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    Thread: On The Nature of Shared Dreaming

    1. #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by Psionik View Post
      I would be very cautious to use physical fields(like magnetic or electric- electromagnetic) as way to connect to someone. I read also about experiments where they tried communication on very long distances and they did it from Faraday cage.
      Your Eternal Self Drafts . Thought this might be of value. It mentions those studies with Faraday cage and some more interesting articles. Haven't checked for sources but some things I read on that page are really intrigeuing.

      Charles Tart, MD, instructor in psychiatry in the School of Medicine of the University of Virginia and professor of psychology at the University of California at Davis, had two graduate students at the University of California, Anne and Bill, mutually hypnotize each other. He had Anne hypnotize Bill and after he was hypnotized, he had Bill hypnotize Anne. In this state, Anne and Bill experienced the same fantasy images, without attempting to create the fantasy. This is the account of what they said after they had just had the experience with their eyes closed:
      When they opened their eyes they reported that everything seemed grey. Then the greyness was replaced by the vision of a beach whose sand glowed like diamonds, whose rocks were crystals pulsating with a beautiful internal light, and whose waves were great bubbles of unearthly beauty. . . .

      Tart quickly realized that Bill and Anne were actually experiencing the same "hallucinated" reality. They found themselves together in this Paradise, walking hand in hand, or swimming together in the marvelous sea, exploring their new world.

      They had stopped talking for a while, and when Tart questioned them about their silence he found that in their shared reality they were talking to each other; in Tart’s reality they weren’t. Their communication was paranormal as far as Tart's experience of it.

      In session after session, the two constructed and shared various realities, all involving all five senses, and all as real as the world in which they left Tart behind. They discussed details of their shared experiences for which there was no verbal hypnotic stimulus. They felt that they must actually have been in the places they experienced together.27
      Also found one shared dreaming account ^^
      Last edited by Dthoughts; 02-06-2014 at 01:24 PM.
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    2. #52
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      This is the article that I was reading
      Biomagnetism
      Biomagnetism and Bio-Electromagnetism:
      The Foundation of Life

      by H. Coetzee, Ph.D.

      [Originally published in Future History, Volume 8]

      Throughout the past 30 years, scientists have been extensively researching organisms that have the ability to produce the ferromagnetic mineral magnetite. Magnetite is a black mineral form of iron oxide that crystallizes in the cubic or isometric system, namely all crystals which have their crystallographic axes of equal length at 90 degrees to each other. It is a mixed Iron (II) Iron (III) oxide, Fe3O4, and is one of the major ores of iron that is strongly magnetic. Some varieties, known as lodestone, are natural magnets; these were used as compasses in the ancient world.

      The discovery of a biogenic material (that is, one formed by a biological organism) with ferromagnetic properties and found to be magnetite was the first breakthrough toward an understanding as to why some animals have the ability to detect the earth's magnetic field. Searches for biogenic magnetite in human tissues had not been conclusive until the beginning of the 1990's when work with high-resolution transmission electron microscopy and electron diffraction on human brain tissue extracts of the cerebral cortex, cerebellum, and meninges (membranes surrounding the brain and spinal cord) identified magnetite-maghemite crystals.

      Magnetite Crystals under Low Magnification
      Magnetite Crystals under Low Magnification

      These magnetite crystals were found to be organized into linear, membrane-bound chains a few micrometers in length, with up to 80 crystals per chain. Furthermore individual crystals have their {111} aligned along the length of the chain axes (the "easy" direction of magnetization). The {111} crystal alignment has been interpreted as a biological mechanism for maximizing the magnetic moment per particle, as the {111} direction yields approximately 3% higher saturation magnetization than do other directions. This prismatic particle shape is also uncommon in geological magnetite crystals of this size, which are usually octahedra. The crystal morphology was found to be cubo-octahedral with the {111} faces of adjacent crystals lying perpendicular to the chain axis.

      All the magnetite crystals that have been examined to date are single magnetic domains, which means that they are uniformly and stably magnetized and have the maximum magnetic moment per unit volume possible for magnetite. Elemental analysis, by energy-dispersive X-ray analysis, electron diffraction patterns, and high resolution transmission electron microscopy lattice images, showed that many of the particles were structurally well-ordered and crystallographically single-domain magnetite. This means that the production of this biomineral must be under precise biological control.

