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      DEILD help

      hello guys, so i have a different type of question today. ive been trying to DEILD and i set up an auto-shut vibration alarm, to wake me up. its been 2-3 days, but i find myself waking up a little before the alarm for no reason, and theres like 10-15 minutes left before the alarm goes off and then i cant sleep easily and be in a dream. and this can happen several times too. why does this happen and how do i fix it to ensure that i wake up exactly to the vibrations?

      thanks a lot as always
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      Your natural clock is quite strong . Basically you set a subconscious intention to wake up everytime you set a alarm , if the intention is strong you internal clock will wake you up at the time of alarm . to be honest , I think natural awakenings are the "softest" way to wake up , like even if you wake up by an vibration alarm it would still be just as hard to fall asleep as it is without an alarm and likely even harder (imo) .

      If you think you are having trouble sleeping just set an alarm earlier in the night so you get less sleep and are more tired
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      As SealedOrion has said this is because of your internal clock and strong intent to wake up at that time. I use this type of intention instead of alarms and I find it works ok for me. If youíre waking up 10- 15 mins before your alarm then that shouldnít be an issue. Spend some time thinking over your lucid intent and practicing MILD or just turn the alarm off and try fall back asleep as normal. Waking up before your alarm shouldnít really affect your attempt too much. Struggling to fall asleep may also occur even if you woke up with your alarm so I donít think itís directly related to waking up before it.

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      I have a question for you, Princessflare: why on earth are you setting an alarm to DEILD?

      DEILD stands for Dream Exit Initiated Lucid Dream, with Dream Exit being the important part here. The way a DEILD works is by your noticing, during your dream, that you are beginning to wake up, and then allowing the awakening (actually a micro-awakening in most cases) but holding still and going right back to sleep while keeping the dream you just exited at the height of your thoughts; hopefully you will quickly return to sleep and that dream, in a lucid state. A successful DEILD transition can take just a few seconds, and, with practice, be completed without ever really waking up.

      Did you notice that there is nothing about alarms in that sequence? That's for good reason: the last thing you want in DEILD is to be suddenly awakened in a manner that might pull you completely away from your last dream, and perhaps negate your ability to go right back to sleep. I don't even recommend using alarms for WILDs (where you're getting up, awake, and doing a WBTB) because, by their nature, they tend to wake you too quickly and too thoroughly. What I do recommend is that you stop taking instructions from whoever gave you those, because if they got the fundamental aspect of a DEILD wrong, God knows what other incorrect things they might be teaching you.

      Oh, and as long as I'm here: DEILD's work best when you are exiting a lucid dream, because you can clearly recognize your body beginning to awaken when lucid. Though DEILDing from a non-lucid dream is possible (I've done so myself many times myself), it can be more difficult because you probably won't be able to notice that awakening process, and you'll be fully awake, your dream left behind, before you can get a chance to consciously return to sleep and you dream; that is a problem, but also a good excuse to get up, WBTB, and try a WILD.

      I go into more detail about DEILD in my DVA WILD class, you can check out the section about it here, if you're interested.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      I have a question for you, Princessflare: why on earth are you setting an alarm to DEILD?

      DEILD stands for Dream Exit Initiated Lucid Dream, with Dream Exit being the important part here. The way a DEILD works is by your noticing, during your dream, that you are beginning to wake up, and then allowing the awakening (actually a micro-awakening in most cases) but holding still and going right back to sleep while keeping the dream you just exited at the height of your thoughts; hopefully you will quickly return to sleep and that dream, in a lucid state. A successful DEILD transition can take just a few seconds, and, with practice, be completed without ever really waking up.

      Did you notice that there is nothing about alarms in that sequence? That's for good reason: the last thing you want in DEILD is to be suddenly awakened in a manner that might pull you completely away from your last dream, and perhaps negate your ability to go right back to sleep. I don't even recommend using alarms for WILDs (where you're getting up, awake, and doing a WBTB) because, by their nature, they tend to wake you too quickly and too thoroughly. What I do recommend is that you stop taking instructions from whoever gave you those, because if they got the fundamental aspect of a DEILD wrong, God knows what other incorrect things they might be teaching you.

