Thread: Memory: the Forgotten Fundamental

Originally Posted by Travis E.

My first attempt to fly/hover failed ... then I attempted telekinesis on objects and on my cat ... I was going to try to pick it up and toss it into the air, but I woke up as I was picking it up.

Sounds like a new type of RC, grab your pet and toss it in the air if it flies your dreaming

I would try it but then all my pets are birds he he

Fantastic thread - thanks all of you!!
Lovely concise and insightful posts, TheUncanny!



If I remember real life minuta correctly seems to mainly depend on if I even try, but I usually don't.

Sivason and TheUncanny used the word "witnessing", which strikes a chord with me.
To be lucid, there needs to be somebody home* for witnessing and evaluating our (automatic) thinking processes, perceptions and actions.

Fittingly, what lights up on fMRI when people get lucid are the centres for metacognition - the witness-function in a way.
http://www.dreamviews.com/lucid-drea...ess-brain.html
Clear increases in activity of brain-regions classically associated with memory in lucidity have not been found in fMRI studies, maybe not yet.

I believe you Sageous that memory exercises in lucidity can, maybe vastly, empower "the one being at home", broadening her scope for self-assessment.
I will give it consideration the next time around, attempt to retrieve the hard facts and context of real life, and watch out for changes in dream-control!


What you need primarily is that type of memory which facilitates a clear picture of your self-construct. Maybe that doesn't require much hard data and autobiographical acuity in principle, like Sivason suggests.

Might staying in a bit of a dreamy state of mind be even beneficial - could one actually wake up from too much assimilation of one's waking mindset? Do you think so maybe, Sivason*, or why not chime in with Sageous and say the more awareness of the details of one's current real life context the better?
It seems dream-control potentially suffers from it and several people wake up in the process. I need to experiment for myself, but expect it to do me good, not saying you would suggest the opposite of course, I do understand that.


Just at the side, not for comparison or anything - how about simple maths or something like this, did somebody try, aiming at more concentration and cognitive boost for example?











But actually and before writing the above, I just wanted to comment on a side-issue from the aim of the thread, namely dream-to-dream memory. Like you mentioned it Sensei - if I repeat a lucid task, I believe I also remember the prior attempts quite clearly and spontaneously.

But also many of my normal dreams share places, people and scenarios with each other, which have no, or no recent connection with my life. Some have no basis in real life at all, like certain recurring landscapes/buildings.

And I am aware of remembering as well at that time, as far as normal dream-awareness goes, but that is not nowhere.
Like thinking: Ah! I have this little house hidden in the mountains - lets go there!

There seems to be a sort of script or setting, in which these are enmeshed, like semi-permanent fixtures maybe.
Does somebody see what I mean and maybe share this phenomenon and impression?

Inspired by the below video, I think about this in the metaphor of a glacial landscape:

The more you dream of certain features, the more the glacier of your dream-experience forges passages through a matrix. And the following dream-experiences will find a less resistant route to flow along following up from there. Surging strong forces forging new paths at critical points, some routes collapsing, filling up, being blocked from flow...

Something like this - I needed to re-watch to find out how they phrased this. Video is rather off-topic, I just thought of it, but they talk about yet another aspect of dreams and memory, namely consolidation as well, very interesting newish science.

Originally Posted by StephL

Despite the title, the original question:
Is there a connection between the state of dreaming and esp. lucid dreaming with the experiences generated by Ayahuasca?
is rather underrepresented, the scientist mainly spends time with more general but fascinating dream research.

They have identified a gene and its product, which gets markedly activated, when a memory consolidation takes place while dreaming for example. They held rats in a boring environments, where there was nothing to learn, and rats with toys and labyrinths and stuff - and these did indeed activate that gene in REM - and also other activation patterns with different methods.
I honestly wonder if this find is as easy to interpret as it seems on first glance, though.

Not meant as an incentive to consume entheogens - it belongs to a lecture-series put forth by MAPS - they are renowned for their scientific and sensible approach on this controversial topic - non-profit too.

*define that and get a Nobel Price...

Originally Posted by StephL

The more you dream of certain features, the more the glacier of your dream-experience forges passages through a matrix. And the following dream-experiences will find a less resistant route to flow along following up from there. Surging strong forces forging new paths at critical points, some routes collapsing, filling up, being blocked from flow...

This is a very interesting theory, and I should watch the video before I comment but I don't have the time now.