      Ferromagnetic crystals interact more than a million times more strongly with external magnetic fields than do diamagnetic or paramagnetic materials (deoxyhemoglobin, ferritin, and hemosiderin).With this finding researchers were posed with a fundamental question for biology, namely: What is the mechanism through which the weak geomagnetic fields are perceived by organisms that are able to precipitate crystals of a ferromagnetic mineral such as magnetite (Fe3O4)? Could these crystals use their motion in a variety of ways to transduce the geomagnetic field into signals that can be processed by the nervous system?

      The presence of membrane-bound biomineral magnetite, which has been shown to have a biological origin, and the implication that some kind of mechanical coupling must take place between each compass magnetite particle and a mechanoreceptor, or at least a functionally equivalent mechanism allowing the position of the particle to be monitored by a sensory organelle in the body, is unique. Research has also found that the magnetite is produced by the cells of the organism when needed. Forms of advanced physical intelligence can directly tap into this information if they have a crystalline network within their brain cavity.

      Scientists are now asking the fundamental question: What is magnetite doing in the human brain? In magnetite-containing bacteria, the answer is simple: Magnetite crystals turn the bacteria into swimming needles that orient with respect to the earth's magnetic fields. Magnetite has also been found in animals that navigate by compass direction, such as bees, birds, and fish, but scientists do not know why the magnetite is present in humans, only that it is there.

      We have also seen in research done in the late 1980s that proteins, DNA, and transforming DNA function as piezoelectric crystal lattice structures in nature. The piezoelectric effect refers to that property of matter which may convert electromagnetic oscillations to mechanical vibrations and vice versa. Studies with exogenously administered electromagnetic fields have shown that both transcription (RNA synthesis) and translation (protein synthesis) can be induced by electromagnetic fields and furthermore that direct current in bone will produce osteochondrogenesis (bone formation) and bacteriostasis, as well as affect adenosine triphosphate (ATP) generation, protein synthesis and membrane transport.

      Single Magnetite Crystal in the Human Brain
      Single Magnetite Crystal
      in the Human Brain

      In the human brain, pyramidal cells are present and arranged in layers in the cortex of the two cerebra. The pyramidal cells act as electro-crystal cells immersed in extra-cellular tissue fluids, and seem to operate in the fashion of a liquid crystal oscillator in response to different light commands, or light pulses which, in turn, change the orientation of every molecule and atom within the body. Biogravitational encoded switches present in the brain allow a type of liquid network to release ions that induce currents to the surrounding coiled dendrites. Electron impulses from a neuron, on reaching the dendrite coil of the abutted cell, generate a micro amperage magnetic field, causing the ultra thin crystal, or liquid crystal in the pyramidal cell to be activated --- in a very unusual way. On flexing, this ultra thin crystal becomes a piezoelectric oscillator, producing a circular polarized light pulse that travels throughout the body, or travels as a transverse photonic bundle of energy

    3. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dthoughts View Post
      Your Eternal Self Drafts . Thought this might be of value. It mentions those studies with Faraday cage and some more interesting articles. Haven't checked for sources but some things I read on that page are really intrigeuing.



      Also found one shared dreaming account ^^
      I think that most if not all shared dreaming has a component of suggestion. Maybe not hypnotic suggestion, but suggestion none the less.

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      Nice finding that article Kadie, thanks, that is a good one! Plants also carry electric signals, ATP and some well known neurochemicals. If you ask me, photons have become entangled with material and have become quantum entangled systems. Drawing connections from that article; Earth's iron core has a function in that system as well. And i have been told that there's an iron core (atleast, partly?) responsible for magnetic field and upholding our biosphere.

      Quote Originally Posted by kadie View Post
      I think that most if not all shared dreaming has a component of suggestion. Maybe not hypnotic suggestion, but suggestion none the less.
      Maybe sleep is just a form of hypnotic trance. However, i find it remarkable how easy it might be to share dreams if you know how to hypnotize each other.
      Last edited by Dthoughts; 02-06-2014 at 06:19 PM.
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      Sorry kadie - you found something completely unscientific there - I can't leave that stand - better I don't read further back in the thread..

      In the human brain, pyramidal cells are present and arranged in layers in the cortex of the two cerebra.
      Yes.

      The pyramidal cells act as electro-crystal cells immersed in extra-cellular tissue fluids, and seem to operate in the fashion of a liquid crystal oscillator in response to different light commands, or light pulses which, in turn, change the orientation of every molecule and atom within the body.
      This is bullshit on different levels.
      There are no crystals in nerve cells - neither is there magnetite in the human brain. We are not birds.

      Then - there are no light-signals being transmitted whatsoever - that makes no sense* - the only light sensitive receptors are in the retina. And nope - not even in the infamous pineal gland are light-receptors - at least not in humans.
      Information transport works per differences in electrical potential over the cell membrane.