      Oh, and as long as I'm here: DEILD's work best when you are exiting a lucid dream, because you can clearly recognize your body beginning to awaken when lucid. Though DEILDing from a non-lucid dream is possible (I've done so myself many times myself), it can be more difficult because you probably won't be able to notice that awakening process, and you'll be fully awake, your dream left behind, before you can get a chance to consciously return to sleep and you dream; that is a problem, but also a good excuse to get up, WBTB, and try a WILD.

      I go into more detail about DEILD in my DVA WILD class, you can check out the section about it here, if you're interested.
      i use alarms to wake me up at the certain times during rem(when im dreaming). so this way i will be sure to wake up from a dream. also you say that, one shouldnt actually wake up from the dream? i once noticed the moment the dream ended and i realised that i'm awake(i didnt open my eyes though) is this wrong?. And i got my instructions from YUPPIE'S DIELD GUIDE and dutchraptors deild guide- become ld God. are these erroneous? Also dont people use DEILD as a stand-alone method to get lucid from a non-lucid?
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      I have a question for you, Princessflare: why on earth are you setting an alarm to DEILD?
      ...
      What I do recommend is that you stop taking instructions from whoever gave you those, because if they got the fundamental aspect of a DEILD wrong, God knows what other incorrect things they might be teaching you.
      Lol, damn good chance it was me. I am a big proponent of Alarm Deild! It is likely my most go to method! I wonder what other incorrect things I have been teaching
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      I think they are confusing DEILD with CANWILD

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      ^^ That could be true. Or not; what do I know?

      Though I really don't believe that you can smoothly exit a dream with an alarm (sorry Sivason), and dreamers might be missing out on the simple beauty of an actual DEILD by doing so, I guess I should've kept to myself, being an old school guy who doesn't pay much heed to all the revisions that are made -- even to things that were simpler, and easier, before those changes were made. Maybe Yuppie knew better.

      So never mind... use your alarms, and enjoy!
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      ^^ That could be true. Or not; what do I know?

      Though I really don't believe that you can smoothly exit a dream with an alarm (sorry Sivason), and dreamers might be missing out on the simple beauty of an actual DEILD by doing so, I guess I should've kept to myself, being an old school guy who doesn't pay much heed to all the revisions that are made -- even to things that were simpler, and easier, before those changes were made. Maybe Yuppie knew better.

      So never mind... use your alarms, and enjoy!
      No,no,no. There are few of the real long term guys around! We need all the teachers we can get, and everyone values your input. Me and you sometimes have evolved different methods but that does not make one right and one wrong.
      The value in the alarm method is a guaranteed way to wake from a dream and then transition right back into the realm of sleep perhaps multiple times. If I naturally wake from a dream that is great, but I can make myself wake from dreams perhaps half a dozen times in a row. I always preach "learn how to sleep first" meaning get good at the art of falling asleep. By the time I was twenty I could make myself sleep on the bleachers while people played basketball. Falling instantly back to sleep after an alarm wakes me is no challenge at all. The alarm doe not have to be a jarring noise as my phone comes with many pleasant options. I don't even need one that auto shuts off. Mine requires me to press the side button. No problem, my hand is the only part that moves and right back to sleep. I use the snooze feature allowing me a DEILD attempt every 9 minutes. That is the reason for the alarm! 100% likelihood of waking from a dream at certain times of my sleep and many attempts in the same session.

      Quote Originally Posted by SealedOrion View Post
      I think they are confusing DEILD with CANWILD
      Not confusion. I am sure Sageous will agree we only need a few categories: WILD (w/ subset DIELD) and DILD (perhaps with subset MILD but I don't like even that as a subset). Everyone wants to post some tutorial and make up some set of letters like FILD, STILD, TRIELD, PRILD (just making these up, don't search for them, lol). There is no chance the guy posting CANWILD invented this method! It is a WILD because you start awake (woken by alarm) and it is DEILD because you take advantage of the REM timing you get from interrupting a dream.
      Sageous, I would not think of something like this as a revision. I have no source material I am drawing on to revise. I do not think we should have a list of sources that are canon.
      Last edited by Sivason; 10-24-2021 at 06:20 AM.
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      I' m not talking about sticking to, or revering, canon here Sivason; hell, I don't even like techniques, much less base my opinions on established "rules." I'm talking about taking without question the easiest transition to lucidity we have and making it more difficult for beginners. You possess an enormous amount of talent and expertise in this art, Sivason, and the fact that you can DEILD easily with alarms does not necessarily mean that novices will as well. I know you know this, and I mean no offense, but I felt it worth mentioning.