It is hard for me to believe that we create more and more stability in our dream world as we visit it, because the opposite has happened to me. When I was a kid, I had a lot of those experiences, almost every night, where I would go to places that were mine and I would recognize them. But now it never happens anymore. I am always in new places, and I do miss my childhood dreams where I had a relatively stable world. For example, when I was a kid, I had the whole village where I lived mapped out but only my own house was accurate, the rest was an invention of mine, but I always liked to explore beyond my house and recognize the other times I had went there (in dreams). There was a path in the forest that was always the same. I had a "house" that was my own. You had to cross a river infested with beavers to get there. My second house had a third floor with a ghost in it. And the basement also had ghosts. These extra places in my house didn't exist in waking life. The garden outside my house was always the same in my dreams, but not the same as in real life. There was a very awesome giant snow slide park that I liked going to in my dreams. And the list goes on. I have lost all of these stable places with age.

So, it doesn't seem intuitive to me that dream-to-dream memory stabilizes our personal dreamscape. But maybe I am misinterpreting something.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I think I already said this to Travis, but those preconceptions would do just the opposite, were waking-life self-awareness and memory fully on hand. Your preconceptions will amplify the non-reality of the dream, and not diminish it. If they're creeping in in a manner that impairs your control, you might actually be experiencing your self-awareness and memory levels creeping out a bit. I'm sorry, again, if this sounds harsh or condescending (it was not meant to be!) but I think it needed mentioning: because memory has been so forgotten in the lexicon of the LD'ing community, I can see how you can assume you are very lucid even though memory is not accessed.

In retrospect, perhaps the term "waking awareness" is a bit of an entendre. A more accurate term would be my "waking mentality", or the manner in which I think while in waking life. Part of this mentality is logic and awareness, such as recognizing when I'm in a dream, and that dreams are illusions not bound by physical laws. However, another part of this mentality consists of conditioned preconceptions about the fundamental nature of reality, and these deeply engrained constructs are not always receptive to the logic/awareness you try to impose while in a lucid dream.

Personally speaking, I've had far more LDs where I've felt "limited" in some way than those where I've felt completely unbound by limitations. And because most of my LDs have been WILDs, I feel confident in saying that this wasn't the result of not understanding the circumstances. But despite knowing without a doubt that I was dreaming, and despite knowing that dreams were not real, I often felt like I was swimming against an invisible current that insisted things behaved a certain way. Sometimes my will would trump this current, sometimes it wouldn't, but rarely has that current ever not been present to some degree in my dreams. I suppose it's my subconscious.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I think I would go with the "partial" waking awareness conclusion. Take the next step up -- regain access to memory -- and that impairment will most certainly be cured.

This is what I'm hoping. In theory, there's no reason why our lucid dreams can't be as controllable as our waking imaginations or daydreams. I'm hoping that waking awareness/memory access is one of those things that, while it may temporarily lead to less control before it leads to more control, will ultimately be the key to having complete dominion over the dream itself.

P.S. sorry to keep bringing up dream control

Just an observation about awareness and memory. In the sense of Eastern contemplative practice, isn't memory and how the subconscious manipulates it at the heart of many of the distractions that diminish awareness, and meditative practice trains one to recognize while neither judging, rejecting or clinging?

Maybe I'm just looking at this from the wrong perspective or not comprehending the usage of the two terms for the purpose of lucid dreaming?

Originally Posted by StephL

I believe you Sageous that memory exercises in lucidity can, maybe vastly, empower "the one being at home", broadening her scope for self-assessment.
I will give it consideration the next time around, attempt to retrieve the hard facts and context of real life, and watch out for changes in dream-control!

Not so much hard facts and context, Steph, as remembering the simple fact of your current waking-life condition (being asleep in bed), with that action of remembering being far more important than the thing you are remembering. The important part about remembering your sleeping body is that you are not retrieving a specific memory (we really don't store a memory of being asleep in bed), but nudging your memory with a reminder of waking-life reality. This reality will both help pull your memory into your dreaming self and act as a reminder that the body you are currently occupying is not real.

What you need primarily is that type of memory which facilitates a clear picture of your self-construct. Maybe that doesn't require much hard data and autobiographical acuity in principle.

Well said!

Just at the side, not for comparison or anything - how about simple maths or something like this, did somebody try, aiming at more concentration and cognitive boost for example?