      What happens, is that an oncoming electrical signal acts on an actively maintained electrical potential difference over the cell membrane.
      The inside of the cell is slightly negative - pumps transport the ions across the membrane to keep that up.
      Then comes an electrical pulse - electrons, not photons - and depolarizes the membrane - if that transgresses a certain threshold - ion-channels open and lead to an action potential - a big depolarisation - a signal, which gets furthered on like in an electrical capacitor - there are isolating sheets around the nerve cells, so that it jumps over them and again keeps triggering these spike potentials.
      That goes towards the end of a nerve-cell - then comes a synapse, and usually the signal is then transmitted by vesicles with neurotransmitter getting triggered to empty themselves out into the synaptic cleft.
      By binding to receptors on the next neuron - many things can come about - mostly the next electrical action potential gets triggered - or the generation of same inhibited.

      Plus - neither are there light signals - nor do or even would these change the orientation of molecules.
      An MRI does change the orientation of the spin of electrons in water molecules - and lets them "snap back" - that's probably what they try to muddle into here.


      Biogravitational encoded switches present in the brain allow a type of liquid network to release ions that induce currents to the surrounding coiled dendrites. Electron impulses from a neuron, on reaching the dendrite coil of the abutted cell, generate a micro amperage magnetic field, causing the ultra thin crystal, or liquid crystal in the pyramidal cell to be activated --- in a very unusual way. On flexing, this ultra thin crystal becomes a piezoelectric oscillator, producing a circular polarized light pulse that travels throughout the body, or travels as a transverse photonic bundle of energy
      No - ions are transported per pumps or let through pores, which open from oncoming electrical currents.
      There are no piezoelectric phenomena in the brain!
      Neither biomagnetism nor "biogravitational" forces - what that is supposed to mean, is beyond me anyway.
      Electrical currents flowing can always be called electro-magnetical - fine.
      That is not what they are getting at here, though.
      Oh - and dendrites are not coiled - they are branching out like tree-branches - they try to invoke electromagnetic coils there.
      Nope.
      This is bullshit on so many levels, while going into some detail on the other hand - I suspect right out fraudulent motives here.


      I will not mix inside this beyonder discussion any further - but reading this hurts my brain!
      Oh - and I do know, that there are no pain-receptors in the brain - don't you worry..


      *you can actually make that possible with gene-manipulation you can introduce light-sensitive receptors newly and artificially for science.
      Light at them - they will do something - completely off topic here, though..

    6. #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by StephL View Post
      Sorry kadie - you found something completely unscientific there - I can't leave that stand - better I don't read further back in the thread..
      Please feel free to read back further in the thread, Steph; the OP has little to do with Kadie's post (indeed, it contradicts it -- sorry Kadie!), and much of the other stuff written is most interesting. I think we would welcome your opinion; and I have a feeling it would be most interesting!

      So, if you're still out there, and willing to consider or critique some seriously out-of-the-box stuff...
      Last edited by Sageous; 02-06-2014 at 07:33 PM.
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      Steph, the article states that they have found the crystals in human brain tissue in 69 or something. And.. Unscientific? Ye.. Interesting.. Hell yea! About those Electrogravitationalmagnetic energies circulating brain and bones, To be honest, non of us have any idea where they are coming from. The author probably needs to either do a better job explaining his motives or use correct words atleast. I still think it is interesting non-theless.

      Sorry for going Off-topic, Sageous.
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    8. #58
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      The author probably smoked some strange things.
      Or he tried to describe some futuristic genengineered human or android...
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      Thanks for the thought kadie. I think we can rule out electromagnetics, since its possible to interact with people in dreams even if they are far away and you have no idea where they are. Although we're all in a big electromagnetic field, there would be no way to sort out the information. To use my previous analogy, it would be like trying to see someone's face from the reflection on a carpet. Electromagnetics is just light, so electromagnetic telepathy would be a vastly harder version of the same problem.

      For whatever it may be worth....Last night I dreamed of being in an observatory-like capstone of a mountain-like building. The sky was spinning by, thousands of times faster than the usual rate. I glimpse something that catches my attention, two moons in my field of vision instead of one. I also see the sky shift as if the earth's rotational axis has tilted, while the rotation speed increases, as if we're experiencing some kind of 'earth changes' catastrophe. But I should feel the change in momentum associated with the sky shifting, and I don't feel anything. I see the second moon pass near the first a couple more times, then I see it partially eclipse the first moon, and I can see the first moon through the second moon. This seems to make sense if the second moon is actually a projection from the observatory, not actually something in the sky. Likewise for the catastrophically rotating star-field.

