Thread: A THEORY: We're missing it! (you should read this)

I've been rather frustrated lately by my almost constant inability to lucid dream. Since pretty much the beginning of my attempts to intentionally lucid dream I actually noticed a decline in my ability to easily slip in and out of dreams, and now I am almost altogether unable to lucid dream on-demand. Couldn't I just go with DILD or MILD or one of those other induction techniques? Well, sure, and I have. And I've even discovered some of my own techniques along the way. And they really do work. But I've just realized something lately that makes me wonder if all these techniques are kind of missing the point.

The reason for this is not complicated...in fact, I discovered it by just going back to the basics to see what I was working with, instead of just trying to do ANOTHER technique. So I started with the question: what is a lucid dream, in the physical sense? I know what a lucid dream is in the definitive sense, but what does a lucid dream consist of in our real, physical world? And, more importantly, how can I activate this part of my existence every single night, without having to ruin my life during the day just so I can have a few minutes of excitement at night?

The answer: logic.

That's where lucid dreams consist: the logic portion of our brains; that part that shuts down during the night unless otherwise forcibly re-activated via external means (i.e. reality checks, for example).

But wait, there's more. It gets even simpler. If the logic portion of my brain is where lucid dreams are drawn from, and all I have to do in order to become lucid in a dream is to switch this part of my brain on one way or another...then do I really have to focus on dreams at all in order to go lucid? If I think logically in any way, shape, or form, I will know when I am dreaming and when I am not, as a natural side-effect.

Now, the question is, then, how can we cause ourselves to simply become more logical in our thinking to the point that we are habitually making logical observations about our environments without even making conscious effort to do so?

Discuss.

An example of our tendency to fail at logic, and perhaps an exercise to overcome it: Exercise Your Brains – Visual Logic Brain Teaser | SharpBrains

Another example, this time in video.

By the end, you'll know what I mean that this applies to dreams.

I'm not too sure about that theory. I have spent years thinking logically in every way, shape and form. For a living. But I am still searching for and creating tools for lucidity.

I always struggle to fall asleep when I work late at night. This is because my logic circuits are still running. And then my dreams tend to be just about logic or code or abstract things. Nothing tangible that you could act on.

Logic may be an important prerequisite, however, but there are still other missing variables.

Well, that depends really on how we define logic. Referring to coding, this is very complicated, it's a left-brain thing of course, but it involves very deep, complex thinking. When we're talking about dreams, or particularly lucid dreams, what we mean by logic is down to something very simple. It's the clearest, most certain path of thought from point A to point B. That's what we're after here.

Originally Posted by Supernova

Well, that depends really on how we define logic. Referring to coding, this is very complicated, it's a left-brain thing of course, but it involves very deep, complex thinking. When we're talking about dreams, or particularly lucid dreams, what we mean by logic is down to something very simple. It's the clearest, most certain path of thought from point A to point B. That's what we're after here.

An important point, and a good explanation, Supernova.

But what can we do to use that to our advantage in lucid dreaming? All the obvious applications seem to lead right back into the DILD/MILD/etc. thing...is there really no alternative?

If I understood things correctly, chemicals are released or something like that which completely prevents us from thinking logically inside our dreams. Does anyone know more about this?

It would be perfect if we found some kind of drug or food or vitamin that prevented that chemical from being released or synthesized.

Yes.Dopamine is released in dreams, psychotic episodes, and hallucinations.You can't stop the dopamine, and if you could, it would stop your dreams altogether because dopamine is what forces your brain to create false senses.

I think you are on to something big here.

This may seem crazy, but your description of the type of logic reminded me of something. Laughing appears to be the brain's response to a break in logic. Every good joke builds a clear and logical path but at the end something completely unpredictable / unexpected happens. So maybe reading jokes without laughing?

This is why WBTB is such an effective method. You stay up long enough to get your brain working logically again, but you stay up just short enough so you still feel tired.

Yeah! I've always wondered something along those lines!

