Thread: DEILD help

Originally Posted by Sageous

With DEILD, no techniques, of any kind, are necessary, period; all they serve to do is wake you up more, and remove you from the exit dream. No noise, like vibrations, etc, should happen at all, because you are already dreaming, and the WILD transition noise simply should not occur. There is no need to worry about your REM periods (or the stuff you've implanted in your mind about REM cycles) because you are still in REM because you are still dreaming. And, of course, alarms are not necessary, because in a DEILD transition you don't even have to wake up at all, much less be woken up fully. All you need to do is hang onto the dream and let your body go quickly back to sleep.

This is a strange thought to me. While I agree that you pretty much just "hang on" when you have a DEILD, you absolutely can experience vibrations and other hynopompic activity. I do almost every time I have a DEILD. In fact, it's the vibrations in between dreams that often wake me up enough to stay lucid.

I think that a little bit of practice, mostly in the form of having the correct mindset (don't move, interact very gently at first, let the dream coalesce around you, control emotional response) can still be useful in a DEILD. That doesn't mean you need to do anything (except hold very still and keep your eyes closed), but it can be helpful and ease the process.

Originally Posted by Sageous

DEILD, to me, is by no measure recovery from a failing lucid dream. Quite the opposite, in fact: Before a DEILD your dream is strong and doing just fine, but during that dream you start to sense your body awakening. From there you lucidly hold onto your dream while your body awakens briefly and then goes back to sleep. So yes, your body is actually waking up, however briefly, and then going back to sleep again, with the DEILD transition being your maintaining waking-life self-awareness throughout that process by staying connected to your exit dream. I'm not sure why I must say all this, again; do you really think I don't understand what a DEILD is?

Originally Posted by Sivason

I am in fact describing a form of traditional WILD which takes advantage of the near sleep, deep hypnogogic state of awakening, combined with the timing advantage of knowing you are primed for dreaming (REM phase) as evidenced by the fact you were in fact dreaming 5 seconds ago. I am calling this DEILD

Is it just me? These sound like the exact same thing. You are in the middle of a dream transition from one dream to the next. Your mind briefly wakes up while your body stays alseep. You go into the next dream lucidly.


Yes, techniques can help, PrincessFlare. #1 - Practice keeping your eyes closed and still whenever you wake up. You want to do the same when you wake up in between dreams.

Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream

This is a strange thought to me. While I agree that you pretty much just "hang on" when you have a DEILD, you absolutely can experience vibrations and other hynopompic activity. I do almost every time I have a DEILD. In fact, it's the vibrations in between dreams that often wake me up enough to stay lucid.

I think that a little bit of practice, mostly in the form of having the correct mindset (don't move, interact very gently at first, let the dream coalesce around you, control emotional response) can still be useful in a DEILD. That doesn't mean you need to do anything (except hold very still and keep your eyes closed), but it can be helpful and ease the process.






Is it just me? These sound like the exact same thing. You are in the middle of a dream transition from one dream to the next. Your mind briefly wakes up while your body stays alseep. You go into the next dream lucidly.


Yes, techniques can help, PrincessFlare. #1 - Practice keeping your eyes closed and still whenever you wake up. You want to do the same when you wake up in between dreams.

Hey, so I can do that when I wake up from a lucid dream. But now what do I do next? Just wait for something to happen, to feel something, or think about the dream, or hold-on to the dream(and I've no idea how to do this pls help)?

Originally Posted by Princessflare

Hey, so I can do that when I wake up from a lucid dream. But now what do I do next? Just wait for something to happen, to feel something, or think about the dream, or hold-on to the dream(and I've no idea how to do this pls help)?

That's a good start, but you need to practice doing this after NON-lucid dreams, too. You want practice and make it a habit so that after every awakening the first thing you do is hold very still for ~10 seconds. After that, it doesn't matter. If you naturally wake up/partially awaken in the middle of the night or in the morning, and do this, you may have a better chance of catching a DEILD. It needs to be second nature, so that you don't really have to be 100% conscious to remember to do this. You may, for example, become semi-lucid during the transition, do this, and then gain more lucidity as you enter the new dream. It's very easy to open our eyes instinctively after a dream, when we could have gone on to another dream.

If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. It's not something you can force. These are very opportunistic lucid dreams. They are not as cultivatable as DILDs or WILDs. Yes, hold on if you sense the transition. Just lean into any sensations, keep still, and wait for your dream to appear.

hey guys!! so now i've another problem, my past 4 lucids have been only 2 to 3 second long. the moment i realise i'm dreaming i automatically wake up. its not like i'm really excited or anything. i just wake up the moment i get aware. i dont even have time to rub my hands together or say 'clarity' or even touch anything. how do i fix this? is it something that will get better itself??

thanks a lot

What about a DEILD then?