      The second moon is a metaphor for my experience of the muse that facilitates the 'shared dream'. The second 'moon' is some kind of human reflection of a deeper moon-God principle. I've experienced this before. And it doesn't just feel temporal and human, it feels artificial or unnatural somehow.

      I think the second moon is also a metaphor for the 'parallel world' or 'alternative timeline' impressions that we get. In some sense they're not real, they're some kind of reflection.

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      Quote Originally Posted by StephL View Post
      neither is there magnetite in the human brain. We are not birds.
      Could be a funding opportunity for a follow-up study involving human subjects....

      Frontiers in Zoology | Abstract | Dogs are sensitive to small variations of the Earth¿s magnetic field

      [This is a joke - read the synopsis.]
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      wow StephL, Im surprised this brought such a visceral response from you. The article that I posted used preliminary findings from a Cal Teck geologist. Let me ask how can electricity be conducted without trace mineral? I mean if you have some other studies that repute the notion that there is magnetite in humans, then by all means. Anyway, more in line with the OP's "nature" of shared dreaming....I was just bringing up something that could make sense as to how we find each other in dreams, or telepathy or how we can zero in on places far away that we have never seen. As far as getting this thread off track, well sorry OP, that was not my intention. I don't pretend to be the know all, end all, one stop encyclopedia of the "supernatural" portions of dreaming and other phenomena, but I find it almost comical that a few here can hypothesize with a straight face with some of the bullshit, flimsy completly devoid of scientific explanation and then shite on a simple comment and link from me.

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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      This is a joke - read the synopsis.]
      I'm not sure I get the joke.But Idon't think jokes are commonly succesfull if you have to point out that it is a joke in the first place. (that was a joke,btw )

      Either way, are you suggesting we look to see if we are more inclined to piss out crystals when we are facing the northpole more often than not?

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      I see three classes of people:

      1. Those who believe everything is nonsense unless it has either been "explained" with a combination of modeling and hand-waving, or else "proven" with a published and repeated Analysis of Variance study. The existence of 'Class 2' people is regarded as evidence that 'Class 3' people are wrong.
      2. Those with real or phony credentials who sell things to 'Class 3' people, and from a naive standpoint seem to have satisfied the requirements of 'Class 1' people. They don't care what's right or wrong.
      3. People who believe in strange things from personal experience or for other reasons. The existence of 'Class 2' people is commonly regarded as evidence that 'Class 1' people are wrong.

      And so we have a kind of gridlock. The people in Class 1 won't make use of the experiences of people in Class 3 because its an affront to their vanity. The people in Class 3 can't make much progress in their experiences because they lack the understanding that would otherwise come from people in Class 1.

      I'm overgeneralizing with the classes of course.

      Some people are remarkably sensitive to electromagnetic fields, and seem to be able use the earth's electromagnetic field for orientation. (My mom is like this.) So do respected scientists identify and study such people, to see what they can find out? No, such people are by definition crackpots, because there is no known mechanism for such sensitivity in people. But science lurches forward by paying graduate students to collect massive amounts of data on the directions dogs face while shitting. Maybe someday they'll figure out a way to study people.

      In any case, I think we've argued conclusively in other threads that electromagnetic fields can't account for shared dreaming.

      StepL, thanks for providing your insight about brain function, on behalf of myself anyway. Maybe I have some questions about color later, since you seem to know something about the subject. Kadie, I don't think her criticism was at all aimed at you.

    14. #64
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      Quote Originally Posted by kadie View Post
      wow StephL, Im surprised this brought such a visceral response from you. The article that I posted used preliminary findings from a Cal Teck geologist. Let me ask how can electricity be conducted without trace mineral? I mean if you have some other studies that repute the notion that there is magnetite in humans, then by all means. Anyway, more in line with the OP's "nature" of shared dreaming....I was just bringing up something that could make sense as to how we find each other in dreams, or telepathy or how we can zero in on places far away that we have never seen. As far as getting this thread off track, well sorry OP, that was not my intention. I don't pretend to be the know all, end all, one stop encyclopedia of the "supernatural" portions of dreaming and other phenomena, but I find it almost comical that a few here can hypothesize with a straight face with some of the bullshit, flimsy completly devoid of scientific explanation and then shite on a simple comment and link from me.
      Relax, Kadie! Even though it doesn't agree with it, your post was one of the few in this thread that was actually on-topic and trying to offer information that might help answer the questions raised by my OP. I for one welcome that wholeheartedly, and don't feel you've been shit upon here, at leas not by me.

