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    Thread: Lucid Dreaming Book Club (May-June)

    1. #1
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      Lucid Dreaming Book Club (May-June)

      Dreamgates: An Explorer's Guide to the Worlds of Soul, Imagination, and Life Beyond Death by Robert Moss



      I found these sources online if you need help accessing the book:


      Ebook:
      Amazon

      Audiobook:

      Audible

      I also recommend checking the catalog of your local library. There's a good chance you could find it on CD / Mp3 player or just the physical copy.

      Happy reading!
      Occipitalred, ZAD, zelcrow and 1 others like this.
      Check out the Lucid Dreaming Book Club: May-June
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      I got my copy!

      Looking at the name of the chapters, I think I will not survive if I go into this with my secular/skeptical lenses. I do crave a book on dreaming that is both primordially spiritual and lets go of the need to make statements about metaphysical realities that we actually don't know... For example, I can see this book will talk about the afterlife, which none of us can know about but oh well... To have fun with this book, I will grab my tarot cards and embrace the spiritual aesthetic, maybe light some candles... and just have fun with it. Something I'm looking forward to do with Carlos' book eventually too.

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      Unfortunately I still haven't managed to gain access to a copy for the last book from the club, hopefully at some point I will, but I'll be having this book in-hand some time soon too as I managed to find a cheap copy for this.

      Also curious, how would you define "primordially spiritual"?
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      Singled out from some of my favourite quotes from Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri: "Risks of [Planet] flowering: considerable. But rewards of godhood: who can measure? - Usurper Judaa'Maar: Courage: to question."

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      Quote Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness View Post
      Unfortunately I still haven't managed to gain access to a copy for the last book from the club, hopefully at some point I will, but I'll be having this book in-hand some time soon too as I managed to find a cheap copy for this.

      Also curious, how would you define "primordially spiritual"?
      I meant, that focuses on the spiritual aspect of dreaming, that is, the subjective experience of it, rather than the objective science of it.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      I got my copy!

      Looking at the name of the chapters, I think I will not survive if I go into this with my secular/skeptical lenses. I do crave a book on dreaming that is both primordially spiritual and lets go of the need to make statements about metaphysical realities that we actually don't know... For example, I can see this book will talk about the afterlife, which none of us can know about but oh well... To have fun with this book, I will grab my tarot cards and embrace the spiritual aesthetic, maybe light some candles... and just have fun with it. Something I'm looking forward to do with Carlos' book eventually too.
      This is exactly how I approach all of Robert Moss' books that I have read. Understand he started off as a fiction writer, who later learned his passion was writing about lucid dreaming. He can be a bit dramatic, and can be a really good storyteller. But not a scientist, for sure.

      Where this book shines is with its great ideas for lucid journeying - and shamanic drumming embedded in the audiobook.
      Check out the Lucid Dreaming Book Club: May-June
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      Thanks for the heads up, I prepared myself some shamanic drum music!
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      I've completed the first chapter and have now paused somewhere in the twilight exercises, to give myself the time to play along.

      With the shamanic drum music and Robert Moss' prose in my field of awareness, I was not restrained from but in fact aided in navigating the - twilight zone - in real time. Mostly, I have been setting up a new Mental Temple with spaces for relaxation, meditation, breathing, tai chi, and cleansing, with a great view on a great valley flanked with scenic mountains and luscious forest of deep green hues. Particularly, I enjoy the hot springs. They were the seed for this Mental Temple, a memory from hot springs up high in the snowy Pyrenees. Evidently, the temple is very unlike that place, but I like meshing mental temples with multiple memories that ground them in my lived experience, which help blur the line between visualization and remembering.

      Additionally, I have prepared a space for some guides, in particular, my cow guide. Also, since I manifested this place as a waiting room, kind of a threshold to dreams or the no-man's land in between wakefulness and dreams, as suggested by Moss, there is also a waiting room where I can just wait and read magazines.

      As advised by Robert Moss, I have assigned a home for my inner sceptic, her own library where she may indulge in her intellectual caprices. When I come to visit her, she walks down a grand staircase, symbolically humbling herself. Unfortunately, I've noticed the pragmatic worth of my intellect is impressively low. I don't use it much at work in my contribution to society, where I expected most to use it. In all honesty, "intelligence" is mostly just a hobby. I love to read and play with ideas, watch video essays on different topics, read critics of such and such. Leisure. On breaks, I have begun scrolling on reddit, rarely posting a comment, to participate. I've noticed, where the sharing of opinions is concerned, it is mostly just a platform to feel intellectual. Any view you may hold, someone will have an argument against it. There is not much room for a multifaceted and fleshed out conversation. People are just happy feeling intelligent by expressing their opinion based on - logic - . It feels good... Unless someone else is getting a high on slightly different idea. Anyway, even if it were a platform for the highest quality of discourse, it would remain leisure, and largely inconsequential. Not to be dismissive, it's just that observing the big picture, my inner sceptic is definitely of great importance to me, but can definitely take a step back and benefit from some humility. The sense of urgency that accompanies it is rather useless in the scope of my existence.

