Thread: Deeper than REM?

I have one instance recorded in my current journal, all I saw was one picture, the others went by way too fast for me to get them but from what I have:

"It was an abstract image which somehow gave me the idea that you could fight people to get stronger"

That's it. I didn't feel anyhow except for uncaring

You don't dream only in REM: a small portion of your dreams occur in other phases of sleep. Research seems to show that non-REM dreams are much less exotic, less vivid, and much more like visual flashbacks of daily residue, which all hits exactly with your description of the experience. Also, stage 2 sleep (characterized by the present of sleep spindles), was pointed out in some researchs as a "sweet spot" for memory consolidation, so that would explain the "different kind" of dreams we have during that period.

I heard some people mentioning this (even performing WILD during N-rem), and I'd recommend you talking to Sageous (if he doesn't spot this thread), because he's actually been working on non-rem lucid dreaming for a while afair.

*Waits for the show to start *

PS: If you allow me to throw some speculation on this event, if you ask me "Why don't we often lucid dream outside of REM then?", the answer is likely because in deep sleep, your brain activity is much lower than REM, and your sensory systems are kept to an absolute minimum, and your consciousness is effectively gone for most part. As such, it is way harder to produce lucidity.

12/01/13 Trying to Heal WakingNomad with DV points. - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream ViewsnREM Frustrating Lucid - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views12/04/12 Cartoon LD with Cartoon Snow TOtM - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


Those are 3 randomly grabbed dreams from my DJ that do not take place in REM. With a good attitude and practice exploring nREM opens allsorts of fun adventures. Different, but fun.

Sivason, the dream about replaying the content of the game over and over. That's some of what I experience a lot, and it's really uncomfortable. Sometimes when I stop it, there is a void with randomly floating thoughts and images floating by. What's really frustrating is that I feel as though I can't escape from those kinds of dreams. Normally I can end a dream whenever I want but those ones, it's like I can stop or at least quell the madness but I am still stuck there, silently watching.

I've stopped trying to maintain lucidity into these states of dreaming because it is so uncomfortable, but it feels intuitively like there is some kind of secret or power in that state. And I really want to figure it out.

Is there a state that is even deeper than the less exotic, less vivid, and much more like visual flashbacks of daily residue state, where we experience memory consolidation?

What kind of adventures could you have in nREM? Are you talking about edgar cayce stuff, like with your first dream example?

edit: Stage 4 sleep! can we maintain awareness during that?

Originally Posted by anotherdreamer

..where I remain conscious for almost the entire night of sleep...

When does this start for you?
From a LD in REM - just staying "tuned in"? Does this exhaust you?
Or do you - or does anybody in general enter lucidity from a point in the beginning of the sleep cycle? Even going to bed?

I know that this is not recommended - or rather even silly for "normal" LDers - due to being so difficult and not getting you into REM-dreams.
But is this how you do it sivason - or Sageous*, or whoever other adept out there?
I wonder - I read somewhere that after years and years of practice - esp. sleep-yoga - this is possible.
Btw. - loving your animated cartoonish snowflakes, sivason!

*I am afraid, I might have already read about how you do it, but unfortunately forgot..


Edit:

Originally Posted by anotherdreamer

but it feels intuitively like there is some kind of secret or power in that state. And I really want to figure it out.

Do you have glimpses of that already?
Or a theory, where this might lead to - making it worth your while and energy?

Originally Posted by anotherdreamer

Is there a state that is even deeper than the less exotic, less vivid, and much more like visual flashbacks of daily residue state, where we experience memory consolidation?
edit: Stage 4 sleep! can we maintain awareness during that?

Stage 4 is REM (nowadays, anyway). The field is starting to think that we should grow out of this N-REM/REM concept, because it's becoming harder and harder to make sense of this drawing of the line when many phases seem to overlap in terms of events (like presence of rapid-eye-movement outside REM, or even non-distinguishable non-rem and rem dreams).

Btw, I haven't read it yet, but this is a recent proof that expert meditators/mindfulness practicers do really change their neuronal activity during sleep.