      That said, I'm afraid my mind won't be changed on using alarms for WILDs, especially in the case of DEILD... They are simply too disruptive in most cases. As usual, mine is a lonely place !
      Last edited by Sageous; 10-24-2021 at 06:42 AM.
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      That is why I said we have evolved different methods and that it does not mean one is right and one is wrong. It is great for others to hear both of our approaches and logic for them. I am ready to say many of my methods are not beginner centric, but somebody with a hundred LDs under their belt might get value from them. It is also good for you to keep me grounded when I loose prospective on what others are likely to be able to follow or do. Thanks My Friend!
      Last edited by Sivason; 10-24-2021 at 03:40 PM.
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      Yeah I agree most techniques are just alterations in techniques which Induce WILDs and DILDs . Its funny because people have given a technique name for every indivijual WILD anchor and MILD mantr
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      Nearly all my DEILDs have occurred after exiting a lucid dream but Iíve never tried using an alarm. If you use an alarm or not youíre always going to be faced with the challenge of falling back asleep. I find that the hardest challenge when attempting a WILD/ DEILD.

      Quote Originally Posted by Sivason View Post
      By the time I was twenty I could make myself sleep on the bleachers while people played basketball. Falling instantly back to sleep after an alarm wakes me is no challenge at all.
      Perhaps Sivason has some tips?
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      ^^ That could be true. Or not; what do I know?

      Though I really don't believe that you can smoothly exit a dream with an alarm (sorry Sivason), and dreamers might be missing out on the simple beauty of an actual DEILD by doing so, I guess I should've kept to myself, being an old school guy who doesn't pay much heed to all the revisions that are made -- even to things that were simpler, and easier, before those changes were made. Maybe Yuppie knew better.

      So never mind... use your alarms, and enjoy!
      So, sageous, you recommend natural awakenings, to try DEILD, but the problem is what if I wake up at a non REM stage, what then? Do you have a way to wake up exactly at the REM stages? And your opinion is important too, you're pretty experienced and we all appreciate your teachings!! Thanks!
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      Speaking of unnecessary complications...

      Quote Originally Posted by Princessflare View Post
      So, sageous, you recommend natural awakenings, to try DEILD, but the problem is what if I wake up at a non REM stage, what then? Do you have a way to wake up exactly at the REM stages?
      Here's something to think about, Princess flare: REM doesn't cause dreams, dreams cause REM.

      REM, or Rapid Eye Movement, is a symptom of dreaming, and not the other way around. In other words, when you are dreaming you are in REM, so you literally create REM -- there is no need to catch it. The priority WILD/DEILD instructors (myself included, once) place on timing wake-ups to REM periods has caused a rise in techniques, like use of alarms, to catch something that will be there the moment you start dreaming.

      There is one exception to this, of course: There are times during the sleep cycle when consciousness is simply too far removed from your sleeping body that dreaming, and thus REM, is very difficult. These periods generally occur during the early hours of sleep, which is why it's good to hold off trying WILD/DEILD until after several hours' sleep, so that you are at a time when your brain activity is more conducive to consciousness and dreaming (this is why they say that REM periods are close together late in the sleep cycle; it isn't so much that REM periods are more frequent as it is your brain activity allows waking-life consciousness to be present almost constantly late in the sleep cycle, so dreaming occurs more readily). But even this is only an exception, and not a rule: if you are able to summon enough consciousness during your early hours of sleep, you will be creating a REM period when there shouldn't have been one (according to all those sleep cycle charts). So even during those times when REM isn't supposed to be producible, it will be produced if you begin to dream.

      On top of all that, the beauty of DEILD is that it continues your REM as long as you can continue DEILDing without fully waking up. LDers regularly "chain" their LD's with multiple DEILDs, extending REM periods substantially past their proscribed schedule. So there is no need to fully awaken during a REM period: if you are exiting a dream you are already in REM, and if your DEILD is successful, REM will follow right along with you because you are still dreaming.... this is why the "Dream Exit" part of DEILD is so important.