      Still guided by Robert Moss, I have manifested a gate to travel, a large kaleidoscope, which to me represents the reflective mosaic of dreams. Each association is a tool for travel. Each reflection and multiplication a portal to the next content of awareness. I was emboldened to choose a kaleidoscope as a gate by Moss' suggestion to use a mandala.

      Last night, I went to bed, went through the breathing, muscle relaxation, and light exercises until my body felt disconnected. I made my way through the memories of the day and then the memories of the last night's dreams. I visited my intentions for the upcoming dreams. Whereas I would generally hang around in my memory temple or my memories, I was now ready for Moss' exercise: to scan my psychic field.

      Luckily, I am keeping my inner psychic in her library because the chorus of Moss' credo is that there is psychic information accessible via no physical intermediary. To invoke this sense, I focused on meditation's teaching that the contents of my awareness come and go unprompted. Whereas this does not necessarily mean to me that these contents don't belong to my corporeal form, I definitely do feel that I do not consciously manifest them. I can thus feel the duality between my consciousness and its contents. While the imagery that appears in the twilight zone is somewhat random in nature, I like to think of a dice. Whether it falls on a 6 or a 3 is up to chance but it's not so completely random because those numbers were etched into the dice in the first place. In that sense, whichever face the dice of my consciousness falls on, however random it may seem, it's something that's etched there. It is a reflection of something. It's responding to something. It's alive and real. Connected and changing.

      So this was my mindset as I began scanning the psychic field. Immediately, I saw an unfamiliar ceremonial mask. I could feel it looking at me, from up close way inside my personal bubble. For a moment, I imagined it had always been there looking at me from so close and I only just now noticed it. That felt a bit surreal but I simply continued observing it without judgement and after a bit I decided to do as Moss instructed and did some light work to cleanse the room.

      Tonight, I will go at it again, perhaps scanning and also adding scouting. I should finish Chapter 2 this week and mostly play in the Twilight zone.
      Last edited by Occipitalred; 05-10-2021 at 06:47 AM.

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      Wow, that's super cool, Occipitalred. It sounds like you're having quite the adventure, and I enjoy reading about it.
      Check out the Lucid Dreaming Book Club: May-June
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      I only got my copy today (with heavy amounts of underlines on many pages) as it came from pretty far. I will be starting to read it later when I get a chance.
      Singled out from some of my favourite quotes from Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri: "Risks of [Planet] flowering: considerable. But rewards of godhood: who can measure? - Usurper Judaa'Maar: Courage: to question."

    10. #10
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      Based on the descriptions above, this sounds like the complete opposite of what I normally read when it comes to lucid dreaming. I love that! I think I'll pick up the audiobook and have a listen even though I'm a bit late to the game. Thanks for the interesting suggestion Moonage!
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      I still haven't read more so I can continue practicing the breathing, muscle relaxation, light visualization exercise, and then scan the psychic field. I want to do the scanning exercise a few times before I 'scout' and 'dialogue' and then move on to the next chapter.

      Here's an attempt at scanning the psychic field:



      I set myself up in the twilight zone. I see a horse's eye. I lean in to that image. I see only the horse as if I'm riding it. The images of horse eye and riding alternate a bit. I remember my goal: I'm looking for psychic objects. All I see is the horse. Especially, the eye. Since eyes are often the first thing I see closing my eyes, I wait for something else. Meanwhile, I continue watching the horse. It has a donkey’s facial features and color. It has a unicorn’s horn in the shape and texture of a corn candy. The horn grows longer and sparkles. Eventually, it enters and walks across my field of vision and I notice a blanket on it’s back. It is brown and, thick, prickly and humble. It is completely unfamiliar to me. I grab it off the donkey’s back satisfied. This is my psychic object. I return to my mental temple and place the blanket on a pedestal outside. I do this to symbolize that I am not taking ownership of this psychic object. I wonder what could be my next goal of what to do with the psychic object. I think Moss would like me to do a light ritual with it so I go and do that. I let the light flow through me for a bit and then through the blanket. I watch it glow.