Thanks for that article Zoth!

As I understood it - also only flying over - they did test the long term meditators in sleep for methodological reasons.
They wanted to see if there is something different, even while they do not meditate.
The question, whether there were LDers among them - or even dream-meditators - does not show up, though..

An important question raised by these studies is whether
enhanced EEG activity is state dependent (e.g.– occurring only
during meditation and immediately after it), or trait dependent
(e.g. – occurring outside of formal meditation practice) [5].

The latter would suggests that long-term meditation training causes
lasting neuro-plastic changes in cortico-thalamic circuits, which
should be detected in the spontaneous brain activity [9].

This question is difficult to address because meditation training occurs
at multiple time-scales. For example it can happen intensively, as
during meditation retreats, or less intensively but across a longer
period, as during daily practice. Training also occurs, in different
contexts, either during formal practice, or when the practitioner
intentionally cultivates meditative qualities within her/his daily
activities. Another critical methodological issue is that resting state
in meditation experts may be an elusive concept. Indeed, it is
possible that during wakefulness a meditator may spontaneously
enter a meditative state while "at rest" as a consequence of his/her
level of training.

However, during sleep brain activity is directed
by neither conscious effort nor attention, but rather reflects the
intrinsic function of cortico-cortical and cortico-thalamic circuits
Thus, the examination of sleep EEG is an effective means to
identify individual trait differences in the brain unconfounded by
the effect of meditation on waking mentation. [...

It seems to me, according to what i have read from " the tibetan yoga of dream and sleep " and others, that you are merging deep sleep lucidity with dream lucidity, which is a natural long term "effect" of lucid dreams and it is an important reason why they practice lucid dreaming . According to that book, dream lucidity is level one, deep sleep level two and then, pretty much 24 hour of meditation. I don´t know how to translate this into scientific correlates, but i will read this thread carefully and see what i can learn from you guys ( btw, sometimes i have this bad habit to first post my thoughts and then read all other posts ..)

edit: very nice study Zoth ( Davidson and Lutz are experts on meditation ) and nice remark on this, StephL.

Originally Posted by StephL

When does this start for you?
From a LD in REM - just staying "tuned in"? Does this exhaust you?

I only did this fully, one time, when I was first getting really into dream yoga. I was determined to stay aware for the whole night, from laying down in bed to getting up in the morning. And it actually happened, I couldn't believe it when I woke up. It also was extremely exhausting, maybe not exactly physically. But it was kind of like how it feels when I hang out with people for a long time (I'm super introvert), and I feel drained afterwards. I haven't tried to do it since because it wasn't very much fun or satisfying for me other than having done it.

Originally Posted by StephL

Do you have glimpses of that already?
Or a theory, where this might lead to - making it worth your while and energy?

I have not had aNY glimpses, but I have a strong, intuitive feeling about it and these feelings are not usually wrong. I theorize that it could be powerful in exactly what sivason's first dream example of trying to heal nomad was. I expect that dream example is only one of many applications in this state.

Vagaltone - I have been practicing dream yoga for a few years now, I keep trying to attain the clear light dream state or, luminous clarity. It is something that is a pretty big goal for me, and I have yet to even come close I wonder if anyone else reading this has?

Originally Posted by anotherdreamer

Vagaltone - I have been practicing dream yoga for a few years now, I keep trying to attain the clear light dream state or, luminous clarity. It is something that is a pretty big goal for me, and I have yet to even come close I wonder if anyone else reading this has?

