Thread: DEILD help

Originally Posted by Tiktaalik

Great tips and nicely summarised. These days I do meditation and concentrate on my breath as it comes in and out with a 2 word mantra on top of it.

Breath in “Stay”… Breath out “Aware”.

When I was a kid I used to sing the song “Silent night” to myself over and over. It worked really well. I may actually try this again!

I’m also trying a form of visualisation where I roll a tennis ball around in my hands. I can easily imagine the feel and movement of the the action and it’s a simple and repetitive thing to focus on. I haven’t had success with it yet but it may yet.



Sounds like you were very close! This is usually the first sign you’re about to transition into a dream. When you hit this point you need to relax into it and not over think. A lot of people are distracted by swallowing and itches but you have to ignore them as best you can. Any distraction will snap you straight back to being awake. I tend to look into the darkness behind my closed eye lids. I’ll usually see hypnogogia swirling around but I look past it as if the dream is hiding somewhere behind it. I then imagine reaching out with my hands and attempt to feel something physical within the forming dream. If I’m lucky I’ll find something to grab onto and I’ll be able to pull myself into the dream from there. Your experience may differ of course. None of my WILDs have ever been exactly alike.

Some great tips in this thread as well -

https://www.dreamviews.com/attaining...wild-help.html

Thanks a lot Tiktaalik. 🙏

IndigoRose- Multi layered thought. I am very familiar with this. I think most people have this but may not have subtle enough awareness to realize it. I can have exactly the sort of thing you talked about. It is just like if you stopped the mantra and caught your self thinking. Certainly do not start thinking about how you should not be thinking, lol. In this case you kept everything in order and started thinking anyways. Just smoothly move back into not thinking if you can. I posted a lesson in Dream Yoga about suppressing emerging thought, perhaps something in there could be helpful. Definitely keep your anchor on a second or third level and the first layer should be empty. That is if you understand multi layer thought and have some control of it. The top level of thought is to focused and intense for use in anchoring. The challenge is keeping that first level blank, but again perhaps something in the lesson I mentioned will help. Any one reading this that does not follow what we are talking about, just think of it like this- you want to barely be aware, so your mantra or counting should be like a day dream, not like trying to focus or remember something.

Princessflair- You can certainly imagine/ visualize any thing dream like you want. It actually does not matter at all how true your pretend/ focus on last dream / imagery is to the last dream. Maybe I actually was dreaming some elaborate thing about laboratories and aliens and mice with a love scene and then an earthquake because of something the lab did to the mouse. Now I partially awake, or my alarm vibrates bringing me partially awake. I do not need to remember the plot or try to hold true to what was just going on. Maybe the only part that I can grab with out risking thinking too much is the idea of a mouse. I imagine holding a mouse. I watch in my minds eye as it nibbles on cheese. I picture myself petting the mouse. The mouse comes into focus and my waking body is gone. LD has started and I am holding a mouse. Basically any imagery that makes your brain continue in the fantasy realm will work. It could even be 100% unrelated if you can not grasp a fragment of the dream.
As for the second question (about WILD) that is a question for Sageous. He has spent hundreds of hours creating material and answering questions in the WILD course. He would be glad to help you too, I imagine. Briefly, the sensations are just part of experiencing altered consciousness as you begin to sleep with awareness. They can be interesting but are not important. If they come and go, so be it. Swallowing or moving to scratch might bring you back a notch toward wakefullness, but trying to not swallow or scratch will be worse. Swallow if you need to and try not to even think about it.

Tiktaalik- that tennis ball visualization is perfect. Should be very useful.

Sivason, thanks, it makes perfect sense. I am happy to hear that you know what I am talking about.
I should do a thorough read of your yoga class, I just skimmed through it before, never read it fully. I could probably benefit a lot from many of the exercises and info there.

I had a perfect WILD today. I did MILD, was trying to fall asleep, vibrations, I remembered this thread and managed to be there just enough. Then, my sense of proprioception shifted slightly, I reached with my hands, felt a wall next to me and floor under my legs and I knew I was standing in my bedroom, next to my bed. No vision yet, so I walked along the wall, following it with my hand, feeling the texture, and then I stabilized my dream body (another perfect idea I got from you), and as I did that, I started seeing.

so i woke up today after a dream, completely still, without an alarm(thanks Sageous!!!)
now i lay still, tried to recall my dream, and i just kept thinking about what happened. i then swallowed but didnt give it a thought, after a few minutes nothing happened and i swallowed again and after 4 to 5 minutes i just gave up. so any tips guys? i read somewhere that i should just keep focusing on my breath until im there. will this work?

thanks!!

Originally Posted by Princessflare

now i lay still, tried to recall my dream, and i just kept thinking about what happened.