      In other words, if you successfully DEILD, there is no need to time your awakenings to a REM period, because you will, by definition, already be in a REM period as you are exiting your dream. Among the only things I can think of that would threaten this continuation would be using an alarm or the need to visit the bathroom, because both have a tendency to both wake you up too fully and to separate you from the dream you are exiting (along with the state of mind causing that dream), making it very difficult to complete a DEILD.

      The scientists call REM periods REM periods because they can see their subjects' eyes moving as they follow the action of their dreams... I often wish they called these times "dream periods," or "near-consciousness periods," as it would have made all our lives a bit easier.

      tl;dr: Don't worry about catching REM with DEILD; you will be in a REM period, no matter what, if you are in a dream as you sense an imminent awakening. Setting an alarm, in my opinion, might actually end your REM period by abruptly ending your exit dream as you are woken up.
      Last edited by Sageous; 10-24-2021 at 05:46 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Speaking of unnecessary complications...


      REM, or Rapid Eye Movement, is a symptom of dreaming, and not the other way around. In other words, when you are dreaming you are in REM, so you literally create REM -- there is no need to catch it. The priority WILD/DEILD instructors (myself included, once) place on timing wake-ups to REM periods has caused a rise in techniques, like use of alarms, to catch something that will be there the moment you start dreaming.
      .
      We agreed long ago that you would teach WILD (which includes DEILD) and I would teach Dream Yoga (meditation and mental discipline for dreaming) and that is still true. Just so everyone knows Sageous is the go to guy for all things WILD. As he has remarked above I often forget what teaching novices should include, which is a stepwise process of logical ideas that lead anyone to good results. You can not go wrong trusting him on the subject.





      Quote Originally Posted by Tiktaalik View Post

      Perhaps Sivason has some tips?
      Thinking is the enemy to sleep. using a mantra of any sort can remove thinking from the equation. That is why everyone used to say "count sheep." You need to replace thought with something less stimulating. Mantra could be counting breath but starting over at 10 each time, a prayer, an affirmation, or perhaps the chorus to a kids song. When you find you have started thinking and lost the mantra, do not judge, just resume the mantra. I find even words can be less effective than visualization of tactile experiences. A wonderful method is to imagine your hand tapping a finger like a metronome, or simply moving energy around like KI, Chi, Kundalini. this can remove even words from your mind but still fills the spaces random thought would be expressed.
      Another thing is practicing relaxing the body. Meditation of various sorts can help with this. One I like is to be aware of gravity. It fills my mind in place of thoughts and reinforces to my body that I am comfortably laying down. One falsehood in my opinion is that you must not move. If you are uncomfortable how are you going to sleep? Sleeping in its self is an art that can be studied and perfected.
      If you go through the stuff in the Dream Yoga class much of it will be very useful in this pursuit.
      Last edited by Sivason; 10-24-2021 at 10:44 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sivason View Post
      Thinking is the enemy to sleep.
      Then, thinking should be interrupted during the dream-exit phase of a DEILD transition and replaced with a rhythmic phrase or gesture until the dream is stabilized? I'm thinking I might have been hurting my chances by trying to recall the dream I was exiting...
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      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      Then, thinking should be interrupted during the dream-exit phase of a DEILD transition and replaced with a rhythmic phrase or gesture until the dream is stabilized? I'm thinking I might have been hurting my chances by trying to recall the dream I was exiting...
      I'm pretty sure almost all guides say that you've to recall your dream until you are in the dream. Now idk if its wrong.
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      ^^ You are correct, Princessflare.

      I would say that, with DEILD, there likely will be no time to start a mantra anyway; and if you did move to a mantra, I fear it might serve more as distraction than simply focusing on your exit dream. Also, I'm not sure that holding onto your exit dream really counts as thinking.

      I assume that Sivason was giving (excellent) tips on falling to sleep in general...

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      I think recalling is too much. If you wake up from a vague non-lucid and barely remember it, so you need to really think to recall it, you won't be able to DEILD. If it is a high-presence non-lucid, you don't even need to recall, you just hold to the feeling of the last scene - that's when DEILD gets easy.

      Personally, I can't DEILD from LDs. I am just too mentally active after waking up from a LD.
      To get there (WILD), I have to naturally suppress all thoughts and inner voice (so no mantra, no counting). I can have some vague non-verbal thoughts at the back of my mind (keeping the intention there or tracking an anchor) but not more. When I start dreaming, I can increase my lucidity and mental activity, once the REM/dream is stable. But when I leave it, I can't go down where I need to be for DEILD.