Sure, but it is not all that impressive. I suppose the Buddhists think it is some supreme state. They like the idea of fleeing this realm and attempting to merge back into the unity. Yawn,,, oh sorry. I guess that is a whole separate issue. Try it out, it is a good goal, and certainly interesting. Can you really call it interesting though? When you get there, you are no longer you, so there is no you to be interested. Sorry, you got me side tracked. Anyways, here is a DJ entry on it,

05/26/12 Clear Light of the Mind-Yawn - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Back to the OP. How can you get nREM lucids? Two ways can be used at first, and then later you just are able to observe almost anything during sleep, so nREM or REM makes no difference. The two easier methods? First, get awesome at stabilizing. Then in a normal REM lucid refuse to wake or loose the dream. Keep stabilizing, even if it leaves no time to play. Do what it takes to stay in the dream. REM only lasts so long, so if you stay lucid, it will shift into various nREM states. That is one way. The other is get really good at WILD. Not the WILD where you fall asleep and stay slightly aware for a couple minutes and must stumble on a good REM dream in that time. I mean the kind of deep meditation WILD that allows you to stay aware and truly aware, despite the fact that the body has fallen asleep. The kind of WILD that causes HH and HI on a big scale. Serious HH are taking place in nREM1. Yay! That means many of our members have already observed one level of nREM. In that state you can still feel your body slightly. If you stick with it, your bodily awareness will fall to perhaps 5% of its waking level. If REM does not hit, where are you? In nREM is a likely answer. The problem with having a lucid experience here is expectations. If you are watching for the standard REM kind of thing, it is not going to work.

Let me dig up a couple DJ entries to help you all see what I mean about how learning to LD in nREM can open up a whole new world of adventure,

Ok, this first one is an example of a purely nREM LD, and as you can see is still interesting and worth experiencing.

02/29/12 I Must be a Shadow WILD - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

And then there is these next two, which start in nREM and eventually REM starts. The reverse of this process would get one into nREM instead.

03/18/12 Flying snake and the Sputnick Harley WILD - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

08/14/12 WILD. Over an hour of nREM LD to get 10 minutes in REM only to fall prey to a FA - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


Finally, as far as the idea that this kind of sleep is involved with memory consolidation and learning, that is 100% true. That is also why it can be uncomfortable and a burden to be lucid through. Trust me, maintaining lucidity through every phase of sleep can be exhausting. A lot of nREM stuff is repetitive to the extreme. It also is often something that refuses to be redirected. You may be stuck in a 1 minute long dream loop about something that you are studying at school, and have it repeat a few dozen times. I often use my skill at LD just to force myself to stop this kind of dreaming. I do not assume it is good for me to reject this form of dream, but my god, being aware during it is tiring. So, finally, here is a DJ entry to show what that is like,

09/15/12 DILD Burning Down My Work. - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




Oh wait, let me add a thought about that study. This is why I try to get people to understand or believe that the meditation and yoga stuff is the only real way to master LDing. You are trying op physically change the neural pathways in your brain. My brain must be severely remodeled after so long. The stuff they are calling "lasting neuro-plastic changes in cortico-thalamic circuits" that is what my class is all about. Nice to see research into this.

Originally Posted by sivason

Sure, but it is not all that impressive. I suppose the Buddhists think it is some supreme state. They like the idea of fleeing this realm and attempting to merge back into the unity. Yawn,,, oh sorry. I guess that is a whole separate issue. Try it out, it is a good goal, and certainly interesting. Can you really call it interesting though? When you get there, you are no longer you, so there is no you to be interested.

Just as I suspected! Yea I don't personally believe in the idea that there is an ultimate goal; I don't think that what is called 'enlightenment' is the end. I remember I read this emerald tablet of thoth text once on crystallinks, you've probably read it too ( crystalinks.com/emerald.html ). In it, the author talks about how you will always find your goal fleeting as you approach it, and that even the 'lords of the cycles' are still trying to realize their own goals. But the clear light dream seems like a really cool state to experience at least once, kind of like being aware through an entire night of sleep.

But back to what the topic is about, I didn't realize that those kinds of dreams were nREM. What exactly are HH and HI? Are those terms that are used to describe the sounds and images that you hear and see when you're in that first stage of sleep and about to dream?

How can you tell the difference between REM and nREM, is it just a difference in the vividness of the experience? I know that when I am doing the WBTB WILD thing, it always starts out as everything in the dream being almost transparent and dark, sometimes without much color, almost like trying to watch a channel that your TV didn't receive back in the day. Is that nREM?