You kind of just answered your own question. Read back on this thread about not trying to recall, and not thinking about the last dream. Just imagine you are in a dream. If the last dream stands out without you trying then imagine you are continuing in that dream. If not, just imagine you are in any dream.
Note that the one way you clearly failed in the attempt was that you were still awake. You must fall swiftly back to sleep. If a lucid dream does not happen, that is fine, try again next time. If you fail to sleep, you clearly can not succeed.

All in all, it seems like you made a good effort, Princessflare, with possibly one exception:

Remember that DEILD stands for Dream Exit etc, and not Dream Recalled etc. The reason DEILD works, and works very well, is because you are in a dream when you notice you are waking up, and you can stay attached to that dream while allowing your body to quickly go back to sleep. If you are awake and struggling to remember your dream, are still awake after 4 minutes, and awake enough to notice swallowing (good job not making it important, BTW!), then you are very likely already past the point of a successful DEILD transition; it's probably time to do a WBTB and try a WILD.

Keep in mind that DEILD's work best when you are exiting a lucid dream. They can be done when exiting NLD's, sure, but you might want some experience DEILDing from LD's before being disappointed by not transitioning from a NLD.

Also, doing things like focusing on your breath during a DEILD attempt, or, unfortunately, just deciding to do that (much less doing it) also implies it's time to switch to classic WILD. DEILD really is that fast.

I know I'm becoming an outlier on this, and that actual DEILD transitioning may be lost in the thick fog of endless techniques, but I hope you'll consider what I've said... and also that you'll try to keep your mind open for awakenings as you're dreaming. With practice, and time, DEILD moments will arrive!

Originally Posted by Sivason

You kind of just answered your own question. Read back on this thread about not trying to recall, and not thinking about the last dream. Just imagine you are in a dream. If the last dream stands out without you trying then imagine you are continuing in that dream. If not, just imagine you are in any dream.
Note that the one way you clearly failed in the attempt was that you were still awake. You must fall swiftly back to sleep. If a lucid dream does not happen, that is fine, try again next time. If you fail to sleep, you clearly can not succeed.

Now I'm confused. You mean that i should actually fall asleep after imagining myself in the dream, or should I stay awake until I feel something?

Originally Posted by Princessflare

Now I'm confused. You mean that i should actually fall asleep after imagining myself in the dream, or should I stay awake until I feel something?

You 100% MUST fall asleep! The way DEILD works gives you about a 1 minute window to pull it off. The reason DEILD is so effective is that sleep is interrupted while your brain is in a state conducive to vivid dreams. Also you are very very close to sleep having just left sleep. Gain some awareness by imagining you are still dreaming. That is your anchor like a WILD attempt. The imagining is to keep you BARELY aware while you allow your body to go back to sleep, as in go right back to sleep.

Many people at first think they are waiting for something to happen in WILD attempts. They hold still and try not to move. They wait for feelings or buzzing, what have you. They are forgetting one obvious fact. You must be asleep to dream (there are exceptions at expert levels.) This is why I preach that you need to learn how to fall asleep.

To answer the question clearly, yes I mean you should swiftly fall asleep, but I am going to correct one thing in the way you worded it. The change is fundamental to getting what me and Sageous have been getting at.

1) You mean that i should actually fall asleep after imagining myself in the dream? This is wrong.
2) You mean that i should actually fall asleep while imagining myself in the dream? Yes, this is it.

The goal with all WILD/DEILD is to fall asleep while staying slightly conscious. It is a very serious change from how you've probably experienced things before. What you are attempting is far from easy and even experienced old guys like me and Sageous admit that it is very hit or miss. It is however, well worth the time and effort. Don't get discouraged!

As Sivason said , The more important part is falling asleep and the visualisation part is just for maintaining Awareness . One think is to focus on the intent of lucidity while waiting for the dream to form by itself , you can try "grabbing on" to a passing thought or image that your mind conjures up when you are DEILDing and then try to stabilize it with traditional techniques like Touching the dream objects , feeling sensations , spinning and doing Reality checks and this could turn that image or thought into a full fledged Lucid Dream

Originally Posted by SealedOrion

As Sivason said , The more important part is falling asleep and the visualisation part is just for maintaining Awareness . One think is to focus on the intent of lucidity while waiting for the dream to form by itself , you can try "grabbing on" to a passing thought or image that your mind conjures up when you are DEILDing and then try to stabilize it with traditional techniques like Touching the dream objects , feeling sensations , spinning and doing Reality checks and this could turn that image or thought into a full fledged Lucid Dream

I have been playing with orange kittens in waking life. It causes my hypnogogic images to morph into the kittens naturally. I then imagine interacting with the kittens for my "imagine you are dreaming" bit. Because the images are already flickering in my minds eye it is easiest to interact with these images, rather than trying to picture anything else (like last dream). I imagine myself petting them and visualize the sensations involved.

Hey, I just DEILDed right now, thanks to this thread and I used Sivason's tip right above this post so I will share. I am a DILDer. I don't WILD, I don't DEILD, I just DILD. So this is a breakthrough for me!