This is a good idea. It's especially fun to try to solve math problems when access ot memory is absent, because the solutions can be most amusing! I'm not sure if doing math can reconnect you with memory, but it would do no harm.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Just an observation about awareness and memory. In the sense of Eastern contemplative practice, isn't memory and how the subconscious manipulates it at the heart of many of the distractions that diminish awareness, and meditative practice trains one to recognize while neither judging, rejecting or clinging?

Maybe I'm just looking at this from the wrong perspective or not comprehending the usage of the two terms for the purpose of lucid dreaming?

It's a good thing that we're doing LD'ing here, and not eastern contemplation then!

Seriously, though: in meditation you are fully awake and possess all your faculties, including a connection with memory. So, since you are often seeking a unique "Here & Now" moment during meditation, memory can indeed be a distraction. But we're talking about LD'ing here, which is much different conscious event.

In a dream, which is a decidedly "Here & Now" event by its nature, including memory in your experience serves not as a distraction but an aid to unify your entire Self -- something they actually do pursue in meditational practices, BTW.

Originally Posted by TheUncanny

In retrospect, perhaps the term "waking awareness" is a bit of an entendre. A more accurate term would be my "waking mentality", or the manner in which I think while in waking life. Part of this mentality is logic and awareness, such as recognizing when I'm in a dream, and that dreams are illusions not bound by physical laws. However, another part of this mentality consists of conditioned preconceptions about the fundamental nature of reality, and these deeply engrained constructs are not always receptive to the logic/awareness you try to impose while in a lucid dream.

But again, these same preconceptions will operate in a different manner when they are filtered through the knowledge that this dream is really just you, and exists absent any physical laws -- and this knowledge is only fully appreciated when access to memory is part of your consciousness formula; when your entire Self is present in the dream. I guess what would happen is you would shed your "waking mentality" for a "self-aware dreaming mentality" once memory is included in the mix, because you will know that those conditioned preconceptions are irrelevant in a dream.

Personally speaking, I've had far more LDs where I've felt "limited" in some way than those where I've felt completely unbound by limitations.

As have I. But does having lots of dreams with limitations really mean that being limited (perhaps by preconceptions) is the way it is supposed to be? Or maybe reaching a level of lucidity which includes waking-life self-awareness and waking-life memory, a state that dismisses any limits, is simply a rare event? I'd go with the latter, think.

And because most of my LDs have been WILDs, I feel confident in saying that this wasn't the result of not understanding the circumstances. But despite knowing without a doubt that I was dreaming, and despite knowing that dreams were not real, I often felt like I was swimming against an invisible current that insisted things behaved a certain way. Sometimes my will would trump this current, sometimes it wouldn't, but rarely has that current ever not been present to some degree in my dreams. I suppose it's my subconscious.

A difficult side-effect of WILD is that you assume, especially intellectually, that you have entered a dream with your entire waking-life Self intact. I do not believe this is true: your regular functions of sleep are robbing you of bits of Self every moment of the way, the biggest bit being memory. So yes, you are confident of your circumstances, and well aware that you are dreaming, but this awareness is being done without memory, almost a case where you are simply telling yourself this is a dream without innate confirmation. So those preconceptions and their requisite limits can indeed be present. That you were able to occasionally trump them probably indicates those rare events when, like I mentioned above, your entire Self is indeed present in the dream.

[Sorry about all the separate posts, guys & mods; I hadn't planned it that way!]

Originally Posted by Sageous

In a dream, which is a decidedly "Here & Now" event by its nature, including memory in your experience serves not as a distraction but an aid to unify your entire Self -- something they actually do pursue in meditational practices, BTW.

I think this is what I'm trying to wrap my brain around. I think I understand your perspective about the benefit of having some access to waking memory during an LD. How else does one make the distinction between the two realities and understand which reality one is experiencing? Without some degree of access it wouldn't seem to be possible to have any lucidity. However would too much access be a detriment to the here and now of the dream's reality? That is, too much knowledge of what's possible and not possible make it that much harder to manifest and realize the impossible?

In all honesty never having been lucid in a dream I can't fathom the subtleties and implications. It's walking in two realities simultaneously, which is not an easy concept to grasp without direct experience.

I think you might have answered this in part in your above reply to TheUncanny. I have to give it some thought and store it away for future reference.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Too much knowledge of what's possible and not possible make it that much harder to manifest and realize the impossible?