      Later that day, I was still thinking about it as I was showering. I was thinking about the brown blanket and the horse. I get out to get dried off and grab my... brown towel. And then it strikes me that the image on the towel is a horse. I never paid much attention to the towel I was using at the moment and I cycle through lots of different towels so it definitely was a fun coincidence.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      ILater that day, I was still thinking about it as I was showering. I was thinking about the brown blanket and the horse. I get out to get dried off and grab my... brown towel. And then it strikes me that the image on the towel is a horse. I never paid much attention to the towel I was using at the moment and I cycle through lots of different towels so it definitely was a fun coincidence.
      I hope you did a reality check!!
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      I've read about a fifth of this so far, mixed feelings. Still, want to share a few thoughts.

      I have to admit this type of read is always difficult for me, as it was with Sageous' book from the other recent book club period. I think it's probably because I have always gravitated towards reading very technical or encyclopaedic books (the type of books I read cover-to-cover in a couple of days), it's just difficult for me to try and not take things at face value in a book.

      Somehow if this were a fantasy or crime novel I wouldn't have an issue with immersing myself in that novel's world/context. When it's a book that has a direct link to day-to-day life and in this case relates directly to the author's life experience, I find that it reads (to me) as a bit too authoritative. I am not trying to dismiss the author's experience, I just don't personally align with a lot of it.

      Still, so far I have managed to remind myself that I don't need to take everything literally and that if I take things only at face value I'll be left with a pretty narrow and pointless view on what I'm reading. There's stuff I simply don't believe in which is being mentioned in the book, though if I take a moment to think "how could I re-read this from my own perspective, based on what I do know?", I do get further with not dismissing something entirely and get to recontextualise it for myself. I think it's probably a case of "we're talking about the same thing but in a different way", and I'm still learning to adjust myself to not read something exactly for what it is.

      This is especially interesting though because my copy is SO heavily underlined, almost every page has several sentences underlined by the previous owner of the book. It really makes me think about how someone else was reading this, what parts they were focusing on, that I'm not. The previous owner definitely had a much stronger interest in specific parts of what is said than I do.

      What I did really like so far was the "Stepping into a picture" exercise, which sadly I haven't found a quiet opportunity for yet (I think I will in the next two days) because I recently made a painting that has it's own embedded frame as part of it. It will be a perfect candidate for me to try this exercise on. Generally I do really like these bits in the book so far that are essentially about what I consider "visualisation", even if they're called something else here.
      Singled out from some of my favourite quotes from Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri: "Risks of [Planet] flowering: considerable. But rewards of godhood: who can measure? - Usurper Judaa'Maar: Courage: to question."

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      I'm there with you but I think even I write my opinions as if they were authoritative so I find it difficult to hope we can one day all share our thoughts like showing pieces of art we've made. That's why I did a lot of groundwork to be receptive to this book, haha. I still haven't progressed. I've had a lot to think about dreams and ideas recently to really take the time to visualize psychic scans and conversations with otherly paras. But soon.

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      My take on Robert Moss is this: really great ideas for lucid dreaming, too much significance on dreams being more than they are. Taking them literally, rather than metaphorically. Personally, I take a more Jungian view, however, I still like his books.
      Check out the Lucid Dreaming Book Club: May-June
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      I've been practicing the twilight exercises, often informally. I'm not sure I distinguish the difference between what I call lucid daydreaming, immersive daydreaming, visualization and the twilight zone. While this is an activity I already thoroughly enjoy, Moss invites me to focus on the receptive element of visualization. To clarify, visualization sounds very active: "I choose to visualize an apple and eat it. I bring about that experience in my mind". But I can also manifest a sense of receptivity, to reach out to my "creative source" if you will, as Moss would say, and let my mind take the reins, only helping to move along by further feeling receptive, not trying to grasp so strongly to anything firmly, and allowing for movement. As I read Moss with the accompaniment of throat chanting and drums and I play in the twilight zone, I am only vaguely connected to the physical world via the words I read from his pdf file. I haven't taken the time to write down every exercise but here's my attempt at the "stepping into a picture" with the intent to "speak with spirits":

      While still reading and listening to the drums and throat chants, I choose to visit a Tarot card. He suggested a Trump card but it's a Minor Arcana that comes to mind. I can clearly picture the Queen of Swords. While there are many Tarot cards that I have a deeper connection with, this is not such a one. Swords represent thoughts and the Queen represents the Highest feminine wisdom of her suit. So for example, the King of Swords may represent truth while the Queen of Swords may represent a sharpness of mind and wit. Both are intellectual archetypes, but the King is also associated with authority and power whereas the Queen is associated with complexity and cunningness. One of the reasons I generally don't connect with the Queen of swords is that she is also associated with cold-heartedness, perhaps merely because the sword suit is associated with cognition and not emotions.