In my dream, had been staying at home for quite a bit with substories about using communal cheese to make soles for our feet, meeting neighboor's dogs, friends bonding over an unknown shared love for manta rays, random people chilling in my bedroom, getting a job for my brother by recounting a tragic tale while bawling my eyes out, etc. But now I was visiting a street bakery. 32$ for 30cm very thin bread sticks, what? This place is too fancy for me. Leaving the place, I am now indoors in a place with big halls and staircases. Lots of people are here, but I am stuck on my knees. I can't stand up or walk. I don't get frustrated. I don't even get surprised I am dreaming, I am just thinking more clearly. And it's very as-matter-of-fact-ish but it is coming from a place of awareness: "I don't need to walk in a dream to move" so I just move. Still on my knees, I move amongst the throngs of people coming down the staircase. Slowly at first, but then I get some speed and even do a swirl proudly waving at the people around me and talking to one in particular. This must have been my most recent dream because lucidity was at a peak but maybe not. All I know, is I was in bed, remembering all these dreams. I never feel I can go back to the dream at this moment, I just think I am awake. But this thread crossed my mind, and I thought "Sivason said I have a one minute window" (aware that he didn't mean this literally/precisely) "Has it been one minute already?" "Could be but it's plausible" "What the hell, I am thinking now! This is not good!" "I'm still not properly awake", very much still in the cognitive daze of transitioning from sleep to wakefulness. My eyes naturally stayed close this whole time (which was a few seconds). "Starting now!" I put everything I learned from this thread in practice. My repetitive imagined movement is me shuffling cards counting never past 10, and I try to put this mind content in my second lane but I'm not sure I even got there this time. I forgive all my previous thoughts, I just latch to the first visuals in my mind. I want it to be about the Task of the Year and I hold a figurine of my superhero but I see the most readily available images are of a sexual nature. Guys. Damn it, but just got to go to the place of least resistance. I confidently say "I am dreaming" while exploring these visuals. And as soon as that, I am walking through a changeroom, creepily judging each man I pass. Many groups are already indulging in softcore orgies. No one is doing it for me (they are a bit too young for my taste). I'm just surprised my mind can come up with so many faces, all good ones, and I'm here being picky. I eventually make it to the end, to the last crew, everyone has left one guy on a bench. He's the last one so he'll have to do. He is kind of cute. I sit beside him, flirtatious. He stops me "I have to be going but we could share information and see each other when I am free." I laugh knowingly and say "My time is about over so there is no use planning for the future." My mind let's go to a narrator. After the narrator finishes narrating, I find an ingrown hair in my mouth and decide to pull it with my tongue. Gross but I do snatch it and I wake up with the pointed pain. It lasts through a period of time in which I thought I was awake. I realize I gave up to the dream way too early because through all of the narration and the ingrown hair pain, I was still not fully awake and could have used that time to chain another DEILD.

So thanks everyone! I can DEILD now. Next stop: WILD (more honestly, my next stop is probably more chaining DEILDs)

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

I never feel I can go back to the dream at this moment, I just think I am awake. But this thread crossed my mind, and I thought "Sivason said I have a one minute window" (aware that he didn't mean this literally/precisely) "Has it been one minute already?" "Could be but it's plausible" "What the hell, I am thinking now! This is not good!" "I'm still not properly awake", very much still in the cognitive daze of transitioning from sleep to wakefulness. My eyes naturally stayed close this whole time (which was a few seconds). "Starting now!" I put everything I learned from this thread in practice. My repetitive imagined movement is me shuffling cards counting never past 10, and I try to put this mind content in my second lane but I'm not sure I even got there this time. I forgive all my previous thoughts, I just latch to the first visuals in my mind. I want it to be about the Task of the Year and I hold a figurine of my superhero but I see the most readily available images are of a sexual nature. Guys. Damn it, but just got to go to the place of least resistance. I confidently say "I am dreaming" while exploring these visuals. And as soon as that, I am walking through a changeroom, creepily judging each man I pass. Many groups are already indulging in softcore orgies.

congratulations!!! this gives me a lot of motivation. these people have really dropped great tips. thanks all of you!!!!
as always i have a qs. so um, (correct me if i'm wrong) at the moment where you decided to begin everything, you began repetitively imagining the sensation of shuffling cards?? what do you mean by second lane?? what do you mean by forgiving prev thoughts(does it mean to ignore and them and block them?). now what do you mean by first visuals? (is it a dreamlet?) also did you swallow during the attempt(i know it doesnt interrupt your attempt, but i feel like when i swallow, all the feeling in my body just vanishes) and how long was the whole process??

i'm really sorry for so many questions, i hope you will answer atleast 1

Thanks princessflare!