I struggle with stabilisation myself but I remember my first Lucid just crashing instantly and I woke up . After I had a few they slowly started to increase in time . It was like I was getting more familiar with how a dream feels and could sense that feeling for longer .

One thing I did was to imagine myself being in a dream and it not fading away instantly and giving me time to calm down and do stabilisation techniques . I did it in my WBTB time

Originally Posted by Princessflare

hey guys!! so now i've another problem, my past 4 lucids have been only 2 to 3 second long. the moment i realise i'm dreaming i automatically wake up. its not like i'm really excited or anything. i just wake up the moment i get aware. i dont even have time to rub my hands together or say 'clarity' or even touch anything. how do i fix this? is it something that will get better itself??

thanks a lot

Even a little jolt of excitement can be enough to end a dream if it's not stabilized yet. It's normal to have this when you first start out.

It will get better with time as you become more used to having moments of lucidity. They will be less new to you, and you will be able to stay in longer.

Originally Posted by Princessflare

Hey everyone! as of today I've had 4 lucids. Thanks to Wbtb+MILD. I thank you all for helping me out!! About the lucids, 2 of them were pretty short, and the other two were decent almost 2 minutes long. So, uhm, I wake up prematurely and I was hoping you guys have some tips on how to stay in the dream longer. I was trying to learn about DEILD, so even if I did have a 4 second lucid, I'd be able to go back to it, but seems like that's a mess now. Anyway, I'd be happy if I had 10 minute lucids. Also I heard that if the thought of waking up comes to your brain, you'll wake up. I've Intrusive thoughts and this makes it harder. I don't know how to help it lol. And about DEILD, I will probably dig through all the material here and then I'll come back to all of you with the knowledge needed 😁.

Thanks a lot!!!

Well done! Keep up the good work!

When it comes to stabilisation I just try to stay connected with the dream as best I can, by that I mean I engage all my senses and immerse myself back in the dream. Feel the walls, inspect the detail on a leaf or listen to the birds. Do this for long enough and things seem to become more stable.

When it comes to length though I think there is an element of luck and timing involved. Some dreams just appear more stable than others and sometimes your awareness is too low or too high to keep the dream going. I think a lot of the time you become lucid at the end of your cycle when you’re awareness is higher but leads to dreams ending much quicker and may be why they’re often shorter?

These days I don’t focus so much on stabilisation and just get on with the dream. We often hear “excitement” triggers a quick end to lucid dreams but similarly I think “panic” does as well. We may spend days, weeks, months hoping for a lucid dream and when it finally happens the first thought on our minds is “please don’t wake up”! Just thinking this won’t wake you up as others have said but I think it’s the panic that accompanies it that will. I remember when I first started I used to rush around and try to complete my dream goal as quick as possible before the dream ended or frantically do everything I could to stabilise the dream and when I did either of these the dream would often end quickly. Over time I’ve learnt to be calm when I become lucid and just get on with what I had planned and not worry about it ending. Most of my lucids are still quite short but I’m having longer dreams as well (my longest was approx. 20 minutes) Maybe Lucid dreams are always going to be short on average and we should just stay calm and do what we have planned and hope for a long one?

I had a lucid dream a few weeks ago and in it I was about to accomplish my dream goal when I started to panic. I was so close and thought “I bet this dream ends before I finish this!” and within a second the dream collapsed and I woke up in bed. I was really annoyed and wished I hadn’t thought about it. Suddenly I noticed “this isn’t my bed?”“Wait, I’m still dreaming!” The dream never ended from thinking about it but the negative expectation did create a simulated awakening due to my expectation it was going to happen.

Originally Posted by Tiktaalik

Most of my lucids are still quite short but I’m having longer dreams as well (my longest was approx. 20 minutes) Maybe Lucid dreams are always going to be short on average and we should just stay calm and do what we have planned and hope for a long one?
.

15 minutes should be attainable by anyone who sticks at long enough and develops some stabilizing skill. To have ones much longer than that you will have to learn some advanced skills, but honestly 2 hours has not be overly rare for me. maybe a small handful a year.

Originally Posted by Sivason

15 minutes should be attainable by anyone who sticks at long enough and develops some stabilizing skill. To have ones much longer than that you will have to learn some advanced skills, but honestly 2 hours has not be overly rare for me. maybe a small handful a year.

That’s interesting. I’ve often wondered whether meditation/ mindfulness in the dream helps to stabilise it and keep it going longer as you’re able to stay more present in the moment and not let your mind wonder which results in wake ups, collapses, scene changes and loss of lucidity. Would you agree with this or do you have other stabilisation methods?