Maybe that is where you are mistaken. Just the same way we always are conscious, in our awake and dreaming lives and that we can have higher or lower awareness, we also always have some access to stored knowledge (or that's my theory) and you can have a clearer or foggier access to your stored knowledge. In a dream, you will have access to what you can and can't do. You know you can open a door but that you can't fly. Accessing all your knowledge/memory, you realize that you are in a dream and acquire the knowledge that there is nothing that you can't do.

So, no, you do not have "too much knowledge of what's possible and not possible" because you find out that you are dreaming, and that there are thus no limits. What Sageous talks about will not cause you to remember the laws of physics. You already remember them in dreams.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

It's walking in two realities simultaneously, which is not an easy concept to grasp without direct experience.

Have you ever walked in a park, while thinking of a conversation you had earlier? Have you ever been in an exam room, remembering an equation you wrote multiple times?

Then, yes, you do have had many direct experiences of this, but I wouldn't describe it as walking in two realities simultaneously. Anyways, Sageous is not talking about stopping your dream to visit memories of your highschool, of your passed away grandmother and your trip to Disney Land. He's simply talking about "reactivating" the part of the brain that is normally active when awake that gives us access to all things that we know, and that make us us, that allow us to use logic, to analyze the context in which we find ourselves, to see past illusions, to see past the present moment, to see the present moment for what it is...etc.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I have to give it some thought and store it away for future reference.

.

Originally Posted by StephL

What you need primarily is that type of memory which facilitates a clear picture of your self-construct. Maybe that doesn't require much hard data and autobiographical acuity in principle, like Sivason suggests.

Might staying in a bit of a dreamy state of mind be even beneficial - could one actually wake up from too much assimilation of one's waking mindset? Do you think so maybe, Sivason*, or why not chime in with Sageous and say the more awareness of the details of one's current real life context the better?
It seems dream-control potentially suffers from it and several people wake up in the process. I need to experiment for myself, but expect it to do me good, not saying you would suggest the opposite of course, I do understand that.

Well, Sageous did say "well said" regarding your point about it not requiring much hard data, as do I.

I got a little confused as far as Sageous commenting on recalling true and current data, and in other places saying episodic memory was not the point. We all write here for fun and sharing, and we all sometimes start up an intellectual path only to back up and try to explain ourselves in a way that may seem contradictory. Had he been composing a paper which could be edited before release, no confliction would appear (and there may have been none here, I just got a little confused between posts).

What I am saying is that I think we are on the same page as far as the understanding of a sleeping body being far more important than details.




Let's go back to what I say here,

Originally Posted by sivason

This is a mildly advanced improvement on the lucid dreaming thing, not a requirement for general lucidity.

Think about the Matrix movie. You had all the humans inserted into the matrix able to use some powers (general lucidity, as many know it), and at some point Neo "understood" the nature of the matrix, and everything changed. That is why this is important.

I find this to be mildly advanced, which explains why there is a risk of waking.

I DID WAKE myself at least a dozen times learning to do this correctly, but in a lifetime of dreaming, it was a small sacrifice.

I am convinced that this brings more cognition and more dream control, here is an example of the control I am referring to (an excerpt from my DJ entry, http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/siva...4076/#comments):

" I decided that ignoring this was not going to help, so I turned around. There stood a gang type person and he pulled out what looked like a 9 mm handgun and pointed it at my face. I guess my dream is insisting I pay attention, but I do not get concerned, this is all virtual reality after all. I take a couple steps towards him, and he unloads the entire clip into my face at near point blank range!

I do not respond and while it seems pretty real I just picture the bullets bouncing off. They do not even bounce off, they more reflect off like light on a mirror. The bullets reflect off in random directions and I reach the gangster. I reach out and crush his head (no gore, it just vaporizes.) "



I do not think it is important to maintain a dreamlike disconnection; I feel it is important to do exactly what Sageous is teaching you here. However, it is somewhat advanced and likely will cause some of you to wake a few times before you get it. If every LD is still precious, maybe you are not ready to move forward on this path. If you are looking at this as a long haul and can deal with sacrificing up to a dozen LDs learning this you will be richly rewarded.

Originally Posted by sivason

I got a little confused as far as Sageous commenting on recalling true and current data, and in other places saying episodic memory was not the point. We all write here for fun and sharing, and we all sometimes start up an intellectual path only to back up and try to explain ourselves in a way that may seem contradictory. Had he been composing a paper which could be edited before release, no confliction would appear (and there may have been none here, I just got a little confused between posts).