- Repetitively shuffling cards is my visualization of choice to replace thinking when trying to fall asleep or/and WILD. Sometimes as I shuffle, there's a chance one of the cards will fall naturally (as my mind attempts to fight the routine) and then I get to see the art on the face of a playing card or a tarot card. This helps me commit to the repetitive action. I find bobbing my finger too boring. Kind of like counting sheep, and next, it's a rabbit instead.
- The second lane refers to IndigoRose's metaphor. In your consciousness, I could be focusing my attention on counting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, but also be aware of an inner dialogue "Didn't I count past these numbers already? Why am I still not falling asleep. I might be doing all of this wrong" and maybe you vaguely see sheep jumping over a fence with your inner eye. Depending on what your attention is focused on, the counting might be in the "primary lane" and the dialogue and visualization might be in secondary lanes, until you focus on the dialogue and now the dialogue is first lane, and the counting is second lane. Any moment, any of these things can fall out of consciousness (outside of lanes altogether). This is the mental equivalent of listening to someone talk but also being aware of your environment. Within your consciousness at any moment, there are more than one thing, and there's kind of a hierarchy of what your attention is focused on at any given moment. And as your mind moves around, anything could fall out of consciousness. So, I'm not sure exactly, how I want to organize my lanes so to speak during a falling asleep/WILD/DEILD attempt, but what I wrote is that I wanted shuffling cards to be in my awareness, but not have my full attention. My full attention was meant to be aimed at emptiness. Other thoughts would have popped into my mind about then like "I will be dreaming" "I am asleep" etc... So, that was the plan anyway. The reason you were confused, I think, is because I mentioned this in my post, but I also said I might not have done this. I tried this every time I fell asleep since my participation in this thread earlier, but I am not sure I did it for this DEILD, because I was already asleep and did not need to fall asleep. My memories are not perfect, sorry. So my retelling is jumbled. I had a lot of dreams to recall this morning so the exact chronology is lost
- Playing with my superhero figurine (turning it in my hands) is supposed to replace shuffling the cards as a reminder of my goal to do the Task of the Year.
- About forgiving my previous thoughts: At this point, I was aware that I was thinking and thinking about thinking. You know: "I am thinking too much and this is waking me up. Stop thinking! This is also thinking, stop it" So instead of thinking my way out of thinking, or exerting effort to stop thinking which could wake me up, I "forgave" my thoughts (I stopped thinking about them, like, it's fine whatever, I am aware of them and ready to move on), not: "STOP THINKING." Moving on, if I was still awake, I would just shuffle cards or play with the figurine. I also sometimes imagine I am in a waiting room playing with the armchair. Waiting to be asleep. I don't know what I am waiting for honestly. Sometimes, I am aware that I can't move and I think maybe this means I am asleep but I don't feel asleep other than the fact I can't move. Maybe someone can clear this out for me, haha, but I just keep waiting. Anyway, today, it was a DEILD, I was already asleep so I was already ready to not do something so repetitive and visualize a dream...
- About first visuals:

I do wish Sivason would share some thoughts on this: there are two kind of inner eye visuals I can distinguish. The easiest way to talk about them is to talk about these restaurants where there are no lights and eat blind. I went to such a restaurant last month. I'm not sure if any of you know about them. Anyway, if you are interested, do look it up. In this restaurant, there is no difference between having your eyes open and looking at the back of your closed eyelids. It's pitch black. Now, I can imagine a scenery in my mind's eye, but it does not appear against my closed eyelid. Let's call that the imagination eye. It's like how you remember a dream or a memory. If you picture something in your mind, it's likely to be this. But, in the restaurant, I knew it was the perfect place to go further. So while my friends were talking, I would sometimes watch intently at the darkness. Much like Sageous' character in Oneironauticus, I was blessed with a dark room where my eyes were devoid of sensory information. And so, I looked for any image to spark. During the dinner, I succeeded three times in triggering images. The first time, I was privy to a show of a wild sea, waves flowing and ebbing. Waves crashing. Second, I watched abstract explosions. Things like that. These, I could vividly see with my open eyes. But they are also visualization (hallucinations maybe. I have less control but I was well aware I chose to see those things). And generally, this happens with your eyes closed and more likely around sleep. Let's call this the visualization eye. When I talk about visualization, I refer to both my imagination and visualization eyes. And both can be at play simultaneously. So, I wonder what Sivason has to say about these two eyes in terms of visualization.

Anyway, so here it goes: when I talk about shuffling cards or playing with the figurine, it's with my imagination eye/hand. When, I talk about first visuals, it's also about my imagination eye. But while the shuffling of cards is planned and voluntary, the first visuals is just the first thing that comes to mind. And I think there is a spectrum between the imagination and visual eye maybe, but definitely, when the dream begins, it's my visualization eye. I see things with my eyes, not just my mind. And today, during the DEILD attempt, the first visuals were imagination eye, and honestly, they were empty. I did not see guys, I just knew that's what I was imagining. Some people say they can't visualize, and it's because they need a vivid image. You just have to go with it. Sometimes, the imagination eye's image is invisible but you know what it is. Like, recall a memory. Maybe, there is not a clear image, but you know what you are recalling. So yeah, I knew I was imagining nondescript guys and I just went with it and then I started seeing with my visualization eye: everything was vividly clear.