Regarding the length, I expect the same length from my LDs as from my NLDs. My NLDs are usually 15-30 minutes long (sometimes shorter, sometimes slightly longer). So if I have a WILD, I expect the same length, if I have a DILD, it depends on when the moment of lucidity occurs.
If I wake up a lot at night, my dreams also get more fragmented and shorter, so doing multiple WBTBs can lead to shorter, less stable dreams (lucid or not).
So every time I read about people having hour-long dreams or even more, I just feel like I have bad genes for this or something like that.
Today, post-WBTB, I had two dreams. One was 28 minutes long (non-lucid, or lucid in the last second), according to Fitbit, but it felt shorter (I don't think I have a significant recall gap there). The other one was 6 minutes according to Fitbit, which feels accurate, and I woke up from it naturally (pre-lucid). I got back to sleep quickly, hoping for more, but there was no more dreaming.
I personally don't believe in stabilization (at least not for DILDs). Dreams end when they are supposed to end. The key to long lucids is to get lucid early in the dream. At least for me.

Originally Posted by Tiktaalik

That’s interesting. I’ve often wondered whether meditation/ mindfulness in the dream helps to stabilise it and keep it going longer as you’re able to stay more present in the moment and not let your mind wonder which results in wake ups, collapses, scene changes and loss of lucidity. Would you agree with this or do you have other stabilisation methods?

Originally Posted by IndigoRose

So every time I read about people having hour-long dreams or even more, I just feel like I have bad genes for this or something like that.

I do not think it is a matter of genes. I honestly think the limit on most lucid dreams is pretty close to 15 minutes without extra trick. Mindfulness is of course helpful in getting to that mark, but other things will need to come into play to stretch it out farther. There is first the thing Sageous was talking about, which I am ok with calling DEILD, but I also call getting right back into a dream after awaking to be DEILD. That thing is the developed ability to not allow the mind to go to awareness of the body. If you are still in a dream it is totally possible to stay in a dream and become aware of your body at the same time. You must learn to just stop feeling your body and to have all the awareness be inside the dream. That is why I did not understand calling it an induction method.
Sometimes you will loose a dream do to lag time in your brain's processing power. This means that while your body may be asleep the dream goes on the fritz and the images collapse. It starts as a feeling you learn to recognize and over 3 or 4 seconds the "graphics card" gets shorted resulting in a loss of color and then 3 dimensionality and finally everything goes away. In this case you can prevent the collapse by voluntarily reducing the content of the dream to the barest minimum. This gives the processing time to catch up and stabilize. here is how that goes. I become aware of the feeling I mentioned (practice and experience, I can not describe it) and immediately find one small detail of the dream and focus on that and only that. It must be something that requires virtually no processing power and has almost no graphics that need rendered. A good example is stopping to tie your shoe. The fairy queen is flying about and the sun is setting and all the other stuff... feel that thing that signals full collapse is imminent... oh look my shoe is untied. Quickly bends over and looks at only the shoe. The scene goes black and white, don't think about it, tie your shoe, the scene goes 2D, just me tying my shoe. Here are the laces, slowly now, pull the string tight, slowly fold the string under, taking my time pull the crossed strings tight. Now in 3D, Slowly, very slowly examining the laces, "hold on Fairy Queen I am just tying my shoe" now in color, just a second more, now vivid. Look up expecting to see the same scene, there it is, sunset and Fairy Queen, and back to the dream, where were we.
Next is the dream collapses because you have used up all available REM time. Stay aware as in a deep WILD where the body fell 100% asleep, but no dream has formed. You are now shifting to nREM, but you use visualization to play out your dream in a simpler fashion. You can learn to dream just fine in nREM but it will need to rely on far less visuals. That is fine, shift the dream to being at night or in a corridor where the lights went out, perhaps you walked into an alley way. Ignore the fact that it is almost in 2D and has mostly just implied images in almost chalk line representation. Just make it fit and find a way to spend the next few minutes still engaged with your dream but within the limits of this sleep cycle. Maybe everything is dark because it is night and you are going to go flying through cloud bank? Almost no visuals are needed and nREM can recreate tactile things like feeling you are flying just fine.
You can learn to shift the sleep cycle back to REM but give it 5 minutes or so to give the brain an abbreviated full cycle for stability (plus it may not work sooner than that). How is this done. Practice and experience. It is not something I can explain.
Finally get astoundingly good at traditional DEILD so that if you completely shift from asleep to awake you can get right back into sleep and keep going.

Originally Posted by IndigoRose

I personally don't believe in stabilization (at least not for DILDs). Dreams end when they are supposed to end. The key to long lucids is to get lucid early in the dream. At least for me.