Originally Posted by mikeac

This is why WBTB is such an effective method. You stay up long enough to get your brain working logically again, but you stay up just short enough so you still feel tired.

I wonder if doing some sort of brain teaser would increase it's effectiveness.

Or maybe...when writing down your dreams, point out all the logical fallacies. I really wonder what effect that would have.
I'm going to start doing that actually.

Nice topic. Inspired me to the idea of a very simple and effective RC.

I personally think it is awareness that we are missing, rather than logic, in our non-lucid dreams.
This lack of awareness is also the reason we are often unconscious during waking life; resulting in us putting an object down somewhere whilst being in a state of low awareness,
and then we cannot remember where we put it. For instance.
If we'd have enough awareness in a dream to begin with, we'd automatically be more focussed and likely to spot dreamsigns.
Daytime Logic is more the standard against which we measure experiences to determine if they are deamtime or daytime experiences. It is the mechanism/tool that awareness uses to recognise Dreamsigns and discriminate the Dreamstate from the Waking state.

The RC I just thought of is as follows:
Write a random sum on paper like: 3 X 5= ? and try to solve it.
No matter how easy it may be, if our Logic in dreams indeed is as screwed as it seems, this would be impossible to solve.
I guess you could do this 2 times a day or even more frequently you may end up doing it in your dreams too.
Every time you change the sum. It could be 7 - 4= ?, or 80:3=? or any sum really.
As long as it's random.

Just thought of another one.
In dreams we are often in one place and then, without going there, we're suddenly in a completely different place.
Asking yourself "How did I get Here?" often during the day may help it become a habbit in your dreams too. If it does then
in a dream we would most certainly have no idea of how we got where we are.

I like this theory. I will see if I can come up with any ideas.

Very smart to think of this!
Maybe we should do a series of tests on which works better, with reality checks vs. dream signs vs. theories, and why.
We should also come up with new ways to see how we can figure out if we are lucid. Out of all of the lucid dreams we have had, why did we know? How did we come about the fact we were dreaming? What made our mind dare to ask us if we were dreaming?
Something had to trigger it, maybe it's all in tricking our subconcious. I understand where you are coming from, since the logical part of our brain is turned off, and we use logic to find out if we are dreaming. Maybe the real question is, what triggers our mind into turning the logical part on? And if it doesn't do that, than how do we know we are actually dreaming? What is it that makes us know? It has to be something in the mind that sets it off.

Originally Posted by Lynn

What made our mind dare to ask us if we were dreaming?
.

you know, that is a really good question. i recently started to look into this and realised that all of my lucid dreams started with a thought. i don't know if this is the same for anyone else but i can't quite remember thinking anything in a no lucid dream. when i become lucid it's like waking up. its funny because whenever i become lucid its always a chain of thoughts that lead me to lucidity. thats why when i become lucid i never "need" a reality check to make sure. i just know. i feel like i'm rambling here, but i think that any sort of concious thought during a dream, would instantly make me lucid.

Ive got an app on my iPod - called Brain Trainer or something.. I might combine these logic exercises in my 20-30mins of being awake for my WBTB method - give it a few nights and see what happens in terms of becoming lucid and if amount of time increases!

Ah, I don't want to ruin it for you, but logic can be a problem too. For example, I'm very logical in dreams and am always thinking about the actions and the enviroment, but because of that too, my dreams are logical, so nothing out of the ordinary happens and most RCs won't work, not to mention there is always a fake memory to ruin the memory RC.

This is interesting. I have read in some WILD tutorials to focus on more logical thoughts when going to bed instead of "anxious" thoughts, like what happened during the day.

What I have been doing for WILDs is thinking up a calc problem in my head and trying to solve it without really thinking hard about it. If I think too hard I will picture it all out (ruining any imagery) and sometimes get frustrated. If I just kind of let the problem work itself out then for a while it won't really get anymore I will just kinda be like "math...." and then eventually it kind of solves itself without me trying to solve it. The way I think of this is that my subconcious takes over solving the math and helps lead to lucidity in dreams.