What I am saying is that I think we are on the same page as far as the understanding of a sleeping body being far more important than details.

I wouldn't be me if I didn't contradict myself now and then!

Though I agree we're all on the same page, at least until I come up with some new contradictory thought, this seemed important enough to mention:

I don't consider thinking of your sleeping body as retrieving an episodic memory, or even retrieving a memory at all. Yes, your sleeping body represents "true and current data," and in a sense you are creating an episodic memory simply by considering it, but at the moment of doing so you are not recalling it but confirming something that is going on right now, in reality. That doesn't seem contadictory to me... but then it might only make sense inside my addled head, I suppose!

Originally Posted by Sageous

But again, these same preconceptions will operate in a different manner when they are filtered through the knowledge that this dream is really just you, and exists absent any physical laws -- and this knowledge is only fully appreciated when access to memory is part of your consciousness formula; when your entire Self is present in the dream. I guess what would happen is you would shed your "waking mentality" for a "self-aware dreaming mentality" once memory is included in the mix, because you will know that those conditioned preconceptions are irrelevant in a dream.

A difficult side-effect of WILD is that you assume, especially intellectually, that you have entered a dream with your entire waking-life Self intact. I do not believe this is true: your regular functions of sleep are robbing you of bits of Self every moment of the way, the biggest bit being memory. So yes, you are confident of your circumstances, and well aware that you are dreaming, but this awareness is being done without memory, almost a case where you are simply telling yourself this is a dream without innate confirmation. So those preconceptions and their requisite limits can indeed be present. That you were able to occasionally trump them probably indicates those rare events when, like I mentioned above, your entire Self is indeed present in the dream.

This makes sense. Perhaps the transition from wakefulness to dreaming is comparable to the transition from sobriety to drunkenness; a gradual decline in mental faculties that can leave one with an false impression of how cognizant they actually (fun fact: I'm drunk right now ). That being said, part of me still wonders where these waking preconceptions exist in the mind. The higher-level functions that we are discussing, such as logic and working memory, are all executive functions of the prefrontal cortex. But, I suspect that these preconceptions may exist in a lower and less accessible part of the brain. For example, when in a lucid dream, do you have to actively reason that matter is solid in order to walk on the ground or open doors? Of course not, that is being enforced by something "outside" of those executive functions. I think this is why logic/reason is sometimes not enough to have complete control over a dream.

But this is just me speculating out loud. I'm going to make it a point to access my waking memory at the beginning of every WILD and see what effect is has, not only on my dream control, but also on dream recall. I think it may help in that area as well.

Originally Posted by TheUncanny

But, I suspect that these preconceptions may exist in a lower and less accessible part of the brain. For example, when in a lucid dream, do you have to actively reason that matter is solid in order to walk on the ground or open doors? Of course not, that is being enforced by something "outside" of those executive functions. I think this is why logic/reason is sometimes not enough to have complete control over a dream.

You are right. Logic and reason, and full waking awareness do not grant any control over the dream. Dream control takes training because you still need to figure out how to influence the virtual reality effectively, and must over come ingrained reactions and expectations. However, a true awareness of the fact that this is entirely a virtual world inside your sleeping brain is perhaps prerequisite to high level control, such as teleportation and such advanced skills.

Well while y'all are hammering out the details and going back and forth over the meaning of the OP theory, I've been busy attempting to put it into practice, and have managed to successfully repeat it for the 2nd time in a LD!

I just woke from a late morning lucid in my childhood home where I again, once already lucid (and the trigger for lucidity was memory, BTW, that there really wasn't a door at the top of the stairs), affirmed that my body is asleep in bed out there in the waking world, and here I am experiencing a fantasy taking place entirely in my mind. I went through this I think two times. Interestingly enough, I couldn't then remember any current TOTM, but I have not been thinking of TOTM recently in waking life, either. I had an echo of a thought "careful, don't want to think too much of the actual body!" but the dream didn't feel unstable or at risk of collapse. I noticed visuals became poor at one point and I "took off the blurring glasses" which worked perfectly. Entered an adjoining room that was well-lit and the scene became amazingly bright and "ultra HD" resolution. Caveman mode eventually did take over, and it was somewhat amusing that DCs were not cooperative, but I did in the end manage to "connect" and it was very nice for a brief time, then I woke up.