      The thing about the relationship between dreams and REM is completely mind-boggling to me. I know there are people who can force dreaming in NREM or force REM (or at least claim it and I have no reason not to believe them).
      But I just can't and everything I know about the science of sleep and about my sleep patterns tell me that it isn't something most people can do. Is it learnable? Maybe. Or is it only possible for some people, based on their physiology? Maybe.
      What I know about my sleep patterns (after a lot of playing with Fitbit and taking notes after waking up from dreams) is that unless I get an insomnia period, my sleep patterns in the morning are fairly regular. 40-70 minutes of NREM, 15-30 minutes of REM. Rinse and repeat.
      I can't DEILD at the end of a REM period. The natural awareness at that point is too high, and there is no "REM pressure".
      I can't enter WILD quickly after a natural (after a dream) awakening unless it is micro-awakening in the middle of REM.
      Even if I fall asleep almost immediately (not attempting any technique), I don't dream for another hour.
      So if I want to WILD, I set an intention to wake up/get aware again later, from NREM, and I'll go from there.
      The way how it works for me is that there is "REM pressure", a need for REM. This is at its lowest just after waking up from REM/dream and at its highest just before the next REM. When I get a lot of sleep disruptions combined with some insomnia, I can even feel this, I recognize the slight physiological changes that come just before REM and changes in my thoughts and any random imagery/dreamlets.

      There are some exceptions to this. Sometimes, I am more free-dreaming. But most of the time, it works this way for me.
      It could be that I am "special", an extreme light sleeper, with too unstable and fragmented sleep in the morning hours.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post

      I assume that Sivason was giving (excellent) tips on falling to sleep in general...
      Exactly, tips on The Art of Falling Asleep.


      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      Then, thinking should be interrupted during the dream-exit phase of a DEILD transition and replaced with a rhythmic phrase or gesture until the dream is stabilized? I'm thinking I might have been hurting my chances by trying to recall the dream I was exiting...
      Ideally you are already so close to sleep in DEILD that such methods would not be needed. I still would avoid thinking however. You can still follow Sageous' method with out literally thinking, as in a running inner monologue. He says focus on your dream. Focus does not need to mean talking to yourself in your head. For example, say I was having a dream about walking in the park and enjoying the feel of sunshine on my face.

      One approach that I would personally avoid goes like this: Thinking to self- "OK, time to try this. Where was I? I was in a park. What park? I don't recall. Think, did it look familiar? Was anyone there? Ok, no info. What was I doing? I was walking. Was someone with me? Not that i recall. What else? The sun' I remember feeling the sun on my face. Ok, park, walking, sun on face. Park, walking, sun on face. Why am I still awake? --- In my opinion this is ok to begin with, but is less productive than it could be with practice in not thinking.

      Second approach (how I would do it): Imagines a green park like generic setting. Feels the rhythmic tactile feelings involved in walking. Novice = imagination, advanced = developed visualization skills. Feels sun on face, just as before imagination or good visualization. Walks in imagination through a generic park enjoying the sun. Physical body disappears. Images come into focus. Begin LD.


      Quote Originally Posted by IndigoRose View Post
      1) I think recalling is too much. If you wake up from a vague non-lucid and barely remember it, so you need to really think to recall it, you won't be able to DEILD. If it is a high-presence non-lucid, you don't even need to recall, you just hold to the feeling of the last scene - that's when DEILD gets easy.


      2)The thing about the relationship between dreams and REM is completely mind-boggling to me. I know there are people who can force dreaming in NREM or force REM (or at least claim it and I have no reason not to believe them)..
      1) Exactly! See above. However it does not need to be high presence non lucid. If you barely recall anything automatically just visualize any dream scene like my walk in the park, or take the vaugest fragment and run with it. In my experience it will be the mental work of attempting true recall that might over stimulate you, preventing a rapid return to sleep.

      2) High level of training required (decade +) and maybe natural physiology. Link to related paper on nREM lucid proof
      Last edited by Sivason; 10-26-2021 at 05:12 AM.
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      Peace Be With You. Oh, and sure, The Force too, why not.