      Now, the reason your post disagrees with mine is that my main problem with shared dreaming is that the transfer of information between dreamers cannot occur using known rules of physics. Even if we have something like a magnetite gland in us, the energy it produces or senses would still not be adequate to cross substantial amounts of space instantly (electromagnetic energy -- from whatever source-- is still governed by the speed of light, plus the amount of energy needed to send and receive information to a specific faraway target probably surpasses anything our brains can generate, gland or no). The whole reason I came up with this "thought energy bubble" nonsense was to present an idea that would allow for dream-sharing to actually work, regardless of distance, time, and those pesky laws of physics... I honestly think that someone offering such a bat-shit-based-on-nothin' hypothesis would be a bit hypocritical if he poo-pooed your idea. I will offer reasons why I don't think the presence of magnetite in a brain would help shared dreaming much, but I wouldn't tell you you were wrong to present it.

      I personally like Steph's abrupt style, because she is not afraid to say what she wants, but I'll leave it up to you two to sort out any differences there, or perhaps to wisely choose not to care.

      So don't worry Kadie, your opinion is as valued as anyone else's here -- perhaps even more so because you chose to stay on topic.

      [As long as I'm here, I'm pretty sure that electromagnetic energy, at least when traveling as light, does not need a trace mineral to move through space... this would also include radio waves and microwaves, among others.]
      Last edited by Sageous; 02-07-2014 at 03:04 AM.

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      Sageous, I posted on my own dream journal the links to California Technical institute and the Full professor who made the discovery in 1992. Also a PDF version of his work. It is not the work of a grad student like shadow of wind claims. This professor is a leader in magnetic geology and bio-magnetite studies. I posted it on my own journal in case anyone wants to look and I did so to NOT clog this thread further.
      My extension of the magnetite idea was my own and not something I read and took as my own. It was just an idea and nothing more. A HMMMM moment and a crap load of drama to boot. Im not that upset, but I do feel like anything I have to say to this group on this thread is a waste of time. You all seem to have your nich and past experiences of group discussions that I am unaware of so I do not understand some of where the attitude is coming from. I do however get the reference that Shadow made in regard to someone wanting shared dreaming experiences for a scientific experiment. I saw that thread yesterday and how that dude was shut down. NO shadowofwind I have nothing to do with that "experiment" and I think it's shameful for you to make such an assumption. I don't play politics on forums, all I was doing was contributing to the thread. I had an idea that bounced off of this idea of the magnetite in relation to the bubbles theory, but it's not worth bringing up for the sake of a peaceful forum thread.
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      Kadie,

      You seem to have almost totally misunderstood what I was saying. My reference to graduate students has nothing to do with the paper you linked to. It refers to the paper I linked to. I also made no assumption about you being linked to that experiment. I believe no such thing. I guess I communicated poorly. I also have no problem at all with the idea that humans are sensitive to electromagnetic fields. To the contrary, I've said I think they are. And most of Steph's criticism wasn't directly related to that or the CTI paper either, it was other stuff about coiled dendrites and whatnot.

      The only thing that I said is that electromagnetic can't account for shared dreaming. I say that as a scientist and engineer working for many years in electromagnetics, and as someone with extensive experience with a weak type of shared dreaming. I've explained this at length elsewhere, and I don't believe anyone with at least a basic understanding of light and signal processing would disagree. Except maybe for Steph, nobody has a problem with your contribution, and she has other issues with shared dreaming that would add a clearer context to her response. This conversation goes back many months, and we don't spell out everything carefully because we don't have much time to post. I don't think anyone is saying what they have appeared to you to be saying.
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      Quote Originally Posted by kadie View Post
      wow StephL, Im surprised this brought such a visceral response from you. The article that I posted used preliminary findings from a Cal Teck geologist. Let me ask how can electricity be conducted without trace mineral? I mean if you have some other studies that repute the notion that there is magnetite in humans, then by all means. Anyway, more in line with the OP's "nature" of shared dreaming....I was just bringing up something that could make sense as to how we find each other in dreams, or telepathy or how we can zero in on places far away that we have never seen. As far as getting this thread off track, well sorry OP, that was not my intention. I don't pretend to be the know all, end all, one stop encyclopedia of the "supernatural" portions of dreaming and other phenomena, but I find it almost comical that a few here can hypothesize with a straight face with some of the bullshit, flimsy completly devoid of scientific explanation and then shite on a simple comment and link from me.
      Bioelectricity is not electricity like in electric net. Electric current is moving of charged particles. Bioelectricity rather uses ions of salts, Ca2+, Mg2+ Cl- Na+, K+ are in body common.... Moving charged particle creates magnetic field(very, very, very weak).
      Electromagnetic wave is also gama rays, X-rays, UV rays, visible light, infrared waves (heat), microwaves, radiowaves, ...
      No mineral is needed. Electric charge flows freely in electrolytes too. You can try it. Dissolve a little amount of kitchen salt in cup and make electrical circuit composed of two wires battery and light bulb(or led diode). If you connect two wires together bulb will shine. now, if you submerge that wires into salt solution, the bulb will shine too. Maybe weaker, since conductivity of solution is dependent on salt concentration, and also there is second effect, as are ions of Na+ and Cl- moving, they are moving in opposite direction and in water. Since ions are much larger than electrons they have much larger resistance for movement. If current is strong enough, then it will be possible to measure heating of solution.