I agree that getting lucid earlier in the dream gives you a longer window to play in and lucidity appears to be more common at the end of cycles. However, even if you successfully WILD at the start of a cycle it can be hard to maintain the dream. I do think the heightened awareness/ wakefulness you get during lucid dreams is what brings you closer to those snap wake ups. Beginners struggle for this reason but more experienced dreamers get better at walking that tightrope. I’ve never seen much evidence of spinning, yelling things and rubbing my hands together keeping a dream going but I think they’re just actions that contribute to staying connected and engaged with the dream which is what is needed to maintain it.

Originally Posted by Sivason

Sometimes you will loose a dream do to lag time in your brain's processing power. This means that while your body may be asleep the dream goes on the fritz and the images collapse. It starts as a feeling you learn to recognize and over 3 or 4 seconds the "graphics card" gets shorted resulting in a loss of color and then 3 dimensionality and finally everything goes away. In this case you can prevent the collapse by voluntarily reducing the content of the dream to the barest minimum. This gives the processing time to catch up and stabilize. here is how that goes. I become aware of the feeling I mentioned (practice and experience, I can not describe it) and immediately find one small detail of the dream and focus on that and only that. It must be something that requires virtually no processing power and has almost no graphics that need rendered.

Yes, I I know the feeling your talking about. In fact, I experienced it just last night in a very short lucid dream. I was only lucid for maybe 30 seconds when I noticed the feeling of disconnect and loss of detail. I quickly focused on a jacket that was hung next to me. I examined the detail on the fabric with sight and touch and it did stabilise the dream for a moment but then collapsed shortly after. I often utilise grabbing on to something physical within the dream when my vision goes and it usually helps me hold on to the dream. Do you believe theres a trick to prolonging lucid dreams whilst in them or is it just about saving them when they begin to fail?

Originally Posted by Tiktaalik

I agree that getting lucid earlier in the dream gives you a longer window to play in and lucidity appears to be more common at the end of cycles. However, even if you successfully WILD at the start of a cycle it can be hard to maintain the dream. I do think the heightened awareness/ wakefulness you get during lucid dreams is what brings you closer to those snap wake ups. Beginners struggle for this reason but more experienced dreamers get better at walking that tightrope. I’ve never seen much evidence of spinning, yelling things and rubbing my hands together keeping a dream going but I think they’re just actions that contribute to staying connected and engaged with the dream which is what is needed to maintain it.

I used to think that WILDs are inherently more unstable, that morning dreams are more unstable or that not engaging with the dream makes it collapse. Then I have a WILD that lasted over 25 minutes, happened when I was oversleeping (snooze situation), in which I expected to end it early (it didn't) and in which I got lost in my thoughts (the dream stayed but I almost lost lucidity).
At this point, I believe that almost always when I feel the need to stabilize, it is just a schema issue.
I still have dreams that end very quickly, but there is never any warning that would give me the time to stabilize. I absolutely can't relate to Sivason's description of possible dream endings.
The truth is that I can't relate to most of his post but it is still valuable advice for me.

Originally Posted by IndigoRose

At this point, I believe that almost always when I feel the need to stabilize, it is just a schema issue.
I still have dreams that end very quickly, but there is never any warning that would give me the time to stabilize. I absolutely can't relate to Sivason's description of possible dream endings.
The truth is that I can't relate to most of his post but it is still valuable advice for me.

It’s tricky. You can’t really tell what is based on expectations. Spinning doesn’t work for me and I don’t expect it to. For Others it may work perfectly if they believe it will.

I don’t believe the dream collapse sensations Sivason mentioned are to do with expectations/ schemas though. They often occur without me thinking about them and I believe I experienced them long before I knew they were a thing to expect. Most of my wake ups are quick as well with little or no time for stabilisation but this kind of fading dream is regular for me. Perhaps it’s a good thing you don’t experience it!

hey, how are you all doing?. so ive had about 11 lucids as of today, but guess what, 87% of them were 3 second long.
now, after having these many, i still just wake up upon realizing. i dont get shocked, i think im used to the feeling of lucidity too, but i just dont know why i wake up immediately after seeing 6 fingers on my hand. i dont even get to rub my palms together. i dont know whats happening. after waking up i try DEILD but nothing happens after like 15-20 seconds so i give up. is it because the quality of my lucid dreams is not high enough, that i wake up immediately? should i do something (in waking life) that might make my lucid dreams clearer, so i dont wake up? or should i not even perform a rc?(i'm thinking to rub my palms, the moment i think i'm dreaming and not being sure of it) will it work, even if i don't know for sure that i'm dreaming?

thanks a lot as always!!