When seeing with your imagination or visualization eyes, you can "imagine" the missing parts and just roll with it. For example, if in your dream, you are not wearing clothes, you can just imagine them and if you don't see them, that's fine. It's just part of the spectrum of imagination to visualization. In my DEILD, I was dissatisfied with the men I was seeing, but I should just have imagined one I wasn't seeing or imagined that one of them was the way I wanted it. Or that the one leaving was staying. Then, imagination becomes visualization. But it's often easier to trust what looks most vivid. But things aren't as they seem anyway.

- How long was it between the dream exit and dream re-entry. It felt like less than one minute, but it felt like my mind did a lot in that time.
- I don't recall swallowing but I can't guarantee I didn't move. I just don't remember that. I think I was not very aware of my body much. I was really in a space of thoughts as you wake up.

I hope I answered the questions without confusing you more!

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

So while my friends were talking, I would sometimes watch intently at the darkness. Much like Sageous' character in Oneironauticus, I was blessed with a dark room where my eyes were devoid of sensory information. And so, I looked for any image to spark. During the dinner, I succeeded three times in triggering images. The first time, I was privy to a show of a wild sea, waves flowing and ebbing. Waves crashing. Second, I watched abstract explosions. Things like that. These, I could vividly see with my open eyes. But they are also visualization (hallucinations maybe. I have less control but I was well aware I chose to see those things). And generally, this happens with your eyes closed and more likely around sleep.

Maybe sensory deprivation caused hallucinations? I read that complete darkness (+ silence ideally) can cause very vivid daydream-like open-eye hallucinations in 10-15 minutes. You restaurant wasn't quiet but the darkness still probably made your vizualizations easier.

For Princessflare, regarding swallowing: When I am truly relaxed, I never feel the need to swallow. If you do, simply swallow and don't think about it. But it is a sign of not being relaxed enough (but again, don't think about it this way, because thinking "oh no, I just needed to swallow, that's bad" would make you even less relaxed).

I had a DEILD or superquick WILD on Friday, very early at night, only an hour or hour and a half after falling asleep. I was feeling my husband touching me or hearing him talking to me, so I woke up and asked him, what was happening (assuming I was probably snoring). He said he didn't said anything and that I was confused. I realized I was dreaming it (probably, but it also could be a HH). I checked the time, rolled over, calmed my mind and entered the dream in something like 30 seconds. The timing made it super easy to go back to sleep.

Originally Posted by IndigoRose

Maybe sensory deprivation caused hallucinations? I read that complete darkness (+ silence ideally) can cause very vivid daydream-like open-eye hallucinations in 10-15 minutes. You restaurant wasn't quiet but the darkness still probably made your vizualizations easier.

For Princessflare, regarding swallowing: When I am truly relaxed, I never feel the need to swallow. If you do, simply swallow and don't think about it. But it is a sign of not being relaxed enough (but again, don't think about it this way, because thinking "oh no, I just needed to swallow, that's bad" would make you even less relaxed).

I had a DEILD or superquick WILD on Friday, very early at night, only an hour or hour and a half after falling asleep. I was feeling my husband touching me or hearing him talking to me, so I woke up and asked him, what was happening (assuming I was probably snoring). He said he didn't said anything and that I was confused. I realized I was dreaming it (probably, but it also could be a HH). I checked the time, rolled over, calmed my mind and entered the dream in something like 30 seconds. The timing made it super easy to go back to sleep.

i mean thrice now, i have come to a point while WILDing, where my heart starts racing, arms and legs get a weird tingly feel and i start feeling dizziness(?). and today i reached this stage in 20 minutes ( quickest time). during all these sensations, i'm really calm, and my breathing never gets fast, but then after 7-10 seconds, i automatically swallow(its literally a reflex), and then in 2 seconds the sensations subside. after i did swallow, i didn't pay it any mind either, and told myself that nothing has happened, but the sensations still stopped. i don't really know what to do from here. how do you relax yourself to such an extent that you dont notice the reflex??
while those sensations occur, should i keep waiting or should i imagine a tactile sensation?

thanks IndigoRose!!!

