing stuff swimming in your head already, and you're coming off a DILD attempt, and you already slept 5+ hours, and you're doing WBTB, I would guess that trying a WILD when you do is just fine, and might just work for you. Oh, and I think they would fall less into an "unplanned" category than an "impromptu but ready" category. And yeah, it never hurts to practice doing a WILD anyway. Go for it!

Originally Posted by Sageous

That sounds a little better (especially given the already had 5 hrs sleep bit + your specific -- if a bit speedy -- WBTB routine), and, if your head is in the right place, then you are not wasting your time. Mental prep to me is everything that puts your head in the right place: RRC's, RC's, journaling, thinking about your past dreams, planning your next dream, noticing the odd, noting dreamsigns, etc. It seems to me that you're doing your mental prep just fine, whether you know it or not!

So, if you've got all this LD'ing stuff swimming in your head already, and you're coming off a DILD attempt, and you already slept 5+ hours, and you're doing WBTB, I would guess that trying a WILD when you do is just fine, and might just work for you. Oh, and I think they would fall less into an "unplanned" category than an "impromptu but ready" category. And yeah, it never hurts to practice doing a WILD anyway. Go for it!

Thanks again! Yeah the total accumulated time seems for my WBTB (recall, journal, bathroom, MILD reps) seems to be no less than about 15 minutes actually. I'm thinking I may want to get that quicker.

Just got up: last night was a carbon copy of the night before with the above posts. ~5-6 hours of sleep, wake, recall, journal, bathroom, MILD reps, and....can't fall asleep. Grr! Looking at the timestamps on my smartphone (I use the voice recorder app for journaling), it was about 15 minutes between wake and ready to fall asleep again. Maybe I'm spending too much waking time trying to recall? I really want to not miss details of the dreams: I try to recall all scenes with as much detail as possible. Is there such a thing as "too much recall?" or at least spending too much time after waking trying to continue to reach and reach to recall as much as possible? I generally seem to spend about 5-10 minutes on recall every waking, mulling over the scenes, and just letting recall flow in. Is that too much (for me, who wakes up quickly?), or should I just be happy with what I can recall within a minute or two, then get BTB?

On the subject of WBTB and how long: just what is the goal, to wake up the brain, but not too much, as you note? If the goal is to get to the point where you're quite alert and it's almost too hard to fall asleep, I think I already have that with my little routine. I don't see the point of getting out of bed and sitting in a chair reading for 10, 20, 30 minutes or more if I already have trouble falling back to sleep....does that sound right? I suppose it's something to experiment with over time.

Anyway, I have something interesting to report, or I wouldn't have bothered with all this blabbing. This morning during the WILD attempt (after 6 hours sleep, recall/journal/bathroom/MILD reps, lay there unable to sleep, wife got up, closed window limiting street noise), I again had a number of very short little dreamless/scenes. I had the perception, true or not I'm not sure, that they lasted a liiiiiiiiitttle longer than yesterday's. Today's mantra went from: "Here I am..." to "Patience..." I liked "patience..." it helped me stay still amid little distractions, and to not "latch on" to anything at all, no noise, no HI/HH, etc. I changed positions from side to stomach after returning to near wakefulness after a while(I seem to fall asleep more easily in the mornings on my stomach when I have the bed to myself and can spread out), and continued.

and at one point, I felt that a dreamlet came, and it *stayed*. For 2, 3, maybe 4 seconds instead of a fraction of a second. I felt like I was there, it had a bit of the feeling of my first MILD LD. It was a winter scene overlooking a frozen lake. I voiced/thought to myself, "This is a dream" and instantly I was awake again in bed. Was this a successful short WILD? Or wishful thinking with a long dreamlet? I'm not sure, but it was something that felt new. I'm not even entirely sure that I didn't fall asleep into a ND, as I don't recall a "Patience...." repetition near to this happening. Hmm, maybe not ND after all...as I do recall as the dreamlet presented itself from nothingness to image.

At least it's more experience teetering on that WILD edge...

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Is there such a thing as "too much recall?" or at least spending too much time after waking trying to continue to reach and reach to recall as much as possible? I generally seem to spend about 5-10 minutes on recall every waking, mulling over the scenes, and just letting recall flow in. Is that too much (for me, who wakes up quickly?), or should I just be happy with what I can recall within a minute or two, then get BTB?

That's an interesting question. I would guess that there is a possibility of too much recall. Not so much on the recall side, but on the side that you're pressing your mind to cling to or retrieve fading memories, and that might be a bit too much activity during WBTB -- especially if you're truly intent on getting every detail. Definitely something to think about and experiment with, I think.

On the subject of WBTB and how long: just what is the goal, to wake up the brain, but not too much, as you note? If the goal is to get to the point where you're quite alert and it's almost too hard to fall asleep, I think I already have that with my little routine. I don't see the point of getting out of bed and sitting in a chair reading for 10, 20, 30 minutes or more if I already have trouble falling back to sleep....does that sound right? I suppose it's something to experiment with over time.

Yes, the point of WBTB is indeed primarily to give you a chance to gather your waking-life consciousness so that you can attempt a WILD with a good chance of maintaining self-awareness and memory. It's also a handy tool for giving you something to do while your body cycles around to the next REM cycle, so that you have a better chance of entering REM immediately.