      "Instruction in Dream Yoga"

    22. #22
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      I had a very good night with much more dreaming thab usual and much smaller NREM gaps in the morning. I think my brain is trolling me
      Also, twice, I returned to a non-lucid dream non-lucidly after awakening from it (something I used to do a lot as a kid and know how to do it, it's adding the lucidity, where it gets tricky). Although both were dreams that ended prematurely because of a too emotional scene.
      My success rate with WILD transitions is maybe 1 in 10 (maybe slightly better, but no better than 1 in 5, and I am talking about transitioning only because that's the tricky part for me, not getting there). I guess this could be similar with DEILD, because it is almost the same thing. Making it better (learning to control my mind) would help me hugely in my LDing progress.

      Sivason, your advice is golden. I have a question for you about your area of expertise, a little bit side-stepping from the main topic but relevant to the thinking part of it.

      Quote Originally Posted by IndigoRose View Post
      I can have some vague non-verbal thoughts at the back of my mind (keeping the intention there or tracking an anchor) but not more.
      I want to elaborate on this because I don't know if most people function in the same way or not.
      When I meditate on breath (let's say with counting), I can be aware of the count (not losing it) and breath and at the same time think about something at the back of my mind. It's like there are two separate lanes, or even three, on the first the count, on the second the awareness of my breath and on the third the thinking. Obviously, when I notice doing this, I'll suppress the third lane and try to give 100% of my attention to the first and second.
      I also like your sensory awareness practice (sounds) and this is how I "store" the sounds I am trying to track simultaneously.
      I read somewhere that this is an ADHD thing, that we need to use 100% of our mental capacity all the time, and when we do something that doesn't take 100%, we fill the rest with something else, being very mentally active all the time. And neurotypical people don't do this. But I don't really believe this.

      Anyway, tonight, I noticed that my "I am dreaming" mantra on the 1st lane caused a collapse of a dreamlet/HI/potential forming dream. So I tried to move the mantra to the third lane and keep it there in a way that wouldn't be disruptive to the imagery (keeping the 1st lane blank so the imagery can exist there). And surprisingly, I was able to do it but it was very hard to do. It seemed like something I could practice.

      The question for you is: Does this make any sense to you?
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sivason View Post
      Exactly, tips on The Art of Falling Asleep.




      Ideally you are already so close to sleep in DEILD that such methods would not be needed. I still would avoid thinking however. You can still follow Sageous' method with out literally thinking, as in a running inner monologue. He says focus on your dream. Focus does not need to mean talking to yourself in your head. For example, say I was having a dream about walking in the park and enjoying the feel of sunshine on my face.

      One approach that I would personally avoid goes like this: Thinking to self- "OK, time to try this. Where was I? I was in a park. What park? I don't recall. Think, did it look familiar? Was anyone there? Ok, no info. What was I doing? I was walking. Was someone with me? Not that i recall. What else? The sun' I remember feeling the sun on my face. Ok, park, walking, sun on face. Park, walking, sun on face. Why am I still awake? --- In my opinion this is ok to begin with, but is less productive than it could be with practice in not thinking.

      Second approach (how I would do it): Imagines a green park like generic setting. Feels the rhythmic tactile feelings involved in walking. Novice = imagination, advanced = developed visualization skills. Feels sun on face, just as before imagination or good visualization. Walks in imagination through a generic park enjoying the sun. Physical body disappears. Images come into focus. Begin LD.




      1) Exactly! See above. However it does not need to be high presence non lucid. If you barely recall anything automatically just visualize any dream scene like my walk in the park, or take the vaugest fragment and run with it. In my experience it will be the mental work of attempting true recall that might over stimulate you, preventing a rapid return to sleep.

      2) High level of training required (decade +) and maybe natural physiology. Link to related paper on nREM lucid proof
      hello Sivason, hope you're well. so i had 2 questions for you. Lets say i woke up from a dream, and i am trying to DEILD, now lets take your dream for example.
      in the dream i only walked through the park and saw the sun, thats it. i didnt feel the sun on my face and neither did i feel the wind on my skin. while DEILDing can i imagine these sensations? because i dont really have a lot of stuff to put my mind to.

      my second question for you is about WILD, i tried it a few hours ago during a late afternoon nap, and i felt these vibrations/buzz/goosebumps in my head, they lasted for about 5 seconds, my heart rate was high, but i kept my breathing to a perfect normal rate, however i swallowed and the sensation stopped. i also remember feeling a little dizzy in those seconds. could you please analyse and tell me what i should do from here to get a lucid, and how close i'm, what should i improve?