      I found examples of how it works in body on internet.
      For a specific example of this sort of thing in action, one of the most commonly mentioned electrical currents created by the body is our heart rhythm. Our hearts contain a grouping of cells that reside in the upper right portion known as your Sinoatrial node or SA node for short. The cells within the SA node (pacemaker of the heart) contain electrolytes both inside and outside the cells. Some of the most common electrolytes within the body, as mentioned previously, are sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, and chloride. Sodium and calcium generally reside outside the SA nodes cells and potassium lies within. These specialized cells allow much more sodium to enter the cell than allow for potassium to leave it. The result is a continually growing positive charge. Once that charge reaches a certain point, calcium channels open up in the cell membrane and allow for calcium to enter as well. This makes the interior of the cell extremely positive, known as an action potential. Once that potential reaches a certain point, it has enough “power” to discharge down the nerves of the heart. Ah the wonders of chemistry in action!

      In brain it is very similar.

      If shared dream or astral travel is really possible, then there should be something completely different in action. Something science can't measure. If there is soul, then that is something what could this all make possible. If everything we experience is only result of chemical reaction in brain, then the soul is nonexistent, and shared dreams, OBE(astral travels,etc.), mystic experiences... are only illusions, something like fault or deficiency of brain.
      Last edited by Psionik; 02-07-2014 at 04:14 PM.
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      Thank you Sageous - I might take a look!
      Also thanks shadowofwind - it's true - I was just and only going against the last paragraph of H. Coetzee's, PhD.

      I first thought, the above post would come from you kadie - uups - and was already concluding, that this exchange has lead you to look it up and see, how it really works.
      Now this post is in disarray - but I will leave it at what it is now, with slight turnings abouts.
      Okaay - thank you Psionic - that's exactly what I tried to say - thank you for expounding on it further and so well understandably too!

      No piezoelectrics, no metals, no coils, no light-signals, no molecules changing their orientation according to light signals, ...
      It's about ion containing solutions with a gradient in voltage over the membrane. And pores and pumps etc. - same with the heart.

      It wasn't at all against you, kadie - and emotional - well yeah - I am a bit emotional, when it comes to people - not you, your source - bending around facts about the brain. Making it worse by presenting them under the credibility-hat of being a "real professor" - if only off-topic in geology.
      If he tried to talk to a neuroscientist about it - he should soon see, that he can not uphold his claims.
      But I wouldn't have been expressing myself like I did, if I thought, that he is not aware of that.
      I guess, he is fully aware of that, and tries to reach an audience, which is not.
      Or he lost contact with reality, and refuses to learn about neuroscience anything, which would go against his pet-hypothesis.
      Could be - sure.
      I am sorry, if that came in at your end as an attack - I should have made that clearer - I tried taking you out of it with wording it along "you found something" - and I wasn't even aware, that you had built a personal view on top of it.
      Just been jumping in the thread with no intention to post - and then jumping at these clear falsities.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Psionik View Post
      If shared dream or astral travel is really possible, then there should be something completely different in action. Something science can't measure. If there is soul, then that is something what could this all make possible. If everything we experience is only result of chemical reaction in brain, then the soul is nonexistent, and shared dreams, OBE(astral travels,etc.), mystic experiences... are only illusions, something like fault or deficiency of brain.
      ... which nicely clarifies -- or at least gives an excuse to reiterate -- the purpose this thread, I think: We can argue elsewhere about the existence of shared dreaming (or AP/OBE for that matter, and for similar reasons), but let's assume here that it does exist. So, since it happens, how does it happen?