Hey everyone! Ive been keeping up with this thread since pretty much the start but not commented on anything as im not even quite sure what i experience is a deild attempt, throughout the past week in the mornings i suddenly find myself awake and when i have one sudden thought to sleep i feel my body get really heavy and a loud ringing starts in my ears, with some vibrations too, and yet i can never get past that and successfully transition into the dream so im gonna keep at it and see if next time i can do it, if a deild is what is actually happening and not me just imagining these sensations

Originally Posted by Husna12345

Hey everyone! Ive been keeping up with this thread since pretty much the start but not commented on anything as im not even quite sure what i experience is a deild attempt, throughout the past week in the mornings i suddenly find myself awake and when i have one sudden thought to sleep i feel my body get really heavy and a loud ringing starts in my ears, with some vibrations too, and yet i can never get past that and successfully transition into the dream so im gonna keep at it and see if next time i can do it, if a deild is what is actually happening and not me just imagining these sensations

If you're waking up from a dream, only then it's possible to perform a DEILD. So do you remember exiting a dream? If not then it may just be a canwild with a natural awakening i guess. (I can be wrong, I'm a not as experienced as others here)

Originally Posted by Princessflare

i mean thrice now, i have come to a point while WILDing, where my heart starts racing, arms and legs get a weird tingly feel and i start feeling dizziness(?). and today i reached this stage in 20 minutes ( quickest time). during all these sensations, i'm really calm, and my breathing never gets fast, but then after 7-10 seconds, i automatically swallow(its literally a reflex), and then in 2 seconds the sensations subside. after i did swallow, i didn't pay it any mind either, and told myself that nothing has happened, but the sensations still stopped. i don't really know what to do from here. how do you relax yourself to such an extent that you dont notice the reflex??
while those sensations occur, should i keep waiting or should i imagine a tactile sensation?

thanks IndigoRose!!!

I simply don't have that reflex at that stage at all.
I had heart palpitations once, in my first attempt, and never again. Some increase in heartbeat happens, that's normal for the REM start, but I often don't even notice. I generally don't pay attention to my body with the exception of the kinesthetic hallucinations because I find them helpful but the rest is more distractive than helpful.
I used to have a big problem with the vibrations coming and then subsiding without anything happening. I even had a thread about it. For some time, my workaround around it was V-WILD. But these days, I don't need it. I used to "cheat" using only the intention as an anchor, basically shutting off my brain completely for a minute or less before the dream starts. Now, I can be more aware while it is happening without ruining it. It has taken a lot of practice and will need even more to get more reliable.

Im honestly not even sure my recall is all over the place and sometimes it takes me a while to realise i just had a dream and i have to be wide awake for that whereas this experience happens when i just wake up
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I have this too, the vibrations come and go and nothing happens past that and im not sure what to do

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

I do wish Sivason would share some thoughts on this:

I like your thoughts on it. I think everything you described is pretty much on the money.

I think there are about 4 levels of visualization. It starts off with our ability to remember things. As you said this is some sort of imagery even if it is not like pictures. We can imagine things and know what they look like. I call this seeing in the mind's eye. When I ask one to picture an apple we can all get an image in that subtle part of our mind.

The next step is the beginning part of what you experienced, but everyone should bare in mind you have spent many years now thinking about dreams and visualization. A beginner probably could not expect waves but something more like colors and faint static. Through practice this actual imagery (it is seen as with the eyes) can be developed and then controlled. How is it controlled? Through the first step which is the mind's eye/ imagination. Everyone follow this link if you are not familiar with Visualization Training lesson. If I wish to see a triangle I first imagine a triangle, just as you pictured an apple when I mentioned it. This forms a framework that the actual visuals spring from.

The next stage is dream like imagery which as far as I know requires a meditation state like WILD practice or being hypnogogic. This is on the level of what some call dreamlets. It is about as intense as your dreams will get in Lucid Daydream or nREM lucids. Perhaps your waves were a little closer to this. If you had been able to shut out other distractions and were meditative you may have seen flying fish jump above the waves and a night sky too. This sort can be spontaneous in hypnogogia, but can also be created and controlled. How is that? Just as step two, it starts with step one. I imagine a triangle and it forms a framework for actual visualization of a triangle, but it starts in the mind's eye. Now that I actually see a triangle if I relax into a deep state I can dream (waking or in sleep) that it is actually a pyramid. I say dream because this is more of a letting go than a controlling thing. It is hard to describe how one "dreams" something.

This is what I talk about when I mentioned kittens. It starts with imagining kittens. Then I cause some curved lines to appear and move about and create a bit of orange about the lines. I believe they look like kittens and actual images of kittens appear. I interact with them using the tactile visualization and drift off to sleep using the kittens and interaction as my anchor. This is far easier in DEILD than in standard WILD as I am mostly asleep and very hypnogogic.

The final level is what your brain does in REM dreams. How do I control that. Of course some of it comes to other training, like suppressing thoughts and belief, but for a large part it is the same stepwise process. I want rain. I imagine slanted lines across my field of vision. That allows me to actually see slanted lines. I dream this is rain, it becomes rain like on a level you could achieve in meditation. This may be similar to what rain may be drawn like in anime, My REM enhanced visual experience runs with it and I am now dreaming that is raining. It may be seemingly as real as in waking life.


Hope some of that helps. In terms of the topic "help with DEILD" after you wake and realize it is time to DEILD don't think if you can help it, but do start picturing things. Anything. Better if it is congruent with your last dream but do not focus on recalling it. If you are practiced with visualization it will help but don't stress. You have to start where you are currently and get better with practice.