It might a completely made up explanation but.... it can work for some. Especially for people like me that very easily understand math. (I'm in calc 3 and am 15) So the part of my brain that does math will be more subconciously linked. As in when I learn math it instantly gets mapped out in my brain and I understand its logic perfectly and love doing proves for things.

So since this something that is deeply linked in to my subconcious and logic it works greatly for me to get me into a state of mind that connects the two.

Hi, I've been having the same problem. About 4 years ago, when I started lucid dreaming I used to have them almost every night, and it kept that way for almost a year. Then it started to dissapear, and now I can't even remember what I dreamed last night. I think now is because I am going through a very stressful moment, heartbroken, so that keeps my mind full all day, and I can't even sleep well. I just want to lucid dream again, but I guess right now is not possible. Anyway, I'll try some techniques, but it is very frustrating, because I can't remember better nights than those where I could do everything I wanted in my dreams.

I enjoy this post! Let me tell you something about logic. Most people think logic is simply thinking about things in a common sense sort of way. However, logic is sooo much more.

In order for your theory to work, one must question every moment of their existence. This is to say, asking questions about every operation experienced in waking life. Once you begin with a question, you can then employ logic and reason to deduce answers and such. This is the process, now here is the AWESOME PART.

There is a feeling you get when you begin to question and logic things. Isolate this feeling, and you have in your possession the exact feeling your brain gets when it says "wait a second here". That is the moment of realization you are hoping for is it not?

I'll tell you this then if you are still with me. Use this feeling in waking life often and meditate on it as if you are feeling that in the dream state. Once you remind yourself to feel that in a dream, presto! You have just inserted logic and reason into your dreams using a wonderful mnemonic device!

Personally I would advise against simply trying to question every little thing in life in order to do the same in your dream life. This leads to confusion, lack of focus, and dissociation from that which surrounds you. Ask the right questions, use the feeling.

Thanks for the post LITDream!

One very simple reality check I started doing is randomly pausing for a moment throughout the day to observe my surroundings in detail. A slow deep gaze around the room while silently questioning whether or not I'm dreaming. I'll do this 3 to 4 times every hour and a half roughly. Been doing this for about a week and haven't seen any results yet. However I have only had a few lucid dreams so far. I feel like I should be doing more reality checks though.

I like this theory. I shot a huge bird with my pellet rifle a while back and it got stuck in a tall tree in my backyard. So I was trying to get it down, but couldn't and I didn't want the neighbors to see it, so I decided to get up early and get it. The next morning I got up at 6am and went outside trying to figure out how to get it down, but realized it fell off during the night. My point is that's I had to figure out how I would get this bird down and thought logically and went back to bed and had a lucid.

Let me add, however, that I think "logical thinking" works as a lucidity aid for many people because to think logically requires a fair amount of awareness. My examples from personal experience may have a bit of a bias; I am trained as a mathematician and so logical thinking is a bit more second-nature for me than it once was. So it would make sense, in this case, that dreams requiring logical thinking would not prompt lucidity for me. In other people, however, who are less acquainted with logic, to exercise this type of mental function requires attention to detail and an awareness that they typically do not display in dreams. It's this awareness--so I hypothesize--that prompts lucidity, not the logical thinking in and of itself.

I'm not entirely sure of this. I've definitely had non-lucid dreams where I was thinking logically. I've taught abstract algebra to DC's without becoming lucid, and I've done some pretty convoluted arithmetic in dreams (which, upon checking in waking life, turned out to be error-free) without being lucid.

To me, lucidity is not about logic, it's about awareness. Computers are pretty good logical machines, but are they self-aware?

It's not about logic, but awareness. Just practicing more logical thinking won't do much for lucid dreaming. You need to practice awareness, mindfulness, in your day to day life. Or at least a combination of logic and awareness.