      Since this thread has strayed a bit, I urge anyone coming on now, or who is here but has not read it, to have a quick look at the OP. Be assured that other ideas are welcome (though subject to as much scrutiny as I expect mine to be), but they must address how we can communicate instantly across great distances, and how we can find each other in the process. Tales confirming that you did it really don't help -- unless you were somehow aware of the process as it occurred, which would be most helpful.

      Also, this is not a religion thread: you can believe in shared dreaming or not, you can require scientific proof or not, or somewhere in between, and that shouldn't matter. Say what you think, but don't require someone else to agree with you... this stuff is far enough out there that any such requirement is baseless (at least on this thread!).

      Okay, that's the last I'll say of this, I promise. If we are all truly locked in the Three Classes stalemate that Shadowofwind mentioned above, then this thread is likely moot. But I for one like to think that we are all able to move among our classes (and perhaps temporarily adjust our own), just by paying some respectful attention to each other.

    20. #70
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      Quote Originally Posted by StephL View Post
      Thank you Sageous - I might take a look!
      Also thanks shadowofwind - it's true - I was just and only going against the last paragraph of H. Coetzee's, PhD.

      I first thought, the above post would come from you kadie - uups - and was already concluding, that this exchange has lead you to look it up and see, how it really works.
      Okaay - thank you Psionic - that's exactly what I tried to say - thank you for expounding on it further and so well




      understandably too!

      No piezoelectrics, no metals, no coils, no light-signals, no molecules changing their orientation according to light signals, ...
      It's about ion containing solutions with a gradient in voltage over the membrane. And pores and pumps etc. - same with the heart.


      It wasn't at all against you, kadie - and emotional - well yeah - I am a bit emotional, when it comes to people - not you, your source - bending around facts about the brain. Making it worse by presenting them under the credibility-hat of being a "real professor" - if only off-topic in geology.
      If he tried to talk to a neuroscientist about it - he should soon see, that he can not uphold his claims.
      But I wouldn't have been expressing myself like I did, if I thought, that he is not aware of that.
      I guess, he is fully aware of that, and tries to reach an audience, which is not.
      Or he lost contact with reality, and refuses to learn about neuroscience anything, which would go against his pet-hypothesis.
      Could be - sure.
      I am sorry, if that came in at your end as an attack - I should have made that clearer - I tried taking you out of it with wording it along "you found something" - and I wasn't even aware, that you had built a personal view on top of it.
      Just been jumping at the obvious falsities.
      That was Psionic not me.

      The part of the paper that I was interested in was the formation of magnetite crystals in the human brain. And yes there are magnetite crystals in the brain. If you look at the linnks in my DJ, you will find the pictures of them. Anyway, no harm no foul.


      @ psionic and Sageous,

      I made the comment about minerals needed for conduction because I know very well that there is calcium, magneseum and other minerals in the human body, so why is it so hard to believe that there is biomagnetite?

      My full idea was that with magnetite in the human body, and ferrous-like crystals that orientate in the direction of for simple terms....a magnate (hypothetically) speaking (This is my what if question) Couldnt it be POSSIBLE for other humans with a similarly oriented magnetite/ferrous crystalline makeup to be drawn to one another in a sense that we might call telepathic. Like the bubble idea, but with a different spin. 2 or more people with similar crystalline makeup being drawn to one another, not by the earths magnetic field, but by our own magnetic fields with the earths magnetic fields filling in the gaps of the distance between dreamers or the bubbles?

      So anyway, I really was not disputing anything other than the presence of magnetite in our bodies.
      Also, I know that how I think about something does not translate well when I type. It's a learning disability or something and I have said as much on another thread.
      So it's back to the drawing board for me since it seems that I have a non starter anyway.

    21. #71
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      Kadie - there are pictures of magnetite in the olfactory cells of fish (trout).
      I do know - as I said above "we are not birds" - that birds and also other vertebrates do indeed have said magnetite - and a lot more interesting electro-magnetic special effects.
      That is long established.
      But that's not the human brain.

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      So it's back to the drawing board for me since it seems that I have a non starter anyway.
      ^^ Well, not entirely back to the drawing board, Kadie.

      Your magnetite idea -- or the concept that there is some sort of physical receiver, even if not specifically magnetite -- could go a long way toward explaining the "how" of the reception end of dream-sharing. Perhaps we do have some physical process that allows for reception of other people's conscious thoughts/dreams -- or, rather, perhaps one of our physical processes has evolved a bit to include that ability in its retinue.

      Still, though, this leaves the transmission part in question, as it does the ability to separate a particular individual's thoughts from the general ocean of thoughts being "transmitted" all the time (though I think we're coming to a conclusion that some personal intimacy between sharers is most helpful). Also, given that our personally emitted magnetic fields are simply too weak to "transmit" on their own, there must be something beyond just that emission.