Here is an example from past dreams of how I do this from a lucid which is much much easier. Let's say I am having an adventure and I meet a woman. She says something provocative and is so very appealing. This causes the dream to start collapsing and I become aware of my body and I am now out of the dream. Time to DEILD. I want to keep my imaginings very very simple. I need to limit thought but I can think a tiny bit about the thing I am imagining. By do not think I mean do not think about waking, sleeping, DEILD, recall or anything other than imagining you are in fact dreaming. My thoughts may go like this. "The lady is wearing a necklace and I am looking at it." I use visualization (beginners= imagination) to see a curved line. "I see the necklace, look at the thing hanging on it." I visualize a small circle and pretend it is something on the necklace. "It looks like a locket" I imagine touching the locket and trying to open it. This whole time I have forgot about my body and drifted back to sleep, but stayed aware using the imaginings as my anchor. The locket comes into detailed view as does her neck. I am now back in a lucid dream. This is a traditional DEILD which is done from a lucid dream that collapses. As we have been discussing it can be from any dream, but it is not as easy. For non-lucids you may just have to make up something to pretend/ visualize (such as me and kittens.)

Thank you Sivason, I somehow needed this for it all to "click" in my mind.

Had an interesting DEILD/ WILD experience last night.

After maybe an hour laid in bed awake, I finally drift off into a dream (or maybe dreamlet?) In it I’m floating, gently on my back down a jungle river, almost like Baloo from Jungle book. It’s quite peaceful but I’m a little worried about snakes been around. I then wake up in bed again and feel a vibrating shudder as I do. I know I’ve just exited a dream or was just about to enter one and I’m in that half awake, half dreamy state. I remain still and try to let my mind float away as I relax back into sleep. The vibrations come quickly and I look past my closed eyelids hoping to latch onto any imagery as I normally would but nothing appears and instead the feeling subsides and I’m left awake in bed. I’m disappointed but I’m still on the verge of sleep and don’t give up. I remain still and try to let my mind drift away again and as I do I feel a floaty, weightlessness, similar to how I felt when I was floating on that river. I use this to my advantage and start to imagine myself floating and swaying side to side and the imagined motion begins to feel very realistic. The vibrations return in full force and this time I just hold still and let myself be taken along for the ride and don’t think too much about it. As I continue the swaying I start to feel as though I’m sinking into my mattress. I think this may indicate I’ve entered the dream but I’m unsure. I decide to roll out of bed and into the dream as I’ve successfully done before. I’m not sure if I’m quite ready to do so and worry I may actually roll out of bed in real life but I take the plunge and heave myself out of bed sideways. My feet find the floor and I come into a disorientated, upright stance at the side of the bed. I look to see if my body is still laying in bed like it was last time I did this but it’s empty and now I can’t decide if I’m in a dream or not!? “What are you doing?” asks my wife, confused that I’m outside the bed. It feels like this is really happening but something feels off and I’m sure I’m dreaming this. I see a digital clock at the side of the bed and do an RC. I look away and when I look back the time has disappeared completely. I go to do the check a second time to confirm but before I can I wake up in bed. The dream has ended but I remain still on my back and start to recall the experience when suddenly I’m stood at my front door? I quickly realise I’m back in the dream! The re-entry was so quick, within a matter of seconds and I didn’t even notice the transition. Now lucid I exit my house and have a short 2 minute lucid dream…

It was an interesting experience. I learnt that you have to have a few tools in your belt when doing WILD. My usual look behind my eye lids method failed me this time and it was an imagined movement that brought me into the dream. What was strange was my wife who was also laid in bed awake at the same time as me told me later that I was twitching and making whisper like noises with my mouth like a dog having a bad dream. I think she may have witnessed me entering the dream at the vibration stage. I always assumed I was perfectly still and silent whilst having a WILD but maybe not?

Okay. I know I'm an outlier on all this stuff (sometimes I think I'm from another world these days), but I'll try just one more time, then give up:

Virtually every post on this thread seems to be about classic WILD, and not DEILD: you're all discussing waking from the dream and then doing stuff to go back to sleep and dream. This is all well and good, and the advice given is excellent, but it is advice for achieving WILD's quickly after waking (without WBTB), and not advice for achieving DEILD's. This is fine, but I fear that by attaching all the techniques often necessary to do a WILD to something you are calling a DEILD causes the utter simplicity of a DEILD transition to be clouded in a very thick fog of doing stuff... and it may cause, at least on this thread, folks looking for advice on DEILD to overlook how DEILD actually works and possibly cause them to never be able to experience a DEILD.

Remember, again, that DEILD stands for Dream Exit Initiated Lucid Dream. It doesn't stand for Dream Remembered Initiated Lucid Dream, or Post-Dream Exit Initiated Lucid Dream. In a DEILD, the dream you are exiting is the catalyst for the transition, period. You don't remember it, or focus on it, you simply hold onto it, or stay in it: you need do nothing other than retain your presence in that dream (aka, hold onto it) during the few brief seconds it might take to go fully back to sleep. This retention is not recall -- you are not remembering you were just in a dream, you are continuing to be in that dream.