The getting up part is pretty important, I think, because it really establishes that you are awake, and prevents you from groggily saying "I'm awake" while lying in bed, only to close your eyes and fall asleep immediately.

The time for WBTB definitely depends on you, but you might experiment with a couple of longer sessions, just to see what happens. Yes, if you stay up for an hour you might have some trouble falling asleep, but the result, when you do fall asleep might be a better chance at a LD. Why? I'm not sure, but it's probably because being up for a longer amount of time firmly establishes your waking-life self-awareness, thus giving you more to work with when you go back to sleep -- even if it takes a while to fall asleep. For myself, my WBTB's tend to last about a half-hour to an hour, and then I often take another half-hour easy to fall asleep. I also do pretty much nothing during the waking time, other than think about my dream goals. Funny thing: my best WILD's by far have been the ones where it seemed like I was never going to fall asleep, and I was awake in bed for an hour or more. That's just me, of course!

Anyway, I have something interesting to report, or I wouldn't have bothered with all this blabbing. This morning during the WILD attempt (after 6 hours sleep, recall/journal/bathroom/MILD reps, lay there unable to sleep, wife got up, closed window limiting street noise), I again had a number of very short little dreamless/scenes. I had the perception, true or not I'm not sure, that they lasted a liiiiiiiiitttle longer than yesterday's. Today's mantra went from: "Here I am..." to "Patience..." I liked "patience..." it helped me stay still amid little distractions, and to not "latch on" to anything at all, no noise, no HI/HH, etc. I changed positions from side to stomach after returning to near wakefulness after a while(I seem to fall asleep more easily in the mornings on my stomach when I have the bed to myself and can spread out), and continued.

Good mantra choice!

and at one point, I felt that a dreamlet came, and it *stayed*. For 2, 3, maybe 4 seconds instead of a fraction of a second. I felt like I was there, it had a bit of the feeling of my first MILD LD. It was a winter scene overlooking a frozen lake. I voiced/thought to myself, "This is a dream" and instantly I was awake again in bed. Was this a successful short WILD? Or wishful thinking with a long dreamlet? I'm not sure, but it was something that felt new. I'm not even entirely sure that I didn't fall asleep into a ND, as I don't recall a "Patience...." repetition near to this happening. Hmm, maybe not ND after all...as I do recall as the dreamlet presented itself from nothingness to image.

At least it's more experience teetering on that WILD edge...

Not so much teetering, I think; what you described sounds to me like an actual WILD, if a brief one. Waking up might have just been an unfortunate accident, but I think there was indeed a dream forming around you. Very cool!

Originally Posted by Sageous

The time for WBTB definitely depends on you, but you might experiment with a couple of longer sessions, just to see what happens. Yes, if you stay up for an hour you might have some trouble falling asleep, but the result, when you do fall asleep might be a better chance at a LD. Why? I'm not sure, but it's probably because being up for a longer amount of time firmly establishes your waking-life self-awareness, thus giving you more to work with when you go back to sleep -- even if it takes a while to fall asleep. For myself, my WBTB's tend to last about a half-hour to an hour, and then I often take another half-hour easy to fall asleep. I also do pretty much nothing during the waking time, other than think about my dream goals. Funny thing: my best WILD's by far have been the ones where it seemed like I was never going to fall asleep, and I was awake in bed for an hour or more. That's just me, of course!

That is a great point Sageous! (& great job FryingMan! If Sageous thinks it sounds like a WILD, count it as a WILD success/LD that you can build on! Don't doubt yourself!) I also have had trouble sleeping after WBTB frequently and thus kept most of my LD attempts to the weekends/days off. But if experimenting with staying up longer gets you closer to REM and you find that your trouble getting to sleep is about the same, then no harm. Definitely worth experimenting with. And maybe with more experience we can turn long lead ups to WILD into great WILDs like you mentioned Sageous.

I was wondering what you thought of my possible WILD (If you have tried SSILD and find it invokes a different state it may have been something else).

Spoiler for excerpt from DJ:

Back to bed SSILD And I think I WILD here as it seems like I keep consciousness all the way through. It feels like I am not going to sleep but I start getting different HH's including a finger running down my arm and do my best to ignore the HH's. I start to feel different and decide that I might already be dreaming and should try floating. At first it seems like nothing is happening and then I start floating, first I see a beautiful tree with purple leaves and green leaves, it is so beautiful! I continue floating upward on my back facing up and see a pink blossoming tree maybe cherry blossoms and still other trees of many varieties. I then seem to be in a void and think about a TOTM that I hadn't done calling on the phone. I imagine the phone is already in my hand and it appears, I hold it up to my ear and think, wait I didn't dial a number, I will voice dial "call - home" I get our answering machine and it sounds like it is very similar to what we have...fades, I hear a distant ringing and some softly spoken words-I told myself to remember the words as if it was a great saying or something...next thing I remember I am in a non-lucid dream until becoming lucid at the very end of that dream

^^ Definitely sounds like a WILD to me, assuming you never lost awareness (that wasn't very clear). Full disclosure, though: To me SSILD actually is WILD, even if a slightly different method than usual is used to go from wake to sleep without losing consciousness. In a sense, SSILD is the technique used to achieve a WILD.

So successful WILD it was, and a nice transition at that -- I've still got an image of that tree with the purple leaves in my head (reminds me, happily, of the movie What Dreams May Come) -- thanks for sharing!