      Still, if there were a physical (and not just a consciousness-based, effectively non-physical) process involved at some point, that would give us a jumping-off point.

      ... would that science gave a crap about this stuff!

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      here is the link to the pdf with the image of the magnetite taken from a sample of human brain tissue.

      http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~jkirschv...Finalwfigs.PDF

      look at page 8 as you scroll or page 146 on the pdf header for the page number.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      ... which nicely clarifies -- or at least gives an excuse to reiterate -- the purpose this thread, I think: We can argue elsewhere about the existence of shared dreaming (or AP/OBE for that matter, and for similar reasons), but let's assume here that it does exist. So, since it happens, how does it happen?

      Since this thread has strayed a bit, I urge anyone coming on now, or who is here but has not read it, to have a quick look at the OP. Be assured that other ideas are welcome (though subject to as much scrutiny as I expect mine to be), but they must address how we can communicate instantly across great distances, and how we can find each other in the process. Tales confirming that you did it really don't help -- unless you were somehow aware of the process as it occurred, which would be most helpful.

      Also, this is not a religion thread: you can believe in shared dreaming or not, you can require scientific proof or not, or somewhere in between, and that shouldn't matter. Say what you think, but don't require someone else to agree with you... this stuff is far enough out there that any such requirement is baseless (at least on this thread!).

      Okay, that's the last I'll say of this, I promise. If we are all truly locked in the Three Classes stalemate that Shadowofwind mentioned above, then this thread is likely moot. But I for one like to think that we are all able to move among our classes (and perhaps temporarily adjust our own), just by paying some respectful attention to each other.
      My working theory is, the LD (shared dream) is a form of fantasy where are maybe sparsely strewed pieces of true information. It comes from our soul... but is filtered and watered down through our senses and imagination which is trying to fill out perceived holes...
      In OBE there is low amount of imagination. So there is strong feeling of reality... But even then there are holes in perceived information.

      I'm not sure of function of biomagnetite nanocrystals in body(maybe they are rudiments of times when animals humans evolved from needed extra orientation senses... Or they are waste of metabolism or reserve of iron in body? But body needs Fe2+, not Fe3+), but I don't believe that they have function such as telepathy, shared dreaming, extrasensory perception. Those mystic abilities must go outside of physical world as we know it in presence.

      Biomagnetite shouldn't be very magnetic... Otherwise anyone going through fields like in MRI would be in serious health risk(I think it would be life threatening since reorientation of crystals would damage brain tissue, and strong field wouldn't do only reorientation, it would attract anything ferromagnetic at least on inner side of skull), as the fields there are reaching 7 Tesla.

      Other question, why would some people attract because of magnetic field orientation? If I take in mind that earth field is maybe 100000x stronger than magnetic field of brain, then it would mask it. It simply wouldn't be detectable. Next part is a thing of orientation, it is simple thing of changing physical orientation of magnet and two of them would attract.

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      Magnetite interacts over a million times more strongly with external magnetic fields than any other biological material, Dr. Kirschvink said, including the iron in red blood cells. If only one cell in a million contains magnetite, he said, magnetic fields could exert an effect on the tissue,
      sorry I cant help myself. I think it has merit.
      I don't live too far from Cal Tec, maybe I could just ask the guy what he thins right? Lol yeah, just mosey on down to the lecture room and ask.
      also his wife is Atsuko Kobayashi - Kirschvink a neurobiological electron microscopist.

      @ Sageous, I think if you take what I found by these Cal Teck scientists and actually read their findings, it is reasonable to imagine the crystalline nature and imagine if you will the movement almost like sillia in the digestional track moving and swaying to different pulls of magnetic whatever-energy? In a sphere around any one person, there are many more impressions from other magnetic sources so those little crystals that i imagine as wavy cillia become oriented in all kinds of crazy directions as an effect of the world environment, and on to the next person and so on...etc. maybe the "Collective Conscious" that you mentioned in the OP is an extension of these little teeny tiny particles of magnetite and ferrous crystalline particles that become changed with every contact we make until there is at the same time a melting of experience and sense and yet an individual orientation of each person?


      Also, here is an article Called measuring the magnetism of light.
      http://physics.aps.org/story/v26/st13

      Maybe this is what the article that i origionally posted was eluding to and not so much about the way StephL was talking about?
      Last edited by kadie; 02-07-2014 at 05:47 PM. Reason: added instead of posting a new post.
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