With DEILD, no techniques, of any kind, are necessary, period; all they serve to do is wake you up more, and remove you from the exit dream. No noise, like vibrations, etc, should happen at all, because you are already dreaming, and the WILD transition noise simply should not occur. There is no need to worry about your REM periods (or the stuff you've implanted in your mind about REM cycles) because you are still in REM because you are still dreaming. And, of course, alarms are not necessary, because in a DEILD transition you don't even have to wake up at all, much less be woken up fully. All you need to do is hang onto the dream and let your body go quickly back to sleep.

This is not semantics, BTW. The beauty of DEILD lies in its simplicity: you simply recognize, during the exit dream, that your body is beginning a wake-up process, and you then hold onto that exit dream while your body briefly awakens and then goes back to sleep. The whole process shouldn't take more than a few seconds. And by "hold on" or "retain", I mean that you basically stay in the dream, even if it fades a bit -- you're maintaining your presence in the plot and imagery, in the dream world, of the exit dream; you are not remembering it, visualizing it (or visualizing something else), or focusing, from a mental distance, on the stuff that happened in the exit dream; you are literally still in the exit dream throughout the DEILD process. It takes some practice to do this during a LD, and a lot more to do it during a NLD, but once you have it down DEILD is by far the simplest transition there is, because there is no need to do techniques, remember anything, visualize anything, or experience noise.

With this said, I will return to my outlier world with the knowledge that I at least tried.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Okay. I know I'm an outlier on all this stuff (sometimes I think I'm from another world these days), but I'll try just one more time, then give up:

Virtually every post on this thread seems to be about classic WILD, and not DEILD: you're all discussing waking from the dream and then doing stuff to go back to sleep and dream. This is all well and good, and the advice given is excellent, but it is advice for achieving WILD's quickly after waking (without WBTB), and not advice for achieving DEILD's. This is fine, but I fear that by attaching all the techniques often necessary to do a WILD to something you are calling a DEILD causes the utter simplicity of a DEILD transition to be clouded in a very thick fog of doing stuff... and it may cause, at least on this thread, folks looking for advice on DEILD to overlook how DEILD actually works and possibly cause them to never be able to experience a DEILD.

Remember, again, that DEILD stands for Dream Exit Initiated Lucid Dream. It doesn't stand for Dream Remembered Initiated Lucid Dream, or Post-Dream Exit Initiated Lucid Dream. In a DEILD, the dream you are exiting is the catalyst for the transition, period. You don't remember it, or focus on it, you simply hold onto it, or stay in it: you need do nothing other than retain your presence in that dream (aka, hold onto it) during the few brief seconds it might take to go fully back to sleep. This retention is not recall -- you are not remembering you were just in a dream, you are continuing to be in that dream.

With DEILD, no techniques, of any kind, are necessary, period; all they serve to do is wake you up more, and remove you from the exit dream. No noise, like vibrations, etc, should happen at all, because you are already dreaming, and the WILD transition noise simply should not occur. There is no need to worry about your REM periods (or the stuff you've implanted in your mind about REM cycles) because you are still in REM because you are still dreaming. And, of course, alarms are not necessary, because in a DEILD transition you don't even have to wake up at all, much less be woken up fully. All you need to do is hang onto the dream and let your body go quickly back to sleep.

This is not semantics, BTW. The beauty of DEILD lies in its simplicity: you simply recognize, during the exit dream, that your body is beginning a wake-up process, and you then hold onto that exit dream while your body briefly awakens and then goes back to sleep. The whole process shouldn't take more than a few seconds. And by "hold on" or "retain", I mean that you basically stay in the dream, even if it fades a bit -- you're maintaining your presence in the plot and imagery, in the dream world, of the exit dream; you are not remembering it, visualizing it (or visualizing something else), or focusing, from a mental distance, on the stuff that happened in the exit dream; you are literally still in the exit dream throughout the DEILD process. It takes some practice to do this during a LD, and a lot more to do it during a NLD, but once you have it down DEILD is by far the simplest transition there is, because there is no need to do techniques, remember anything, visualize anything, or experience noise.

With this said, I will return to my outlier world with the knowledge that I at least tried.

Sageous, I completely understand what you said, but could you explain more on what you mean by holding onto the dream, retaining your presence in the dream? And just how is it done? For me, I don't recognise the moment the dream is fading, one moment I'm in the dream and the next moment I'm aware in bed. I don't move or open my eyes. So what exactly do I do here? Almost every thing that I think I'm supposed to do involves a mental activity. Just maybe, your explanation might help everyone achieve them in a much easier manner. I've read somewhere that, it's better to start DEILDing when you're in the end stage of the dream. Is this what you're saying too??

Thanks a lot for posting.