I've been trying also to build this expectation/intention that "I bring waking memory into the dream state" as well as "I bring dreaming memories in to the waking state."

I had a number of late morning falling-back-to-sleep instances where I used a mantra: "remember…I'm dreaming…"

This seemed to have manifested in earlier non-lucid dreams where 1) I realized I couldn't remember anything that had happened earlier, but my subconscious quickly and sneakily turned this into a plot point, about how "with this amnesia, we [my DC girlfriend with whom there was a conflict] could have a fresh start in our relationship". 2) I was walking by the street of my childhood home in another non-lucid, and realized this in the dream and pointed out my home to my DC compadres in passing. Normally in non-lucids I do not acknowledge the location, I just realize it later from visual memory after waking up. (I proceeded to continue walking through the neighborhood, noting the increasingly extreme transformations that had occurred, to the point where the area had become an "acid-trip" level of weird shapes (mushroom statues, scarab temples) and coloring, a real fairy-tale environment, it was astonishing.

Loved that post. SO MUCH!

@ Occipitalred - I can wrap my mind around that! This discussion is quite a bit beyond my current waypoint on this journey, but that never stops me from exploring a concept. The only truly stupid question is the question unasked, and right now I'm brimming with questions. I'm the proverbial kid in a candy store and absolutely intrigued by all this!

Originally Posted by Sageous

I don't consider thinking of your sleeping body as retrieving an episodic memory, or even retrieving a memory at all. Yes, your sleeping body represents "true and current data," and in a sense you are creating an episodic memory simply by considering it, but at the moment of doing so you are not recalling it but confirming something that is going on right now, in reality. That doesn't seem contadictory to me... but then it might only make sense inside my addled head, I suppose!

So, this method of “activating” access to memory in a LD doesn't actually involve trying to recall/access a memory at all—i.e., the point isn't to try to access memory in order to “turn access on”. Did I understand that correctly? That, I think, may be where some of my own initial confusion stemmed from.

^^ Yes, I think you understand it correctly, Travis. Re-accessing memory is not about finding specific memories, but doing an action that brings memory back into the fold of your awareness. And that access seems to work best when you think about something that is not a stored memory (like where your sleeping body is), but that requires memory to properly understand what it is you are thinking about; so when memory adds context by reminding you about the real nature of your sleeping body & bedroom, access is established.

If you haven't yet, you might read RFryingMan's excellent functional example of what I'm talking about. Speaking of that:

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Well while y'all are hammering out the details and going back and forth over the meaning of the OP theory, I've been busy attempting to put it into practice, and have managed to successfully repeat it for the 2nd time in a LD!

Excellent work, FryingMan, and thanks for so clearly sharing!

Sounds good, Sageous. FryingMan is doing the same sorts of things I intend to work with. Hopefully with this combined with the self-awareness exercises, RCs, and practice learning how to get the conscious parts of my brain to speak the right language to the dreaming aspects of it, it'll simply be a matter of time.

I'm thinking about trying to make the sleeping body/current state reminder be kind of a meditation exercise during an LD, and just try to stay focused on it throughout the dream. That way if I find my thoughts thinking of the dream ending or straying somewhere else, I could just shift my focus back to this as I continue what I was doing.

I've stopped incorporating these "what was I doing earlier" questions in my RCs some time ago, because I wanted my RCs to be more frequent yet shorter, but I'll start doing this memory check again.
Although, once in a non-lucid dream I needed to find a backpack or something like that, which I knew I had earlier, and I tried to remember, in the dream, what have I done with it earlier. This resulted in my brain making up a false memory on the spot of where I placed the object, even though that never actually happened. Isn't it likely that our minds will create false memories like this during a dream and RCing with this memory check?

Originally Posted by Travis E.

I'm thinking about trying to make the sleeping body/current state reminder be kind of a meditation exercise during an LD, and just try to stay focused on it throughout the dream. That way if I find my thoughts thinking of the dream ending or straying somewhere else, I could just shift my focus back to this as I continue what I was doing.

That' sounds like a good idea; I hope you'll let us know how it goes, should you try it. However:

I suggest though that you try not to stay too focused on it; keep it as a sort of back-of-the-mind affirmation rather than something that feels very important during the dream. Considering your sleeping body is one thing, but maintaining a strong focus on your waking-life condition could work against you.

Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

I've stopped incorporating these "what was I doing earlier" questions in my RCs some time ago, because I wanted my RCs to be more frequent yet shorter, but I'll start doing this memory check again.

I would not recommend asking any questions other than "Is this a dream?" during your RC's, Mimi.

I know I am an outlier on this, but RC's are meant to be simple, quick, state tests that confirm that you are in reality. Adding stuff to them only complicates the procedure, and may muddle their results... I do of course think it is a good idea to do RRC's, where those questions are asked, or other popular exercises (i.e., imagining your world is a dream) as well, but definitely not at the same time as a RC.

So if you're going to ask (and consider carefully) those three questions -- where am I? where was I? where will I be? -- I suggest that you do so in a separate moment than the RC. The purposes of RC's and RRC's are very different from each other, so combining them might be problematic.

Also:

Although, once in a non-lucid dream I needed to find a backpack or something like that, which I knew I had earlier, and I tried to remember, in the dream, what have I done with it earlier. This resulted in my brain making up a false memory on the spot of where I placed the object, even though that never actually happened. Isn't it likely that our minds will create false memories like this during a dream and RCing with this memory check?

Yes. It is more than possible, during a NLD.

When you are not lucid your unconscious is in the business of creating false memories. So if a RRC is done when not lucid, a false memory that "properly" answers your questions for you is very likely -- just as a false positive is likely when a RC is done during a NLD. I am personally convinced that RC's and RRC's are not tools to induce lucidity, but tools to confirm or enhance lucidity, to be used after you sense that you are dreaming. I'm probably once again an outlier with this opinion, but I have a strong feeling it is correct.


All that said, I am reminded that RRC's are an excellent tool for firming up your grip on memory, after you have already laid hands on it by thinking about your sleeping body. If you are unfamiliar with what a RRC is, I think I defined it here, and answered about a hundred questions about it in my DVA WILD class's Q&A thread, if you are willing to browse.

Sageous, sorry, I'm a bit confused.. You say that I should only ask the question "is this a dream?" and do memory checks with questions like "where am I, where was I" etc at separate moments, not to combine these with RCs. But in the OP you said

For instance, when practicing reality checks during waking life (and everyone should be doing that!), don’t just confirm that the clock didn’t change, or that your hand still has five fingers, but, when you're done checking your state, take another moment to remember exactly what you were doing say, fifteen minutes earlier.

Wat Maybe I'm confused cause it's late and I need to go to bed but it sounds contradictory to me right now..

I'll soon be corrected if I'm wrong, but if I remember what was said in the past correctly, it's okay to perform a RC just before or after the RRC, just not both at the exact same instant. Otherwise, people like me who like to attempt to multitask everything (and usually fail, of course) would be tempted to do that just to save a couple of seconds.

^^ You are correct, Travis, and well said.

Just to clarify (mostly because I already wrote it):

Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

Sageous, sorry, I'm a bit confused.. You say that I should only ask the question "is this a dream?" and do memory checks with questions like "where am I, where was I" etc at separate moments, not to combine these with RCs. But in the OP you said:

For instance, when practicing reality checks during waking life (and everyone should be doing that!), don’t just confirm that the clock didn’t change, or that your hand still has five fingers, but, when you're done checking your state, take another moment to remember exactly what you were doing say, fifteen minutes earlier.

Wat Maybe I'm confused cause it's late and I need to go to bed but it sounds contradictory to me right now..

I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything different, Mimi.

Note that I said in the OP to do the other stuff "when you're done checking your state," as you bolded above. I am saying that it is not a good idea to include all that questioning during your RC, but it is a fine idea to do the additional questioning once your RC is done, or before you do a RC.

In other words, sure, do all that stuff in the same time-frame, but do your RC as a unique, separate operation that has nothing to do with the questions. So, when you do a RC, all you should be doing at that moment is whatever state test you have chosen (i.e., checking and re-checking a clock, finger thru palm, etc) and wondering if you might be dreaming, so that you can have a simple and quick confirmation that you are awake or dreaming.

I hope that made sense; let me know if it didn't...

Originally Posted by Sageous

I am personally convinced that RC's and RRC's are not tools to induce lucidity

really? then what the hell we should do in our DILD practices? so i am doing everything wrong.

i know it is off-topic but if you show me a good link to explain what i am wrong in, then i will thank you so much.