      Anyway, so I picture the Queen of Swords as in the Rider Waite deck. She is sitting on her throne, facing right, holding a sword, and wearing a crown of yellow butterflies. As I enter the picture, I imagine my body in that same art style. Somehow, I imagined her throne to be in the middle of an ocean, which is more where I imagine the Queen of Cups' throne to be. Regardless, I just wade in the waves, barely touching the steps underneath me that climb to her throne. I visualize her turning toward me but she remains mute. I introduce myself. Nothing. I try to visualize her say something without choosing the words for her. She says "So you are" but not so smoothly. It echoes. She is still just staring stiffly from her throne (for my lack of creativity, and not because she is uncomfortable). I become intimate with her. My corporate form barely existent, I snake around her and my cheek presses to her cheek, facing in the same direction as her. Letting the daydream become more vibrant, less stiff. More personal. I tell her I don't connect with her brand of cold-hearted intellectualism. She becomes somewhat more responsive, putting her sword to our necks, and me holding my own in the way of hers. She reminds me of every time in my life where I was talking to people about my feelings and they, surprised by all my thinking, claimed that I was a very analytical person. Those memories quickly alternated in my mind. Times where I discussed my feelings and my complexity only for people to be amazed at how "analytical" I was. I've always responded to this by being surprised and feeling misunderstood. I always understand that claim to make me out to be cold-hearted and thought focused whereas what I am usually doing is trying to express in words my very vibrant emotional life. I realized I have judged her in the way that I perceived others judged me. People in my life strongly think I am the Queen of swords. Maybe they don't even judge me the way I judged her. Maybe they don't think my complex analysis of my feelings also means I am not emotional. Because I am emotional. And I never asked if that's what they meant. Anyway, this all happens quite quickly because I am still slowly reading Moss, and by then, the Queen and I are fencing, floating/flying above her throne, wearing puffy yellow butterfly dresses. And we're just playing by then, because I realize I like her quite a lot. I reflect then, that she is not cold-hearted intellect. She is mindfulness (in a reflective sense). And she agrees.

      I find it funny that in the Task of the Year, my Superhero persona is Dimwit and in this twilight exercise, was made to realize that I connect a lot with the Queen of Sword who could also be called Quickwit. After all, lucid dreaming is generally a mindful exercise. And as I have discussed in another thread, a great flaw of the superhero trope is their lack of mindfulness. Often responding to situations in the simplest of ways: using violence, and without much mindfulness for the source of the problem, which in the case of superheroes and crimes, is the structure of society and nature, and not individual villains and criminals. So, I think I will bring all of this reflection to my subsequent attempts at the TOTY.

      EDIT: I went and checked my Rider Waite Tarot deck box. I always leave one card faced up in the box at random with the intention to reflect on that card. I had forgotten but it was the Queen of Sword.
      Last edited by Occipitalred; 06-19-2021 at 11:37 PM.

    17. #17
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      Wow, how neat! Love the synchronicity with the card. It sounds like maybe this character is an aspect of your shadow? A part of you that needs validation, acceptance, and understanding.

      Really great work getting the unconscious to play with you.
      Check out the Lucid Dreaming Book Club: May-June
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      Occipitalred, I guess I was in need of reading this because until today I had actually been feeling somewhat unmotivated to continue reading the book. I enjoyed reading about this moment you had. I ended up going back quite a few pages and re-reading the parts I'd last been reading, some twenty odd pages or so. And I also ended up having a short and pretty casual moment myself while I was re-reading one of the exercises I'd already read before.

      My visual imagination had been pretty lacking for a few months now but has slowly been returning a bit, which is why I found this moment with the exercise to be quite enjoyable even though I really had no initial intent for it, since I'd been feeling a bit "blocked" lately. I still don't find myself very agreeable to some of the wording or certain things said but I feel more motivated to read than I was before, even so.



      On the point about lucid daydreaming, immersive daydreaming, visualisation and twilight zone... Personally, I think that these are all essentially the same or similar things and how you see one of these "things" probably depends on your own contextual use of language. In my view for example, meditation and prayer are nearly the same thing and are very close to the rest of ideas anyway. And what I've personally been calling "visualisation" for a while now is probably a bit like the "active imagination" mentioned in the other bookclub book we had recently, I forget the title of it now... In any case, all of this for me is more about going with the flow of whatever presents itself and making subtle, maybe non-verbal, suggestions/intents (like I would in lucid dreams) than to necessarily choose/demand for something to happen from a "normal" level of consciousness.
      Singled out from some of my favourite quotes from Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri: "Risks of [Planet] flowering: considerable. But rewards of godhood: who can measure? - Usurper Judaa'Maar: Courage: to question."

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