Thread: What is the evidence that dreams are produced by the brain ?

I think we may be losing something in translation, Steph, but I'll try again:

Hehe - your humble "period" - yepp, that´s what I stumbled over!

No, no.. I put in the word "period" after I said Nailler was making an excellent point; by doing so I implied that from my point of view no more need be said. Including that word was a judgmental thing to do; I was not having a judgmental period (at least not then). But I guess none of that matters at all at this point, so time to move on.

Some other thoughts:

Originally Posted by StephL

Because I felt - up to then, you had always left it open, if there is a spiritual world or not. With this - it seemed, somehow your questions would have found an answer with Nailler´s post.
A good one, in some ways - but just I could not fathom, what it was that had seemingly swayed you.

I still leave it open that there is a spiritual world, and nothing in Nailler's post "swayed" me about anything. Rather, he was indicating something I was already noticing, based on thoughts I've held for a very long time. Though I'm not interested in repeating all the stuff in my last post, I must note again that I was not saying that there is a tangibly existent spiritual world (now there's an oxymoron!). That more I kept repeating up there was a sense, a feeling, deeply embedded in our psyches, based firmly on our imaginations, our fear of death, our anecdotal experiences, and an archetypical insertion of a sense of or need formore into the very fabric of our beings for uncounted generations. That more might not exist; it may never have existed, and may never exist; but the sense of it is practically universal. That's what I was saying, and not that there is a literal spiritual world. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

But I personally do not feel as if it has been pointed out to me, that the scientific and the spiritual are both constantly swirling in my world. I do not feel anything substantially new to this discussion was pointed out to me there.

I was speaking in generalities, of course, and don't dare suggest that I know what is in your specific head. There are exceptions to every rule, and you certainly might not have any sense of that more, that spirituality, in your head. However, after reading so many of your posts and knowing your interest in something as unplugged from scientific reality as dreaming and lucid dreaming, I would bet that you've got more spiritual stuff swirling around in you than you might currently think. That is not a bad thing, and doesn't imply things like "crazy" or "naive" at all, either ... it just says that you too might want there to be more. Again, I could be wrong, but I felt it worth taking a moment to pay you the compliment.

And towards the question of where dreams come from - my answer is:
There is no compelling evidence, that dreams come from anywhere else than the brain.

Okay, and I agree. I think I already had done that, several times, but I'll do it again: In my opinion, dreams -- and all the other stuff that define and sustain our personalities, consciousness, and souls, for that matter -- are indeed processed in and by the brain. However, in my opinion, that process is only the beginning, and it is worth considering that perhaps the stuff of our thoughts has a longer shelf-life and greater reach than just the distance of a few crossed synapses. I think I've been fairly consistent with this thought, and not just here. That also is why I asked that question about from where, then, do dreams come.

What you seem to do in this last paragraph is - you first pose this world as existent.

No, I do not. Again, I'm sorry you misunderstood that; I am often too nuanced for my own good sometimes!

Then you say - if it is there in the first place, then dreams could certainly, or maybe must certainly come (also) from it.
Yepp - if it was there - then I would also bring it together with the very phenomena it has been thought up for.
But - there is your burning question once more: where is it??

Again, the sense a spiritual world (of that more) is there, and not the spiritual world itself. There is an enormous difference. Where is it, that spiritual world? It is in your head, in your thoughts, in your dreams. It may exist elsewhere as well, in some form or another, but that is both not known and, from my perspective, unimportant relative to what I was trying to say.

Also, and I promise I'll say it for the last time, that "swirling about" of which I spoke was one of your own perceptions, your own imaginings, and your own hopes and dreams ("your," of course, being anyone's, and not specifically you). I wasn't talking about some physical spiritual essence swirling physically in your mind, just as I wasn't talking about some physical scientific essence swirling about. I was also using the perspective of consciousness, and not the nuts-and-bolts of firing neurons and other organic brain activity. You probably already knew this, but I figured it would not hurt to make the distinction clear.

Also - the post you quoted brought up several aspects, where it really interests me, what you think in terms of:

What is the mind?
What is the spirit?
What are the differences between them as to where they reside, how they work, what they do for your functional "whole person"?
How do they exchange information?
Where does the brain come in?

I'm going to dodge all these questions, considering that each would rate an entire book (or three) to answer, and a few words on a web post will only serve to muddle, not confirm, define, or enlighten. Were you just being rhetorical?

That said, here are some extremely brief direct responses to your questions, based on things I've already said here and elsewhere:

* The mind is the accumulation of our thoughts, memories, and sentient activities (all our "I think, therefore I am" moments). It is essentially the mechanism of our selves, and it is certainly (in my opinion) originally sourced in brain activity -- but it might not be limited to brain activity; it may even have a potential to transcend that activity (oh, crap, there's that word -- please trust that I'm not just casually throwing it out there!

* The spirit is the result of all that accumulation, the non-physical essence of the personalities that we have spent our lifetimes assembling. It is the framework of our identity, and personality. In a sense, spirit is the "sum of the parts" of brain activity, memory, consciousness, dreams. There may be more to spirit, perhaps something truly physical (like that thought energy I think I posited about earlier). Yes, there may be, and I for one hope there is (and work every day towards discovering there is), but for now it exists only as the stuff of our consciousness. However, as that stuff, it must be a participant in the production of dreams -- which is why I said that spirit ought to be included in the formula for dream production.

* How do they exchange information? Dreams themselves may be the answer to that question, but it is likely far more complicated in process -- though probably quite simple in definition:

They are not "exchanging" information at all! Your personality, the "You" in all this, encompasses everything that is going on in you, be it mind brain activity, dreams, spiritual meanderings, whatever. Communication in essence does not exist, because all parts are always in contact with all the other parts. This includes communications between the unconscious and conscious minds as well, though I do lapse occasionally into separating them into two separate places (I shouldn't do that, but 50 years of Western input have pretty much conditioned me to doing so).

* Finally, the brain comes in as the progenitor to it all, the center for our entire lives of perception, cognition, memory, personality, and interaction with reality. What happens after our lives end, or after we discover and harness that currently fantasized thought energy, is anyone's guess, but suffice it to say that the brain is the keystone to our existence for as long as we are alive.

Again, entire books can be written in answer to each of these questions, so be assured that all the answers are profoundly incomplete and extremely arguable, for lack of many, many pages of clarifications.

How does the dualistic system do it´s work here?

I was going to simply delete this question and hope it got forgotten, but what the hell? I'm here. I think the dualistic system, as much as there is one, is an invention of convenience that helps us make sense of reality. I don't think it has to do anything here, because dreams are literally a non-dualistic event (everything in a dream is "You," there is no outside influence, no need for an observer/observed interchange). Indeed, dualism tends to damage dreaming, both because it tends to apply (often very incorrect) meanings or explanations to what happened long after the dream occurred, and also because the potentials of lucid dreams are diminished when we observe them during the dream with a dualistic attitude.

And, again, books can and have been written about dualism, so this answer is certainly not nearly enough.

Okay, I'm out of time, Steph -- I had honestly hoped that my one-line comment to Nailler said it all -- apparently not!

I certainly hope I was more clear this time...