That last DJ you shared with the memory consolidation, I almost cringed reading it because I hate being in that state so much. When I was little, my mom used to give me Nyquil sometimes and I was guaranteed to experience something like that every time and it was horrible. I will never take Nyquil again.

There is one dream that I had 5 or 6 years ago that I will never forget and it wasn't quite a REM dream and it wasn't quite what you have described as being nREM. I don't have a DJ so I will just type it here, sorry

I was in my parents house and the sun was just rising over the mountains, I felt like something was strange so I did one of the RCs that I always do (I try to move something with my mind). A table flipped over and I knew. What was really unusual about this particular dream was the vividness. The whole thing was a level of vividness that I have never experienced before or since, it far surpassed what the waking world looks like. I wouldn't even know how to describe the deep richness and beauty of everything. I walked through the window to get outside and there were about 30-40 people in the driveway that came out of nowhere and yelled, "SURPRISE!"

They all started shaking my hand and giving me hugs like they hadn't seen me in years, congratulating me for something that they called a big landmark. I have no idea what the hell they were all so excited about. But I saw a few of these kids that were about 6 years old and wearing roller skates. I somehow knew them very well and was really excited to see them because I felt like I hadn't seen them in forever. They felt like very, very old friends. The leader was a soft, confident, and kind little girl, very much like that little girl in the beginning of the movie UP. She told us all, "C'mon! let's get going". So we all started flying into the sky until we saw a cloud that was filled with golden light, which we then flew into.

At this point I lost lucidity and I don't remember what happened at all. The next part I remember, I was sitting in my childhood room that I grew up in, I was about 6 years old too, and I was blissfully happy and peaceful. There was a soft, warm, golden light shining through a glass door that led outside and I was just sitting in the room, creating something. The dream was still extremely vivid. That little girl then knocked on the glass door and said that it was time to go. I told her that I didn't want to leave, but she tricked me into leaving the room and coming outside. Then she made a big grin, laughed, and said, "C YA!"

Then I woke up.

Sorry this post is so long, is there a name for that kind of dream? or state of dreaming? Do you think it's just regular REM, because it sure didn't feel like it.

I think maybe we dream every second we are asleep, including in delta phase. I think it's possible that may be when we have our god-mode type of powerful epic dreams.

Trust me, maintaining lucidity through every phase of sleep can be exhausting

Sivason, i don´t have much personal experience and surely no authority, but these are my thoughts on this, which are still in a very young and maturative stage, so i am not claiming anything, and my mind is hopefully open.


I often think that if i doze off during a good massage i lose many interesting relaxing sensations, but if i keep a thin thread of awareness, i might actually enjoy it much more.

Sivason, i have also heard other people say it is the most relaxing state you can get. For instance, when i close my eyes in a lucid dream, it often blacks out and i am left with a sensation of atonia and relaxation ( Alan Wallace says this is the easiest technique to go into dreamless sleep ).

Another recent source attesting the replenishing effect of midfulness of sleep, and rejecting the idea that it is unpleasant, is Charlie Morley in this interview ( sadly i don´t remember the exact time, but it is an interesting interview if you wanna check out )

Finally, is this the same thing as yoga nidra ? is this the same as clear light sleep ? Isn´t it supposed to be relaxing most of the time?

Interested to see your thoughts and everyone else.

What you need to understand is that nREM covers every type of sleep that is not REM. it covers a wide range of experiences. I doubt anyone has a complete grasp on how many and what forms this can include. Some nREM is wonderful, but IMHO not the memory building portion. Also you could compare it to hallucinogenic compounds. That is, some cause good feeling and some unpleasant ones. Salvia is not fun for most people but psylisbyn is. Awareness in sleep is like that. Some stages are worth being there for and some are not.

Clear light dreams are not really part of normal sleep. It is more of an advanced yogic state of altered conciousness. It is suppossed to be a form of union with something like God. I think it is just giving up your individual perspective and almost ceasing to exist as an entity.

I think that movie was called Inception or something.