      thanks a lot!!
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    24. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by IndigoRose View Post
      I had a very good night with much more dreaming thab usual and much smaller NREM gaps in the morning. I think my brain is trolling me
      Also, twice, I returned to a non-lucid dream non-lucidly after awakening from it (something I used to do a lot as a kid and know how to do it, it's adding the lucidity, where it gets tricky). Although both were dreams that ended prematurely because of a too emotional scene.
      My success rate with WILD transitions is maybe 1 in 10 (maybe slightly better, but no better than 1 in 5, and I am talking about transitioning only because that's the tricky part for me, not getting there). I guess this could be similar with DEILD, because it is almost the same thing. Making it better (learning to control my mind) would help me hugely in my LDing progress.

      Sivason, your advice is golden. I have a question for you about your area of expertise, a little bit side-stepping from the main topic but relevant to the thinking part of it.



      I want to elaborate on this because I don't know if most people function in the same way or not.
      When I meditate on breath (let's say with counting), I can be aware of the count (not losing it) and breath and at the same time think about something at the back of my mind. It's like there are two separate lanes, or even three, on the first the count, on the second the awareness of my breath and on the third the thinking. Obviously, when I notice doing this, I'll suppress the third lane and try to give 100% of my attention to the first and second.
      I also like your sensory awareness practice (sounds) and this is how I "store" the sounds I am trying to track simultaneously.
      I read somewhere that this is an ADHD thing, that we need to use 100% of our mental capacity all the time, and when we do something that doesn't take 100%, we fill the rest with something else, being very mentally active all the time. And neurotypical people don't do this. But I don't really believe this.

      Anyway, tonight, I noticed that my "I am dreaming" mantra on the 1st lane caused a collapse of a dreamlet/HI/potential forming dream. So I tried to move the mantra to the third lane and keep it there in a way that wouldn't be disruptive to the imagery (keeping the 1st lane blank so the imagery can exist there). And surprisingly, I was able to do it but it was very hard to do. It seemed like something I could practice.

      The question for you is: Does this make any sense to you?
      hello IndigoRose, how are you doing? i had a question, if you dont mind. so in your last paragraph, what do you mean by collapse of a dreamlet? i, almost everytime, have tons of such scenes, while trying to WILD and they keep ending and then i regain consciousness(perhaps this is what you mean by collapse?) and is this a dream forming around you? if yes, how do i enter it?

      thanks a lot!!
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    25. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Princessflare View Post
      hello IndigoRose, how are you doing? i had a question, if you dont mind. so in your last paragraph, what do you mean by collapse of a dreamlet? i, almost everytime, have tons of such scenes, while trying to WILD and they keep ending and then i regain consciousness(perhaps this is what you mean by collapse?) and is this a dream forming around you? if yes, how do i enter it?

      thanks a lot!!
      I mean random imagery. The nuanced classification doesn't matter. By collapse, I mean that it suddenly stopped, even though it was developing nicely. No significant difference in consciousness or awareness. This imagery is dreamy in the sense that it is built on free spontaneous associations, and needs passive awareness to go on, too active thinking goes against it (replaces it as the primary stream of consciousness).
      If the timing is right, it can change into a dream quickly. Sometimes, the transition is smooth from these, no vibrations etc., just visual. It happens when the imagery is immersive enough, so the awareness of the real body disappears and moves into a dream body. But doing this on purpose rarely works for me. When it does, there is always significant movement involved.
      But it is also possible to see these images and be nowhere near a dream.
      I am not the expert here on teaching WILD but I would say that it isn't good when your awareness goes up and down. It is better to keep it steady and passive. Or slowly silence the thinking and guide your mind slowly and gradually where it needs to be through the process of falling asleep. Paying too much attention to your body or to the imagery or anything else is wrong.
      You can skip some time by losing the awareness and regaining it later, some techniques are even based on this (like the technique when you hold something in your hand and it falls from your hand shortly before the transition, "waking you up" a little bit but personally, I am not a fan of this. Sudden spikes in awareness/thinking are not good.
      But Sivason or Sageous are much better at answering similar questions.

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